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I'm just asking because I've seen the question posed more than once, but haven't seen any real answers...
If I show up at a table with an Asmodean Paladin is there any reason that I wouldn't be allowed to play with that character?
The Guide to Organized Play states, "You may choose to worship an evil god, but keep in mind that your alignment has to be within one step of your god’s alignment." Perhaps some text was omitted, but by the text in the Guide, this restriction is not limited to just clerics.
As Asmodeus is Lawful Evil, and paladins must be Lawful Good, there's no way a paladin can worship Asmodeus (and retain his paladinhood), since that is a difference of 2 steps...
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I believe the question is being posed because the core rulebook doesn't state that a paladin's god must be lawful and/or good while he does. On the other hand, the paladin is required "to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve." An Evil god is not virtuous no matter how far you stretch the definition of virtue. Also, a Paladin may only associate with evil characters in the most extreme circumstances, and even then they need an Atonement from time to time. If your god is Evil, you associate with something wholly evil every second of every day and how is your god going to allow you to atone for worshiping him?
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Normally, I would say yes, for a few reasons.
1. Paladins have to be Lawful Good, but are not (by RAW) required to be the same or close to their deity's alignment. This has the opportunity for a great amount of cool roleplay (like Paladins of Gorum, Calistria, or even Asmodeus) if the player can stay LG.
2. An official Paizo source (one of the Pathfinder APs) specifically called out that Asmodeus *does* have Paladins. Considering he is the God of Lies and Deceit, I would expect nothing less then for him to have tricked some paladins into doing works for him.
Those rules aside, Society play has one sentence that does make Paladins of Asmodeus impossible, which was pointed out above.
You may choose to worship an evil god, but keep in mind that your alignment has to be within one step of your god's alignment.
This is a special rule for Society Play that does not normally exist in Core. This means that Paladins, in Society Play, may only worship LG, LN, or NG gods and goddesses.
Done and done.
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2. An official Paizo source (one of the Pathfinder APs) specifically called out that Asmodeus *does* have Paladins. Considering he is the God of Lies and Deceit, I would expect nothing less then for him to have tricked some paladins into doing works for him.
Can you reference that? Not that I'm doubting you, I actually think it sounds like good reading.
The answer you are looking for depends on the game.
Organized Play rules: No.
Rules as written campaign: Yes.
Homebrew: Maybe, but not likely.
Check with the gamemaster in advance, or if it is a pick up game, be ready with an alternative.
The discussions boil down to this: while the rules do not forbid a paladin from being sponsored by an evil god, many find it highly improbable an evil god would sponsor a paladin. Also, it seems improbable that a paladin could follow the tenants of an evil god for long before falling. That having been said, there was a Paizo publication that included a paladin of Asmodeus, but James Jacobs has said on the message boards that he would likely have stopped that from going to press had he noticed it at the time.
Hope that helps!
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Chaotic Evil is more than one step away from Lawful. Anti-Paladins are more in the demonic territory.I am fairly certain that Asmodeus doesn't have paladins.Oh, he does -- they just have an extra "Anti-" in front of them... ;-)
I wasn't thinking specifically of the anti-paladins as described in the APG (which *do* have a CE alignment requirement), but more along the lines of the blackguards from 3.5, and the tradition of any paladin falling from grace being considered an "anti-paladin"...
The details on Asmodeus and his paladins are in Council of Thieves part 5: Mother of Flies on pages 65-66.
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Can you reference that? Not that I'm doubting you, I actually think it sounds like good reading.2. An official Paizo source (one of the Pathfinder APs) specifically called out that Asmodeus *does* have Paladins. Considering he is the God of Lies and Deceit, I would expect nothing less then for him to have tricked some paladins into doing works for him.
It starts on page 65 of Pathfinder #29 in the Asmodeus article. Titled "Military Orders & Paladins".
That still has not been fixed as of 3.0, so I hope Josh reads this before 3.1 is ready to go so that it can be taken care of.
Oh look, a ninja! lol
Mammon, I am pretty sure Josh has said before that what is in the Guide is what counts unless it is something major. In that case, he would either make a sticky about it or at least post the official change in the latest FAQ thread. Generally when he says something should be changed or needs to be fixed, he is referring to doing that with the next version of the Guide and not doing it on the spot.
