An assassin in white murders the King of Alethkar, an act commissioned by the enigmatic Parshendi tribesmen of the east. In response the Alethi armies meet those of the Parshendi in battle on the Shattered Plains, a vast landscape of plateaus separated by dark chasms. Progress is slow and gruelling, and Dalinar, the murdered king's brother, adopts a siege strategy to wear down the enemy through attrition.
Meanwhile, Kaladin, a former soldier disgraced and sold into slavery, arrives on the Shattered Plains as a bridgeman, a role designed to help carry and place the immense mobile bridges which carry the Alethi army into battle. Mistreated by his masters, Kaladin begins to burn with the need for freedom and vengeance, and finds like-minded men amongst his fellows.
In distant Kharbranth a woman named Shallan seeks a missing princess, hoping to become her protege and study under the most famous heretic on all of Roshar. But Shallan's quest disguises another, less honourable cause.
These three stories become entwined with the ancient legends of the Knights Radiant and the Voidbringers they fought against. The world of Roshar and the wider cosmere beyond lie in danger from an ancient force, and the key to understanding the nature of that threat lies with a man who can walk amongst the worlds...
There's no faulting the ambition of this novel. The publisher and the author have set out their stall quite clearly: they want the ten-volume Stormlight Archive series to be the next dominant epic fantasy series, replacing the soon-to-finish Wheel of Time sequence. The publishing marketing spiel has cranked up to support this effort, drawing comparisons with Tolkien and Frank Herbert which are more than slightly hyperbolic. Yet The Way of Kings manages to weather these pronouncements to stand on its own merits as one of the best epic fantasy releases of this year.
The Way of Kings is Brandon Sanderson's finest novel to date, showing a remarkable and satisfying maturing and evolution of his craft. Sanderson is a student of epic fantasy who's made it his business to test the limits of the subgenre and take a mass audience with him, and The Way of Kings raises this skill to new heights. Roshar isn't another generic fantasyland, but a dangerous and alien world wracked by devastating tempests which the normal business of humanity takes place in the lulls between the storms. In his previous books Sanderson has used his worlds as effective background locations, but in The Way of Kings the world itself comes to life satisfyingly, becoming a vivid location which the reader ends up wanting to know more about.
Characterisation is an area where Sanderson takes a significant step forward in quality. His characters in The Way of Kings are considerably more flawed and more real than those in Mistborn or Elantris, but he also avoids turning them into grim, grey ciphers. These characters are given motivations and rationales for what they do which make sense, and then evolve satisfyingly over the course of the book. It has to be said that of the three major protagonists Shallan is the one who is not developed very satisfyingly in this way until the very end of the book, when her last three or four chapters transform the reader's understanding of her character and motives in a very impressive manner.
Sanderson has a strong reputation as the creator of impressive magic systems, so it's rather surprising that The Way of Kings pulls back on the magical side of things. There's an excellent opening sequence depicting the assassination which is slightly reminiscent of Nightcrawler's attack on the White House in X2 and is as impressive, but otherwise actual feats of magic are somewhat few and far between in the book (although there is a fair amount of use of magical artifacts such as fabrials and Shardblades), although with plenty of hints that these will form a bigger part of the story in subsequent volumes.
Another surprise is that Sanderson makes a bold move in this volume by putting some of the common mythology of his universe into the centre of the plot: Hoid, the Shards of Adonalsium, the Shadesmar and other elements which have been hinted at in Elantris, Warbreaker and the Mistborn series are here brought into somewhat sharper relief (although foreknowledge of those earlier novels is not required) and followers of this shared-universe element of Sanderson's work will have plenty more to chew on as a result of this book.
On the downside, Sanderson does adopt an everything-and-the-kitchen-sink approach with the book, and uses some side-plots purely to establish elements which will have no resolution until much later, and as a result there are a few side-stories which simply have no apparent reason for being in this novel (most notably the scenes set on the Purelake). In addition, to achieve greater resonance and carry out more impressive worldbuilding, Sanderson has had to sacrifice the thunderous pace that made the first Mistborn novel very enjoyable, the result being a book which is a good 150-200 pages longer than it strictly needs to be with some repetition of ideas and some action sequences (the chasm battles, whilst very impressive and atmospheric, do start blurring together after a while).
The Way of Kings (****½) has some minor issues, but overall is a deeper, darker and more satisfying novel than anything Sanderson has produced to date. The book will be published on 31 August 2010 in the USA and on 30 December in the UK.
I'm going slowly and savoring. About halfway through right now, and my current plan is to re-read it immediately after finishing it.
Highly recommended.
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Sanderson is such an entertaining writer he actually has tempted me to read a Wheel of Time novel.
That is a monumental feat worthy of the gods.
