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Greetings Paizonians,
I am in need of some clarifications.
The Grab special ability allows the following:
A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Does that mean that the said creature will do "grab damage" with any succesful grapple checks, even those made to pin, move or damage (using another natural attack not used in the "grab")?
The first thing you do when grappling something is "maintain a grapple" which requires a check. If you succeed you deal your grab weapons damage. Go on from there. Moving, pinning, damaging, and tying up are all things you can do freely after you succeed on your maintain roll.
The first thing you do when grappling something is "maintain a grapple" which requires a check. If you succeed you deal your grab weapons damage. Go on from there. Moving, pinning, damaging, and tying up are all things you can do freely after you succeed on your maintain roll.
So if I understand correctly,
Let's say a Giant Octopus (bite +13 (1d8+5 plus poison), 8 tentacles +11 (1d4+2 plus grab)) is grappling mister Tasty.
Given the squid has chosen to "damage" mister Tasty, it could deal "tentacle grab damage" + constrict damage + bite damage ( + poison) on a single succesful grapple check?
Now that is one far cry from 3.5 grappling.
Whenever the creature makes a successful grapple check to deal damage, it deals the damage indicated for the natural weapon that it used to make the improved grab. If the creature also has the constrict ability, it deals damage from the constrict attack in addition to damage dealt by the natural weapon used to grab.
Not quite. You're doing too much damage there. When the giant octopus attacks Mr. Tasty, it goes like this:
Round 1: Make 8 tentacle attacks (probably not close enough to bite yet). Each tentacle attacks normally.
Now the Grab ability lets each of those tentacle hits initiate a free grapple with no AoO. At this point, "Grab" does not allow any extra damage; all we're doing is establishing a hold. Note that in the description of "Grab" it says "A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack." So no damage right now from "Grab".
But the Octopus does have Constrict, and this ability says it does its damage on all successful grapple rolls without excluding the initial roll to establish the grapple. So we roll "Constrict" damage for each grapple we establish.
Note that the Octopus might choose not to Constrict if it so desires, though I think it's generally better to constrict unless it is planning to try to gain the "grappled" condition (I don't think an Octopus cares about such things, but a more intelligent monster might).
Now the Octopus ends his round and on Mr. Tasty's round he can try to escape the grapples using the normal rules for escaping. Let's assume he fails to escape.
Round 2: Some of the tentacles failed to establish a grapple last round, so they can attack again this round exactly like I described above. We won't worry about them.
Whichever tentacles are still holding Mr. Tasty from the first round must now roll to maintain their grapple. Those that are successful can automatically make one of the grapple maneuvers (damage, pin, etc.) and if they does NOT constrict this round they can automatically inflict their "Grab" damage per the description of the "Grab" ability: "If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text)."
So, during the second round, every tentacle that maintains a grapple can choose to do Grab damage or Constrict damage but not both.
Clearly, Constrict is better at dealing damage than Grab because you can use it even on the first round. But I don't think anything has Constrict unless it also has Grab. Note that a creature could not Constrict on an attack unless it also has Grab (without Grab it would have to make a CMB maneuver check - instead of an attack - to establish grapple). So both abilities work very well together: Attack:Grab:Constrict and then next round Maintain:Constrict.
DM_Blake: Are you sure Mr. Tasty doesn't take both Grab damage AND constrict damage? I thought that was the whole point to constrict, to pile on the damage.
Also, an octopus with 8 tentacles can't really grab and squeeze Mr. Tasty 8 times for x8 damage can he? At the very least he would have to take the -20 option. Otherwise, that seems crazy powerful to me!
DM Blake, I do not agree with your assessment.
Round 1: make 8 tentacle attacks and the bite. Each tentacle hit triggers a free grapple attempt from grab and deals damage normally. (edit: what was here wsan't true, just reread constrict. It has been corrected) You deal constrict damage for each successful grab, but will only be able to maintain 1 grapple on future rounds. You can choose to take a -20 to this and future rolls to not gain the grapple condition yourself, but you will still need to spend your standard action to maintain the grapple. This is good because you can hamper the opponent while not taking the penalties yourself, and can be a good choice for those without constrict.
Round 2+: Choice: continue grapple as standard action or realease grapple and attack as normal. If you continue grapple, then you make 1 grapple check. If you succeed, you deal constrict damage and then make a choice to deal damage, pin, or move your opponent. If you choose to deal damage with that grapple check, you can deal damage only with the natural weapon that started the grapple, instead of any like normal. In this case the bite does more so it would choose that. Therefore, on round 2 you make 1 check and deal 1d4+2 constrict and 1d4+2 grapple damage. You do not deal damage for each tentacle, but only one, since you can only maintain 1 grapple.