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I know conceptual objects of worship aren't allowed, but a better route to go with this may be to ask if you may be a Paladin of the Godclaw (see: http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Order_of_the_God_Claw). This more or less requires you to be a Hellknight, but it's better than nothing.
EDIT: Somehow I put "are allowed" instead of "aren't". Apologies.
It starts on page 65 of Pathfinder #29 in the Asmodeus article. Titled "Military Orders & Paladins".Can you reference that? Not that I'm doubting you, I actually think it sounds like good reading.2. An official Paizo source (one of the Pathfinder APs) specifically called out that Asmodeus *does* have Paladins. Considering he is the God of Lies and Deceit, I would expect nothing less then for him to have tricked some paladins into doing works for him.
As James stated he would have killed the thing if it had been sense he didn't think it was possible , did not support it and has said before CG gods can't have paladins. The I place it in a editing error really.
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Also, a Paladin may only associate with evil characters in the most extreme circumstances, and even then they need an Atonement from time to time.
Does this mean that in the adventure paths that have Seelah teamed up with Seltyiel, that she is having to atone often? This bugged me.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters
or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code.
Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally
with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes
to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement
spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and
should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is
doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only
henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good
While.....
Today, she (Seelah) sees the good in everyone, and hopes that by leading by example, she can help other wayward souls (such as Seltyiel) find their way.
Does the following explain the Seelah/Seltyiel team up?
Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally
with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes
to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement
spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and
should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is
doing more harm than good.
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I'm just asking because I've seen the question posed more than once, but haven't seen any real answers...
If I show up at a table with an Asmodean Paladin is there any reason that I wouldn't be allowed to play with that character?
Why not? Have fun and don't be a jerk about it. Everyone wins.
A paladin doesn't have to follow any specific god. So you could easily make a lawful good paladin who grew up in rural Cheliax (or a vassal state) where the Church of Asmodeus performed a vital role in maintaining law, order, and (most importantly) stability in the local community, and Hellknight patrols protected the village from bandits, monsters, or worse. Having grown up in a generation where worship of Asmodeus was an accepted part of life that brought much-needed peace and stability after generations of civil war, and having grown up with Asmodeus as a family faith, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to say your paladin offers prayers and such to Asmodeus. Play a young idealist (or a cynical old man), emphasize the anti-demon, anti-chaos, pro-law & order end of things and distance yourself from/work to minimize the more evil aspects.
I think it would be fun to play, especially in the long term as you gradually confront the darker aspects of the faith that you've grown up with.
Just make sure everyone is having fun and don't be a drama queen about it. The end.
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That still has not been fixed as of 3.0, so I hope Josh reads this before 3.1 is ready to go so that it can be taken care of.I would hope that Josh strongly considers that a paladin is supposed to be a beacon of law and good -- I can't really see how a paladin worshiping Asmodeus would have any powers/spellcasting available to him...
- "... paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve."
- Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin can call out to the
powers of good...
- Spells -- forget about casting anything with the [good] descriptor (how could Asmodeus even grant the spell???)
- "Divine Bond (Sp): [...] The first type of bond allows the paladin to enhance her weapon as a standard action by calling upon the aid of a
celestial spirit ...
- "Aura of Faith (Su): At 14th level, a paladin’s weapons are treated as good-aligned for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction."
Can you really justify that any of these would work if your source of power is a diabolic deity???
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I'm just asking because I've seen the question posed more than once, but haven't seen any real answers...
If I show up at a table with an Asmodean Paladin is there any reason that I wouldn't be allowed to play with that character?
Why not? Have fun and don't be a jerk about it. Everyone wins.
A paladin doesn't have to follow any specific god. So you could easily make a lawful good paladin who grew up in rural Cheliax (or a vassal state) where the Church of Asmodeus performed a vital role in maintaining law, order, and (most importantly) stability in the local community, and Hellknight patrols protected the village from bandits, monsters, or worse. Having grown up in a generation where worship of Asmodeus was an accepted part of life that brought much-needed peace and stability after generations of civil war, and having grown up with Asmodeus as a family faith, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to say your paladin offers prayers and such to Asmodeus. Play a young idealist (or a cynical old man), emphasize the anti-demon, anti-chaos, pro-law & order end of things and distance yourself from/work to minimize the more evil aspects.
I think it would be fun to play, especially in the long term as you gradually confront the darker aspects of the faith that you've grown up with.