The Stormlight Archive Book 2: Words of Radiance
The world of Roshar is under threat. A mysterious assassin is slaughtering the rulers of the nations. In the east, the armies of Alethkar and the Parshendi are clashing on the Shattered Plains. Signs are appearing that the evil voidbringers are returning to bring about the Desolation, the destruction of the civilised world. But there are also signs that the Knights Radiant, humans empowered with amazing abilities, are returning to stop them.
Words of Radiance is the much-delayed second volume in The Stormlight Archive series (expected to last for ten volumes) and the sequel to 2010's The Way of Kings. Brandon Sanderson's work on this novel was delayed by his commitment to completing Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time sequence. With that accomplished, Sanderson is now free to focus on his own mega-epic and bring out future novels in a more timely fashion; the third Stormlight novel (working title: Unhallowed Stones) will likely follow before the end of 2015.
Like much of Sanderson's work, the novel balances traditional epic fantasy tropes with highly original and interesting worldbuilding, logically well-thought-out magic systems and hints of a much grander plan lying behind everything. Whilst only the second book of The Stormlight Archive, this is also the eighth novel set in his Cosmere universe (following on from Elantris, Warbreaker, the four Mistborn novels and of course The Way of Kings). Whilst previously the Cosmere links were fairly subtle and mostly of interest for Easter Egg hunters, in this series they are much more overt. Hoid (aka Wit), who only appeared in minor cameos in the other books, plays a much more important role here.
Words of Radiance is also big. At over 400,000 words, it's the longest epic fantasy novel published since George R.R. Martin's A Dance with Dragons, approaching 1,100 pages in hardcover (so yes, the UK paperback will be split for publication next year). It's an immense novel, not because an enormous amount happens but because Sanderson lets events unfold at a fairly relaxed pace. We only have four major POV characters (Shallan, Kaladin, Dalinar and Adolin) and a whole host of minor ones in remote parts of the world that we flit between. The minor POV chapters are highlights, with Sanderson crafting each one almost into a separate short story set in the midst of a grander tale. The story about the trader who has to make a bargain with a bunch of people who live on the back of a vast creature dwelling in the sea is effective, as is the story of a young burglar who turns out to be more than she appears. Whilst these stories are enjoyable, they also feel a little random sprinkled throughout the longer book, especially since their consequences may not be explored in full until the second half of the series.
The main narrative, unfortunately, is much slower. After we spent most of the first, 1,000-page volume on the Shattered Plains we then proceed to spend most of the second, even longer, volume in the same place. The first book had the advantage of introducing the location and its weird alien landscape, but by at least a quarter of the way through Words of Radiance the setting has lost a lot of is lustre. Fortunately, the end of the novel suggests that we have left behind the Plains and won't see them again, which is well past time. The interludes show that Roshar is a fascinating, well-designed and evocative location and getting to see more of it in future volumes rather than just one broken landscape will be a relief.
Whilst the story is slow to unfold, it does at least move things forward significantly. More Knights Radiant appear, we learn more about the world, its history and its cultures and there are some surprising and shocking deaths (although at least one of them turns out to be a disappointing fake-out). Readers of the other Cosmere books will also have a head start in working out what's going on, which is good for them but possibly a little unfair for more casual readers. Up until now - even arguably including The Way of Kings - the Cosmere stuff has been optional background only, with it not being necessary to read every book in the setting to enjoy the next one. Words of Radiance is the first time I felt like being familiar with the Cosmere was necessary to fully appreciate what the author was doing. This is made clear in no uncertain terms when the novel ends with an event which will won't make much sense unless you've also read Warbreaker.
On the character side of things, Sanderson is definitely improving novel to novel. Shallan, the least-developed character in the previous novel, takes centre stage here and becomes a much more rounded and interesting figure. Her forced humour and defensiveness, which was previously just annoying, is fleshed out a lot here as we get to know the reasons for it. Given it's not something he's known for, Sanderson successfully turns Shallan's story into an effective and unexpected tragedy. Adolin also graduates from 'heroic buffoon' to a slightly darker, more complex character (though not until quite late in the novel). Kaladin's unrelenting emoness continues unabated (despite his transformation into a fantasy version of Neo from The Matrix), but he's a much less dominant character this time around and he does lighten up as the book goes on, which is a relief. More problematic is the dialogue, which often feels clunky and sometimes incongruous. Roshar isn't Earth or even particularly reminiscent of any of our own time periods, but the use of modern language and terms ('awesomeness', 'upgrade') may be distracting for some readers.
Sanderson's signature magic systems are present and correct, though it's possible he's gone overboard in the Stormlight books. There are something like thirty magic systems on Roshar (even if they are variants on similar themes) and the relationships between Surgebinding, Lashing, Truthspeaking, the Old Magic and so forth are not very clearly defined. It also doesn't help that some of the magic systems of the other Cosmere worlds are also alluded to (one character is even a Misting from Scadrial, the setting of the Mistborn novels, though he barely appears). Whilst previously Sanderson has outline his magic systems with clarity, here it feels like he's been taking some lessons from Steven Erikson and just decided to drop the reader into a confusing maze which they have to work their own way out of.
