Phew, this thread is depressing. Every "I want my favorite anime/wuxia/Hong-Kong-movie stuff in this" post makes me dread this book, its AP, and its probable support material more.
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The only thing that's depressing to me is that I still can't figure out from this thread, and all the other speculations running around, if this is going to be an "as inpsiring" alternative to the Emerald Empire in Legend of the Five Rings ...
Or am I really going to have to spring for the 4th Edition afterall to get my fix.
I decided my previous post was overly subtle, so I'll be blunt:
I was simply listing things I'd like to see in the fantasy setting of Tian Xia. I was not attempting to fully encapsulate the rich and extensive history, folklore, and peoples of the Asian continent in a few-sentence post. If you find my interest in Japanese mythology (ie, fox spirits, dragons, oni), religion (wu shamanism/Shintoism), or Asian architecture to be "banal," I could not care less.
If you want a historically accurate summary of Asian culture and society, I suggest you pick up a textbook. A fantasy roleplaying game, on the other hand, would probably not be the best place to start. Find samurai or ninja to be somehow offensive? Than by all means, stay away from the classic book Oriental Adventures. Too thin-skinned to read about Oni, wu-jen, or dragons? Than steer clear of the excellent Legend of the Five Rings RPG.
If, on the other hand, you're willing to accept that fantasy depictions of Asia will have elements made famous in historical Asian works such as Romance of the Three Kingdoms, the Ooishi Hyoroku Monogatari Picture Scroll, and a Journey to the West, as well as modern Asian pop culture such as wuxia films, manga, and anime, than by all means, check these and other works out.
My issue with your post is more that we already have L5R, we have a bajillion different "stock fantasy Japans," and that a lot of us would like to see stuff based on other countries :p
will we get new archtypes? new player races? new uses for existing skills? new feats? new spells? new gods? new subdomains?
i beleive that Tian Xia needs a well made 500+ page hardcover with all this stuff in addition to fluff.
If Paizo follows form, the various countries composing Tian Xia will probably get their own Companion books as did Cheliax, Taldor, etc.
i beleive that Tian Xia needs a well made 500+ page hardcover with all this stuff in addition to fluff.
Please, no. It's already enough that the pseudo-Asian stuff will probably be taking up the AP and Chronicles for half a year. To me that is just like replacing Pathfinder with another game. D&D was not Legend of the Five Rings either.
Actually I'd prefer all the stuff including rules in a big World Guide book, and not spread across all the lines, especially the RPG line. One big boo, that I can easily ignore.
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If Paizo follows form, the various countries composing Tian Xia will probably get their own Companion books as did Cheliax, Taldor, etc.
i beleive that Tian Xia needs a well made 500+ page hardcover with all this stuff in addition to fluff.Please, no. It's already enough that the pseudo-Asian stuff will probably be taking up the AP and Chronicles for half a year. To me that is just like replacing Pathfinder with another game. D&D was not Legend of the Five Rings either.
Actually I'd prefer all the stuff including rules in a big World Guide book, and not spread across all the lines, especially the RPG line. One big boo, that I can easily ignore.
I'm not a subscriber, but couldn't you "turn off" your subscriptions while the "pseudo-Asian" stuff is available, then reactivate it when the AP heads to the Mammoth Lands?
I'm not a subscriber, but couldn't you "turn off" your subscriptions while the "pseudo-Asian" stuff is available, then reactivate it when the AP heads to the Mammoth Lands?
I certainly could, but I am a collector, too. Also I think you've got the AP travel order wrong.
If Paizo follows form, the various countries composing Tian Xia will probably get their own Companion books as did Cheliax, Taldor, etc.
i beleive that Tian Xia needs a well made 500+ page hardcover with all this stuff in addition to fluff.Please, no. It's already enough that the pseudo-Asian stuff will probably be taking up the AP and Chronicles for half a year. To me that is just like replacing Pathfinder with another game. D&D was not Legend of the Five Rings either.
Actually I'd prefer all the stuff including rules in a big World Guide book, and not spread across all the lines, especially the RPG line. One big boo, that I can easily ignore.
Oh no, not...non-white people?
...Really?