The only realy reason to use this tactic is to take the -20 and give the opponent penalties on future rounds without penalizing yourself, or to pin the opponent and deal constrict damage. You could also split fire your tentacles at multiple opponents to give all of them the grapple condition while only taking it once yourself. Then you release all those grapples and regrapple them next round.
DM_Blake: Are you sure Mr. Tasty doesn't take both Grab damage AND constrict damage? I thought that was the whole point to constrict, to pile on the damage.
Also, an octopus with 8 tentacles can't really grab and squeeze Mr. Tasty 8 times for x8 damage can he? At the very least he would have to take the -20 option. Otherwise, that seems crazy powerful to me!
Ravingork, my assessment is that he can grab and constrict 8 times with successful roles on the first round (and bite), but he would only deal tentacle and constrict damage 1 time on future rounds, unless he chose to drop and full attack again (which seems insane not to, unless you are confident you can pin him forever).
Ravingork, my assessment is that he can grab and constrict 8 times with successful roles on the first round (and bite), but he would only deal tentacle and constrict damage 1 time on future rounds, unless he chose to drop and full attack again (which seems insane not to, unless you are confident you can pin him forever).
That doesn't make any sense though. If that were the case, why wouldn't it just let go as a free action at the start of round 2 and repeat round 1 all over again for extreme amounts of damage?
I'm of the opinion that it wold go something like this:
Round 1) As a full-round action Mr. Octopus rapes Mr. Squishy with a bite attack and 8 tentacle attacks (dealing damage as normal for each one). On the final tentacle attack, it chooses to also grab a hold of Mr. squishy for further abuse.
Round 2) Mr. Octopus makes a grapple check to maintain the grapple as a standard action. If he succeeds Mr. Squishy takes natural attack damage AND constriction damage.
Alternatively, Mr. Octopus could deal ONLY constriction damage and also move the grapple, pin Mr. Squishy, or tie him up with rope/manacles.
If Mr. Octopus wants, he can take a -20 penalty on his grapple checks (in round 1 or round 2) so as to be treated as not grappled himself. This would allow him to use his bite and remaining 7 tentacles to repeat rounds 1 and 2 on Mr. Squishy's friends.
Ravingork, my assessment is that he can grab and constrict 8 times with successful roles on the first round (and bite), but he would only deal tentacle and constrict damage 1 time on future rounds, unless he chose to drop and full attack again (which seems insane not to, unless you are confident you can pin him forever).That doesn't make any sense though. If that were the case, why wouldn't it just let go as a free action at the start of round 2 and repeat round 1 all over again for extreme amounts of damage?
I'm of the opinion that it wold go something like this:
Round 1) Mr. Octopus rapes Mr. Squishy with a bite attack and 8 tentacles attacks. On the final tentacle attack, it chooses to grab a hold of Mr. squishy for further abuse.
Round 2) Mr. Octopus makes a grapple check to maintain the grapple. If he succeeds Mr. Squishy takes tentacle damage AND constrict damage.
If Mr. Octopus wants, he can take a -20 penalty on his grapple checks (in round 1 or round 2) so as to be treated as not grappled himself. This would allow him to use his remaining tentacles to repeat rounds 1 and 2 on Mr. Squishy's friends.
Actually, releasing the grapple and repeating round 1 on round 2 is what I normally see things with grab do. Few monsters have both grab and constrict (edit:on more than 1 attack), but those that do are pretty nasty. Without constrict, grab is pretty lame.
Me so confused
Of course you deal constrict damage in addition to "grab damage".
That is not the issue here.
All I'm asking is quite simple: do you deal "grab damage" as part of the "damage" grapple free action or as part of "the maintain the hold" standard action?
Because the way I'm reading the Grab special ability description right now, is that you deal "grab damage" every time you make a succesful grapple check. So the Dire Lion wants to pin mister Tasty, Bang! It deals grab damage from his bite. It want to move him, Bang! It deals grab damage again. Now the nice kitty wants to hurt mister Tasty with its claw, Bang! It also deals grab damage from his bite.
To me it's a bit of an overkill
Without constrict, grab is pretty lame.
Grab gives you the ability to slam, bite, hack, slash, whatever - you do a normal attack and deal normal damage - and then you initiate a free grapple.
Without Grab, you cannot make that normal attack or any attack; instead, you have to use a standard action to initiate a grapple. Without Grab, you do no damage on the round you begin your grapple.
Also, Grab makes the grapple non-provoking. Without Grab, you need something else to make your grapple non-provoking or you'll suffer an AoO every time you initiate a grapple.
Further, Grab gives you +4 on all your grapple checks (except escaping a grapple).
Finally, Grab gives you the ability to take a -20 penalty to grapple a victim without becoming grappled in return. Dunno how useful this is; I've never tried it (seems to likely to fail).
So Grab serves three very nice funtions plus one marginal function, all rolled into one handy ability:
1. Free grapple after a successful damaging Melee attack.
2. No AoO from the victim.
3. +4 on your own grapple rolls.
