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The fact that a medium character with a strength of 7 has EXACTLY the same effect as a medium character with a strength of 18 using unarmed strike is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
I want to play a character that is NOT a monk, and does NOT specialize in unarmed combat, but there seems to be no way of making a simple punch be useful without specializing.
I could use some other secondary weapon, but why can't a punch be effective without having to take more than "improved unarmed strike, I've always thought that that was the worst aspect of D&D is that it forces you into a box with your characters, if you want your character to be effective in one way you have to pour all your skill points and feats into that one thing for at least 10 levels if not 20. But If I want to be a fighter who likes to punch people in melee and I don't want to pull a dagger in order to inflict more than 1d3 or even just punch someone hard enough to knock them out without having to take 4 feats to have a chance at it. I CAN'T!
I can't afford to take the feats because that compromises the integrity of my characters specialization. But come on people, Im an 8 foot 340lb half-giant and I can tear someone's arms off, but I can't hit them and knock them out?
How do we make a punch useful? If I "know how to throw a punch" which sure we can say, "you have to take a feat for that" why should I have to take 3 more feats to make it even the slightest bit useful?
The fact that a medium character with a strength of 7 has EXACTLY the same effect as a medium character with a strength of 18 using unarmed strike is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
I want to play a character that is NOT a monk, and does NOT specialize in unarmed combat, but there seems to be no way of making a simple punch be useful without specializing.
I could use some other secondary weapon, but why can't a punch be effective without having to take more than "improved unarmed strike, I've always thought that that was the worst aspect of D&D is that it forces you into a box with your characters, if you want your character to be effective in one way you have to pour all your skill points and feats into that one thing for at least 10 levels if not 20. But If I want to be a fighter who likes to punch people in melee and I don't want to pull a dagger in order to inflict more than 1d3 or even just punch someone hard enough to knock them out without having to take 4 feats to have a chance at it. I CAN'T!
I can't afford to take the feats because that compromises the integrity of my characters specialization. But come on people, Im an 8 foot 340lb half-giant and I can tear someone's arms off, but I can't hit them and knock them out?How do we make a punch useful? If I "know how to throw a punch" which sure we can say, "you have to take a feat for that" why should I have to take 3 more feats to make it even the slightest bit useful?
Ignoring the fact that there IS a difference between the punch of a character with a 7 str and an 18str (6 damage per attack, which is enough to knock out a common person). A punch is useful, but it wont be as useful as say a sword, or a knife unless you really know how to use it. Thats why it costs feats. The big strong guy will do more damage with a punch, but it still will never compare to what happens when I hit you with an axe. It makes perfect sense.
As to what you can do, you can use equipment. A spiked gauntlet bumps up the damage a bit and saves you the need to take the unarmed strike feat at all. There is also i believe brass knuckles in the APG which work with unarmed attacks. For wealthier characters, get your hands on a monks robe. Now your unarmed attack deals 1d8 damage.
The fact that a medium character with a strength of 7 has EXACTLY the same effect as a medium character with a strength of 18 using unarmed strike is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
I want to play a character that is NOT a monk, and does NOT specialize in unarmed combat, but there seems to be no way of making a simple punch be useful without specializing.
I could use some other secondary weapon, but why can't a punch be effective without having to take more than "improved unarmed strike, I've always thought that that was the worst aspect of D&D is that it forces you into a box with your characters, if you want your character to be effective in one way you have to pour all your skill points and feats into that one thing for at least 10 levels if not 20. But If I want to be a fighter who likes to punch people in melee and I don't want to pull a dagger in order to inflict more than 1d3 or even just punch someone hard enough to knock them out without having to take 4 feats to have a chance at it. I CAN'T!
I can't afford to take the feats because that compromises the integrity of my characters specialization. But come on people, Im an 8 foot 340lb half-giant and I can tear someone's arms off, but I can't hit them and knock them out?How do we make a punch useful? If I "know how to throw a punch" which sure we can say, "you have to take a feat for that" why should I have to take 3 more feats to make it even the slightest bit useful?
What 3 feats are you referring to? improved unarmed strike and what else? Two weapon fighting?
And an 18 strength adds to your to hit and damage where a 7 takes away from that, so strength is important. +4 to hit and damage as opposed to a -2 is a big difference
So you come here, under a slightly belligerent nickname, and with your first post with a completely belligerent subject you complain about the rules with you obviously haven't even read correctly? Now that's classy.
Improved Unarmed Strike has no prereqs so you why do you think you need 3 other feats.
1. 1d3-2(strength of 7) is not the same as 1d3+4(strength 18)
2. I would ask your DM if the powerful build trait allows the punch to do 1d4.
3. Your punch should not be equal to a weapon's damage. People can take several hits to the face, but you can most likely kill someone with one good swing from a warhammer.
4. The reason you have to keep putting skill points into things is because they get harder as you level up. If the game had a static difficulty there would not be much of a need to level up.