Phew, this thread is depressing. Every "I want my favorite anime/wuxia/Hong-Kong-movie stuff in this" post makes me dread this book, its AP, and its probable support material more.
Just on that note, what about those of us who are actually Asian?
Oh no, not...non-white people?
...Really?
Please, I have noting against non-white people. I liked having Arabian Nights flavor in Legacy of Fire, and the African flavor currently in Serpent's Skull. Quite a lot actually.
However, the pseudo-Asian stuff, and especially the fantastic variety of asian myths or wuxia ninjas or anime and what not just hold no interest for me whatsoever. And I really don't get all the fanboy freakout over these kind of things. But that has nothing to do at all with color of skin, and actually, I find your remark insulting.
Just on that note, what about those of us who are actually Asian?
I'm not sure what you're saying here?
I'm just saying that with all that coming up, it feels no longer like the Pathfinder RPG to me and looks more like Legends of the Five Rings. To me that's a wholly different game.
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I'm not a subscriber, but couldn't you "turn off" your subscriptions while the "pseudo-Asian" stuff is available, then reactivate it when the AP heads to the Mammoth Lands?I certainly could, but I am a collector, too. Also I think you've got the AP travel order wrong.
Oops. Sorry. Meant the AP after the Tian Xia AP is complete: Ustalav, followed by Tian Xia, followed by Mammoth Lands....
Things I don't want to see:-Ridiculous ninjas who do stupid hand gestures to accomplish over-the-top magic
Hey, at leat the GM is enforcing the gestures, incantations and components rules.
Besides, that's a modern/sf setting, not fantasy.
Oops. Sorry. Meant the AP after the Tian Xia AP is complete: Ustalav, followed by Tian Xia, followed by Mammoth Lands....
Well If I were to susplend my subscriptions, I'd certainly pass on horror fantasy, too, as that doesn't really hold any interest for me either. But then again, I am a collector.
Also, another thing I'd like to see:
-Eunuchs, viziers, warlocks, or preferably, eunuch-vizier-warlocks (aka, the guys who supposedly corrupted the Han dynasty).
I don't want to come off as the PC Police, and I don't mean to single you out, but could we please tread carefully on the whole eunuch=bad guy thing? Thanks.
...could we please tread carefully on the whole eunuch=bad guy thing? Thanks.No.
Specifically, b/c I never said eunuchs were bad guys. However, the Han Dynasty's eunuch court officials are suggested as being a source of that kingdom's corruption and downfall, and so those particular eunuchs are often portrayed as villains.
I understand what you're saying about the historical role of eunuch's in the Han court. I'm merely asking that in offering suggestions on the fictional nations of Tian Xia, that "eunuch" (or any other specific gender role/expression) not become synonymous with non-good and/or evil. For example, please don't make a variation on the Eunuch Warlock PrC found in Oriental Adventures 3.0.
Oh no, not...non-white people?
...Really?
Please, I have noting against non-white people. I liked having Arabian Nights flavor in Legacy of Fire, and the African flavor currently in Serpent's Skull. Quite a lot actually.
However, the pseudo-Asian stuff, and especially the fantastic variety of asian myths or wuxia ninjas or anime and what not just hold no interest for me whatsoever. And I really don't get all the fanboy freakout over these kind of things. But that has nothing to do at all with color of skin, and actually, I find your remark insulting.
We have like a thousand countries based on various different caucasian nations and mythologies. There's no reason to have just one "THIS IS ASIA" country and try to very badly stitch everything together. It's stupid, racist, and makes the game as a whole worse.
Quite frankly, the fact that you immidiately designate it as "Asian myths or wuxia ninjas or anime" all as just one block is precisely why this book needs to be wide scoped and have Companions done afterwards. So that people like you can learn "Oh hey, maybe folks who ain't white actually have different cultures and myths too!"
My issue with your post is more that we already have L5R, we have a bajillion different "stock fantasy Japans," and that a lot of us would like to see stuff based on other countries :p
Look at the Inner Sea region Paizo has published so far. In it, we have analogues for Russia, Egypt, revolutionary France, viking-era Scandanavian countries, assorted Middle-Eastern countries, Italy, Central Africa, England, and more, as well as several nations with no real-world analogue.