4. Maybe be able to grapple puny things without becoming grappled.
Not bad for just one ability. Far from "lame".
Me so confused
Of course you deal constrict damage in addition to "grab damage".
That is not the issue here.
All I'm asking is quite simple: do you deal "grab damage" as part of the "damage" grapple free action or as part of "the maintain the hold" standard action?
Because the way I'm reading the Grab special ability description right now, is that you deal "grab damage" every time you make a succesful grapple check. So the Dire Lion wants to pin mister Tasty, Bang! It deals grab damage from his bite. It want to move him, Bang! It deals grab damage again. Now the nice kitty wants to hurt mister Tasty with its claw, Bang! It also deals grab damage from his bite.
To me it's a bit of an overkill
Grab does not actually deal damage. It allows you to make a grapple check for free after you hit someone, but restricts your future damage to only the weapon that you hit with on future rounds, instead of any natural attack. Therefore, your Octapus would not be able to deal its 1d8+5+poison bite attack on future rounds, and instead must choose to use its 1d4+2 tentacle.
Of course you deal constrict damage in addition to "grab damage".
Actually, of course you DO NOI deal both.
Grab (Ex)
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
I bolded the relevant parts. You constrict for damage or you grab for damage; you don't do both.
Without constrict, grab is pretty lame.Grab gives you the ability to slam, bite, hack, slash, whatever - you do a normal attack and deal normal damage - and then you initiate a free grapple.
Without Grab, you cannot make that normal attack or any attack; instead, you have to use a standard action to initiate a grapple. Without Grab, you do no damage on the round you begin your grapple.
Also, Grab makes the grapple non-provoking. Without Grab, you need something else to make your grapple non-provoking or you'll suffer an AoO every time you initiate a grapple.
So Grab serves two very nice funtions rolled into one handy ability:
1. Free grapple after a successful damaging Melee attack
2. No AoO from the victim.Not bad for just one ability. Far from "lame".
Yes, but in my experience every creature with grab would rather full attack than maintain a grapple and pin. PCs are not of that oppinion because they have friends. For most monsters not working as a team, grappling is pretty lame, and grab will just give you penalties.
Of course you deal constrict damage in addition to "grab damage".Actually, of course you DO NOI deal both.
Grab (Ex)
If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
I bolded the relevant parts. You constrict for damage or you grab for damage; you don't do both.
Actually, rereading that section, I think grab restricts your choices even more, and would not allow you to pin or move your opponent.
Whichever tentacles are still holding Mr. Tasty from the first round must now roll to maintain their grapple. Those that are successful can automatically make one of the grapple maneuvers (damage, pin, etc.) and if they does NOT constrict this round they can automatically inflict their "Grab" damage per the description of the "Grab" ability: "If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text)."So, during the second round, every tentacle that maintains a grapple can choose to do Grab damage or Constrict damage but not both.
IMO, the text "Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well" means it deals both Grab damage and Constrict damage if it constricts.
Grab does not actually deal damage.
Well, that's correct, except for the fact that the exact opposite is true: Grab DOES deal damage.
It says so right in the Grab ability; I'm not sure why you think it doesn't, unless you're only thinking of the first round. In that case, you're correct, no Grab damage in the round you establish the grapple, but if you maintain that grapple in subsequent rounds, you can automatically damage your victim.
Whichever tentacles are still holding Mr. Tasty from the first round must now roll to maintain their grapple. Those that are successful can automatically make one of the grapple maneuvers (damage, pin, etc.) and if they does NOT constrict this round they can automatically inflict their "Grab" damage per the description of the "Grab" ability: "If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text)."So, during the second round, every tentacle that maintains a grapple can choose to do Grab damage or Constrict damage but not both.
IMO, the text "Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well" means it deals both Grab damage and Constrict damage if it constricts.
No. Reading it your way completely invalidates the bit that says "if the creature does not constrict". If we read it your way, then there is no reason for that bit to even exist in this paragraph.
But it does exist.
So, if you don't constrict, you can Grab to do some damage. On the other hand, if you do constrict, then you can execute a normal "maintain the grapple action" which would be to pin the foe, move the foe, or damage foe. In addition, you can apply your constrict damage as well.
However, if you read it your way, the text "as well" makes even less sense :)
Also, in the text for the Constrict ability, we find "A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage).
I don't think there are any "additional damage" that can be had outside of that given by the Grab ability. I may be wrong on that part though.
Edit: If it makes any difference, the 3.5 version of Constrict was much clearer on this: A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab.
And, 3.5 Improved Grab used the exact same text as PF Grab on that section: A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).
That certainly leads me to believe it should work the same way now as then.
However, if you read it your way, the text "as well" makes even less sense :)
Rmember that when you make a successful grapple action, something happens.
