Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game

Starfinder


Pathfinder Society


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Dr. Strangelob and Mr. Hyde: The Ogre's Guide to Alchemists


Advice

1 to 50 of 258 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
Shadow Lodge

6 people marked this as a favorite.

An in depth guide to all the ins and outs of a unique and cool class. I've worked hard in an effort to make this as useful as Treantmonk's guides.
.
.
.

The guide is broken into 4 parts.

Introduction
Alchemists Extracts - All about the extracts alchemists drink to get their power.
Dr. Strangelob - How I learned to stop worrying and Lob The Bomb.
Mr. Hyde - Strangelob's (more?) demented alter ego.

There are still some rough edges and parts I want to expand but I think it's quite useful as it stands.

Please give me feedback so I can make it better!

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Ogre - the links in the OP are throwing to the Paizo front page. Its possible to find the links by copying the last bit, but probably needs fixing.

I like the way you've explained the different option colours though

Shadow Lodge

Links above are fixed, thanks.

The colors are inherited from the way Treantmonk did his guides.


0gre wrote:

Links above are fixed, thanks.

The colors are inherited from the way Treantmonk did his guides.

Nice job, 0gre! I've often found myself nodding at your surmises on mechanical issues, and I know you also have a passion for the Alchemist class, so I'm glad to be beaten to the punch with this guide (I had said in another thread that I'd make one, so you saved me a lot of time). What it lacks in humour, as you pointed out, it makes up in conciseness--the Alchemist is a complicated class, so having everything out neatly and quickly is a good idea.

I agree with most of it and won't dwell on any particular points on which I disagree, but I saw a mistake--Dispelling Bombs don't do damage. From what I've seen of your posts in the other Alchemist thread, you are probably like me and imagined with eagerness having bombs that did damage and dispelled from the moment JB announced the new discovery--I was sure I needed to fit that in my Alchemist build. It took me a while to figure out that it doesn't work like that, and since dispelling has been weakened so much in Pathfinder, I decided I didn't care for the Discovery as much any more.

~RE

Shadow Lodge

Rogue Eidolon wrote:
0gre wrote:

Links above are fixed, thanks.

The colors are inherited from the way Treantmonk did his guides.

Nice job, 0gre! I've often found myself nodding at your surmises on mechanical issues, and I know you also have a passion for the Alchemist class, so I'm glad to be beaten to the punch with this guide (I had said in another thread that I'd make one, so you saved me a lot of time). What it lacks in humour, as you pointed out, it makes up in conciseness--the Alchemist is a complicated class, so having everything out neatly and quickly is a good idea.

Thanks... lots of material to cover.... and there is more yet, particularly on Mr. Hyde and the Master Chymst.

Quote:
I agree with most of it and won't dwell on any particular points on which I disagree, but I saw a mistake--Dispelling Bombs don't do damage. From what I've seen of your posts in the other Alchemist thread, you are probably like me and imagined with eagerness having bombs that did damage and dispelled from the moment JB announced the new discovery--I was sure I needed to fit that in my Alchemist build. It took me a while to figure out that it doesn't work like that, and since dispelling has been weakened so much in Pathfinder, I decided I didn't care for the Discovery as much any more.

Yeah, I saw the bit on dispelling in another thread and am fixing that right now. The reason I still like dispelling bomb is because its spontaneous and you can fire off two or later three in a round or use it in combination with other bombs.

Edit: And please, please point out any issues and I am open to suggestions about ratings also. Though as with Treant, the guide reflects my opinions.


0gre wrote:


Edit: And please, please point out any issues and I am open to suggestions about ratings also. Though as with Treant, the guide reflects my opinions.

Of course--my guides too. As to Dispelling Bombs, they are still certainly useful, but by the time you have three bombs per round, the party can easily afford to fire off Greater Dispel. They lost blue status for me when I found out that you can't get the added damage, but they're still green, and it depends a lot on your party.

