Can the Cleave and Vital Strike feats be used simultaneously?
Cleave:
As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus)against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat.
Vital Strike
When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together, but do not multiply damage bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), or precision-based damage (such as sneak attack). This bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit (although other damage bonuses are multiplied normally).
Here's my interpretation:
Since Cleave is a standard attack, you can use Vital Strike to double the damage of your attack. But, if that attack is successful, bonus damage is NOT applied to the additional attacks(s).
Does that sound right?
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Cleave indicates that as a standard action you make an attack. This is distinctly different then the use of the "attack action" which, while being a "standard action" is defined more narrowly.
Vital strikes language and the use of the phrase in Cleave indicate to me that they should not be combined.
Cleave is a standard action not an attack action. Attack actions are listed in the Combat section under actions. Cleave isn't listed there so you can't use Vital Strike on Cleave.
A little confusing if you take attack action as the dictionary definition and not the listed attack actions in the rules. I know it caught me the first time I saw this combo come up.
Cleave is a standard action not an attack action. Attack actions are listed in the Combat section under actions. Cleave isn't listed there so you can't use Vital Strike on Cleave.
A little confusing if you take attack action as the dictionary definition and not the listed attack actions in the rules. I know it caught me the first time I saw this combo come up.
Exactly, while a single Attack is both an Attack Action and Standard Action, a Cleave is a particular another type of standard action from the attack action that just happens to be a standard action, just as casting a spell is another type of standard action (in most cases).
Exactly, while a single Attack is both an Attack Action and Standard Action, a Cleave is a particular another type of standard action from the attack action that just happens to be a standard action, just as casting a spell is another type of standard action (in most cases).Cleave is a standard action not an attack action. Attack actions are listed in the Combat section under actions. Cleave isn't listed there so you can't use Vital Strike on Cleave.
A little confusing if you take attack action as the dictionary definition and not the listed attack actions in the rules. I know it caught me the first time I saw this combo come up.
Ah. My confusion arose because I didn't understand the difference between the terms "attack action" and "standard action". I thought they were somewhat synonymous.
I assumed Cleave was an attack action since it involved making an attack roll with a d20 and "attacking" an enemy.
So Cleave is something totally different from an attack-action, more akin to drinking a potion or lighting a torch?
Other than the chart on pg 183 of the Core Rulebook, is there someplace that explains this a little more clearly? Pgs 182 - 186 seem to concentrate on attacking and spell casting and don't really expand too much on oddball actions like Cleave.
Other than the chart on pg 183 of the Core Rulebook, is there someplace that explains this a little more clearly? Pgs 182 - 186 seem to concentrate on attacking and spell casting and don't really expand too much on oddball actions like Cleave.
Not that I have found. The way I look at is the list on page 183 is the list of default standard actions that pretty much anyone can do. Any other actions which are also standard come from special abilities granted by feats, class feature, racial features and such. Since everyone doesn't have access to Cleave for example it wouldn't be on that list. At least that's how I view it.
Also don't forget the chart is for attacks of opportunity. The text later on is what you want even though it's not all that clear.
Other than the chart on pg 183 of the Core Rulebook, is there someplace that explains this a little more clearly? Pgs 182 - 186 seem to concentrate on attacking and spell casting and don't really expand too much on oddball actions like Cleave.Not that I have found. The way I look at is the list on page 183 is the list of default standard actions that pretty much anyone can do. Any other actions which are also standard come from special abilities granted by feats, class feature, racial features and such. Since everyone doesn't have access to Cleave for example it wouldn't be on that list. At least that's how I view it.
Also don't forget the chart is for attacks of opportunity. The text later on is what you want even though it's not all that clear.
My munchkin player is going to have a meltdown when I try to explain this to him. I should probably cast Mage Armor on myself before having that discussion.
My munchkin player is going to have a meltdown when I try to explain this to him. I should probably cast Mage Armor on myself before having that discussion.
An attack action is a form of standard action. Therefore Vital Strike = Standard Action and Cleave = Standard action. Simples!
However, a common houserule that is semi-official is that a standard actioon can be used in Spring Attack as the Attack, so either could be used with that.
This is one of the few things I really dislike with PFRPG - that they didn't clear up the action types and language, but instead seemed to make it worse since so many feats now use this.