What makes people think that Tian Xia will be any less diverse? If you own thePathfinder Campaign Setting book, a quick glance at the Tian Xia section on page 157 would suggest that it will be (as diverse).
Oh no no, I fully expect - and greatly desire - it to be that diverse.
I was again more refering to your list of desires all more or less being "FANTASY JAPAN." ;p
However, the pseudo-Asian stuff, and especially the fantastic variety of asian myths or wuxia ninjas or anime and what not just hold no interest for me whatsoever. And I really don't get all the fanboy freakout over these kind of things. But that has nothing to do at all with color of skin, and actually, I find your remark insulting.
So. They shouldn't do it because *you* don't want them to do it? Narcissistic much?
M
I understand what you're saying about the historical role of eunuch's in the Han court. I'm merely asking that in offering suggestions on the fictional nations of Tian Xia, that "eunuch" (or any other specific gender role/expression) not become synonymous with non-good and/or evil. For example, please don't make a variation on the Eunuch Warlock PrC found in Oriental Adventures 3.0....could we please tread carefully on the whole eunuch=bad guy thing? Thanks.No.
Specifically, b/c I never said eunuchs were bad guys. However, the Han Dynasty's eunuch court officials are suggested as being a source of that kingdom's corruption and downfall, and so those particular eunuchs are often portrayed as villains.
+1.
Nope; not for many months, in fact.
Thank-you kindly for an answer! Not, the answer I may have wanted... but at least now I'm not on the edge of my seat wishing and dreaming in vain. :)
(Ahhhh. Breathing again. Oxxxyygeeennn...)
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Aaargh!
Would people please treat each other with courtesy and respect.
You don't have to agree with someone to have manners.
Every time you post aggressively and/or rudely you reveal something about your character which is rather dispiriting.
I am quite capable of remaining civil when I disagree with someone and I think the rest of the people on this board are quite capable of being polite as well.
So, please, I beg of you, play nice.
We have like a thousand countries based on various different caucasian nations and mythologies. There's no reason to have just one "THIS IS ASIA" country and try to very badly stitch everything together. It's stupid, racist, and makes the game as a whole worse.
Quite frankly, the fact that you immidiately designate it as "Asian myths or wuxia ninjas or anime" all as just one block is precisely why this book needs to be wide scoped and have Companions done afterwards. So that people like you can learn "Oh hey, maybe folks who ain't white actually have different cultures and myths too!"
You misunderstand me. I don't really care if the book will portray all of Tian Xia as just one culture or as a hundred diverse ones. I know there are lots of different cultures in Asia and that they have lots of different myths. But those are myths that I don't care for in my fantasy game as I just can't relate to the mindset belonging to these myths. And please, it really has absolutely nothing to do with color of skin. I find that allegation highly insulting.
So. They shouldn't do it because *you* don't want them to do it? Narcissistic much?
No, but it will be inevitable, that - if the rules for, say, samurai and ninjas, are balanced, which I assume they will be - the fanboys will come out of their holes complaining bitterly that their beloved samurai and ninjas are not as superior to "western" characters as they allegedly have a right to be, that katanas are not at least as good as +5 vorpal swords that do 3d8 damage and so on. That is what I dread most about these books.
And yes, I collect these books, and I would like certainly them to be useful to my game, which Tian Xia books and pseudo-Asian rule books certainly will not.
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So. They shouldn't do it because *you* don't want them to do it? Narcissistic much?No, but it will be inevitable, that - if the rules for, say, samurai and ninjas, are balanced, which I assume they will be - the fanboys will come out of their holes complaining bitterly that their beloved samurai and ninjas are not as superior to "western" characters as they allegedly have a right to be, that katanas are not at least as good as +5 vorpal swords that do 3d8 damage and so on. That is what I dread most about these books.
How much is that different from, say, <INSERT CORE CLASS NAME HERE> fanboys complaining bitterly that their beloved are not superior to everybody due to <INSERT RANDOM ARGUMENT> ? :-)
How much is that different from, say, <INSERT CORE CLASS NAME HERE> fanboys complaining bitterly that their beloved are not superior to everybody due to <INSERT RANDOM ARGUMENT> ? :-)
Not at all. But don't say I didn't warn you.