Speaking of depending of your party, my hybridish Strangelob-style Alchemist would like to suggest an extra strategy tip, a reason that Grand Mutagen is a lot better than it seems for a bomber if your party has a melee character of any sort--in our group's Curse of the Crimson Throne game. my Alchemist taught the Barbarian a little bit of Alchemy, and she took one level. When he gets Greater and Grand Mutagen, she can drink his Mutagen while he drinks hers.


nice work ogre, you got that together quicker than i was expecting :)

a)that alchemical allocation looks pretty awsome if you can get your hands on a greater magic fang +5 potion for 3k your you can get it to last all day and you effectly getting the benefit of a +5 amulet of mighty fists

so thats a little bit awsome and scary for 3k

b)a suggested use for absorbing touch would be to keep a masterwork simple weapon in each hand, maybe one admantium and one cold iron for example.
or even crossbow with a loaded bolt of the above types
basically means you can always be armed if you ever get stripped of items
also handy for storing any plot important items , e.g. having just stolen the kings crown you abosrb it so when searched they won't be able to find it.

c)Dragonic Reservior (found the trick)
say you use at level 10 and you extend it with the discovery so it'll last 200 minutes or just over 1.5hrs which aint bad
choose an energy type say acid
then smash an acid bomb on your chest !
you take the full dmg of 5d6+int so mabye 21dmg average
smash another acid bomb on yourself
now your up to 42dmg give or take which is probably enough
and now you've got a 42dmg acid reservior for the next 1.5hours
good for adding 1d6 damage to roughly 14 attacks.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
0gre wrote:


Edit: And please, please point out any issues and I am open to suggestions about ratings also. Though as with Treant, the guide reflects my opinions.

Of course--my guides too. As to Dispelling Bombs, they are still certainly useful, but by the time you have three bombs per round, the party can easily afford to fire off Greater Dispel. They lost blue status for me when I found out that you can't get the added damage, but they're still green, and it depends a lot on your party.

Speaking of depending of your party, my hybridish Strangelob-style Alchemist would like to suggest an extra strategy tip, a reason that Grand Mutagen is a lot better than it seems for a bomber if your party has a melee character of any sort--in our group's Curse of the Crimson Throne game. my Alchemist taught the Barbarian a little bit of Alchemy, and she took one level. When he gets Greater and Grand Mutagen, she can drink his Mutagen while he drinks hers.

at that level you can just get the alchy to make a second infused mutagen for 1k and they can both benefit from the grand bonuses each day for 1k


Phasics wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
0gre wrote:


Edit: And please, please point out any issues and I am open to suggestions about ratings also. Though as with Treant, the guide reflects my opinions.

Of course--my guides too. As to Dispelling Bombs, they are still certainly useful, but by the time you have three bombs per round, the party can easily afford to fire off Greater Dispel. They lost blue status for me when I found out that you can't get the added damage, but they're still green, and it depends a lot on your party.

Speaking of depending of your party, my hybridish Strangelob-style Alchemist would like to suggest an extra strategy tip, a reason that Grand Mutagen is a lot better than it seems for a bomber if your party has a melee character of any sort--in our group's Curse of the Crimson Throne game. my Alchemist taught the Barbarian a little bit of Alchemy, and she took one level. When he gets Greater and Grand Mutagen, she can drink his Mutagen while he drinks hers.

at that level you can just get the alchy to make a second infused mutagen for 1k and they can both benefit from the grand bonuses each day for 1k

Tha takes another discovery and 1000 gp a pop, which isn't so attractive, but is certainly something I had considered down the road. The main point is that the Barbarian has the +8 to all physical stats.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Phasics wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:
0gre wrote:


Edit: And please, please point out any issues and I am open to suggestions about ratings also. Though as with Treant, the guide reflects my opinions.

Of course--my guides too. As to Dispelling Bombs, they are still certainly useful, but by the time you have three bombs per round, the party can easily afford to fire off Greater Dispel. They lost blue status for me when I found out that you can't get the added damage, but they're still green, and it depends a lot on your party.