Other points:
In order to simulate the one punch knockout you would have to change the hp/condition system. Do you really think the PC's would survive a bite from a dragon though? I think the system is just not designed for what you want to do.
The fact that a medium character with a strength of 7 has EXACTLY the same effect as a medium character with a strength of 18 using unarmed strike is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
I want to play a character that is NOT a monk, and does NOT specialize in unarmed combat, but there seems to be no way of making a simple punch be useful without specializing.
I could use some other secondary weapon, but why can't a punch be effective without having to take more than "improved unarmed strike, I've always thought that that was the worst aspect of D&D is that it forces you into a box with your characters, if you want your character to be effective in one way you have to pour all your skill points and feats into that one thing for at least 10 levels if not 20. But If I want to be a fighter who likes to punch people in melee and I don't want to pull a dagger in order to inflict more than 1d3 or even just punch someone hard enough to knock them out without having to take 4 feats to have a chance at it. I CAN'T!
I can't afford to take the feats because that compromises the integrity of my characters specialization. But come on people, Im an 8 foot 340lb half-giant and I can tear someone's arms off, but I can't hit them and knock them out?How do we make a punch useful? If I "know how to throw a punch" which sure we can say, "you have to take a feat for that" why should I have to take 3 more feats to make it even the slightest bit useful?
The Free Hand Fighter Archetype from APG allows you to use a main wapon in one hand & an empty fist in the other for special attacks, The Brawler trait adds +1 to all unarmed attacks & grapples, Reckless trait adds +1 damage but -1 on to attack, or Dirty Fighter trait adds 1 to damage if flanking, all would help with damage output without adding extra feats though only slightly. Does that help any?
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I do apologize for the belligerent nature of my question, I read through the players guide and advanced players guide for 4 hours last night thinking 'this cannot be right'. But I could find 0 references to strength modifier being added to an unarmed strike. I still can't. Nor any reference that actually makes it clear that the damage from an unarmed strike is anything more than 1d3. I am new to this game, having only played with much more open "gurps" character generation. I did ask my husband who has been playing D&D for 20+ years and he was as baffled as me. Though he has never had a character with unarmed strike.
I allowed my frustrations with the apparent ridiculousness of not being able to use the most base weapon a fighter would have, to post a rather rude inquiry.
Obviously I am wrong and should have approached with respectfully asking for help in understanding rather than attacking the system.
The 3 additional feats I meant were superior unarmed strike, hammer fist, and power attack, which seemed the only way to actually allow you to make a punch effective enough to actually do anything.
If there actually is anyplace in the reference material that explains clearly how to apply damage from an unarmed strike, could someone kindly direct me to it?
Apology accepted.
The Strength modifier applies to any melee attack. I see where your confusion comes from, as the rules for this damage bonus mention only "using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon". This is indeed not as clearly worded as it should be. However, this category is supposed to include unarmed strikes, and also - as the Bestiary easily shows - natural weapons of monsters, even though they are not technically "melee weapons". (They are, however, for the Pathfinder RPG system.)
It's true however that a medium size character does only 1d3 damage (plus Strength modifier) with an unarmed strike, and this damage is non-lethal only. To do lethal damage you will need Improved Unarmed Strike. Only a monk can do more than that, though. The APG may have archetypes for melee classes to improve on this for non-monks, though, I'm not up to speed there yet.
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Thank you , that actually makes entirely more sense. I figured I would have to take Improved Unarmed Strike simply for the "He knows how to throw a punch aspect" in order to do actual damage. Being able to do a "one punch knockout" also is something that requires special training. The thing that just irritated the crud out of me was that there didn't seem any use un having a higher strength. I appreciate you for correcting me and giving me a direction to look for figuring out how to calculate the correct damage. Our GM/DM is also new to D&D and I fear that if we as players do not have all the answers, we will get royally screwed.
Thank you for your time and comments.
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I do apologize for the belligerent nature of my question, I read through the players guide and advanced players guide for 4 hours last night thinking 'this cannot be right'. But I could find 0 references to strength modifier being added to an unarmed strike. I still can't. Nor any reference that actually makes it clear that the damage from an unarmed strike is anything more than 1d3. I am new to this game, having only played with much more open "gurps" character generation. I did ask my husband who has been playing D&D for 20+ years and he was as baffled as me. Though he has never had a character with unarmed strike.
I allowed my frustrations with the apparent ridiculousness of not being able to use the most base weapon a fighter would have, to post a rather rude inquiry.
Obviously I am wrong and should have approached with respectfully asking for help in understanding rather than attacking the system.The 3 additional feats I meant were superior unarmed strike, hammer fist, and power attack, which seemed the only way to actually allow you to make a punch effective enough to actually do anything.
If there actually is anyplace in the reference material that explains clearly how to apply damage from an unarmed strike, could someone kindly direct me to it?
First of all welcome to the boards.
Secondly, fists are considered melée weapons and all of those add str bonus to damage. Thrown weapons also add str bonus as well. There are quite a few years behind this system so you might want to read it a few more times. Check p.180 for the info you want.