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How much is that different from, say, <INSERT CORE CLASS NAME HERE> fanboys complaining bitterly that their beloved are not superior to everybody due to <INSERT RANDOM ARGUMENT> ? :-)Not at all. But don't say I didn't warn you.
I'm fully expecting a major flame war over samurai/ninjas/katanas, but at least that's gonna be funny and full of cool links to ninja movie clips on YouTube and OOTS quotes. Or PhD in Physics analysis of katana cutting thru a watermelon.
Unlike, say, the Cleric armor proficiency drama, which wasn't exciting at all.
You misunderstand me. I don't really care if the book will portray all of Tian Xia as just one culture or as a hundred diverse ones. I know there are lots of different cultures in Asia and that they have lots of different myths. But those are myths that I don't care for in my fantasy game as I just can't relate to the mindset belonging to these myths. And please, it really has absolutely nothing to do with color of skin. I find that allegation highly insulting.We have like a thousand countries based on various different caucasian nations and mythologies. There's no reason to have just one "THIS IS ASIA" country and try to very badly stitch everything together. It's stupid, racist, and makes the game as a whole worse.
Quite frankly, the fact that you immidiately designate it as "Asian myths or wuxia ninjas or anime" all as just one block is precisely why this book needs to be wide scoped and have Companions done afterwards. So that people like you can learn "Oh hey, maybe folks who ain't white actually have different cultures and myths too!"
So you can't in any way relate to asian mythology because it's not European...
...But it's in no way due to nationality or heritage.
Um.
What he is saying is he does not like it because he does not like it. It does not matter what race or country if originated from. It is not his cup of tea when it comes to fantasy. Nor something he wishes to pick up or integrate into games he runs.
It really is that simple.
No, but it will be inevitable, that - if the rules for, say, samurai and ninjas, are balanced, which I assume they will be - the fanboys will come out of their holes complaining bitterly that their beloved samurai and ninjas are not as superior to "western" characters as they allegedly have a right to be, that katanas are not at least as good as +5 vorpal swords that do 3d8 damage and so on. That is what I dread most about these books.
So. You have faith in Paizo to make a good, balanced Asian-themed product. Your biggest issue with them doing it is that some yo-yos will come and complain that the stuff in the book isn't uber enough?
Help me understand exactly *how* their complaining affects you materially? And to understand why it should cause you to whinge on and wish that Paizo wasn't going to do a quality book that a lot of reasonable people might like (even if the fanbois don't)?
me <= is not following logic. You can kvetch about anything you want and it doesn't affect me one whit...unless, of course, you managed to talk Paizo out of doing something that I'm interested in buying for the sole reason that you don't want to hear people complain about it.
M
From listening to the Pathfinder podcast it sounds like a lot of the "classes" might be handled by archeytpes. Which sounds GREAT to me.
Paizo podcast?!?
I must say that no one has ever explained to my satisfaction why samurai and ninja need their own classes. Seems to me they can be handled with existing classes needing, at most, the kind of alternate class abilities presented in the APG.
And to my previous comments, I don't dig the Asian-stuff-must-be-1337 crowd much myself...but their existence doesn't mean that I don't want to see Paizo detail the Asian-analogues of Golarian. I'm in the process of making my own Pathfinder-compatible Asian-inspired setting and adventures and I still will buy and enjoy theirs (which will, sadly for me, outsell mine by a factor of ten-thousand to one or so.) I'm almost sure, however, that there won't be ninja and samurai classes in mine...sorry guys.
M
I must say that no one has ever explained to my satisfaction why samurai and ninja need their own classes. Seems to me they can be handled with existing classes needing, at most, the kind of alternate class abilities presented in the APG.
Total agreement. Cavilar,rogue and bastard sword covers the three main "It needs to be better then anything ever made ever!" topics, very easily
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So you can't in any way relate to asian mythology because it's not European...
...But it's in no way due to nationality or heritage.
Um.
Please stop deliberately misinterpreting him so as to accuse him of racism. It's very rude and entirely uncalled for.
I can't relate to my girlfriends love of things that are OMGCUTEPINK! but that doesn't make me a misogynist.
