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I'm looking for something rules based here (as opposed to house rules based). I thought now that Gencon is over, it might be an appropriate time to ask (and I'm glad that I didn't show up at Gencon with this situation...).
I'm playing a PFS CN Cleric/Necromancer. Diety is Ydersius. Domains are Animal and Chaos (Scalykind from Pathfinder #37 is not [yet] legal). Current Feats are Improved Channel, Command Undead, Selective Channel, Boon Companion.
The thrust of this character is that Ydersius sends an animal companion to serve the cleric. If the animal dies, the cleric will then use Animate Dead to keep the animal "useful" until the mission is complete. (yes, yes, it costs money, and goes away at end of adventure.)
The question is: When casting Animate Dead on a dead animal companion, what stats does one use for the animal. On this thread http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/archives/deadAnimalCompanionAndAnimateDead&page=1#8 James Jacobs gave the answer that one uses the stats for the base creature as presented in the bestiary, but this raises some very very big problems. Gargantuan problems, as a T-Rex is normally Gargantuan, and only appears as a medium while a companion.
It would be my guess that with Gencon fast approaching James was quite busy preparing, and gave an off-the-cuff answer. However, I'd like to get some sort of ruling that is portable, so that I know what the rules are going into a game, rather than just getting houseruled at any particular event.
I think one of the problems is that in the transition between 3.5 and Pathfinder, an animal companion's hit dice went from being [Base Creature + Bonus HD] to [HD on table]. Also, in the 3.5 Player's Handbook, the Animal Companion is described as typical for its species, except for the bonuses noted in the table. This wording also went away with Pathfinder. (These are not complaints, I'm just setting down the history for completeness.)
So. My question is... Does one use
a) the stats of the animal as presented on its Bestiary page, per James Jacobs, recognizing that in many cases, the animal as presented in the Bestiary is considerably larger/stronger than the animal companion version.
b) the stats of the creature as it was at the moment of death, with what appears (based on the history of animal companions in versions past) to be non-supernatural incremental improvements in the creature's HD and ability scores
c) some other, yet unproposed standard
(I'll mention (parenthetically) that I've not yet had occasion to animate "Mr. Chuckles" (Large Ape carrying Lucerne Hammer - Martial Weapon Prof, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes), but he did come quite close to death serving as the party tank.)
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For that matter, what are the rules on using animate dead on any PC or their NPC beyond cost in-module? Is it an evil act?
Obviously, it shouldn't be done without the player's permission, but it does have it's uses. For example: I had a cleric in Living Greyhawk who was killed in the first encounter of a two round module. Raising him wasn't going to be worth it. The Wizard had Animate Dead prepared with the component on hand, so I was raised as a skeleton with my gear since the module had extreme cold weather effects. I NPC'd the Skeleton for the rest of the module; it was actually a lot of fun.
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b) the stats of the creature as it was at the moment of death, with what appears (based on the history of animal companions in versions past) to be non-supernatural incremental improvements in the creature's HD and ability scoresc) some other, yet unproposed standard
I always tend to favor the weaker option. I would say the creature reverts to its basic stats (from the list of companions) and you animate THAT, no matter what level you were and advancements the creature had.
Not great, but very flavorful.
JP
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b) the stats of the creature as it was at the moment of death, with what appears (based on the history of animal companions in versions past) to be non-supernatural incremental improvements in the creature's HD and ability scoresc) some other, yet unproposed standard
I always tend to favor the weaker option. I would say the creature reverts to its basic stats (from the list of companions) and you animate THAT, no matter what level you were and advancements the creature had.
Not great, but very flavorful.
JP
Even so, still leaves open the question of Hit dice, which is not defined by the basic stats. If this were 3.5, then under your option, it would be simple to take the base creature's hit dice, apart from any Bonus HD granted by the animal companion status. Under Pathfinder, the creature does not have Bonus HD, it's HD are defined entirely by the effective druid level of the character.
But again, this is a "house rule", unsupported by any rules text. What I am specifically seeking is the rule, so that in the Pathfinder Society, my character is portable from one DM to another, just as a fighter, or rogue would be.
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You're not going to see a specific rule on this. It's too unlikely to happen with any consistency for Josh to allocate his time to come up with a rule. What I suggest you do is come up with some suggestions, backed up by a annotated stat block, and offer it up to your GM for review before the game begins. He/she can make a decision based on their tolerances.
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You're not going to see a specific rule on this. It's too unlikely to happen with any consistency for Josh to allocate his time to come up with a rule. What I suggest you do is come up with some suggestions, backed up by a annotated stat block, and offer it up to your GM for review before the game begins. He/she can make a decision based on their tolerances.
I'm guessing that are correct in that no answer/rule will be coming.
This is understandable but ... disappointing? vaguely annoying? (I'm a "I don't care what the rules are, so long as they are well defined" type of person, so it's more a reflection on me than anything else.)
I think what I will end up doing is coming to the table with the companion statted, along with the statted (is that even a word?) companion having the zombie/fast zombie/skeleton/bloody skeleton templates applied. I'll show them to the DM, and offer to make any changes he feels are necessary.
It's actually a fairly big gp hit for a lower level character (currently 5th) to spend 125gp during the course of the adventure. (Given that the animate ends at end of module.)
The extra attack the creature makes as a fast zombie, or the regeneration of the bloody skeleton is somewhat of an even trade for the loss of 3 feats (from the living creature).
Even so, still leaves open the question of Hit dice, which is not defined by the basic stats. If this were 3.5, then under your option, it would be simple to take the base creature's hit dice, apart from any Bonus HD granted by the animal companion status. Under Pathfinder, the creature does not have Bonus HD, it's HD are defined entirely by the effective druid level of the character.
I'm not sure why you think the creature's hit dice would suddenly change after it died. I would just use the animal companion stats and apply the appropriate skeleton/zombie template normally.
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I'm not sure why you think the creature's hit dice would suddenly change after it died. I would just use the animal companion stats and apply the appropriate skeleton/zombie template normally.
Even so, still leaves open the question of Hit dice, which is not defined by the basic stats. If this were 3.5, then under your option, it would be simple to take the base creature's hit dice, apart from any Bonus HD granted by the animal companion status. Under Pathfinder, the creature does not have Bonus HD, it's HD are defined entirely by the effective druid level of the character.
agree. thats what i ruled. it loses all its skills, all feats, and special attacks. gets toughness feat and an extra attack. felt was a good trade, but still wounder.
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I'm not sure why you think the creature's hit dice would suddenly change after it died. I would just use the animal companion stats and apply the appropriate skeleton/zombie template normally.
Even so, still leaves open the question of Hit dice, which is not defined by the basic stats. If this were 3.5, then under your option, it would be simple to take the base creature's hit dice, apart from any Bonus HD granted by the animal companion status. Under Pathfinder, the creature does not have Bonus HD, it's HD are defined entirely by the effective druid level of the character.
Hogarth,
I agree with you, however jjaamm posted the original thread in the Pathfinder rules section (linked above), and James Jacobs answered that the template was not intended to apply to animal companions, and that the correct procedure would be to apply the template to the creature as listed in the bestiary.
This seemed entirely um, wrong to me. Which led me to create this thread.
Applying the zombie or skeleton template to the companion as it was when it dies seems to me the most logical action. It provides a creature that scales with level, so that it never really becomes worthless, or underpowered, and really isn't overpowered compared to the companion itself. (In fact, it does decrease in power versus the companion, as the companion continues to gain feats).
Having sought a rule, and coming to the conclusion that there will be no rule forthcoming, I'll muddle along with what I think is the logical rule, but clearing it with the DM before the module begins.