1. You initiate a new grapple.2. You maintain an existing grapple.
2a. You move your enemy.
2b. You pin your enemy.
2c. You damage your enemy.
If you have the Constrict ability, and you are not using your Grab ability. then when you make a successful grapple roll, you will achieve one of those things I just listed, and you can inflict your Constrict damage "as well".
If you have the Constrict ability, and you are not using your Grab ability. then when you make a successful grapple roll, you will achieve one of those things I just listed, and you can inflict your Constrict damage "as well".
I edited my post to add more information while you posted this :)
Actually, rereading that section, I think grab restricts your choices even more, and would not allow you to pin or move your opponent.
Hm. Maybe so.
IMO, the text "Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well" means it deals both Grab damage and Constrict damage if it constricts.
I agree. It is clear to me that the victim takes grab damage AND constrict damage. Just doesn't make sense to me otherwise.
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A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Each successful grapple check the creature makes during successive rounds* automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold OR constriction damage if it has the constrict ability (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
* ¨Each subsequent successful check to maintain the grapple¨ might be more ideal if I have any handle on this sub-system at all...
Basically, the ¨Otherwise... As well¨ wording in the final sentence doesn´t seem to make things clearer, and bringing a simple OR clause into the middle sentence seemed to do the same thing. The first sentence itself seemed superfluous and confusing, since it seemed to refer to the INITIAL Grab/Grapple (after triggering from melee attack), which ALREADY (without this sub-section, only w/ Contrict rules) allows melee damage + constrict damage the first melee attack-Grab grapple. The latter two sentences are referencing functionality (¨...on subsequent rounds...¨) that doesn´t need correspond to the melee attack->Grab triggering mechanism (i.e. they exist to allow Grab monsters to switch to Standard Action Maintain Grapple/Pin while adding Natural Attack damage). AFAICT, this whole mess exists just because Paizo wants that IF a Constrict damage is listed for the creature, that you use that instead of the Natural Attack which Initiated the process... in other words they see the ¨...on subsequent rounds...¨ aspect as OVERLAPPING with Constrict, and they are trying to specify that they don´t stack but are an X OR Y situation.
IMO, the text "Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well" means it deals both Grab damage and Constrict damage if it constricts.
I don´t think so.
¨Otherwise¨ is referring to the opposite case as the second sentence, which is the only way bonus damage in enabled in first place, so ¨otherwise¨ that bonus damage isn´t enabled... Not to mention the second sentence itself is subsumed under the clause ¨If the creature does not constrict...¨.The ´as well´ seems in reference to ´as well as the normal Grapple effects´, not additional damage.
Basically, assuming Constrict damage = Natural Attack damage, I think the intent is such that Grab does Nat. Attack damage on all subsequent Maintain Grapples, while Grab + Constrict do double damage on the first Grab and the same Nat. Attack/Constrict damage on subsequent Maintain Grapple actions.
...Maybe putting the ¨Grab+Constrict¨ rules in the Constrict section would have been simpler and clearer, i.e. spelling out that if you also have Grab you don´t apply it´s bonus damage (for subsequent rounds of maintaining) on top of the Constrict damage. That means each sub-section is either a simple enablement or a simple cancellation, rather than having to deal with Constrict-specific scenarios in the Grab sub-section. Perhaps it could then be made clearer that Grab is in effect granting a ¨mini (not on first round) Constrict¨, if that is indeed the case.
Does that mean that the said creature will do "grab damage" with any succesful grapple checks, even those made to pin, move or damage (using another natural attack not used in the "grab")?
My two cents: I believe that the intent is only to do damage when making a grapple check to do damage, not for pins, moves, etc. But I agree the wording is unclear.
@Quandary: If so, how do you explain the fact that 3.5 rules used the exact same wording for Improved Grab as Paizo does for Grab, while in those rules the Constrict ability clearly adds Grab damage in addition to Constrict damage?
Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage AS WELL (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks made to start and maintain a grapple.
Please note the bold and CAP highlights.
From this reading, it sounds like a creature with the Grab and Constrict special attack can potentially deal x3 damage with one successful grapple check. Note the bold and CAPPED portions.
Using the octopus as an example:
1. It hits with its tentacle and deals tentacle damage. Done.
2. It makes a free grapple check. It succeeds. It deals Constrict damage
3. On the subsequent round, it uses a Standard Action and successfully maintains the grapple. This lets it deal, according to the text above, damage with the tentacle + constrict damage + a grapple action (move, pin, tie up, damage). So it can, with a successful grapple check on the rounds after initializing the grapple, do Tentacle + Constrict + Tentacle damage.
Now if it had Greater Grapple, it can use another action to deal Tentacle + Constrict + Tentacle damage again, since it specifically says under Grab that the damage is dealt after EACH SUCCESSFUL grapple check.