Speaking of depending of your party, my hybridish Strangelob-style Alchemist would like to suggest an extra strategy tip, a reason that Grand Mutagen is a lot better than it seems for a bomber if your party has a melee character of any sort--in our group's Curse of the Crimson Throne game. my Alchemist taught the Barbarian a little bit of Alchemy, and she took one level. When he gets Greater and Grand Mutagen, she can drink his Mutagen while he drinks hers.

at that level you can just get the alchy to make a second infused mutagen for 1k and they can both benefit from the grand bonuses each day for 1k
Tha takes another discovery and 1000 gp a pop, which isn't so attractive, but is certainly something I had considered down the road. The main point is that the Barbarian has the +8 to all physical stats.

you do also realise that alchmists can share extracts as well which means you barbarian can freely use those 6th level extracts like giant form ;) for stacks on stacks

edit got confused with mutgane, but still possible with infusion for extracts , is acutally quite powerful since the transform spells are normally self only , i.e. wizard was never able to Dragon Form I the Fighter in the group

Shadow Lodge

Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Of course--my guides too. As to Dispelling Bombs, they are still certainly useful, but by the time you have three bombs per round, the party can easily afford to fire off Greater Dispel. They lost blue status for me when I found out that you can't get the added damage, but they're still green, and it depends a lot on your party.

It's hard to know what resources your party might have available. I rated some things like shadow walk well because it's the only transport spell available for alchemists. If you assume your party wizard is available at all times it's clearly not worth knowing.

Quote:
Speaking of depending of your party, my hybridish Strangelob-style Alchemist would like to suggest an extra strategy tip, a reason that Grand Mutagen is a lot better than it seems for a bomber if your party has a melee character of any sort--in our group's Curse of the Crimson Throne game. my Alchemist taught the Barbarian a little bit of Alchemy, and she took one level. When he gets Greater and Grand Mutagen, she can drink his Mutagen while he drinks hers.

This is an interesting idea, I'm hoping to add a tactics section but just trying to get the basics in place was a ton of work.


Not sure if it even possible

but do you think there is there a happy medium ? a Mr Hydelob Poisoneer if you will.

able to do it all, less effectivley of course than your focused builds but has the verstaility to hold up in melee with poisoned weapons, or stay at range and throw bombs or shoot poisoned weapons depending on the encounter ?

another potential build would be the infusioneer, designed to provide a large and constant supply of extracts to the groups non magical frontliners they normally wouldn't have access to, such a build would need to be desinged around be self sufficent without heavy use of extracts since they are earmarked for allies.

heh I know almost every 2 handed fighter would kill for a free potion of shield in thier hand they could drink when a fight starts.


Phasics wrote:


you do also realise that alchmists can share extracts as well which means you barbarian can freely use those 6th level extracts like giant form ;) for stacks on stacks

edit got confused with mutgane, but still possible with infusion for extracts , is acutally quite powerful since the transform spells are normally self only , i.e. wizard was never able to Dragon Form I the Fighter in the group

Indeed, I do know that, but thanks--it's also in 0gre's guide to help others out as well.

In fact, the lower-end version of such is how we've successfully three-manned Curse of the Crimson Throne thus far (everyone drinks my Infusioned extracts at once, then we blitz the dungeon). EDIT: In fact, the two-handed barbarian got Shield from it.

EDIT: Edit for your recent post--my Alchemist is an infusioneer who is going to bomb and poison on the side, with a bit of mutagen on the side, but meleeing only when forced.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:


EDIT: Edit for your recent post--my Alchemist is an infusioneer who is going to bomb and poison on the side, with a bit of mutagen on the side, but meleeing only when forced.

where are your feats going ? I'm interested becuase I'm playing around with an alchy build for kingmaker starting in about a month, I may need to tailor it to the groups needs, but I think geeting a good feel for options now might help deciding once the time comes.


Phasics wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:


EDIT: Edit for your recent post--my Alchemist is an infusioneer who is going to bomb and poison on the side, with a bit of mutagen on the side, but meleeing only when forced.

where are your feats going ? I'm interested becuase I'm playing around with an alchy build for kingmaker starting in about a month, I may need to tailor it to the groups needs, but I think geeting a good feel for options now might help deciding once the time comes.

I only have two feats--Point Blank and Precise Shot. Many of my future feats will probably be Extra Discovery.