Just make sure everyone is having fun and don't be a drama queen about it. The end.
I agree with this. And Pages 65-66 Explain the Paladins of Asmodeus in detail. Its a cool idea.
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As James stated he would have killed the thing if it had been sense he didn't think it was possible , did not support it and has said before CG gods can't have paladins. The I place it in a editing error really.It starts on page 65 of Pathfinder #29 in the Asmodeus article. Titled "Military Orders & Paladins".Can you reference that? Not that I'm doubting you, I actually think it sounds like good reading.2. An official Paizo source (one of the Pathfinder APs) specifically called out that Asmodeus *does* have Paladins. Considering he is the God of Lies and Deceit, I would expect nothing less then for him to have tricked some paladins into doing works for him.
That really makes the most sense. Even after reading that bit, it just doesn't sit right with me.
As James stated he would have killed the thing if it had been sense he didn't think it was possible , did not support it and has said before CG gods can't have paladins. The I place it in a editing error really.Er... what?
James has stated that should never have saw print, and it just slipped by and he was ok with no one ever bringing it up again as he did not support it and LG paladins of a LE god were only sightly better for the game the LE paladins which he stated was not good for the game.
So yes it was an editing mistake nothing more.
As James stated he would have killed the thing if it had been sense he didn't think it was possible , did not support it and has said before CG gods can't have paladins. The I place it in a editing error really.Er... what?James has stated that should never have saw print, and it just slipped by and he was ok with no one ever bringing it up again as he did not support it and LG paladins of a LE god were only sightly better for the game the LE paladins which he stated was not good for the game.
So yes it was an editing mistake nothing more.
Regardless of whether it was an editing mistake or not, until clarification is provided with regards to its legality in PFS organized play, players should assume that RAW from the Core Rulebook, as that's the core assumption and the specifics of the Asmodeus article are not. Since nothing in the paladin class description requires that a paladin worship a deity of any specific alignment (but rather an alignment for themselves), this is a gray area that should be clarified by Josh. Let's not start making blanket assertions of what was and wasn't intended in the published material, in any case, as it doesn't matter in this specific situation.
As pointed to upthread paladins in PFS must be one step.
The whole paladin of Asmodeus thing is definitely a gray area for PFS play, at least. While the Additional Resources section of the PFS Guide does not list the info on pages 65-66 of Pathfinder #29 as legal for play, that info is not crunch, but is rather fluff, and does not need to be specifically listed as legal or not. The easiest way for Josh to fix this would be to make it official in the Guide and apply the cleric rule of "one step only" to the paladin, if the paladin worships a specific deity.
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Stability and peace are not good enough. Nazi Germany was stable and peaceful for a good deal of it's existence... Stalinist Russia was stable, the Khmer Rouge enforced a ruthless style of stability.. All of these undoubtedly lawful evil regimes. There is no way a Paladin could serve any of these and retain his status.
WHOOP! WHOOP! Godwin's Law alert!
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Why does there always need to be balance?
Paladins are paragons of good and serve lawful or good deities (LG or LN commonly). If one manages to serve an evil deity and keep his paladin status, fine!
The blackguard prc was a great way to show a fighter or fallen paladin who is devoted to evil. Why not create a paladin who has lost his abilities and taken levels in fighter? So you do not have all those cool powers, but the roleplaying opportunities would be fantastic.
This issue of paladins serving evil deities has always seemed to come from the min/max or power-gamer crowd who want a powerful class but can somehow by-pass the restrictions. Unfortunately, you cannot by-pass the restrictions of the paladin class.
May be there is no equivalent to the paladin amongst the forces of evil. Get over it. If you use the antipaladin, well there is and it makes a good enough nemesis.
A GM should really set some strong boundaries for a player who wants to play a paladin of an evil god. There is a lot of room for some roleplaying challenges and it may be a tough gig to hold. Especially if the paladin has to work with the evil clerics and other faithful of that church.
The GM should not give the player a free ride or abuse the powers of the class just because its all cool on paper. Really, a cleric can also make an impressive martial servant of an evil god as well.
Turn off RANT!
Sigh this has been done to death, ask josh put a FAQ flag on it but by the PFS guide they need to be one step and PF 29 is not on the allowed list
But if yall want LN and LE paladins in your game cool they are not however allowed in PFS as of yet.