Words of Radiance (****) is a good book beset by minor problems: dialogue issues, a languid pace and often irrelevant-feeling (though often individually fun) side-chapters. At the same time it features much-improved characters, superior worldbuilding and some impressive action set-pieces. I don't think Stormlight is ever going to be as era-defining an epic fantasy as The Wheel of Time, A Song of Ice and Fire and The Malazan Book of the Fallen are, with Sanderson sometimes definitely 'trying too hard' to match those stories for scale and scope and missing their strengths with character and plot, but it's still a readable and fun series. One thing I think Sanderson definitely needs to do with future volumes is make them smaller, trim the fat and give a more focused story each time. The novel is available now in the UK and USA.
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I just read this book over the last week, and I loved it. The side chapters seemed mostly irrelevant (though that may come back to relevance later in the series?), and it took a *long* time for me to find the Shallan chapters interesting. Kaladin's polar swings between emo whiner and ass kicker kept him interesting. I'll probably pick up words of radiance this week, though the $25 for the hardback is a big investment for a guy who pretty much only buys paper backs...
I enjoyed both books immensely, but by the time Words of Radiance whirled along I was so annoyed as the use of the side chapters immediately after major cliffhangers that I picked up the habit of leaving a bookmark at them and skipping them to get back to the main story, before coming back to read them when I finished the larger plot.
Flying in the face of all the favorable reviews, I found I could not finish Way of Kings. Brandon Sanderson is a brilliant author, that I cannot contest. His world-building is brilliant and there are so many neat ideas that just bring the world to life.
However, about halfway through the book I realized that each character does not so much have a character arc as they are stuck in a character cycle, going round and round over and over again. Man with Spear loses will to live, Man with Spear finds will to live, Man with Spear loses will to live, Man with Spear finds will to live, repeat to fade. I was so bored of Man with Spear's personal crisis that I completely lost interest in him as a character. It wouldn't have been so bad if Man with Spear was the only character exhibiting this level of chronic indecisiveness.
We have Man with Strange Dreams who veers back and forth between thinking himself a madman or a prophet. Girl who likes to Draw cannot decide whether or not to steal a plot mcguffin until we have plodded through hundreds of pages of her stuffing her face with jam. It sort of seems like these character cycles were dragged out to fill the book's impressive length. The book is loooooooong, but it is also boooooring, not a great combination.
And I could not even finish it, and this is the reason that I wanted post this critique. Many characters have an unhealthy obsession with honor. They make ridiculous and self-destructive decisions to preserve their own honor. Case in point (and this is where I gaveup on the whole series)....
Urgh, if I hadn't been reading the book on my Kindle I would have thrown it in the canal.
But saying that, I loved the chapters relating to the Assassin in White and the Chasmfiends were cool, but I'm not going to sit through another 9 books as long and tedious as the first for those few fleeting moments of excitement. :p
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The Shardblade won't help "Lord Bastard in Red Armor" to kill "Man with Strange Dreams" in the slightest. He gave it up with the plan already in motion to become more of a lead from the back general and consolidate his political power. The Shardblade only helps in a direct confrontation, and is largely irrelevant to "Man with Strange Dreams'" plans as the story goes forward. As you find out not long afterwards...he's a f#&$ing badass and doesn't need one anyway. Him not having it just makes things more fair for his enemies.
I disagree that the book spins its wheels quite THAT much. Yes, much of the Shallan (the one who loves jam so much) plot could have been cut down to size, but I think much of Kaladin's arc is necessary as far as character decisions he finally ends up making. Besides which...you literally gave up the book the exact moment his plot would have stopped going in cycles like that, since he doesn't have to run bridges any more now that he's been rescued. The whole point was that he was being ground down by the constant death of people around him. And by that point in the book he'd long since determined to himself that he'd live to try and protect the other bridge runners, and had a budding escape plan and everything.
The book is loooooooong, but it is also boooooring, not a great combination.
Honestly I can't disagree more. I was engaged every second I was reading both of these massive behemoths, and it took effort to put them down... especially in the last 5-10% or so of both books, where you hit what my friends and I have come to call the "Sanderson Cascade" where a whole lot of plot threads collide and get wrapped up in an enormous climax.
I'm sorry you didn't find it to your taste, but if there was any word I could never consider applied to either of these tomes, it would be "boring".
I don't think Stormlight is ever going to be as era-defining an epic fantasy as The Wheel of Time, A Song of Ice and Fire and The Malazan Book of the Fallen are, with Sanderson sometimes definitely 'trying too hard' to match those stories for scale and scope and missing their strengths with character and plot, but it's still a readable and fun series.