Ouch! Is that correct?
Pathfinder tried to clean up grapple rules...only to make them funky again.
My problem is how do we get the typical "Monster that grabs enemy, flails them around while also pummeling down the enemies around them" type scenario. According to these grapple rules, something huge and powerful like a kraken can only handle one target, two if it has Greater Grapple. That fouls up my image of multiple tentacles grabbing, holding, and squeezing multiple foes in its death grip. At least WotC's grapple rules allowed that possibility. I might switch to theirs.
Also, it says If You Are Grappled, you can attack other opponents within reach at a -2 penalty. Can the one performing the grapple also make attacks on other enemies? Probably not, since it has to use its Standard Action to maintain the grapple, only if it has Greater Grapple it seems. Which is odd.
That sounds like a kraken would need Greater Grapple just to Move Action maintain, take the -20 CMB to remove its grappled condition, and then be able to use its Standard Action to make one attack on another target, while squeezing one other using its Move Action and -20 CMB roll (despite it, you know, having a bunch of other tentacles to whip about that are free to strike others).
I am seriously considering going back to WotC's grapple rules, which were more realistic.
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My two cents: I believe that the intent is only to do damage when making a grapple check to do damage, not for pins, moves, etc. But I agree the wording is unclear.
That is also the way I see it (and the way it was played in 3.5).
The Grab ability gives you a free grapple attempt without provoking AoO and a +4 on combat maneuver checks, more than enough IMHO.
Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage AS WELL (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
I interpret the highlighted line to mean that grab deals no extra damage. The next line is a restriction, implying that they must choose to deal damage with the grapple check and cannot move or pin, and they must use the weapon damage for weapon with grab, instead of any natural attack. There is a lot of abiguity here.
Razz, the -2 to attack while grapplinging is usually for people being grappled, not the grappler. Instead of breaking or reversing the grapple, they can attack. If you also have greater grapple, you can attack with a standard action, but often its more worthwhile to grapple twice.
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Ok, I think people are missing something:
Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature.
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack.
If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage AS WELL (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
Everything in the bolded second paragraph is about what happens when you take the -20 to Hold your opponent. Notice that the description only uses the word HOLD after the bringing up the whole -20 to the check.
Hold is like a sub-condition to grapple and it has different rules that are explained in that section.
Hold
- does not gain the grappled condition (and therefore does not take a standard action to maintain) and must succeed on a grapple check at -20 to perform.
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to HOLD the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
- does not deal any grapple damage for succeeding but constrict damage still applies.
A successful HOLD does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack.
Also, when a creature with constrict makes a successful grapple check it deals it's listed constrict damage. It can then perform any of the normal grapple actions (move, damage, pin, etc...). If it decides to deal damage, that damage is on top of what was already delivered by constrict.
Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage AS WELL (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
I interpret the highlighted line to mean that grab deals no extra damage. The next line is a restriction, implying that they must choose to deal damage with the grapple check and cannot move or pin, and they must use the weapon damage for weapon with grab, instead of any natural attack. There is a lot of abiguity here.
Razz, the -2 to attack while grapplinging is usually for people being grappled, not the grappler. Instead of breaking or reversing the grapple, they can attack. If you also have greater grapple, you can attack with a standard action, but often its more worthwhile to grapple twice.
Read the italics next to the bold. It specifically says a Grab does deal damage, using the attack that established the grab, IF the creature does not have the Constrict ability. If it does, it can Constrict AND deals damage of the attack that initiated the Grab, as stated in the very last sentence.
I know the -2 attack penalty is for the one being grappled, though I wish the grappler can, instead, make a full attack. I think it's silly to think, say, a six-limbed creature to grab a foe with one limb, and not be able to pummel the opponent with the other 5 while it is grabbing it. Rather unrealistic, WotC's grapple rules allowed that at least.
Ok, I think people are missing something:
<snip>
I see what you mean. So, upon initiating the grab AND for maintaining it, it has to initially make that -20 CMB check. If it succeeds then it holds, is not grappled, so doesn't need to maintain, and only deals damage if it has constrict.
This means, it could pummel other foes while holding (and/or constricting) the one it grabbed, even using a full attack since it need not make a Standard or Move Action to maintain a grapple. What's fascinating is, it doesn't suffer -20 to CMD for the opponent to escape, also much more realistic. And makes such monsters deadly indeed, as they should be!
I think you're right on the money with that, and that ruling makes much more SENSE than the way I originally assumed.
@Quandary: If so, how do you explain the fact that 3.5 rules used the exact same wording for Improved Grab as Paizo does for Grab, while in those rules the Constrict ability clearly adds Grab damage in addition to Constrict damage?