Also if you're a half-giant, doesn't that make you Large size? And if so, wouldn't that make your damage 1d4 instead of 1d3?
I've houseruled that all martial classes get it for free.
Because seriously, it should not cost you a g$@!#+n feat to be able to punch someone. When your characters avoid tavern brawls because the system won't let them participate, there's a flaw in the system.
I've houseruled that all martial classes get it for free.
Because seriously, it should not cost you a g*~#$!n feat to be able to punch someone. When your characters avoid tavern brawls because the system won't let them participate, there's a flaw in the system.
Common misconception, actually. I'm assuming you're referring to the "provokes AOOs" clause, but unless your taverns are regularly full of monks, that doesn't actually matter. Without IUS, you don't threaten with unarmed attacks and thus cannot make AOOs with them. Two people beating each other up with their untrained fists don't provoke from each other for attacking.
not sure 1/2 ogre rules, but if your large it would increase damage.
Brass knuckles or a guantlet would help. I think part of the reason fighting unarmed seems like it stinks compared to a monk is becasue thats the ,monks gig so they ahve to favor the monk in that else noone would want to play one, they'd all play a bare fist fighter.
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Dang, all the good points have been made...
+1 @ Zurai's rebuttal on the tavern brawls situation, for one.
+1 @ Zaister's explanation. All things you make an attack with in melee are "melee weapons" for nearly all purposes. Some things mention specifically "manufactured weapons."
Also, unarmed strikes from a 9 Sorc/10 Dragon Disciple/Barb 1 that emphasized strength could quite possibly punch a visible hole through a commoner* with no training whatsoever. If they used a spell to shape-shift into a larger/stronger creature, it only gets worse.
* 44 Strength. Source: 20 starting, +5 level, +5 inherent, +4 Dragon Disciple class feature, +6 item, +4 rage. Total: 1d3+17, enough to send the average commoner from full HP to -Con in one hit. Use Form of the Dragon III to up that to 54 strength for 1d6+22, though you'd like use your natural attacks instead in that form. This assumes you took the -4 to deal lethal damage, of course.
Special note: Do NOT get into a tavern brawl with such a character! Though the dragon-like wings probably told you that already.
It's worth remembering that in the real world punching someone is a poor way to do damage to them. Watch the UFC, the majority of wins aren't by KO, they're won by various kinds of submission holds.
In real life hitting someone hard enough to knock them out is a good way to break your hand. The skull is a very hard piece of bone with a comparatively thin layer of skin and muscle covering it.
(One of the more unpleasant ironies of the turn of the century push to make boxing safer and more mainstream is that mandating boxers wear to gloves for "safety" reasons has made boxing much less safe. Since boxers don't have to worry as much about hurting their hands they can throw full power punches to their opponents heads, leading to a massive increase in brain and eye injuries.)
In game terms Monks and those who take the Improved Unarmed Strike feat should be assumed to have undergone specific training to harden their hands to take the kind of damage that hitting something with a lightly or unprotected fist would cause.
Thank you , that actually makes entirely more sense. I figured I would have to take Improved Unarmed Strike simply for the "He knows how to throw a punch aspect" in order to do actual damage. Being able to do a "one punch knockout" also is something that requires special training. The thing that just irritated the crud out of me was that there didn't seem any use un having a higher strength. I appreciate you for correcting me and giving me a direction to look for figuring out how to calculate the correct damage. Our GM/DM is also new to D&D and I fear that if we as players do not have all the answers, we will get royally screwed.
Thank you for your time and comments.
You should also try to realise that most 'one punch knockouts' happen when a TRAINED pugilist (like a boxer or mixed martial artist) fights. If you have ever really seen 2 average joe schmoes fight, there is a lot of windmilling, glancing hits, grappling and falling to the ground, wild kicking, etc.
Most of the people in OUR WORLD who CAN one punch knockout are TRAINED unarmed combatants. That said it is hardly rediculous to expect that if you want to be VERY good unarmed in RPG's you should at least have SOME advanced training. Just like warrior specialise in their lethal weapons they have to specialise in their non lethal ones if they want to be really good with them.
That said, power attack is a great combat feat for ANY form of combat, Improved Unarmed represents the basic level of advanced unarmed combat (similar to how say Weapon Focus represents the basic level of advanced armed combat).
But the best thing to realise is that D&D/Pathfinder is not made to be a 'one punch knockout' game exept at the very lowest levels where you characters are fresh out of the homestead and at the lowest levels of training in their proffesions.
But it IS possible for a Fighter to be rather acceptable with their unarmed attacks with only one or two feats, especially if you throw one of your weapon training selections on Unarmed Combat.
But if you want to make a non monk Main line unarmed combatant then be prepare to spend as many feats on unarmed combat as you would on your other forms of combat if you really want to make yourself good. Your trying to bring an generall non lethal combat form to the level of lethal weapons and that takes extensive and specialised training. Such as pro boxers or M M Artists have.
Remember there was a reason that warriors USED weapons throughout the ages: They KILLED a LOT easier than bare fists did.