To each their own. I find Stormlight Archive much, MUCH more entertaining than two out of three of those series, by leagues. I got immensely sick of WoT by about book four and I dislike the large amounts of gore and sex and unfathomably high levels of utter bastardry in SOIAF. Never heard of Malazan, so might have to check that one out to see how it measures up.
Malazan is a bit odd. It has its share of gore and utter bastardry, but it has more of a Black Company feel than SoIaF (right down to the main characters of the first book, and parts of the rest being a group of irregular soldiers with funny nicknames who may or may not be working for the bad guy), and is overall more enjoyable IMO. Still, far from one of my favorite series', and I wouldn't call it "genre defining" in any sense of the word. I have yet to see a single series I could properly say was inspired primarily by Malazan.
I'd suggest finishing Wheel of Time if you get the chance, there's a lot of good stuff in there. Especially since Sanderson himself finished the last three books, and he brought much needed streamlining to Jordan's excellent world building and plot thread weaving.
I would love to read Sanderson's three finishers, but I just CANNOT bring myself to get through those middle Jordan books. Believe me, I've tried.
MALAZAN is a reaction to the low-magic, low-fi approach to fantasy introduced by ASoIaF and a few other series. It's a full-on, turn everything to 11, epic-level fantasy series with massive amounts of magic but also a lot of literary experimentation and interesting stuff to say about society. It's still too new to have inspired tons of new writers, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it cited as a major influence a further generation down the line. Black Company is hugely influential on modern fantasy writers, for example, and that's sold peanuts compared to Malazan.
I agree that Sanderson is more approachable and easier to read than some of the other fantasy series around, but that's also because he's kind of lightweight in characterisation and his prose is never above the ordinary. He's gotten a lot better and is getting a lot better as he goes along, plus he's a great guy (met him last weekend, he's apparently a fan of my blog), but I think his work suffers from being a little too pre-planned and less spontaneous than other fantasy. His overall, 40+ book masterplan is also both impressive but daunting.
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I would love to read Sanderson's three finishers, but I just CANNOT bring myself to get through those middle Jordan books. Believe me, I've tried.
Yeah, I'm with you on that one. I just finished the Robart Jordan part of my readthrough of the series, and I don't care how good the Sanderson books are, they aren't worth it. The only thing keeping me going book after terrible book was seeking a sense of closure - the early books have been immensely influential on me as a child and I just need to finish reading about the characters and world. Would definitely NOT recommend this to someone without some serious emotional investment though. Books 3 - 11 are for the most part Bad. Book 4 is the only one among them that was more interesting than annoying, and the worst of them are just torture.
It's still too new to have inspired tons of new writers, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it cited as a major influence a further generation down the line. Black Company is hugely influential on modern fantasy writers, for example, and that's sold peanuts compared to Malazan.
I sure do hope that sales alone are not an indicator of what works turn out to be influential, because boy I'm not ready for a world filled with Fifty Shades of Grey clones.
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I read the last Wheel of Time book (by Sanderson) in part to get closure because, like Lord Snow, these were something I grew up with, but also because I'd read that, after a debate on Reddit, he decided to include some gay men to rectify that utter lack of them in the rest of the series. I was not at all invested and had bottom-of-the-barrel expectations, but afterwords I was genuinely surprised by the fact that Sanderson took Jordan's characters and made them like each other again. I was actually disappointed that he hadn't taken over the series sooner, since that might have salvaged some of the material from the aforementioned books 3-11...
MALAZAN is a reaction to the low-magic, low-fi approach to fantasy introduced by ASoIaF and a few other series. It's a full-on, turn everything to 11, epic-level fantasy series with massive amounts of magic but also a lot of literary experimentation and interesting stuff to say about society.
Now see this, this is my thing. I've never been a huge fan of low-magic worlds in my fantasy, I like the far more fantastical, far more out-there stuff. I'll definitely need to look into that.
I agree that Sanderson is more approachable and easier to read than some of the other fantasy series around, but that's also because he's kind of lightweight in characterisation and his prose is never above the ordinary. He's gotten a lot better and is getting a lot better as he goes along, plus he's a great guy (met him last weekend, he's apparently a fan of my blog), but I think his work suffers from being a little too pre-planned and less spontaneous than other fantasy. His overall, 40+ book masterplan is also both impressive but daunting.
I'm not sure whether to say I disagree or that I don't notice/don't care. I'm not big on literary analysis, I just read what I enjoy and avoid what I don't.
Sanderson's easily the person I'd consider my favorite author if anyone asked, a position challenged only by Pratchett, and it really swaps back and forth based on what I've read lately and what mood I'm in.
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Now see this, this is my thing. I've never been a huge fan of low-magic worlds in my fantasy, I like the far more fantastical, far more out-there stuff. I'll definitely need to look into that.
