I just got this book a day ago, and have been very impressed with this volume. One thing that bugs me so far though ... there's not a single mention of using Virtual Table-top software.
You'd think that in pages such as 39 & 40, when it's giving tips on how to run smooth combats, for example, that VTTs would merit some mention. AFter all, Maptool and the PF framework handles all this stuff: tokens, conditions, die rolls and initiative tracking.
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I just got this book a day ago, and have been very impressed with this volume. One thing that bugs me so far though ... there's not a single mention of using Virtual Table-top software.
You'd think that in pages such as 39 & 40, when it's giving tips on how to run smooth combats, for example, that VTTs would merit some mention. AFter all, Maptool and the PF framework handles all this stuff: tokens, conditions, die rolls and initiative tracking.
Look on page 45. They have a short block about online games.
:)
Look on page 45. They have a short block about online games.
:)
Hmm ... well, yeah, but there's a world of difference between playing an RPG on a chat, like IRC, and using a VTT. The text on pg 45 could have been written 10 years ago. I'm just astounded that there's no mention at all of VTTs.
Well, I may have missed something, but from what I have seen most VTTs are at least one of the following:
a) Not finished
b) Not user friendly
C) Not cheap
Consequently, they aren't all that mainstream in the gaming community yet. Additionally, Paizo probably doesn't want to endorse one over others (though I don't represent them, so could be wrong), and giving examples might appear to do that.
Edit: That said, I just looked up MapTool - it does look pretty cool. Still researching, is there a way to save the map and link to it so you can use it for forum based play?
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Well, I may have missed something, but from what I have seen most VTTs are at least one of the following:
a) Not finished
b) Not user friendly
C) Not cheapConsequently, they aren't all that mainstream in the gaming community yet. Additionally, Paizo probably doesn't want to endorse one over others (though I don't represent them, so could be wrong), and giving examples might appear to do that.
Edit: That said, I just looked up MapTool - it does look pretty cool. Still researching, is there a way to save the map and link to it so you can use it for forum based play?
I've used it before in such a manner. You can export screenshots and upload or link them in forum posts pretty easily.
I've been using Maptool for a few years now (and OpenRPG for a few before that), and I'll have to disagree somewhat on your points.
a) Many of the VTT's are continuously developing programs. I'm sure an RPTools Dev and a Gametable Dev will both tell you that their program constantly needs to evolve to meet the needs of the ever growing community. Maptool, for instance, has a 'done' release, but it also has a 'development' release which is the building blocks for the next version. Think of it as Windows, where you have your 'done' windows XP, but theres also an 'in development' version available that is updated over the course of many months, and eventually becomes 'done' windows 7.
b) Both of the programs that I have used extensively (Maptool and OpenRPG) are medium user friendly. The chat interfaces are usually simple, and basic html syntax and dice rolling syntax are really easy to grasp. Both of them, though, have a dark and sinister side of having near an unlimited upward limit of complexity, if you want to venture there. You can either choose to do the smart thing and use the base model, making basic macros that never change, or you can say goodbye to free time and code your own python plugins for OpenRPG or make 1000 line long java applets that create and modify properties for your mini on Maptool.
c) There are both free and for-pay services in this regard, as there is in nearly every software industry. Quality may not always follow the for-pay products, however. Last time I looked around, there were a number of options on both sides of the fence, though.
I'm really hoping that they become more mainstream as time goes on. As it stands now, theres about 20x more the community using VTT's now than there was in 2007 (and waaaaaay more than there was in '05). Maybe by 2013 it will increase that much again. Wizard's made a bold attempt to bring VTT's more mainstream with their 4e virtual table that never happened. Maybe if it had there would be more exposure for VTT's.
Anyway, there's my 2cp
Paizo should put out a Pathfinder Framework for maptools. ;)
Skester
Hear hear!!!
Actually, there's a PF framework already on the rptools.net forums that's really good and not terribly complex. It may be awhile, though, before it has stuff from the APG in it.