So he/she doesn't 'get' the mythology they have encountered from the region many are blithely calling 'Asia'.
It's worth noting that you haven't called anyone out as a bigot for regarding Asia as purely an Indian Eastern Ocean and Mid-western Pacific region, ignoring Russia, Central Asia and Western Asia.
So maybe we're all working from relatively limited ethno-graphic experience and you should realise that constructing artificial high-horses is beneath you.
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I've done a good job staying out of this debate. Now that it's matured nicely, I'll throw my thoughts out there.
Oriental-themed RPG adventures/settings/source material never has "done it" for me. I just find it uninteresting. That said, I'm glad to see Paizo finally putting something out there for two reasons: 1) people have been asked for it ever since Ameiko showed up in AP1, and 2) once it's done, that will hopefully put at least some of the "OMG! samurais and ninjas!" clamor behind us.
-Skeld
So you can't in any way relate to asian mythology because it's not European...
...But it's in no way due to nationality or heritage.
Um.
Please stop deliberately misinterpreting him so as to accuse him of racism. It's very rude and entirely uncalled for.
I can't relate to my girlfriends love of things that are OMGCUTEPINK! but that doesn't make me a misogynist.
So he/she doesn't 'get' the mythology they have encountered from the region many are blithely calling 'Asia'.
It's worth noting that you haven't called anyone out as a bigot for regarding Asia as purely an Indian Eastern Ocean and Mid-western Pacific region, ignoring Russia, Central Asia and Western Asia.
So maybe we're all working from relatively limited ethno-graphic experience and you should realise that constructing artificial high-horses is beneath you.
The problem lies when you tell you go to stores and demand they not sell OMGCUTEPINK! things because you don't grasp how they work, because you only understand dude stuff and ergo they should listen to you.
If you want Paizo to only sell stuff about white people, fine. But buy up to it.
I totally agree with the last poster's first sentence. Not so much with the second. Look, I really don't think anybody's really trying to make this about race. From the comments I've read it's mostly a knee-jerk reaction to fanboism/nerd rage...which, to me, is just about as bad as the thing they're reacting to. So, maybe drop the indignation/race card stuff. Nobody has said anything terribly offensive along those lines and I'm sure a mod would excise it if they had.
M
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The problem lies when you tell you go to stores and demand they not sell OMGCUTEPINK! things because you don't grasp how they work, because you only understand dude stuff and ergo they should listen to you.
If you want Paizo to only sell stuff about white people, fine. But buy up to it.
You should stop using that "Professor" part of your nickname, really.
Which brings me to my point. Eventually, Paizo is going to hit every major fantasy trope, with gothic horror and Southeastern Asian-themed among them. Don't like one or both of these? Well fortunately for you, each will only last for 6 months, then it's on to something else.
A second point. Will the Jade Reageant AP (and related material) include themes from Japan? It's certainly possible. Your average American is far more familiar with Japanese storytelling because of things like anime, manga, and video games (Okami!), and so there will be a certain expectation to see Japanese themes. This is not b/c of prejudice against other cultures and peoples, but rather, a result of Americans having had far more cultural exchange with Japan (and increasingly, China) than, say, Cambodia, Korea, Tibet, or Mongolia.
I, for one, would more than welcome an exploration of the myths and folklore of non-Japanese/Chinese southeast Asian countries in an RPG. I'm sure these countries have just as much to offer, and would prove just as fascinating a source of material for an RPG. But that doesn't mean I don't also want to see dragons, oni, samurai, kitsune, and the like.
+1
Personally I find the fear that Paizo is going to make things too "Wuxia" is a bit silly. Pathfinder characters can already do fantastic feats. Not just the monk or spellcasters but even the "mundane" fighter, even without any magical equipment can do some amazing things.
You should stop using that "Professor" part of your nickname, really.The problem lies when you tell you go to stores and demand they not sell OMGCUTEPINK! things because you don't grasp how they work, because you only understand dude stuff and ergo they should listen to you.
If you want Paizo to only sell stuff about white people, fine. But buy up to it.
When you can find another professor from Gensokyo who is better versed in science, then I shall consider it.
Personally, I'm curious how religion is done. I want to see something a little different than the standard gods, perhaps numerous local gods you might actually meet, and detailed Philosophies you can believe in.