Also if you're a half-giant, doesn't that make you Large size? And if so, wouldn't that make your damage 1d4 instead of 1d3?
If they are playig the Half Giant race from XPH then no. They are TREATED as large for many things if it is beneficial for them and they can use LARGE size weapons at no penalty but are still a medium size race.
Although since Armored Gauntlets are a weapon, using Large Armored gauntlets is legal and 1d6 Punchs as a base is not shabby. Take Improved Unarmed Strike and then Superior Unarmed Strike from Book of 9 Swords and even a fighhter can have VERY nice bare handed damage for 2 total feats (and 2 feats to be a decent trained unarmed fighter is pretty damn cheap). Since power attack is a staple of pretty much ANY melee centric fighter I am not counting it as 'necessary' to be a decent unarmed combatant, although some might say it is necessary to be a decnet combatant in general.
It's worth remembering that in the real world punching someone is a poor way to do damage to them. Watch the UFC, the majority of wins aren't by KO, they're won by various kinds of submission holds.
Tell that to Chuck Liddell.
It's worth remembering that in the real world punching someone is a poor way to do damage to them. Watch the UFC, the majority of wins aren't by KO, they're won by various kinds of submission holds.Tell that to Chuck Liddell.
In fairness to Firest, he did say majority and not "every single bout".
In fairness to Firest, he did say majority and not "every single bout".It's worth remembering that in the real world punching someone is a poor way to do damage to them. Watch the UFC, the majority of wins aren't by KO, they're won by various kinds of submission holds.Tell that to Chuck Liddell.
One thing about the UFC, they're not trying to *kill* the other guy. That actually makes it more difficult for a quick take down with a punch, and makes submission holds a better route to go...
*edit* To expand on that there are any number of strikes and moves that are avoided in UFC fights because killing or crippling your opponent is not the goal. It's why I always roll my eyes when people try to compare fighting styles using UFC fight results as a measure of a techniques effectiveness in any but a controlled situation...
I didn't have too much difficulty building a level 5 half-orc fighter with 15 point buy, putting the +2 into Charisma, and getting some decent damage with several weapons including unarmed strike. He can take several attacks in a round with great cleave. His average damage with his unarmed strike is 11. Not bad actually. The feats I took would benefit all his melee weapons, in other words I didn't take Weapon Specialization for unarmed attacks which would give him another +2. Note that I have him using Power Attack and Bloody Assault for every attack.
Male Half-Orc Fighter (Free Hand Fighter) 5
TN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +7; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +0
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DEFENSE
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AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 15. . (+4 armor, +1 Dex, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 49 (5d10+10)
Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +2
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 Battleaxe +9 (1d8+10) and
. . Masterwork Dagger +9 (1d4+9) and
. . Unarmed Strike +8 (1d3+9)
Ranged Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +3) +7 (1d8+3)
Special Attacks Singleton
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STATISTICS
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Str 16/18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +5; CMB +9 (+10 Disarming); CMD 22 (23 vs. Disarm)
Feats Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack +4/-2, Toughness +5
Traits Fast-Talker, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics -1, Bluff +8, Climb +10, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Handle Animal +4, Intimidate +10, Knowledge: Dungeoneering +5, Knowledge: Engineering +5, Ride +3, Stealth -1, Survival +4, Swim +6
Languages Common, Dwarven, Orc
SQ Deceptive Strike +1 (Ex), Elusive +1 (Ex), Orc Ferocity
Combat Gear Masterwork Dagger, Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +3), Arrows, Chain Shirt, +1 Battleaxe; Other Gear Belt of Giant Strength, +2, Cloak of Resistance, +1, Ring of Protection, +1
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Arrows - 0/20
Masterwork Dagger - 0/1
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Cleave If you hit your first target, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus in exchange for -2 AC.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deceptive Strike +1 (Ex) +1 to Disarm CMB/CMD, Bluff checks to feint or create a diversion to hide.
Elusive +1 (Ex) +1 Dodge AC
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Orc Ferocity 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Power Attack +4/-2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Singleton (Ex) +1 to hit and damage when weilding a one-handed melee weapon.