What I'd love Paizo to do is sell a package that has all their AP materials in .cmpgn file format (the file format Maptool uses). Having all the tokens with maps with vision blocking & info markers (can be used in lieu of read-aloud text) would be so awesome. I would pay for this on top of my AP subscription.
And, while we're at it, why not throw in .cmpgn files for the modules, too? No harm in dreaming, right?
I don´t see the point of devoting space to this,
since it would essentially have to be a product review of the various programs currently available,
which obviously is going to be out of date in a year or so (and updating each printing just for this is probably not Paizo´s cup of tea).
I´m sure plenty of Paizoans ARE really interested in this type of thing, even if it isn´t at their weekend games yet. ...Basically, I don´t think ´mentioning´ VTT´s is the most important thing they could have used an extra page for. THe purpos of the GMG is not really to advertise cool RPG related products, and anybody familiar with these products doesn´t really need to read a blurb summarizing their function. The makers of these products should have on their own website have a decent summary of their function and how they might enhance a game experience.
I don´t see the point of devoting space to this,
since it would essentially have to be a product review of the various programs
Well, they spent space mentioning their own products, such as the APs, Gamemastery Cards, etc. Mind you, I don't fault them for that. But, certainly specific products are pointed to in the GMG. Are you saying non-Paizo products shouldn't be referenced in Paizo's books?
You can mention VTTs in general as well as describe their potential without throwing out specific brands or pieces of software. It's simply astounding to me that, when describing online games, we get a couple of paragraphs on using the Internet that could have been written over a decade ago! But, we don't get a single word on the potential of VTTS (in general, not specific software).
It's a crying shame, really. VTTs take so much work out of playing PF ... how could they not at least throw in a mention or two?
One of my only issues with MapTool is that its of moderate user-friendliness.
Personally, I have been for some time using Pygon's (a forum and Chat regular) TTopRPG. Its very user friendly, even for beginners.
Maptool is better for building maps in, but if you are building maps elsewhere and want to upload them into the VTT, TTop works great. Pygon also updates it rather regularly as well.
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If I were to buy a Bob Villa book on various carpentry projects, I would expect to have plans that describe how to build the project as well as a shopping list of materials. But I would also want to hear Bob's opinion on the best Dremel-like tool available, or if there's a way to cut in half the time needed for some category of project I'd want to hear about that too (such as creating jigs for common jobs).
That's what they did with their own products, but they chose to keep quite about VTTs. I can understand that on a certain level -- they're obviously more familiar with their own stuff. But to not even mention that these tools exist?! I'd be extremely disappointed if Bob's carpentry book did the same thing.
Of course, I'm a bit biased. ;)
If I were to buy a Bob Villa book on various carpentry projects, I would expect to have plans that describe how to build the project as well as a shopping list of materials. But I would also want to hear Bob's opinion on the best Dremel-like tool available, or if there's a way to cut in half the time needed for some category of project I'd want to hear about that too (such as creating jigs for common jobs).
That's what they did with their own products, but they chose to keep quite about VTTs. I can understand that on a certain level -- they're obviously more familiar with their own stuff. But to not even mention that these tools exist?! I'd be extremely disappointed if Bob's carpentry book did the same thing.
Of course, I'm a bit biased. ;)
The problem with that is that no one knows how long Maptools, et. al. will exist in their current state. Discussing current VTT trends in the GMG would really date the book. Imagine if they discussed play-by-post (mail, that is). Long distance gaming via the internet is a relatively new paradigm, yet look how it's evolved in its short history: email and IRC to forum to VTT...I remember trying to work out a dice-rolling bot for mIRC back in 1997. What a pain in the ass that was. Who knows where it will go in the future?
Zo
The problem with that is that no one knows how long Maptools, et. al. will exist in their current state. Discussing current VTT trends in the GMG would really date the book.
No, it wouldn't. And, to be clear, I wasn't saying that they needed to get into an extended discussion of the latest offerings from any specific software. Rather mentioning that such software exists, and stating their potential in broad terms, would have been sufficient.
Imagine an accounting textbook that says nothing about spreadsheets. The textbook doesn't need to get granular into the specifics about MS Excel, but you would expect it to talk about spreadsheets in general terms.