I loved Malazan, but I'd warn any new reader that the first 100-200 pages of Gardens of the Moon are a slog. Erikson throws the reader into the world with none of the context or explanation prose of most other writers. You are largely left to learn the meaning of proper nouns and the nature of various systems and characters as you gain context in the world. It takes some time.
I happened to really enjoy that, but I know many people who didn't. I'd also suggest it works best when you have an opportunity to sit down and digest books in large sittings.
I'm not sure whether to say I disagree or that I don't notice/don't care. I'm not big on literary analysis, I just read what I enjoy and avoid what I don't.
Sanderson's easily the person I'd consider my favorite author if anyone asked, a position challenged only by Pratchett, and it really swaps back and forth based on what I've read lately and what mood I'm in.
I'd probably put Sanderson at the head of the class. Rothfuss has tighter writing but lacks volume, Butcher is fun but doesn't have the same tight plots, Weber is writing the same stories over and over again, etc. So yeah, Sanderson is probably my favorite author. Plus the guy puts out like 9 books a month or something similarly ridiculous.
Even his YA is pretty good.
I sure do hope that sales alone are not an indicator of what works turn out to be influential, because boy I'm not ready for a world filled with Fifty Shades of Grey clones.
A clone of a clone? Fifty Shades of Grey is Twilight with bondage instead of bloodsucking sparklers. Same awkward plot, same ridiculous premise (a man with absolutely everything the world can offer falls for some pretty but otherwise mundane and irrelevant girl), same rather disturbing possessive tendencies on the male part still being overridden in reader/viewer sympathy due to the utter unlikeability of the female pseudo-protagonist...
Obviously Twilight was influential in its writing.
And Malazan is fantastic, although I agree that Black Company obviously influenced it, although I feel Black Company can be traced back to the old Pulp heroes and Conan.
You never really know what is going to sow seeds.
Now see this, this is my thing. I've never been a huge fan of low-magic worlds in my fantasy, I like the far more fantastical, far more out-there stuff. I'll definitely need to look into that.I loved Malazan, but I'd warn any new reader that the first 100-200 pages of Gardens of the Moon are a slog. Erikson throws the reader into the world with none of the context or explanation prose of most other writers. You are largely left to learn the meaning of proper nouns and the nature of various systems and characters as you gain context in the world. It takes some time.
I happened to really enjoy that, but I know many people who didn't. I'd also suggest it works best when you have an opportunity to sit down and digest books in large sittings.
I'll give the first a shot at least, before writing it off. =)
I'd probably put Sanderson at the head of the class. Rothfuss has tighter writing but lacks volume, Butcher is fun but doesn't have the same tight plots, Weber is writing the same stories over and over again, etc. So yeah, Sanderson is probably my favorite author. Plus the guy puts out like 9 books a month or something similarly ridiculous.
Even his YA is pretty good.
+1
While not Way of Kings, I'll still leave this here.
The hardbound looks great on the shelf next to the US editions of the novels.
Mistborn is AMAZING. I love the world and the magic system so much. They were my introduction to Sanderson and I regret nothing at all.
I'm eagerly looking forward to more from Wax and Wayne in the newer Mistborn books following the original trilogy.
If you like epic, you'll like Malazan. It's got demigods and demon lords and archwizards and 100,000 year old undead and such.
Plus guys who might be 5th level running around in the mix too.
I sure do hope that sales alone are not an indicator of what works turn out to be influential, because boy I'm not ready for a world filled with Fifty Shades of Grey clones.A clone of a clone? Fifty Shades of Grey is Twilight with bondage instead of bloodsucking sparklers. Same awkward plot, same ridiculous premise (a man with absolutely everything the world can offer falls for some pretty but otherwise mundane and irrelevant girl), same rather disturbing possessive tendencies on the male part still being overridden in reader/viewer sympathy due to the utter unlikeability of the female pseudo-protagonist...
Obviously Twilight was influential in its writing.
And Malazan is fantastic, although I agree that Black Company obviously influenced it, although I feel Black Company can be traced back to the old Pulp heroes and Conan.
You never really know what is going to sow seeds.
50 shades of grey was originally written as a Twilight fanfic
Ah, yes it was. I may not have made that clear, but I meant as much when I called it a clone of a clone. I thought it was common knowledge.
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Ah, yes it was. I may not have made that clear, but I meant as much when I called it a clone of a clone. I thought it was common knowledge.