Dont know if this has been mentioned but in your extract section:

Cure Light Wounds – Good low level healing and gets the alchemist access to the wand of cure light wounds.

That isnt correct. The alchemist has no caster level and his extracts dont count as spells, so he always has to use magic device on a wand.

EDIT: Ok, i misread the entry. Its Spell Completion items he cant use, not spell triggers. So wands ok, scrolls not ok.

Shadow Lodge

Phasics wrote:
nice work ogre, you got that together quicker than i was expecting :)

Most of the time on this was during the end of the playtest. I had it ready about a week ago and was waiting for the final rules.

Quote:
a)that alchemical allocation looks pretty awsome if you can get your hands on a greater magic fang +5 potion for 3k your you can get it to last all day and you effectly getting the benefit of a +5 amulet of mighty fists

It's certainly quite nice, but considering it's roughly equal to a third level spell and takes 2 full rounds to cast.. *shrug*

Quote:
c)Dragonic Reservior (found the trick)

Heroism is the same level and a much better long term attack buff (unless you have a bard). Now if the spell let you turn the energy into the opposite form of energy then it would probably be green or blue.

Shadow Lodge

Thanatos95 wrote:

Dont know if this has been mentioned but in your extract section:

Cure Light Wounds – Good low level healing and gets the alchemist access to the wand of cure light wounds.

That isnt correct. The alchemist has no caster level and his extracts dont count as spells, so he always has to use magic device on a wand.

Thanks for reading my guide. Kindly read the section on extracts again though because you are wrong on both issues.

Quote:

An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formuale list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so). An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist. The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level.


0gre wrote:


Quote:
a)that alchemical allocation looks pretty awsome if you can get your hands on a greater magic fang +5 potion for 3k your you can get it to last all day and you effectly getting the benefit of a +5 amulet of mighty fists

It's certainly quite nice, but considering it's roughly equal to a third level spell and takes 2 full rounds to cast.. *shrug*

I was more looking at it from the point of view that for a one time cost of 3000gold you get the benefits of a level 20 druid casting greater magic fang on you so it lasts 20 hours gaining +5 to all attack and damage rolls.

and you can rinse and repeat with the same potion every morning

of course you'd have to buy said 3k potion from a magic shop which means your GM would have to allow it.


Or you could use your rediculous bonuses to Craft Alchemy to make it yourself. That way you only pay half.


Thanatos95 wrote:
Or you could use your rediculous bonuses to Craft Alchemy to make it yourself. That way you only pay half.

magic fang isn't on the alchemists spell list and your casters level wouldn't be 20 when making it in any event


So you increase the difficulty of the check to counter not having the right spells. The bonuses an Alchemist gets will let you pull it of with little trouble.


Thanatos95 wrote:
So you increase the difficulty of the check to counter not having the right spells. The bonuses an Alchemist gets will let you pull it of with little trouble.

is that RAW ?

it leads to some very intersting ideas if it is

Shadow Lodge

Thanatos95 wrote:
So you increase the difficulty of the check to counter not having the right spells. The bonuses an Alchemist gets will let you pull it of with little trouble.

I admit to being confused. Alchemists use their class level to determine caster level. They really can't craft potions any better than clerics as far as I can tell.


Acutally just noticed they removed the potent bomb disocvery giving the bonus 1d6

was just thinkin you could potentially abuse the hell out of that and be a one trick pony

levels 2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18 = 9d6
feats 3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19 = 9d6

plus 10d6 for 28d6 bombs hehehe

assuming you spend a few discveries not on an extra 1d6
fast 25d6 bombs is some serious doom for a theoritical max of 75d6

and now I get why they cut it hehehe

Shadow Lodge

Yeah, damage without potent bomb can get pretty crazy already.