Imagine if they discussed play-by-post (mail, that is).
They did. Check out pg 45, 2nd paragraph, first sentence.
Long distance gaming via the internet is a relatively new paradigm, yet look how it's evolved in its short history: email and IRC to forum to VTT...I remember trying to work out a dice-rolling bot for mIRC back in 1997. What a pain in the ass that was. Who knows where it will go in the future?
Well, what's your timescale? After all, RPGs themselves are a 'relatively new paradigm', being about 40 years old. They're younger than rock & roll, Monopoly, or Twinkies.
What could the GMG have said about VTTs? How about something like: "VTTs let you move tokens around on an electronic map, and often feature dice rollers, chat, and sharing of miscellaneous information like NPC images and player handouts." ???
That's something that's been true for about a decade now, and will likely be true for many years hence. And, if by some miracle, we're soon all playing RPGs on some kind of Star Trek holodeck, and this edition of the GMG is horribly scared and dated from a single sentence like I just gave, ... well, a 2nd printing is always an option, isn't it?
[...]Discussing current VTT trends in the GMG would really date the book.
Imagine if they discussed play-by-post (mail, that is).
Bolded for clarity of meaning.
Long distance gaming via the internet is a relatively new paradigm [...]
Well, what's your timescale?
The same timescale as that of the software industry responsible for the development of said VTT software.
I agree that not mentioning the existence of VTT software wasn't a smart move, but mentioning specifics *would have* dated the book.
Zo
I'd like to hear more about which VTTs you are using, and what you think would be worth paying for in a commercial .cmpgn file.
As I'm sure everyone can understand, not including mention of virtual tabletops in the GMG was not meant as a snub against those who use such programs. Rather, details in the book on using all manner of electronic, online, and technical tools in your game is purposefully limited. We discussed mentioning specific programs, websites, and other similar tools in this book, but the truth of the matter is that this technology changes so fast that anything we might have written would likely be outdated in a mater of months. Providing websites doesn't work, as we have no control over those changing. We can't note specific programs that we don't own, and even if we could, can't guarantee they'll be around or relevant for readers of the book in even a few months time. Even noting specific technology risks making a book laughably dated in short order. (Do you really want to read the useful tools chapter of a book that goes into how you might use cassettes and floppy disks in your game?. Conversely, we could have noted using iPads and Surface in gaming, but at some point the discussion needs to end and can't be expected to be all inclusive. )
On the matter of virtual tabletops, these programs vary widely in capability and usability. Also lacking a breakout leader, they are quite difficult to define.
Thus, with all of these restrictions, our coverage of virtual tabletops would likely read as follows:
"Game Masters might also make use of virtual tabletop programs, online game-hosting programs connecting multiple players. Many of these programs allow you to chat, roll dice, integrate multimedia elements, and more depending on the program."
Again, this isn't meant as a snub against users of such programs, and I'm not trying to be hyperbolic about this, but with our restrictions and the variability of the subject matter, that's about all we might have put in - and all that really says is "programs exist" and "they do things."
So that's why it's not in there - but ultimately all the explanations and restrictions of book publishing and business decisions in the world don't make this Un-Lame. (Easier to understand I hope, but not un-lame.)
Even more importantly, this doesn't help out the GM who might want to use virtual tabletops in his game. So, from here, how about folks paste in links and notes on their favorite VTTs. The GMG is meant to be all about aiding Game Masters and I'd love anyone who comes from it to this discussion to find something more useful than notes what didn't get explored.
So what ya'll got? If I'm going to use a VTT, what should I use and why?
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Well I use D20pro. I did look at some of the others like MapTool which being free to me was a great selling point but after loading it up looked fairly difficult to use and reading instructions and direction is BLASHEMY. I also looked at Fantasy Grounds which looks really nice and has some really cool features the price threw me off a bit.
I settled with D20pro for the reasons that it is really really easy to use, the forums and creators are extremely helpful and willing to help, the price although not free is reasonable, and the D20pro is constantly adding in user suggested features and ideas. It is cross platform PC MAC LINUX.