Basically, assuming Constrict damage = Natural Attack damage, I think the intent is such that Grab does Nat. Attack damage on all subsequent Maintain Grapples, while Grab + Constrict do double damage on the first Grab and the same Nat. Attack/Constrict damage on subsequent Maintain Grapple actions.
Constrict
A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab.
¨damage dealt by the weapon used to grab¨ I read as the damage from the normal melee attack which triggered grab, not a special ¨bonus grab damage¨ which stacks with Constrict on following rounds... Which is consistent with what I wrote earlier. If the intent was that they stack, I don`t know why there would be a line (in both 3.5 and PRPG) reading , i.e. only applying the ongoing bonus damage when Constrict is not in play.
The reading that the -20 to hold and not be grappled¨ option is what the ¨ is referencing certainly does have some logic, though as with the Grapple rules in general, it`s nearly impossible to say one way or the other with certainty given the mixture of plain English with ¨rules terms¨ (or sub-conditions in this case) which are never directly highlighted... In this case, it`s not clear whether to associate the ¨ to the previous sentence or to the subsequent ones (in which case it seems superfluous, i.e. should be cut out if the other specific meaning isn`t intented). The last sentence seems superfluous in any case, so the empty line from deleting it could possibly used to insert a paragraph break between these sections to make clear that the ¨ pertains to the -20 option and not the following subsection.
¨damage dealt by the weapon used to grab¨ I read as the damage from the normal melee attack which triggered grab, not a special ¨bonus grab damage¨ which stacks with Constrict on following rounds... Which is consistent with what I wrote earlier.Constrict
A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab.
Except that if it means "the damage from the normal melee attack" there is no reason to specify "if the creature also has the improved grab ability", since you get constriction damage in addition to the initial melee attack also without having improved grab.
I'm still hoping to get some clarification on whether or not you deal grab AND constrict damage at the same time.
I'm still hoping to get some clarification on whether or not you deal grab AND constrict damage at the same time.
I answered that in your other thread.
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So, hit with tentacle, do tentacle damage, Grab lets you start a grapple.
Choose:
A) Grapple normally. Make normal grapple check. Deal Constrict damage.
A2) On subsequent rounds: Can choose to move/damage/pin/tie-up after maintaining the grapple and applying Constrict damage.
or
B) Hold. Make grapple check at -20 CMB. No grappled condition. Deal Constrict damage.
B2) On subsequent rounds, deal Constrict+Tentacle damage after a successful grapple check (still at -20). Other limbs/attacks/actions as normal.
Sound correct? (Sorry, this thread is hard to follow)
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So, hit with tentacle, do tentacle damage, Grab lets you start a grapple.
Choose:
A) Grapple normally. Make normal grapple check. Deal Constrict damage.
A2) On subsequent rounds: Can choose to move/damage/pin/tie-up after maintaining the grapple and applying Constrict damage.or
B) Hold. Make grapple check at -20 CMB. No grappled condition. Deal Constrict damage.
B2) On subsequent rounds, deal Constrict+Tentacle damage after a successful grapple check (still at -20). Other limbs/attacks/actions as normal.Sound correct? (Sorry, this thread is hard to follow)
For option B you make the grapple check to restrain(hold them), and this automatically gives you the options of doing tentacle damage, moving them, pin, or tie up per A2.
In short B1 and B2 are combined.
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Giant octopus has 8 tentacle attacks.
First attack hits Mr Tasty for 1d4+2 damage.
Assuming Mr Tasty is medium sized or smaller (Vs the octopus's large size) then the octopus's Grab kicks in.
At this point (before any grapple attempt is rolled) it chooses whether to go for a 'normal' (but easy to do) grapple (which will give both Mr Tasty and the octopus the grappled condition, as per the normal grapple rules), or the superior (but harder to do) option of using just its tentacle to hold Mr Tasty (in which Mr Tasty has the grappled condition, the octopus does not).
The octopus has Constrict, so every time it makes a successful grapple check it does 1d4+2 damage, regardless of what else is going on with that grapple check.
If the octopus goes for a normal grapple and succeeds, then both it and Mr Tasty have the grappled condition. The octopus's further 7 tentacle attacks (and it's beak) are at -2 to hit, it's at -4 Dexterity, it cannot move, etc., etc... What it can do is, on subsequent rounds, all the normal stuff a maintained grapple check lets you do (damage, move, pin, etc.) - scoring Constrict damage no matter which option it takes, because that's what Constrict does. This is a great option if Mr Tasty is alone (pin him + damage, move underwater with him + damage, etc.).
If the octopus goes for the tentacle only grapple (at -20 to the attempt) and succeeds, then Mr Tasty is grappled, but the octopus is not. In this case it can keep attacking at full bonus, has no penalty to Dexterity, can still move as it wishes, etc., etc.. On the other hand, its grapple-related options in regards to Mr Tasty are limited - it can maintain the grapple for tentacle damage (plus the usual extra Constrict damage)... and that's it. It can't use just one tentacle to pin (for example) Mr Tasty - the tentacle only option it chose doesn't allow for that.