Shadow Lodge

Looks good so far Ogre. One thing I would suggest, is to at least include 20 point buys in the guide, if only because thats the standard for society play.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Another thing to mention is that you can't do Precision Damage (Sneak Attack, etc) with bombs. (Unless this was changed in APG). Definitely something for the multiclass section.


sieylianna wrote:
Another thing to mention is that you can't do Precision Damage (Sneak Attack, etc) with bombs. (Unless this was changed in APG). Definitely something for the multiclass section.

actually hadn't even considered using sneak attack with bombs, it was purely bombs for smoke bombs to create plenty of concealment opporuntites to sneak attack from.

heh could probably create a very nice alchemist/rogue/fighter mix especailly with all the new varient abilities

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
0gre wrote:

Links above are fixed, thanks.

The colors are inherited from the way Treantmonk did his guides.

Sorry, I didn't express myself properly- I'm familiar with Treantmonk's colour coding, even from back on the Wizards boards. what I was praising of yours was how you had defined them- rather than from blue=good to red =bad, it's blue=useful to red=roleplaying opportunity.

Shadow Lodge

Enlight_Bystand wrote:
0gre wrote:

Links above are fixed, thanks.

The colors are inherited from the way Treantmonk did his guides.

Sorry, I didn't express myself properly- I'm familiar with Treantmonk's colour coding, even from back on the Wizards boards. what I was praising of yours was how you had defined them- rather than from blue=good to red =bad, it's blue=useful to red=roleplaying opportunity.

Haha, I think it changes on different pages. In particular with races I wanted to make the point that there really are no bad choices. In other sections certain things are just poor choices but whatever choice you make is bound to be fun.

Shadow Lodge

@Kabump - I'll try and work some up, I have a PFS alchemist right now. IMO PFS kind of encourages generalization since you don't know what your group is going to look like so alchemist is a great PFS class.

@sieylianna - When I get into multi classing I will be sure to mention it.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, looking at the extracts guide, I'm guessing that Infernal Healing didn't make it into the Alchemist's spell list as I had hoped (but not really expected). I thought that it would make sense since they have Cure Light Wounds and imbibing an extract derived from devil's blood would make sens for the class imo.

I do have a quick question that looking at the guide made me think of regarding wand usage. For using a wand, does the alchemist need to have the spell in his spells known (e.g. Cure Light Wounds), or does the fact that it shows up on the Alchemist Formulae list make him eligible to use the wand?

Also, I have a PfS Alchemist as well (well, fighter 1/alchemist 1). I went with the fighter at 1st level to get the BAB to start for access to Power Attack. I also went with Combat Reflexes as I am going Dwarven Mr. Hyde w/ a dorn-dergar. I was a bit upset at the loss of dodge as a lvl 1 feat for alchemist (in place of Brew Potion) because I was considering going spring attack since it would only be 2 more feats. However, looking at your guide, it looks like there are some more feats I need to consider from the APG (I should get mine tomorrow when they make the pdfs available).

BTW, I don't see Spring in your list of feats, did you consider it? With reach (reach weapon and/or enlarge person), you can give yourself some more AoOs. Or is it just not worth it with the other feats that are available?

Overall though, good guide. Will be even more helpful when I can read the text of the rest of the formulae/feats that you reference. Are you going to have a PfS specific section? Since at least in my mind, I was finding I was planning a different build knowing I only had access to 12 levels instead of 20.

Shadow Lodge

Criik wrote:
Well, looking at the extracts guide, I'm guessing that Infernal Healing didn't make it into the Alchemist's spell list as I had hoped (but not really expected). I thought that it would make sense since they have Cure Light Wounds and imbibing an extract derived from devil's blood would make sens for the class imo.

I agree. My feeling is it was omitted because the spell does not appear in the APG seems like the sort of thing an alchemist would use and enjoy. The other (minor) issue with infernal healing is that it's a diabolical source of power (Most alchemist powers are alignment neutral). Regardless, won't be available for PFS use :(

Quote:
I do have a quick question that looking at the guide made me think of regarding wand usage. For using a wand, does the alchemist need to have the spell in his spells known (e.g. Cure Light Wounds), or does the fact that it shows up on the Alchemist Formulae list make him eligible to use the wand?

It says any that appear on "his formula list" as opposed to his formulas known so I would assume it works just like wizards and clerics, you can use wands from any spell on the class' spell list.