I have a bit of a soft spot for fox fairies (I have a nearly completed write up of the Hu Hsien from OA (1st ed.) that I've been tinkering with for Pathfinder. I think exploring their dark side, as in the Chinese version or Korean is more interesting than prankish Kitsune, myself, but they are obviously all the same race).
I also am interested if there are Kunlun and Penglai analogues -- god-realms on Golarion.
For something completely different, the weird early 20th century Western ideas about Shambhala, Agarttha, and the pulp version, Leng, are all cool. A sense of the Chinese world view of the center as being orderly and safe and the exterior borders being the realm of monsters is kind of interesting.
I am looking forward to this, but I hope the Japanese influence is muted; I really feel it's already been done in many games.
In one of my homebrew settings set in the mythical 5th century of our world I really enjoyed interpreting the thoroughly depraved Liu Song dynasty (it had a bad rep in history, so much that I considered re-setting Council of Thieves there). Daji, the fox spirit who caused the downfall of the Shang is also interesting.
Creative Director
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First of all.. folks need to ease back on jumping to conclusions or getting all up in each other's grill. The purpose of the messageboards here at paizo.com is to have fun, not to devolve into internet hate and grief. So be nice to each other!
As for Tian Xia, we are indeed going to do a big book about this continent next year. Said book has NOT had much revealed about it, but it's going to be done in a very similar way to how we did up the Inner Sea region. AKA: It will have regions inspired by real-world areas (such as Japan, China, Korea, Cambodia, etc.) AND will have regions that are brand new that are NOT inspired by real-world regions.
The Jade Regent Adventure Path will be most focused on the region of Tian Xia known as Minkai, which is our Japan analogue, so you can expect lots of samurai, ninjas, dragons, animal spirits, scary ghosts, and other fantasy Japan tropes to pop up quite a lot. There may well be elements from other parts of Tian Xia involved in the AP as well, but since it's focused on "Japan" that'll be that.
There'll also be some other Tian Xia themed products as well that will explore other regions of this continent.
This is the first time we've really moved out of the Inner Sea region in such a significant way, and it's kind of new ground for us. We'll be watching how folks react pretty closely to these products once this time next year rolls around, since that'll help us decide on when and if we want to go to other parts of Golarion.
But right now is a bit early to start getting too worked up about what we're doing. By all means drop by and let us know what types of elements you're interested in seeing show up in Tian Xia, but please try not to disrespect each other when you do.
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First of all.. folks need to ease back on jumping to conclusions or getting all up in each other's grill. The purpose of the messageboards here at paizo.com is to have fun, not to devolve into internet hate and grief. So be nice to each other!
As for Tian Xia, we are indeed going to do a big book about this continent next year. Said book has NOT had much revealed about it, but it's going to be done in a very similar way to how we did up the Inner Sea region. AKA: It will have regions inspired by real-world areas (such as Japan, China, Korea, Cambodia, etc.) AND will have regions that are brand new that are NOT inspired by real-world regions.
The Jade Regent Adventure Path will be most focused on the region of Tian Xia known as Minkai, which is our Japan analogue, so you can expect lots of samurai, ninjas, dragons, animal spirits, scary ghosts, and other fantasy Japan tropes to pop up quite a lot. There may well be elements from other parts of Tian Xia involved in the AP as well, but since it's focused on "Japan" that'll be that.
There'll also be some other Tian Xia themed products as well that will explore other regions of this continent.
This is the first time we've really moved out of the Inner Sea region in such a significant way, and it's kind of new ground for us. We'll be watching how folks react pretty closely to these products once this time next year rolls around, since that'll help us decide on when and if we want to go to other parts of Golarion.
But right now is a bit early to start getting too worked up about what we're doing. By all means drop by and let us know what types of elements you're interested in seeing show up in Tian Xia, but please try not to disrespect each other when you do.
W00t!
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Phew, this thread is depressing. Every "I want my favorite anime/wuxia/Hong-Kong-movie stuff in this" post makes me dread this book, its AP, and its probable support material more.
I'm curious to hear how you think we might be able to pull it off in a way that you wouldn't dread, but would actually look forward to.