Reasonably certain that this has been discussed before in some fashion, but I can't for the life of me find it. Could someone please summarize what role each of the new core classes fills? I seem to recall a designer saying they were there to fill missing roles that the *core* core classes had left vacant, but other than the Summoner and, to a point, the Alchemist, I can't see which exactly.
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Oracle is the missing spontaneous divine caster.
Witch is the missing combo divine/arcane caster.
Inquisitor is the missing divine Bard/Skill Monkey (OK, that's a far shot, but you know what I mean).
Cavalier is the missing non-spellcasting Fighter that does something besides stabbing things in the face.
I appreciate your reply, but that seems more like representing archetypes of other classes rather than filling roles. For instance, as for each class' role in combat, I can assume that the Summoner is about populating the battlefield and that the Alchemist is the, uh, self-enhancing bomber. Even the Cavalier is a bit more evident, as a Warlord-ish type. The others seem like 3.5 splatbook class filler, or a prestige class. To mine eyes, at least.
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The others seem like 3.5 splatbook class filler, or a prestige class. To mine eyes, at least.
Exactly. All the base classes in the core rulebook and APG are tweaked versions of the four original classes: cleric, fighter, rogue and wizard. A sorcerer is a wizard who doesn't memorize spells. An oracle is a cleric who is not dedicated to a specific good and who doesn't memorize spells.
The roles the APG base classes fill have been there all along and been performed by other character classes. The new classes may be more efficient, but they don't represent "New Roles".
I found alot of the APG stuf allows you to do things you could ahve Tried in the core rules but probly would have been inefficient at it.
One thing i found witht he Cavalier is that it allows you play the armored knight type role when Either dont want to be a paladin, or being a paladinw ould be inappropriate. That it also happens to do a few Archtype concepts better than the other core clases Helps.
I found i Really enjoyed the witch, id played the concept before using wizard but the designed class version of it was alot more fun and the Hexes greatly add to the flavour of it all.
None of the classes felt splat bookish to me though.
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I appreciate your reply, but that seems more like representing archetypes of other classes rather than filling roles. For instance, as for each class' role in combat, I can assume that the Summoner is about populating the battlefield and that the Alchemist is the, uh, self-enhancing bomber. Even the Cavalier is a bit more evident, as a Warlord-ish type. The others seem like 3.5 splatbook class filler, or a prestige class. To mine eyes, at least.
Well, this isn't 4e or WoW, the game is not built around controllers, strikers, DPS, and hybrid offtanks. D&D wasn't created with such assumptions, you can have a controller Wizard, striker Wizard, support Wizard, depends on your spells, feats and playstyle.
For example, there was the Mystic Theurge, a PrC for people who wanted to be able to cast both Heal and Black Tentacles. Arguable, Mystic Theurge didn't do the job well, because in common opinion the class is wonky, not to mention the chore of mutliclassing casters you have to endure along the way.
So, enter the Witch, the way to be both a divine and arcane caster. It fills both a conceptual and mechanical niche. It wasn't created around a combat role concept, it was created around a "hole" in the class lineup.
I find the core APG classes tend do things mechanically that you can't with core PG classes. For example the Oracle, they are a divine spontaneous caster. The Summoner is another with an arcane angle to animal companion of the Druid. As someone mentioned the Inquisitor is the divine equivalent of the Bard in mechanics. The Witch combines a mix of arcane and divine similar to the bard but extended to 9th level spells. The Alchemist is just plain different all together. And finally the Cavalier is the martial fighter with bonded mount.
Of all 6 only the only class you might be able to do with PG core class and an archetype is the Cavalier.
The last missing mechanic for class is the Magus and I suspect it will be Full BAB, D10 HD, 4th level arcane caster much like the Ranger/Paladin spell casting but arcane spell instead of divine.
I'm betting the Ultimate Magic will have more archetypes including the casters for the casters in the APG. The Ultimate Combat will probably do that for the Magus and Cavalier. Just a guess though.