Yeah, you implied a slightly less direct relationship, more inspired by and less I am copying the characters and my editor is forcing me to rename stuff to not get sued when publishing :)
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I sure do hope that sales alone are not an indicator of what works turn out to be influential, because boy I'm not ready for a world filled with Fifty Shades of Grey clones.A clone of a clone? Fifty Shades of Grey is Twilight with bondage instead of bloodsucking sparklers. Same awkward plot, same ridiculous premise (a man with absolutely everything the world can offer falls for some pretty but otherwise mundane and irrelevant girl), same rather disturbing possessive tendencies on the male part still being overridden in reader/viewer sympathy due to the utter unlikeability of the female pseudo-protagonist...
Obviously Twilight was influential in its writing.
And Malazan is fantastic, although I agree that Black Company obviously influenced it, although I feel Black Company can be traced back to the old Pulp heroes and Conan.
You never really know what is going to sow seeds.
Sure, but Fifty Shades did way better than Twilight. If money is the parameter, FsoG will be the headliner, not Twilight.
I'd probably put Sanderson at the head of the class. Rothfuss has tighter writing but lacks volume, Butcher is fun but doesn't have the same tight plots, Weber is writing the same stories over and over again, etc. So yeah, Sanderson is probably my favorite author. Plus the guy puts out like 9 books a month or something similarly ridiculous.
I'd argue that Abercrombie can match the genius of Sanderson, though their talents really are quite separate - which goes a long way to show how wide the fantasy genre can be. And I feel like Robin Hobb, Daniel Abraham, and Tad Williams should be on the list.
And, need I even bother to mention George Martin?
Sanderson is definitely up there. The guy has blown my mind multiple times and I have a total trust in any book he puts out. But he's not George Martin.
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Thank god he's not.
After re-reading the books I have no clue why he gets the praise he gets.
I'm also not a Martin fan.
Sanderson's PG-rated writing is the main reason I prefer him over the far more gruesome, far more explicit work of Martin. SOIAF lost me with all the gore and sex. I'm not interested in that sort of thing in my reading.
That, and I trust Sanderson to finish a series. Martin, not so much.
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It's not the gore and the sex, it's the plodding pace, the lack of many likable characters, over-reliance on the crutch of "Big shocking moments!", and a plot that's been pretty much spinning its wheels since halfway through book 3.
The whole series past the first reads a lot like an "edgier" version of books 7-11 of Wheel of Time. Not much gets done and everyone whines about it.
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It's not the gore and the sex, it's the plodding pace, the lack of many likable characters, over-reliance on the crutch of "Big shocking moments!", and a plot that's been pretty much spinning its wheels since halfway through book 3.
The whole series past the first reads a lot like an "edgier" version of books 7-11 of Wheel of Time. Not much gets done and everyone whines about it.
I find myself in broad agreement with this.
Martin said that he wanted to emulate events like the War of the Roses in a more fantasy setting. The problem is literature tends to be character driven, and frankly by book three the number of characters I had any interest in at all had gotten really thin indeed. Most of his cast isn't likable, and in some cases even memorable. I got to the point eventually where I would skip several chapters to get to one that I had any interest at all, especially as the cast that I cared about dwindled.
I feel like he lost his way after book 3, and never recover. Now it just feels like he's plodding along like Jordan did in a plot that is largely without purpose.
Congratulations. You recreated the War of the Roses. It's boring, meandering, and increasingly self indulgent.
I just love it when a thread about another successful author turns into whining about GOT.
Seriously, read wild cards and thieves world sometime.
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I just love it when a thread about another successful author turns into whining about GOT.
Seriously, read wild cards and thieves world sometime.
Haven't read Thieves' World but I was under the impression Wild Cards had little to do with GRRM?
He was the editor and wrote a few stories, but wasn't really responsible for most of where the story went and so on, right? At least the omnibus I have credits him as editor, but not writer (or he wrote one story? Something like that.).
Regardless of which, GOT is what most people are talking about when they mention him. Snow brought it up.
I frankly don't think he's nearly as good of a writer as Sanderson.
I just love it when a thread about another successful author turns into whining about GOT.
Seriously, read wild cards and thieves world sometime.
Haven't read Thieves' World but I was under the impression Wild Cards had little to do with GRRM?
He was the editor and wrote a few stories, but wasn't really responsible for most of where the story went and so on, right? At least the omnibus I have credits him as editor, but not writer (or he wrote one story? Something like that.).
Regardless of which, GOT is what most people are talking about when they mention him. Snow brought it up.
I frankly don't think he's nearly as good of a writer as Sanderson.
Wow.
And how many TV or movie threads have you made about Joss Wheadon and how he is the devil?
none, interestingly. Comments? Many. But no threads dedicated to him specifically.
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Wow.I just love it when a thread about another successful author turns into whining about GOT.
Seriously, read wild cards and thieves world sometime.
Haven't read Thieves' World but I was under the impression Wild Cards had little to do with GRRM?
He was the editor and wrote a few stories, but wasn't really responsible for most of where the story went and so on, right? At least the omnibus I have credits him as editor, but not writer (or he wrote one story? Something like that.).