D20pro has now given me many more opportunities to play the wonderful game of Pathfinder that I would never of had before. I truly think that in a few years VTT'S will come into their own and be the dominate form of Roleplaying.
Well I use D20pro. I did look at some of the others like MapTool which being free to me was a great selling point but after loading it up looked fairly difficult to use and reading instructions and direction is BLASHEMY. I also looked at Fantasy Grounds which looks really nice and has some really cool features the price threw me off a bit.
I settled with D20pro for the reasons that it is really really easy to use, the forums and creators are extremely helpful and willing to help, the price although not free is reasonable, and the D20pro is constantly adding in user suggested features and ideas. It is cross platform PC MAC LINUX.
D20pro has now given me many more opportunities to play the wonderful game of Pathfinder that I would never of had before. I truly think that in a few years VTT'S will come into their own and be the dominate form of Roleplaying.
I also use D20Pro in conjunction with Skype for a successful online gaming experience with my friends. I also balked at the price of Fantasy Grounds though must say what I've seen of it looks very polished (one of my friends recommend it). There are certainly some decent free VTT's out there such as Maptools provided you're willing to put a bit of time into learning them and possibly tinkering.
The bottom line is that there is not one right answer. I think there are multiple quality VTT's now out in the market to suit every gamer. It just comes down to personal taste and budget.
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I also use D20Pro in conjunction with Skype for a successful online gaming experience with my friends. I also balked at the price of Fantasy Grounds though must say what I've seen of it looks very polished (one of my friends recommend it). There are certainly some decent free VTT's out there such as Maptools provided you're willing to put a bit of time into learning them and possibly tinkering.
The bottom line is that there is not one right answer. I think there are multiple quality VTT's now out in the market to suit every gamer. It just comes down to personal taste and budget.
I'm one of those who DIDN'T balk at the price of Fantasy Grounds II. The price-point was less of a problem with me than it seems to be for most. Between my 4 players and myself, it came to less than $20 each. The choice basically came down to functionality and look & feel.
Fantasy Grounds II and Maptools both had the functionality, some would argue Maptools is almost TOO flexible! :-P I play a mix of 3.5 home-brew, Pathfinder, and Savage Worlds (with the occasional Warhammer FRP 1st Ed thrown in). When I was looking, these were the only two I could find that a) played all of the game systems; and b) were frequently updated/supported. Maptools was, of course, free, which was a plus in it’s direction.
Where they differed was on focus. The focus of Maptools (at least at the time) was on the map, while the focus of Fantasy Grounds was on the character sheet. Over time, they’ve both made inroads towards each other’s focus, but like everyone who makes a decision; I’ve stopped following the development of the one I didn’t go with.
As c873788 said, no 2 playgroups are the same, no one VTT will be right for every group. FGII was more "us". Another group of friends with a more battlefield-view approach to RPG gaming I specifically pointed at Maptools, because I thought it would fit their style of gaming better. Every one of the VTT companies I’ve come across offers either free or a trial version of their software. I encourage everyone to try to find what works for them.
If you’d like to see how FG works as a player, feel free to drop by the forums and ask. There’s several people (including me… same profile name there, too) who’d be willing to run you through a game.
haven't run anything in a long time ... when I did initiative tool was still a separate program from maptools. So my knowledge is thoroughly outdated.
Indeed. MapTool (by default) has an integrated initiative panel, which lets you add tokens off the map to an initiative cycle, and a few other init functions beyond that.
This might be a good time to mention that I use MapTool 1.3b63 and have very few stability issues. I can't really speak for the later builds.
I use Maptool. If you play an RPG that has a 'framework', a collection of community-created macros for a specific game, then you can do wonderful things with Maptool.
PF does indeed have a framework and it makes gameplay so easy. Maptool and its frameworks are all freeware. I simply cannot imagine ever going back to an old fashioned battlemat again.
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I have not made the jump into VTTs though imagine they could VERY useful for gaming.