As for roles in the game there are roles. There is the healer, trap finder/skill monkey, arcane caster, and martial roles. Some classes fit certain roles better but can also fit other roles. For example take healers you can have Clerics, Paladins, Druids, Bards, Inquisitors, Oracles, Witches, Rangers, or Alchemists.
Thank you all for the replies. I might have been going about it the wrong way, but I distinctly remembered one of the designers claiming that these new classes came to fill roles that the *core* core classes had left vacant - "role" here being a mechanical role in combat, and therein lay my confusion.
Thank you all for the replies. I might have been going about it the wrong way, but I distinctly remembered one of the designers claiming that these new classes came to fill roles that the *core* core classes had left vacant - "role" here being a mechanical role in combat, and therein lay my confusion.
What the developers had meant by that comment wasn't just "role" in combat, it was "role" altogether, in and out of combat.
Alchemists for example are a spellcasting skillmonkey (to quote to common parlance) with a ton of unique abilities specific to only that class.
Its a class with a very unique flavor, roleplaying opportunities and completely different tactics in combat that any other class.
There are still a few roles left that haven't been done. The arcane equivalent of the paladin/ranger (I agree that Magus will probably be this) is one. But we also need a "nature bard", like the bard and inquisitor, but casting druidic spells (Piper); a non-nature based divine caster that has a companion focus (Thelemist, perhaps?); a spontaneous nature-based caster (Shaman); and divine equivalents to alchemists (Herbalist and Thaumaturge for druidic and clerical spells, respectively).
Thank you all for the replies. I might have been going about it the wrong way, but I distinctly remembered one of the designers claiming that these new classes came to fill roles that the *core* core classes had left vacant - "role" here being a mechanical role in combat, and therein lay my confusion.
When they say role, they didnt mean it in the 'tank', 'caster', 'healer', 'buffer', sense, but instead that they would have unique mechanics that played off differently within the basic roles of combat.
For instance, the cavlier, is a front line combatant, much like say a paladin, but he does it in a different way. Heavily focused on being a mounted combatant, and representing the mideval knight.
The witch is an arcane caster, but it does so in a different way then other casters. First and formost the witch's spell list mixes arcane and divine spells creating a new niche that was previously only filled with prestige classes (mystic theruge). But the big mechanical different is the hexes, which are limited use abilities that buff or debuff that are not spells.
The summoner, well that is an interesting little bit and their quite a few opinions on what the final version of the summoner are and arent, but basically this class is a caster who is focused on his pet as opposed to anything else. Other classes have pets but they are not the focuse of the class. The summoner is definately focused on the eidolon. Its class features, spell list, and everything else revolve around that extraplanar friend of the summoner.
Oracle - this to is cleric as sorceror is to wizard. A spontaneous divine caster with a themed set of abilities similar to bloodlines to fill in the class.
Alchemist - Almost a mad scientist kind of class. You are a 3/4 caster who focused on potions and chemistry. You can take the class in a number of directions either focusing on the bombs, the buffs (into a fairly descent combat character) or the casting itself with your infusions. The bombs, and the discoveries are what make this class really unique and gives it that mad scientist (or mad alchemist that is) feel.
Inquisitor - divine bard (sort of). Divine spells 3/4 casting and a bunch of self buffs that make the character a descent combatant with a solid skill list and medium bab/hit dice.
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Inquisitor - The Selfish Bard. Not as much in skill as a Rogue or Bard but still has a ton. Can buff himself significantly in nearly any direction to fill most roles as a back up. Excellent spotter, tracker, intimidator, lie detector and will usually be at the top of the initiative order. Offensively they can go range, melee or even spells with sick spell penetration. Defensively can get pretty gross and are another possible source of Cure spells.
Biggest weakness is HP and attrition. With so many reasons to invest in Dex and Wis, Con actually ties with Cha for 3rd stat. In long term battles without rest in between, uses of Judgment and rounds of Bane really start to matter and the best highest levels spells start to deplete fast if he is being a supporting buffer.
It is hard to pin him down in a single role but you can be sure an Inquisitor will be supporting several characters who are better in the main roles.