Quote:
Also, I have a PfS Alchemist as well (well, fighter 1/alchemist 1). I went with the fighter at 1st level to get the BAB to start for access to Power Attack. I also went with Combat Reflexes as I am going Dwarven Mr. Hyde w/ a dorn-dergar. I was a bit upset at the loss of dodge as a lvl 1 feat for alchemist (in place of Brew Potion) because I was considering going spring attack since it would only be 2 more feats. However, looking at your guide, it looks like there are some more feats I need to consider from the APG (I should get mine tomorrow when they make the pdfs available).

I wasn't very happy about the loss of dodge either. Master alchemist is somewhat good since it reduces the number of craft roles I need to make but overall the +1 to AC from dodge would be better.

Quote:
BTW, I don't see Spring in your list of feats, did you consider it? With reach (reach weapon and/or enlarge person), you can give yourself some more AoOs. Or is it just not worth it with the other feats that are available?

To be honest the feats need a good amount of work. A lot of combat oriented feats are missing and I need to dig through and add them. The spring chain is good but the alchemist relies on full attacks for damage and I would probably focus on that.

I guess you could make a pretty good two handed weapon spring attacker with power attack and skip feral altogether. I have to look at that, spring attack, vital strike with a boosted strength seems like a killer combo but I haven't really looked into it. If you are large (and you should probably be large a lot) you are going to have reach and spring attack with reach is really nice since you get to AoO them when they counter.

Quote:
Overall though, good guide. Will be even more helpful when I can read the text of the rest of the formulae/feats that you reference. Are you going to have a PfS specific section? Since at least in my mind, I was finding I was planning a different build knowing I only had access to 12 levels instead of 20.

The class is largely the same as the beta so no huge surprises. New extracts are very nice though.

More likely I might have some little cut outs for PFS, add 20 point buy stats, and a few other comments. I don't see any huge differences for PFS, are there any in particular you were thinking of? I guess avoid starting long feat chains at 9th level is obvious :D

Edit: Oh and thanks for the comments.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, the biggest change in plans that I made for playing in PfS was actually choosing to dip into fighter at level 1. I figured that the benefit of getting the dorn-dergar (martial for dwarven so proficient from start), the availability of armor, and the ability to get power attack at first level was worth losing getting grand mutagen for the retirement campaign, since those bonuses would be with me through the 33 scenarios up to level 12. Also, the +1 BAB from lvl 1 fighter allows me to get Darting Viper at lvl 5 instead of waiting for lvl 7. But even if I don't get darting viper, it gives me a BAB of +4 at level 5 which also opens up the possibility of Great Cleave (although unless they changed this, I still don't like it with it's 'adjacent' restriction) or Spring Attack at 5 instead of 7.

I guess I didn't think about the loss of full attack when using Spring Attack. I think that will change my mind against it again.

Master Alchemist? Unless I'm misreading in the 3.0 PfS Guide to Organized Play (dated 8/3) it says Alchemists get Extra Bombs instead of Brew Potion. Or is Master Alchemist just a free feat for alchemists? I want my pdf!

Oh, also for PfS, emphasizing the Craft (Alchemy) skill (although I can't really understand if any alchemist doesn't take it) since Alchemists are the only "crafters" in PfS as well as the craft skill being used for the day job roll. Maybe also emphasize (or add) the Swim skill. Maybe it was mostly one of those anecdotal (and keystone cop situations), but the first 2 scenarios I was in our party had our most horrid encounters due to swim checks.

Spoiler:
Silent Tide and The Hydra's Fang Incident

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Criik wrote:
Well, the biggest change in plans that I made for playing in PfS was actually choosing to dip into fighter at level 1. I figured that the benefit of getting the dorn-dergar (martial for dwarven so proficient from start), the availability of armor, and the ability to get power attack at first level was worth losing getting grand mutagen for the retirement campaign, since those bonuses would be with me through the 33 scenarios up to level 12.

We have a rogue 1 / Alchemist 5 in a home campaign and he is constantly bemoaning the lost alchemist level. We didn't have a rogue at the time so he did it to help out the group, but it's pretty much like giving up a caster level, everything comes slower. We have a rogue in the group now and the DM is letting us incorporate the APG, so I think he'll probably drop the rogue level.