One of the things that puts me off is the concept that they support various game systems. I DON'T want a system to support specific game systems at all. That means its more of a hassle to houserule, and fudge the rules (as GM).
ALL I want is something to show a map, move tokens, and roll dice. VOIP would be nice but not required as I can use Skype for that. Rules systems are left to the humans. I want humans making all of the decisions, not a computer.
I do not want a computer that runs the game for me. For example, I like PC generators... to a degree. PCGen is really really cool... until I get to custom made spells, or items... then I have to go in and code stuff that takes three seconds to do on a real character sheet. I want to SAVE time, not spend more time on programming yet another "simple" aid.
Now, laptops and computers are nice and all, but I have decided they are too bulky and too much a pain at the gaming table. Yeah even laptops are too big. The largest thing I want to mess with now is my iPad. I don't need a power supply, and it actually takes up less space than a hardback book while containing over 200 books, 2000 songs (useful for soundtracks at the gaming table) and dozens of movies (useful when the mage decides he wants to spend the next half hour of my life looking at his spells while I wait for my turn)!
Wanna REALLY get me into VTTs? Run it on my iPhone. In the palm of my hand gaming. Wanna game while walking down the street on your way to the subway, or while hanging out in the mall, or while wasting your life away at work? Game on your phone! :)
Also, if it HAS to be on a computer, it should be cross platform. I use a Mac, a few friends are still in the last century and use WIndows (shudder) and one likes Linux. Can't meet all our needs, kiss it goodbye, as it's not even an option.
Basically, I am looking for a system that lets the people make the decisions and the program provides SIMPLE tools. Get it to work on an iPad or iPhone (or if one MUST insists on using inferior equipment an Android or Blackberry might be acceptable as options for the lower classes). Design that and I think VTTs finally come into the market as viable. Right now they are still really primitive and difficult to work with.
[NOTE the cracking on inferior pieces of equipment such as WIndows, Android and Blackberry is meant in jest... mostly] :)
[EDIT: just looked up Surface from Microsoft. Looks super cool but looks to be a pain in the a$$ to put in my backpack or pocket. I can't imagine trying to set five of these around the living room or carry one on the bus. Honestly if that is what they have to offer, I think they should change their name to MACROsoft. :) ]
I am confused as to why it would...
Krome, I really don't wish to evangelize MapTool too much (I am always curious to know what other VTTs have to offer), but it is "system agnostic" and really sounds like it meets most of the requirements you lay out. Certainly it provides the baseline functionality you are asking for.
I am skeptical about the iPhone's use in gaming myself, but many people are interested in it, and some work has been done to this effect for MapTool as well.
So, if you're waiting for the software you describe in your post (the first three paragraphs anyway) look no further. That software exists and is available for free.
As far as replicating the tabletop feel without Laptops, myself and others have had great success with a projector mounted above or below the gaming table. This gives you all the advantages of VTT play (vision and lighting, vision and lighting, and also vision and lighting) while keeping the awesomeness of huddling together over the same battlemap and tossing dice.
If you can afford a single Wiimote and you have a bluetooth enabled computer, you can try the Multitouch Whiteboard trick. It's an order of magnitude cheaper than a multitouch surface, and there are several free applications available on multiple OSes that will help you get this done. This trick works reasonably well with MapTool Projection (although the GM probably still needs a monitor as his GM screen)
I love VTT play, and I would love to see you try it out.
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Krome, I really don't wish to evangelize MapTool too much (I am always curious to know what other VTTs have to offer), but it is "system agnostic" and really sounds like it meets most of the requirements you lay out. Certainly it provides the baseline functionality you are asking for.
I am skeptical about the iPhone's use in gaming myself, but many people are interested in it, and some work has been done to this effect for MapTool as well.
So, if you're waiting for the software you describe in your post (the first three paragraphs anyway) look no further. That software exists and is available for free.
As far as replicating the tabletop feel without Laptops, myself and others have had great success with a projector mounted above or below the gaming table. This gives you all the advantages of VTT play (vision and lighting, vision and lighting, and also vision and lighting) while keeping the awesomeness of huddling together over the same battlemap and tossing dice.