In other words, all the text under the Grab (Ex): listing in the Bestiary, after 'The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or...' is refering only to the 'grabbing body part only / -20' option, not to normal grapples it may make (which use the normal grapple rules).
So, it can hit Mr Tasty with its first attack for 1d4+2 damage, then initiate a normal grapple (which is likely to succeed) for 1d4+2 Constrict damage. Next round it's using the normal grapple rules - it maintains the grapple (for 1d4+2 Constrict damage) and chooses to attack Mr Tasty with its beak as well (for 1d8+5 bite plus poison damage). It can only inflict the damage from one natural attack, because that's how normal grapples work.
Or...
It can hit Mr Tasty with its first attack for 1d4+2 damage, then try to initiate a tentacle only grapple (which is likely to fail). If it happens to succeed then Mr Tasty takes 1d4+2 Constrict damage, and is grappled... if it doesn't suceed, the octopus doesn't really care - it's lost nothing in the attempt, and still has 7 more tentacle attacks (and a bite) with which to blat Mr Tasty and his friends. In essence, it's an option for a potentially nice bonus (Constrict damage and grappling for no penalties) on the octopus's part.
Mr. Octopus should attack, grab, constrict, let go, repeat with his other 7 tentacles.
That's 16d4+32 damage if all attacks hit and all checks succeed.
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Mr. Octopus should attack, grab, constrict, let go, repeat with his other 7 tentacles.
He doesn't really have that option...
Mr Octopus (let's call him Mr O) attacks and hits Mr Tasty (Mr T... fool!) with his first tentacle attack. This triggers his Grab ability. If he chooses to use the free grapple check to initiate a normal grapple, then he's into normal grapple rules - i.e. he's done for the round. In later rounds Mr O can maintain his normal grapple (for Constrict damage) and attack others instead of Mr T, with one of his natural attacks (as part of the 'maintain a grapple standard action'), but he's really limiting himself by doing so. He is, however, making sure that Mr T isn't going anywhere.
Or...
Mr O attacks and hits Mr T with his first tentacle attack. This triggers his Grab ability. If he chooses to use the free grapple check to initiate a tentacle only grapple, then he's not even slowing down - i.e. he's still got all the rest of his attacks left. If he happens to actually succeed in grappling Mr T, even at the -20 penalty, then there's no advantage to him dropping the guy - 'cos he can try to maintain the tentacle only grapple next turn as that tentacle's attack and gets the usual +5 bonus, to help mitigate the -20 (so he's still rolling his grapple CMB at -15, but it's a bit easier), and still make all the rest of his attacks normally.
Of course, he could be canny and make the first 7 tentacle attacks tentacle only grabs (if he hits), just in case they happen to succeed, then go all out with his final 8th tentacle attack (if it hits) and use the free grapple check from that one as a full normal grapple.
Oh... and if he does maintain a tentacle only grapple successfully in later rounds he does 1d4+2 (from the grapple check, due to Constrict) and 1d4+2 (from the tentacle's damage)... it's all he can do when he's only using the one tentacle to hold Mr T.
You are mixing it up with v3.5 rules which ended your attack routine the moment you used improved grab.
In Pathfinder, grab allows him to grapple FOR FREE. The grapple condition does NOT effect a creature's actions. He can continue with his full attack even after the grapple (albeit at a -2 penalty to hit). Alternatively, he can let go of his target as a free action, and resume his full attack without penalty.
Since the developers have clarified that constriction applies even on the opening check made to make the grab, he can literally attack, deal damage, attempt a free grapple, constrict upon a successful grab for MORE damage, let go as a free action, and resume his full attack with his other tentacles WITHOUT PENALTY (repeating the process until he uses all his tentacles).
You are mixing it up with v3.5 rules which ended your attack routine the moment you used improved grab.
In Pathfinder, grab allows him to grapple FOR FREE. The grapple condition does NOT effect a creature's actions. He can continue with his full attack even after the grapple (albeit at a -2 penalty to hit). Alternatively, he can let go of his target as a free action, and resume his full attack without penalty.
Since the developers have clarified that constriction applies even on the opening check made to make the grab, he can literally attack, deal damage, attempt a free grapple, constrict upon a successful grab for MORE damage, let go as a free action, and resume his full attack with his other tentacles WITHOUT PENALTY (repeating the process until he uses all his tentacles).
I think the RAI was for grab to initiate a grapple not get a free grapple check for every continuing attack, but I can't really prove it. My view on how unbalancing it would be is all I have to go on. I will hold off until after the RPG Superstar Voting until I remind Paizo of the articles that are supposed to explain rules issues in more detail.