Regardless of which, GOT is what most people are talking about when they mention him. Snow brought it up.
I frankly don't think he's nearly as good of a writer as Sanderson.
Elaborate, perhaps?
And how many TV or movie threads have you made about Joss Wheadon and how he is the devil?none, interestingly. Comments? Many. But no threads dedicated to him specifically.
He means threads you've decided to s@+@ on and make a Whedon hate thread when originally it was not.
Wow.I just love it when a thread about another successful author turns into whining about GOT.
Seriously, read wild cards and thieves world sometime.
Haven't read Thieves' World but I was under the impression Wild Cards had little to do with GRRM?
He was the editor and wrote a few stories, but wasn't really responsible for most of where the story went and so on, right? At least the omnibus I have credits him as editor, but not writer (or he wrote one story? Something like that.).
Regardless of which, GOT is what most people are talking about when they mention him. Snow brought it up.
I frankly don't think he's nearly as good of a writer as Sanderson.
Elaborate, perhaps?
He means threads you've decided to s~#+ on and make a Whedon hate thread when originally it was not.And how many TV or movie threads have you made about Joss Wheadon and how he is the devil?none, interestingly. Comments? Many. But no threads dedicated to him specifically.
oh please. I have transformed no threads thusly. You confuse a thrown tomato with a snipers bullet.
It's not the gore and the sex, it's the plodding pace, the lack of many likable characters, over-reliance on the crutch of "Big shocking moments!", and a plot that's been pretty much spinning its wheels since halfway through book 3.
The whole series past the first reads a lot like an "edgier" version of books 7-11 of Wheel of Time. Not much gets done and everyone whines about it.
Yeah I didn't get far enough to run into those problems before being informed about the content of the books turned me off to reading them. Like I said in another thread, you only have to be exposed to something a few times before you know "I'm not going to enjoy something that has a lot of this in it".
I know a lot of people swear by him, and I suppose that's their thing to enjoy, but it's not mine. GRRM is simply Not For Me, and thus really isn't even in the competitive running as far as I'm concerned.
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oh please. I have transformed no threads thusly. You confuse a thrown tomato with a snipers bullet.
You have transformed threads about as much as Snow's comment and my reply did.
That is, exactly as much as you're transforming this one by b@*+$ing about it.
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It's not the gore and the sex, it's the plodding pace, the lack of many likable characters, over-reliance on the crutch of "Big shocking moments!", and a plot that's been pretty much spinning its wheels since halfway through book 3.
The whole series past the first reads a lot like an "edgier" version of books 7-11 of Wheel of Time. Not much gets done and everyone whines about it.
You can't be entirely serious here. Some of the biggest moments in the series happen at the second half of book 3.
And all of this discounts the super big moments that happen about halfway through the book - the red wedding being chief among them but really far from the only one.
A Storm of Swords is probably one of the best fantasy books ever written. While being long it still has great pacing, awesome worldbuilding, incredible character development (Jamie for one goes from a hated villain to a very interesting and ultimately likeable protagonist, Tyrion's mounting anger culminating in his trial and the betrayal of Shae is a stupid good character arc, Jon's romance and shifting of worldview is very well handled... the list goes on) and some of the best plot moments in recent memory.
Not saying your (obviously wrong) opinion of A Song of Ice and Fire is actually wrong, merely that to say the plot has been spinning it's wheels in book 3 is just clearly factually wrong.
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Wow.I just love it when a thread about another successful author turns into whining about GOT.
Seriously, read wild cards and thieves world sometime.
Haven't read Thieves' World but I was under the impression Wild Cards had little to do with GRRM?
He was the editor and wrote a few stories, but wasn't really responsible for most of where the story went and so on, right? At least the omnibus I have credits him as editor, but not writer (or he wrote one story? Something like that.).
Regardless of which, GOT is what most people are talking about when they mention him. Snow brought it up.
I frankly don't think he's nearly as good of a writer as Sanderson.
Martin is/was the driving force behind Wild Cards. The concept was his, the story and characters based on a roleplaying he GMd to some of his writer friends. He has stories in many, though not all, of the books in the series, and has been editor and story director for just about all of them.
I'm actually not a huge fan of the series. I can recognize that the world is interesting and that a lot of the writing is good, but I tend to dislike short stories and the overall arc lacks direction.
It's not the gore and the sex, it's the plodding pace, the lack of many likable characters, over-reliance on the crutch of "Big shocking moments!", and a plot that's been pretty much spinning its wheels since halfway through book 3.
The whole series past the first reads a lot like an "edgier" version of books 7-11 of Wheel of Time. Not much gets done and everyone whines about it.
You can't be entirely serious here. Some of the biggest moments in the series happen at the second half of book 3.