Here he is at level 10. He now also has Vital Strike and Bloody Assault so he can really beat the tar out of someone:
Male Half-Orc Fighter (Free Hand Fighter) 10
TN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +7; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +1
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DEFENSE
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AC 23, touch 17, flat-footed 18. . (+6 armor, +1 Dex, +2 deflection, +4 dodge)
hp 94 (10d10+20)
Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +6
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 Dagger +9/+4 (1d4+13) and
. . +2 Battleaxe +10/+5 (1d8+14) and
. . Unarmed Strike +8/+3 (1d3+12)
Ranged +1 Longbow, Composite (Str +4) +12/+7 (1d8+5)
Special Attacks Singleton, Timely Tip
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STATISTICS
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Str 16/20, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10/12, Cha 10/12
Base Atk +10/+5; CMB +10 (+13 Disarming); CMD 32 (35 vs. Disarm)
Feats Bloody Assault, Cleave, Combat Expertise +/-3, Dodge, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack +6/-3, Smash, Toughness +10, Vital Strike
Traits Fast-Talker, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +0, Bluff +11, Climb +12, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Handle Animal +7, Intimidate +16, Knowledge: Dungeoneering +7, Knowledge: Engineering +7, Ride +8, Stealth +0, Survival +6, Swim +10
Languages Common, Dwarven, Orc
SQ Deceptive Strike +3 (Ex), Elusive +3 (Ex), Orc Ferocity
Combat Gear Arrows, +2 Battleaxe, +1 Dagger, +1 Longbow, Composite (Str +4), +2 Chain Shirt; Other Gear Belt of Giant Strength, +4, Cloak of Resistance, +2, Headband of Mental Prowess, WIS & CHA +2, Ring of Protection, +2
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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+1 Dagger - 0/1
Arrows - 0/20
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Bloody Assault Take -5 to all attacks and maneuvers until your next turn to add 1d4 bleed damage to all weapon melee attacks.
Cleave If you hit your first target, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus in exchange for -2 AC.
Combat Expertise +/-3 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deceptive Strike +3 (Ex) +3 to Disarm CMB/CMD, Bluff checks to feint or create a diversion to hide.
Elusive +3 (Ex) +3 Dodge AC
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Orc Ferocity 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Power Attack +6/-3 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Singleton (Ex) +1 to hit and damage when weilding a one-handed melee weapon.
Smash You overcome obstacles by breaking them.
Timely Tip (Ex) Disarm maneuver as a free action to remove target's shield AC for your next attack.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Here he is at level 15. He now has Improved Vital Strike and some fun feats:
Male Half-Orc Fighter (Free Hand Fighter) 15
TN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +10; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +2
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DEFENSE
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AC 29, touch 21, flat-footed 20. . (+8 armor, +4 Dex, +2 deflection, +5 dodge)
hp 169 (15d10+60)
Fort +17, Ref +13, Will +10
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee +2 Dagger +14/+9/+4 (1d4+16) and
. . +3 Wounding Adamantine Battleaxe +15/+10/+5 (1d8+17) and
. . Unarmed Strike +12/+7/+2 (1d3+14)
Ranged +2 Longbow, Composite (Str +5) +21/+16/+11 (1d8+7)
Special Attacks Interference, Singleton, Timely Tip
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STATISTICS
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Str 16/20, Dex 14/18, Con 14/18, Int 13, Wis 10/12, Cha 10/12
Base Atk +15/+10/+5; CMB +15 (+21 Disarming); CMD 41 (47 vs. Disarm)
Feats Bloody Assault, Cleave, Combat Expertise +/-4, Disarming Strike, Dodge, Fight On, Great Cleave, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Vital Strike, Power Attack +8/-4, Skill Focus: Intimidate, Smash, Toughness +15, Vital Strike
Traits Fast-Talker, Reactionary
Skills Appraise +2, Bluff +16, Climb +13, Diplomacy +2, Disguise +2, Handle Animal +11, Heal +2, Intimidate +28, Knowledge: Dungeoneering +11, Knowledge: Engineering +11, Perception +2, Ride +13, Sense Motive +2, Survival +8, Swim +11
Languages Common, Dwarven, Orc
SQ Deceptive Strike +4 (Ex), Elusive +4 (Ex), Orc Ferocity
Combat Gear Arrows, +4 Fortification, Moderate Chain Shirt, +3 Wounding Adamantine Battleaxe, +2 Dagger, +2 Longbow, Composite (Str +5); Other Gear Belt of Physical Perfection, +4, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Headband of Mental Prowess, WIS & CHA +2, Ring of Protection, +2, Stone of Good Luck (Luckstone)
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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+2 Dagger - 0/1
Arrows - 0/20
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Bloody Assault Take -5 to all attacks and maneuvers until your next turn to add 1d4 bleed damage to all weapon melee attacks.
Cleave If you hit your first target, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus in exchange for -2 AC.
Combat Expertise +/-4 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deceptive Strike +4 (Ex) +4 to Disarm CMB/CMD, Bluff checks to feint or create a diversion to hide.
Disarming Strike Critical hit's confirmation roll is a Disarm maneuver check.
Elusive +4 (Ex) +4 Dodge AC
Fight OnYou can keep fighting even after you should be dead.
Improved Disarm Disarm at +2, without an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Interference (Ex) Disarm or Trip maneuver as a move action to make the target flat-footed.
Orc Ferocity 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Power Attack +8/-4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Singleton (Ex) +1 to hit and damage when weilding a one-handed melee weapon.
Smash You overcome obstacles by breaking them.