He's primarily a lob bombs from safety alchemist, so you may get more value from fighter than he does from rogue.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, losing the caster level was a little harsh, but I think for my current build it was worth it. As I had mentioned, getting the medium and heavy armor proficiencies (although I probably won't use heavy), all the martial weapons, basically an exotic weapon proficiency (dwarven dorn-dergar), the bonus fighter feat and the ability to start off my power attack at level 1 and get my darting viper 2 levels earlier just seemed worth it. Now that I'm level 2, he's starting to work as planned although with the limited number of extracts/day atm, I was mutagened for one encounter, enlarged for one encounter, and then true strike for the BBEG. I had expected at least 1 rest b/w encounters, but that scenario didn't give it (and the true strike was wasted on a nat 20).

Also, adding Swim as a class skill should prove useful in PfS if the scenarios keep up the way they started for me.

Shadow Lodge

You are right, in PFS it is extra bombs not master alchy.

Caster level isn't as important for alchemist as it is for full casters because so much of the class' power is from the mutagen and bombs. You do slow down your other abilities but it's not like losing a wizard level. I don't care much for multiclassing in general though.

Shadow Lodge

Updated the Extracts page:

  • Added discussion about the differences between extracts and spells
  • Added a section on tactics
  • Finished discussing a few more 6th level extracts

  • Shadow Lodge

    On racial selections, I noticed gnomes were dead last.

    With the new variant traits and favored class bonuses, both gnomes and half-orcs end up having some of the best (if not the best) bomb damage output.

    Shadow Lodge

    wakedown wrote:

    On racial selections, I noticed gnomes were dead last.

    With the new variant traits and favored class bonuses, both gnomes and half-orcs end up having some of the best (if not the best) bomb damage output.

    Yeah, still working through the APG and picking up on thse things. Pyromaniac is perfect for alchemists. Half orcs probably get the best deal, I have to move them both up in the bomber ranks...

    Shadow Lodge

    sieylianna wrote:


    We have a rogue 1 / Alchemist 5 in a home campaign and he is constantly bemoaning the lost alchemist level. We didn't have a rogue at the time so he did it to help out the group, but it's pretty much like giving up a caster level, everything comes slower. We have a rogue in the group now and the DM is letting us incorporate the APG, so I think he'll probably drop the rogue level.

    He's primarily a lob bombs from safety alchemist, so you may get more value from fighter than he does from rogue.

    Hey, I am that Alchemist in question! :) I know its you from your user name! I absolutely dropped that level in rogue to go straight alchemist. Since we picked up a rogue, all it did was keep me behind on my power curve. I have found, in my particular game, that I get a chance to use craft(alchemy) in a LOT of situations, so its been good for me to keep high. However I can see in a general sense where it would be ok to get a few ranks then move on.

    As siey says, im an int/dex based bomb alchey, an elf with a bow for backup. Got the smoke and stink cloud bombs to help with crown control, precise bombs to not hit my buddies, and grabbing dispelling bombs at 8th, then extra discovery at 9th to get infusion. In my case losing the level of alchemist hurt me, but grabbing fighter for your build and plan sounds well worth it.


    Just one question Ogre?

    I have the feeling I am missing a rule here but what stops an alchemist from taking feral Mutagen and a two handed weapon so at level twenty they get 6 attacks?

    Assume claws on feet and that the character took Multiattack you would hit in this order 15/13/13/13/10/5 correct?

    Just an idea.

    Edit: or Actually Two Weapon Fighting and have 13/13/11/11/11/8/8/3/3

    Shadow Lodge

    Updated the intro again with recommended items potions and elixirs to stock up on for use with <i>alchemical allocation</i>. That's right, it turns out the wonder spell can work with elixirs too some of which are quite nice.

    @Covent - Off the top of my head can't say what would prevent that but I suspect many GMs would not allow attacking with feet.