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From the PFSRD:
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
Are you seriously going to contend that the rules of a Paladin's diety should be less strict than those of his mortal henchmen?
If your deity is evil and you actively worship him, over an extended period of time, are you not violating the code?
Is this not broken? How can a paladin worship Asmodeus and still retain his paladin status?
Asmodeus is an evil deity... "a greater evil." How does a paladin then worship this greater evil and serve in it's church? In the vain hope of turning the tide towards good?
He is probably served by antipaladins now anyways!
While it sounds like a cool concept, the idea of paladins serving evil gods is something that may appeal to 13-year-olds who play this game. Yes, they may serve the lawful aspect of the deity, but still, come on, the god is evil.
Unless you have a Bubble-Boy Paladin who does not get out much and is ignorant to his deity being evil?
If your deity is evil and you actively worship him, over an extended period of time, are you not violating the code?
We had many long threads over this, James has said the article slipped though and he would have made sure it was never printed if he has saw it.
And I agree it auto brakes his code, Congrats ya made a non LG paladin as he can never fall, ever. That is another thing we had long threads over.
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We had many long threads over this, James has said the article slipped though and he would have made sure it was never printed if he has saw it.
And I agree it auto brakes his code, Congrats ya made a non LG paladin as he can never fall, ever. That is another thing we had long threads over.
Oh, I've read previous threads. This has been done to death. I agree. My question was rhetorical and I did not need clarification. I just wish people read the code of conduct, noted the alignment of the god and put 1+1 together.
Sigh this has been done to death, ask josh put a FAQ flag on it but by the PFS guide they need to be one step and PF 29 is not on the allowed list
But if yall want LN and LE paladins in your game cool they are not however allowed in PFS as of yet.
Apologies, I should have read the category in which the thread was entered. I missed the PFS part entirely. That's what happens when you respond to a thread that comes up on the front page ticker.
I have deleted my previous post.
*lots and lots of stuff*
The only problem with all of that is that in other threads both James and Josh have officially stated that a cleric must be within one step, period, no matter the axis. So a cleric of Asmodeus must be either LE, LN, or NE.
We had many long threads over this, James has said the article slipped though and he would have made sure it was never printed if he has saw it.And I agree it auto brakes his code, Congrats ya made a non LG paladin as he can never fall, ever. That is another thing we had long threads over.
And seeker, even if a paladin is allowed to follow an evil deity, whether knowingly or unknowingly, they will eventually become either corrupted or have to quit before becoming corrupted. No matter what other people were saying in other threads about how it would work in their games.
The only problem with all of that is that in other threads both James and Josh have officially stated that a cleric must be within one step, period, no matter the axis. So a cleric of Asmodeus must be either LE, LN, or NE.
Very true and I defer to that. Please see my previous post. I responded to the thread via the ticker and did not see that it was PFS. To avoid further confusion, I have deleted the post.
Very true and I defer to that. Please see my previous post. I responded to the thread via the ticker and did not see that it was PFS. To avoid further confusion, I have deleted the post.
Not a problem. :)
But I am talking about what has been said in general for the Pathfinder rules and not just for PFS. It was posted in another very long paladin thread in the non-PFS section of the forums.
As James stated he would have killed the thing if it had been sense he didn't think it was possible , did not support it and has said before CG gods can't have paladins. The I place it in a editing error really.Er... what?
James said it would not have made it to print if he had caught it, but since it did make it to print he can accept it.
James said it would not have made it to print if he had caught it, but since it did make it to print he can accept it.As James stated he would have killed the thing if it had been sense he didn't think it was possible , did not support it and has said before CG gods can't have paladins. The I place it in a editing error really.Er... what?
I recall he said he was good with folks not bring it up, not that he accepted it as he said paladins of EVIL gods are not good for the game. He stated them as only slightly less good bad for the game then evil paladin and said he did not support them.
None of this effect PFS which by the guide book do not allow them anyhow
Not a problem. :)
But I am talking about what has been said in general for the Pathfinder rules and not just for PFS. It was posted in another very long paladin thread in the non-PFS section of the forums.
Lol, I cannot backpedal any more than I have. Like I said, I have deleted the post to avoid confusion. This very topic came up in a discussion I was having with a friend, which is why I made my thoughts known in the first place; I wasn't aware of the longer discussions that have taken place. In any case though, my thoughts remain the same, but my opinions on the matter do not belong on this thread.