Timely Tip (Ex) Disarm maneuver as a free action to remove target's shield AC for your next attack.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
And now for level 20. Here he has some more fun feats that make his attacks even more dangerous and he has a bite that deals 1d4+29 (3d4 if he uses Improved Vital Strike) and he still has more than 300k of gear to buy:
Male Half-Orc Fighter (Free Hand Fighter) 20
TN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +11; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +4
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DEFENSE
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AC 31, touch 22, flat-footed 21. . (+9 armor, +4 Dex, +2 deflection, +6 dodge)
hp 244 (20d10+100)
Fort +24, Ref +18, Will +15
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee +2 Dagger +20/+15/+10/+5 (1d4+22) and
. . +5 Wounding Adamantine Battleaxe +23/+18/+13/+8 (1d8+25) and
. . Bite (Razortusk) +18 (1d4+29) and
. . Unarmed Strike +19/+14/+9/+4 (1d3+21)
Ranged +2 Longbow, Composite (Str +5) +28/+23/+18/+13 (1d8+7)
Special Attacks Interference, Reversal, Singleton, Timely Tip
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STATISTICS
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Str 18/24, Dex 14/20, Con 14/20, Int 13/17, Wis 10/14, Cha 10/14
Base Atk +21/+16/+11/+6; CMB +22 (+31 Disarming+26 Tripping); CMD 50 (57 vs. Disarm52 vs. Trip)
Feats Bloody Assault, Cleave, Combat Expertise +/-6, Disarming Strike, Dodge, Fight On, Great Cleave, Greater Disarm, Greater Trip, Greater Vital Strike, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Vital Strike, Power Attack +12/-6, Razortusk, Skill Focus: Intimidate, Smash, Toughness +20, Vital Strike
Traits Fast-Talker, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +6, Appraise +5, Bluff +27, Climb +16, Diplomacy +4, Disguise +4, Escape Artist +6, Fly +6, Handle Animal +13, Heal +4, Intimidate +32, Knowledge: Dungeoneering +18, Knowledge: Engineering +18, Knowledge: Local +25, Knowledge: Nature +25, Perception +4, Ride +16, Sense Motive +4, Stealth +6, Survival +10, Swim +14
Languages Common, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Orc
SQ Deceptive Strike +5 (Ex), Elusive +5 (Ex), Orc Ferocity, Weapon Mastery: Battleaxe (Ex), Weapon Training: Natural +1 (Ex)
Combat Gear Arrows, +2 Dagger, +2 Longbow, Composite (Str +5), +5 Wounding Adamantine Battleaxe, +5 Fortification, Heavy Chain Shirt; Other Gear Belt of Physical Perfection, +6, Boots of Speed, Cloak of Resistance, +5, Headband of Mental Superiority, +4: Knowledge: Local, Knowledge: Nature, Ioun Stone, Pale Green, Ring of Protection, +2, Stone of Good Luck (Luckstone)
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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+2 Dagger - 0/1
Arrows - 0/20
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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Bloody Assault Take -5 to all attacks and maneuvers until your next turn to add 1d4 bleed damage to all weapon melee attacks.
Cleave If you hit your first target, attack an adjacent target at the same attack bonus in exchange for -2 AC.
Combat Expertise +/-6 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deceptive Strike +5 (Ex) +5 to Disarm CMB/CMD, Bluff checks to feint or create a diversion to hide.
Disarming Strike Critical hit's confirmation roll is a Disarm maneuver check.
Elusive +5 (Ex) +5 Dodge AC
Fight On Note: The effects and prerequisites of this feat have not been implemented yet.
Greater Disarm +2 to disarm, weapon lands 15' away.
Greater Trip +2 to Trip, target provokes AoO when tripped.
Improved Disarm Disarm at +2, without an attack of opportunity.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Interference (Ex) Disarm or Trip maneuver as a move action to make the target flat-footed.
Orc Ferocity 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Power Attack +12/-6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Reversal (Ex) Disarm check as an immediate action changes the target of an attacker to your maneuver's target.
Singleton (Ex) +1 to hit and damage when weilding a one-handed melee weapon.
Smash You overcome obstacles by breaking them.
Timely Tip (Ex) Disarm maneuver as a free action to remove target's shield AC for your next attack.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Weapon Mastery: Battleaxe (Ex) Chosen weapon has an improved critical multiplier, always confirms criticals, and cannot be disarmed.
Weapon Training: Natural +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Natural weapons
I want to play a character that is NOT a monk, and does NOT specialize in unarmed combat, but there seems to be no way of making a simple punch be useful without specializing.
I'm not sure if anyone has said it yet, but if this is what you want to do. You are playing the wrong game.
In D&D and Pathfinder if you want to be better at something then the average joe you have to put feats, equipment, and class abilities towards it. Otherwise what would be the point if everyone was good at everything.
Common misconception, actually. I'm assuming you're referring to the "provokes AOOs" clause, but unless your taverns are regularly full of monks, that doesn't actually matter. Without IUS, you don't threaten with unarmed attacks and thus cannot make AOOs with them. Two people beating each other up with their untrained fists don't provoke from each other for attacking.
Pretty much.