** spoiler omitted **
Not saying your (obviously wrong) opinion of A Song of Ice and Fire is actually wrong, merely that to say the plot has been spinning it's wheels in book 3 is just clearly factually wrong.
...And where has any of that actually GONE?
The only storyline that actually progressed beyond that point is Arya's, and maybe Daenerys's.
Yes there are a lot of "big events" there...but what have any of them actually culminated in during the next two books, in the grand scheme?
Wow.I just love it when a thread about another successful author turns into whining about GOT.
Seriously, read wild cards and thieves world sometime.
Haven't read Thieves' World but I was under the impression Wild Cards had little to do with GRRM?
He was the editor and wrote a few stories, but wasn't really responsible for most of where the story went and so on, right? At least the omnibus I have credits him as editor, but not writer (or he wrote one story? Something like that.).
Regardless of which, GOT is what most people are talking about when they mention him. Snow brought it up.
I frankly don't think he's nearly as good of a writer as Sanderson.
Martin is/was the driving force behind Wild Cards. The concept was his, the story and characters based on a roleplaying he GMd to some of his writer friends. He has stories in many, though not all, of the books in the series, and has been editor and story director for just about all of them.
I'm actually not a huge fan of the series. I can recognize that the world is interesting and that a lot of the writing is good, but I tend to dislike short stories and the overall arc lacks direction.
I've only read bit and pieces of an omnibus of the earlier stories (like the one about the pilot), so I can't really pass judgment on it one way or another. I just wasn't sure how much he had to do with it.
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...And where has any of that actually GONE?
Into a much different story path than what would have happened without those events
Honestly I think where Martin went wrong was not with steering the story in the wrong direction but in indulging too much in extremely long travel sequences - Brienne, Sam, and even Tyrion spend books 4 & 5 just getting from place to place. Journeys that in the first book would not even be described become entire character arcs for entire books. The main plot I'm mostly happy with, though I'm not sure how all those Dornish people figure in to it.
The great thing with Martin is, I'm sure the man has a few more shocking twists to shake the plot up ready in the barrel. I honestly don't know how the story ends.
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Right, right, there's a lot of places the story COULD go...but it hasn't gone anywhere yet, and hasn't for two books now (And the wildling settlers and Westerosi government weakening could very probably be factors more for the epilogue, not the story). That's my point.
I'll read along to see what happens, but IMO judging a story's quality based on where it COULD go rather than where it HAS GONE is a mistake. Currently the story is plodding along at glacial pace, with occasional flurries of activity. The man has serious pacing issues, which is why he's not one of my favorite authors (to tie it back to the initial comment).
Sanderson's books just...flow. The man writes doorstoppers for sure but they're the kind of book I can sit and start reading and then "wake up" 3 hours and 500 pages later wondering where the time went and a very clear picture of everything going on, because his books generally speaking just don't STOP, at least not for long periods of time (certainly not on the "book length" orders of time).
Right, right, there's a lot of places the story COULD go...but it hasn't gone anywhere yet, and hasn't for two books now (And the wildling settlers and Westerosi government weakening could very probably be factors more for the epilogue, not the story). That's my point.
I'll read along to see what happens, but IMO judging a story's quality based on where it COULD go rather than where it HAS GONE is a mistake. Currently the story is plodding along at glacial pace, with occasional flurries of activity. The man has serious pacing issues, which is why he's not one of my favorite authors (to tie it back to the initial comment).
I think it's fair to say ASoIaF has been spinning its wheels in books 4 and 5, and most likely because they weren't supposed to happen. After the end of book 3 we should have skipped forward 5 years, but for some reason he decided to write them out. The result was two books in which not much happened... Now he's got that out of the way, hopefully the pace will pick up again in the next one.
Sanderson's books just...flow. The man writes doorstoppers for sure but they're the kind of book I can sit and start reading and then "wake up" 3 hours and 500 pages later wondering where the time went and a very clear picture of everything going on, because his books generally speaking just don't STOP, at least not for long periods of time (certainly not on the "book length" orders of time).
I'd agree with this and the other comments of praise above. I only recently discovered Sanderson (I'd heard of him but hadn't paid much attention); a friend recommended The Way of Kings to me. I raced through it and Words of Radiance and now desperately await the next part. They're easily amongst my favourite novels. I'm now halfway through Mistborn, and find it (almost) equally enthralling.
I'm even tempted to pick up Wheel of Time again just to get to his concluding novels. My interest in that series died in book 8, after 4 books of literally nothing but conversations about dresses and intelligent characters stupidly misunderstanding each others feelings. A shame, since the first 3 parts of the series were (in my opinion) excellent...
If you find this better than mistborn I better get a copy quick.
It's very clear that Sanderson has improved since writing Mistborn. And I'm saying that as someone who adores Mistborn and its world and characters; I just picked up Shadows of Self (second book in the new Wax and Wayne series) last night actually, on that note.