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In Pathfinder, grab allows him to grapple FOR FREE. The grapple condition does NOT effect a creature's actions. He can continue with his full attack even after the grapple (albeit at a -2 penalty to hit). Alternatively, he can let go of his target as a free action, and resume his full attack without penalty.
You know what, I think you're right... The normal grapple text does state that you (if you're the one doing the grappling) can release it as a free action, and remove the grappled condition from both of you...
So each tentacle hit (for 1d4+2) Mr O could initiate a normal grapple (for 1d4+2 Constrict damage if the check works), release it as a free action (in the middle of his attack routine), then attack with the next tentacle without suffering penalties for the grappled condition. 16d4+32 possible damage indeed! Go Mr O! Even better, he can do that for 7 attacks, and not release the 8th attack, and Mr T still ends up grappled at the end of the turn...
In Pathfinder, grab allows him to grapple FOR FREE. The grapple condition does NOT effect a creature's actions. He can continue with his full attack even after the grapple (albeit at a -2 penalty to hit). Alternatively, he can let go of his target as a free action, and resume his full attack without penalty.You know what, I think you're right... The normal grapple text does state that you (if you're the one doing the grappling) can release it as a free action, and remove the grappled condition from both of you...
So each tentacle hit (for 1d4+2) Mr O could initiate a normal grapple (for 1d4+2 Constrict damage if the check works), release it as a free action (in the middle of his attack routine), then attack with the next tentacle without suffering penalties for the grappled condition. 16d4+32 possible damage indeed! Go Mr O! Even better, he can do that for 7 attacks, and not release the 8th attack, and Mr T still ends up grappled at the end of the turn...
Good point. I never thought about doing it this way.
Nevermind 3.5 - Here's the pathfinder rule:
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
Using one limb and making a grapple in place of a melee attack as part of a full attack action is not grappling normally.
Conducting the grapple normally means a standard action using all it's limbs. If the thing had a sword in it's hand it'd get a -4 to hit, per the rule on that, but it still needs to use that limb and take a standard action to grapple normally. So, yea, it can start a grapple as a free action, but to then grapple normally, the remainder of the full attack converts to a standard action using all the thing's limbs. If it does not wish to grapple normally, if it only wants to use only one limb so has the rest free to continue a full attack action, then you look to the rest of the rule.
Proff was right the first time - If it wants to grapple in place of a melee attack using just one of it's limbs, so gets 8 in a full attack, it can do it, but it's got a -20 penalty to it's CMB for each try.
Nevermind 3.5 - Here's the pathfinder rule:
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
Using one limb and making a grapple in place of a melee attack as part of a full attack action is not grappling normally.
Conducting the grapple normally means a standard action using all it's limbs. If the thing had a sword in it's hand it'd get a -4 to hit, per the rule on that, but it still needs to use that limb and take a standard action to grapple normally. So, yea, it can start a grapple as a free action, but to then grapple normally, the remainder of the full attack converts to a standard action using all the thing's limbs. If it does not wish to grapple normally, if it only wants to use only one limb so has the rest free to continue a full attack action, then you look to the rest of the rule.
Proff was right the first time - If it wants to grapple in place of a melee attack using just one of it's limbs, so gets 8 in a full attack, it can do it, but it's got a -20 penalty to it's CMB for each try.
None of what you quoted factors into it. The -20 option only applies when Mr. O wants to maintain the grapple (such as to drag away his dinner), but doesn't want to be treated as grappled himself.
Also, you keep talking about grappling normally. Mr. O isn't doing that. He's making good use of his grab ability, which changes the way grappling is initiated.
My strategy is perfectly valid within the rules as written. You haven't disproved anything.
I'll highlight the relevant part:
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent
It's not for maintaing the grapple, it's when using only one body part to conduct the grapple -- such as one tenticle in order to have the others free for other attacks.
I'll highlight the relevant part:
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent
It's not for maintaing the grapple, it's when using only one body part to conduct the grapple -- such as one tenticle in order to have the others free for other attacks.
Except all of the other tentacles ARE free AT THE TIME OF THE ATTACKS, because when he makes the attacks, he's no longer grappling.
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I think it's the 'conduct the grapple normally' part which is confusing, but after re-checking the normal grapple text it's clear that it takes a standard action to either a) initiate the grapple with a grapple check, or b) maintain the grapple with a grapple check in later rounds. The standard action to initiate the grapple is replaced in the use of the Grab ability by a free grapple check on a successful hit with the related attack, and the grappler can drop the grapple as a free action (so is not spending standard actions to maintain it in later rounds). Constrict damage triggers on 'a successful grapple check', no matter where that check came from, so RD's 'successful attack-free grapple check-constrict damage-free action to drop the grapple' combo is perfectly legal, RAW (and I've no reason to believe it's not RAI either - it's not like Mr O is doing much in the way of base damage anyway).