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Although Pathfinder doesn't do a great job of trying to get a person's fists into kill shots, you can modify it as a DM (if you are in that position). In a fantasy game, I don't see why fists couldn't be extremely dangerous (and I don't mean a monk). Create a new feat, or add new mechanics into it if you want. It's your game.
Just keep in mind that PF wasn't designed for it, that's all.
Another thing to keep in mind with Improved Unarmed Strike is that you will always...always count as armed.
This protects you against attacks of opportunity if you are ever without your preferred weapon in hand (+5 Vorpal Depantsening Holy Avenger Strawberry Shortcake Dispensing Adamantine Double Sided Great Axe/Bastard Sword). Normally bringing your pink fists to a knife fight results in a lot of the other guy stabbing you while you try to arm yourself/retrieve a dropped weapon.
And you will always threaten any squares near you without having to make a reach towards your weapon. This will serve to allow for more slapping options when someone tries a (unimproved) combat maneuver on you when you are unarmed, or if they foolishly try to move through an adjacent threatened square, or do anything else that would provoke an A of O. Normally if you are unarmed and not a bearer of Improved Unarmed Strike you threaten 0 squares and don't get to make attacks of opportunity because...well your slaps are just not that scary.
The damage might not seem impressive but the mechanical side effects weigh in pretty heavily to make Improved Unarmed Strike not suck at all.
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I've houseruled that all martial classes get it for free.
Because seriously, it should not cost you a g~+&*#n feat to be able to punch someone. When your characters avoid tavern brawls because the system won't let them participate, there's a flaw in the system.
In no way does the system prevent your characters from participating in a tavern brawl. It does do a decent job of modeling the fact that far less people die in a bare fist drunken fight than in a sword battle, and that most people recover from being bludgeoned by fists much faster than your average stabbing.
Shane
If you really want an unarmed non-monk, the brawler and greater brawler rage powers are helpful- though they only work in a rage, but most barbarians rage when they fight so that's not really a problem. The savage warrior focuses on natural weapons, so it's not a stretch to say that it could focus on unarmed attacks (you just have to say that unarmed attacks count as natural weapons for that purpose).
That said, most warriors don't go into combat unarmed- unless they have a ridiculous amount of training, on that would be represented by class features and feat usage. If you don't want to focus on that, any mêlée focused character should be able to beat up deadbeats in a bar with zero investment. If both you and they are unarmed and neither one of you has the improved unarmed strike feat, no one will provoke AoO- as no one is threatening spaces. If you want to be lethal without investment, go mobster and wear brass knuckles.
Another thing to keep in mind with Improved Unarmed Strike is that you will always...always count as armed.
This protects you against attacks of opportunity if you are ever without your preferred weapon in hand (+5 Vorpal Depantsening Holy Avenger Strawberry Shortcake Dispensing Adamantine Double Sided Great Axe/Bastard Sword). Normally bringing your pink fists to a knife fight results in a lot of the other guy stabbing you while you try to arm yourself/retrieve a dropped weapon.
And you will always threaten any squares near you without having to make a reach towards your weapon. This will serve to allow for more slapping options when someone tries a (unimproved) combat maneuver on you when you are unarmed, or if they foolishly try to move through an adjacent threatened square, or do anything else that would provoke an A of O. Normally if you are unarmed and not a bearer of Improved Unarmed Strike you threaten 0 squares and don't get to make attacks of opportunity because...well your slaps are just not that scary.
The damage might not seem impressive but the mechanical side effects weigh in pretty heavily to make Improved Unarmed Strike not suck at all.
+1. I always try to make room for IUS. Bar fights, any place where you can't carry weapons, the option to take down an opponent without killing them. IUS is a great feat.
One thing about the UFC, they're not trying to *kill* the other guy. That actually makes it more difficult for a quick take down with a punch, and makes submission holds a better route to go...
*edit* To expand on that there are any number of strikes and moves that are avoided in UFC fights because killing or crippling your opponent is not the goal. It's why I always roll my eyes when people try to compare fighting styles using UFC fight results as a measure of a techniques effectiveness in any but a controlled situation...
And again, +1. Trained fighters can often find themselves at a disadvantage in a street fight specifically because they've been trained to NOT strike certain areas or use certain techniques, and therefore are often not trained to expect those same types of attacks. Eyes, throat, groin, knees, back of the head, are all places you don't want to reflexively attack in the ring (or octagon) and don't expect your opponent to attack since doing so would likely result in a disqualification. Those are also the same areas that a real brawler WILL often attack.
Do you really think the PC's would survive a bite from a dragon though?
I got bite by a dragon and I am fine.
I think that the way unarmed attack are done work just fine, it would be cool to have some way of knocking people out with a punch, but really not all the necessary, any normal commoner you could knock out with a punch, even with out improved unarmed strike.
Strange. I've hit a few people in the head in my time. As hard as a skull is, it sort of snaps back when you hit it and takes the edge off. I never broke any knuckles, just a little redness.