    I would be tempted to disallow it myself but many animals have rear claw attacks the dinosaurs and cats spring to mind immediately and also I would think with sandals and Improved unarmed strike maybe it would seem more plausible although feat taxing with improved unarmed seems a little harsh to me.

    This just comes from one of my players throwing together an alchemist and ideas we came up with.

    We tend to try to find holes so that we can have an answer when the munchkins in our group come up with "Hey what about...".

    Anyway thanks.

    Shadow Lodge

    wakedown wrote:

    On racial selections, I noticed gnomes were dead last.

    With the new variant traits and favored class bonuses, both gnomes and half-orcs end up having some of the best (if not the best) bomb damage output.

    Ok, updated the racial sections moving both the half-orc and gnome up a notch for bombing. Half orcs are apparently taking their rightful place as top Alchemists ;)


    Covent wrote:

    Just one question Ogre?

    I have the feeling I am missing a rule here but what stops an alchemist from taking feral Mutagen and a two handed weapon so at level twenty they get 6 attacks?

    Assume claws on feet and that the character took Multiattack you would hit in this order 15/13/13/13/10/5 correct?

    Just an idea.

    Edit: or Actually Two Weapon Fighting and have 13/13/11/11/11/8/8/3/3

    nothing expect your only getting 1/2 strength bonus on those natural attacks since all natural attacks become secondary when used with melee

    and since most monsters at that level have at least DR10 all those natural attacks are wasted becuase their individual damage is too low.

    assuming you had 30 strength
    1d8+5 dmg + 1d6+5 dmg + 1d6+5 dmg = Avg 9.5 + 8.5 + 8.5 = 0 damage vs DR 10

    If you had an expensive amulet of mighty fists for +5 then your getting 14.5 + 13.5 +13.5 and deliver a whopping 4.5+3.5+3.5 = 11.5 extra damage

    those natural attack unless you spend more money or spell won't be able to bypass the DR either

    against a serious solo threat for a level 20 group, your natural attacks would be meaningless, and might even exposure you to contact damage from the creature your fighting.

    a rogue with sneak attack might benefit from 3 extra attacks to apply the sneak damage to although sneak attacks have their own issues at that level.


    0gre wrote:
    wakedown wrote:

    On racial selections, I noticed gnomes were dead last.

    With the new variant traits and favored class bonuses, both gnomes and half-orcs end up having some of the best (if not the best) bomb damage output.

    Ok, updated the racial sections moving both the half-orc and gnome up a notch for bombing. Half orcs are apparently taking their rightful place as top Alchemists ;)

    that half-orc damage bonus to bombs is pretty nice +1dmg per two level is like getting +2INT every 2 levels

    and considering splash is all about the damage bonus since it does minimum dmg


    Covent wrote:

    Just one question Ogre?

    I have the feeling I am missing a rule here but what stops an alchemist from taking feral Mutagen and a two handed weapon so at level twenty they get 6 attacks?

    Assume claws on feet and that the character took Multiattack you would hit in this order 15/13/13/13/10/5 correct?

    Just an idea.

    You could certainly use armor spikes as a weapon attack and the natural weapons as secondary attacks. But note that you're only applying half of your Str bonus to the natural weapons, not to mention a diminished Power Attack benefit.

    So it's a trade-off between:

    +15/+10/+5 (at +1x Str bonus and +8 PA damage) and +13/+13/+13 (at +0.5x Str bonus and +4 PA damage)

    and

    +15/+15/+15 (at +1x Str bonus and +8 PA damage)

    At least, I think I have the math right. I was trying to figure this out for my barbarian/alchemist.

    NOTE: The Drunken Brute barbarian variant synergizes nicely with the alchemist, since he can drink a potion as a move action without provoking an AoO!

    1 to 50 of 258 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | next > last >>
    Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Advice / Dr. Strangelob and Mr. Hyde: The Ogre's Guide to Alchemists All Messageboards

    Want to post a reply? Sign in.

    ©2002-2017 Paizo Inc.® | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
    Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours, Monday through Friday, 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific time.

    Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, Starfinder, the Starfinder logo, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Legends, Pathfinder Online, Starfinder Adventure Path, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.