If you can afford a single Wiimote and you have a bluetooth enabled computer, you can try the Multitouch Whiteboard trick. It's an order of magnitude cheaper than a multitouch surface, and there are several free applications available on multiple OSes that will help you get this done. This trick works reasonably well with MapTool Projection (although the GM probably still needs a monitor as his GM screen)
I love VTT play, and I would love to see you try it out.
Sounds interesting...
I have looked at MapTools, and got annoyed real fast. I had to watch several videos and check out the "manual" several times to do basic things. It was not very "intuitive." At least to me. But then none of the VTTs so far have been very intuitive (to me). Maybe I should look again and be ready to spend a couple hours learning the system and ready to teach it to my friends.
The purpose for me, for a VTT is long distance gaming. When we gather around a table I still prefer a battle map, or better yet a map I made in Photoshop. A VTT would be useful to project a digital map. But we have limitations (such as a ceiling that is too low for an overhead projector) that make it less than favorable.
Right now, I use my iPhone and most recently my iPad for nearly all of my gaming. Even at a table. It has all the rules, dice rollers, and music (and movies!). I can carry it anywhere so can play anywhere anytime.
After using the iPad I have no doubts it can run an app to host a map, and allow players to move tokens and track initiative. An iPhone is more limited, but I don't think those few things are rocket science and computer intensive (especially compared to some of the HD interactive games out there).
Heck I THINK I can do it anyway just using Numbers. I already have an iPad character sheet using Numbers. I can easily make it such that there are tabs for each map. The GM copies in the Map, and tokens, and simply activates the tab to bring up the map and tokens. Each token is on its own table and the tokens can be moved around no problem. I can add an easy interactive table on the side to track initiative even. BUT I have no idea how to make it interact with other users so the players can see and interact with it as well. But I can make it such that it would work at a game where it is connected to a projector.
Mmmmm okay now you gave me something to work on... dang it anyway!
lol
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Yeppers done it.
I added a tab for a map.
Put the battle map in first.
Copy tokens to the side of the map.
In play you can copy the tokens to resize them to fit each map.
You keep the original tokens to the side and rearrange them for initiative order.
Import tokens for conditions and effects.
Drag and drop them where ever you want.
No dice rolling yet... I'll get it though!
Still no idea how to make it interactive between iPads...
any iPad gurus out there that can help?
Just to say the Paizo does give some support for VTT, they allowed us as a 3PP to create an adventure module "Breaking of Fostor Nagar" for MapTool (we hope to have versions for Fantasy Grounds and TTopRpg) this is not covered by the standard compatibility licence and we are very grateful for them to be so accommodating.
BoFN is in editing right now (by Paizo's Mark Moreland), and we are expecting to go into layout mid September.
Just to say the Paizo does give some support for VTT, they allowed us as a 3PP to create an adventure module "Breaking of Fostor Nagar" for MapTool (we hope to have versions for Fantasy Grounds and TTopRpg) this is not covered by the standard compatibility licence and we are very grateful for them to be so accommodating.
BoFN is in editing right now (by Paizo's Mark Moreland), and we are expecting to go into layout mid September.
Send up fireworks when it's done, I'm gonna get in on that!
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As I'm sure everyone can understand, not including mention of virtual tabletops in the GMG was not meant as a snub against those who use such programs. Rather, details in the book on using all manner of electronic, online, and technical tools in your game is purposefully limited. We discussed mentioning specific programs, websites, and other similar tools in this book, but the truth of the matter is that this technology changes so fast that anything we might have written would likely be outdated in a mater of months. Providing websites doesn't work, as we have no control over those changing. We can't note specific programs that we don't own, and even if we could, can't guarantee they'll be around or relevant for readers of the book in even a few months time. Even noting specific technology risks making a book laughably dated in short order. (Do you really want to read the useful tools chapter of a book that goes into how you might use cassettes and floppy disks in your game?. Conversely, we could have noted using iPads and Surface in gaming, but at some point the discussion needs to end and can't be expected to be all inclusive. )
+1!