Strange. I've hit a few people in the head in my time. As hard as a skull is, it sort of snaps back when you hit it and takes the edge off. I never broke any knuckles, just a little redness.I take it you don't make a habit of it, though? Or maybe you have tough knuckles --- they CAN be trained to withstand the impact.
There is quite a bit of variation in real life - even bone density can go up to ten times higher with some people compared to a baseline, or so I've heard.
There are soft squishy bits on the face....
Nose = soft and lots of blood. As one of my old instructors used to say "you want to end a fight as quickly as possible and making the other guy bleed helps speed the process". He worked the door (security)for a lot of night clubs in the roughest parts of Sydney.
Do you really think the PC's would survive a bite from a dragon though?I got bite by a dragon and I am fine.
"Sure, I jump into the lava and do the backstroke for a round or two. It's only 20d6 hit points.... I'll survive".
I saw a player character in an old 2nd edition game who got picked up and chomped by a dragon and smugly waited for the damage. The DM told him his character was bit in two, much to the player's dismay. When asked why, the DM simply said "It's an enormous and ancient dragon! What did you think was going to happen"?
The fact that a medium character with a strength of 7 has EXACTLY the same effect as a medium character with a strength of 18 using unarmed strike is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Really? I mean, apart from the fact that it's totally not how the rules work, but the dumbest thing? What planet do you live on? Because I'm on Earth, and here there are far more worthy contenders!
Stuff like
is way more stupid. And that's just scratching the surface with famous stupid quotes. I bet people could add far worse ones from personal experience. Like my friend who worked in an electronics store and was asked by a customer where the wood glue is.
I want to play a character that is NOT a monk, and does NOT specialize in unarmed combat, but there seems to be no way of making a simple punch be useful without specializing.
Well, it is a simple punch. We're talking about a game where you wield magical weapons that cut off monsters' heads, or have archers who can shoot off a fly's wings 300 yards away in a storm in a starless night, or wizards with magic spells that call down meteors to annihilate armies, or just get an archangel to do the dirty work for them - and you want to go at it bare handed, without training?
See that red smear over there? That was the last guy who tried that. ;-P
I could use some other secondary weapon, but why can't a punch be effective without having to take more than "improved unarmed strike, I've always thought that that was the worst aspect of D&D is that it forces you into a box with your characters
Pathfinder is actually pretty open with their boxes, but it is still a class-based game, and I don't think that will change before the heat death of the universe.
if you want your character to be effective in one way you have to pour all your skill points and feats into that one thing for at least 10 levels if not 20.
Actually, that's not true: You can specialise, and overspecialise, but I've played, and seen, lots of dabblers who had a wide range of abilities, and were effective at many things.
But If I want to be a fighter who likes to punch people in melee and I don't want to pull a dagger in order to inflict more than 1d3 or even just punch someone hard enough to knock them out without having to take 4 feats to have a chance at it. I CAN'T!
Well, you can. That fighter will just use the monk class.
The game just doesn't have bare-hands martial arts as a core concept, because it's inspired mostly by European history, myth and legends.
I can't afford to take the feats because that compromises the integrity of my characters specialization. But come on people, Im an 8 foot 340lb half-giant and I can tear someone's arms off, but I can't hit them and knock them out?
Not as well as you could cut them to pieces with a greatsword.
How do we make a punch useful? If I "know how to throw a punch" which sure we can say, "you have to take a feat for that" why should I have to take 3 more feats to make it even the slightest bit useful?
Because it's an inferior way of fighting. It's just like in the real world: Humans aren't normally a physically impressive species (we tend to lose against bears, lions, and pretty much everything else that is not a lot smaller than us) but we have a brain, and learned to use tools and weapons. That's our two weapons. Other beasts go for bigger teeth and longer claws, we have small, delicate hands that can grab a rifle and turn pretty much everything into a carcass.
The only way to be actually physically dangerous without those tools is to train, and train, and train.
I saw a player character in an old 2nd edition game who got picked up and chomped by a dragon and smugly waited for the damage. The DM told him his character was bit in two, much to the player's dismay. When asked why, the DM simply said "It's an enormous and ancient dragon! What did you think was going to happen"?
"I though that HP system was there for a reason."
a well trained boxer hits with 1,900lbs per square inch of force, about 2 times the amount of force you feel in a 40 mph car crash and yet they are not monks but i feel this is much more than simply having a the improved unarmed feat.
i gained this info from a program on fighting science, the punch was greater than all the other martial artist there.
a well trained boxer hits with 1,900lbs per square inch of force, about 2 times the amount of force you feel in a 40 mph car crash and yet they are not monks but i feel this is much more than simply having a the improved unarmed feat.
i gained this info from a program on fighting science, the punch was greater than all the other martial artist there.
The "Monk" class can easily be used to represent the "Boxer" profession, especially in a fantasy world.
And, of course the boxer has the strongest punch. That's what boxers do. They punch. They can also ignore the possibility of attacks that don't come from an opponents hands, thus allowing them to concentrate on...punching. Boxers are hyper-specialized martial artists. Within their dominion they reign. Outside it, it's much more "hit and miss." :)