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Advanced Player's Guide is an amazing product, and the amount of pure awesomeness in it is overwhelming.
Nevertheless, flipping through it, few concerns came. The "Dazing" feats, expecially the spellcaster one.
Dazing Assault, makes you able to Daze the enemies 1 round taking a -5 penalty to hit (fort save negates). Requires BAB +11, so it comes in game far before the expensive critical feats..
Daze is a powerful condition (few monsters are immune to it), I was concerned by the fact that somewhat makes the Critical Feats obsolete..
Moreover, more important, maybe it's me, but it's not clear how it works (the target must save for each hit? or at the end of the turn?).
The Dazing Spell metamagic feat makes me even more puzzled. It has the chance to daze with a damaging spell for several rounds (equal to the level of spells). Isn't it a bit too powerful?
Since the Reference Document states that the dazed condition has a duration of 1 round (generally), couldn't be this a typo?
I want to thank in advance for your patience. If there is something I miss, I want to apologize in advance for this that is not a rant, but just a little concern regarding a wonderful game and a wonderful book.
The Dazing Spell metamagic feat makes me even more puzzled. It has the chance to daze with a damaging spell for several rounds (equal to the level of spells). Isn't it a bit too powerful?
How many levels higher do you have to prepare it? IIRC it was three levels, meaning at 11th level you could either:
- Cast a Dazing Fireball causing 10d6 damage and dazing for 3 turns, and reflex save DC13+Int for half damage and no dazeor:
- Cast Mass Suggestion to cause the targets to play chess or whatever for 11 hours, will save DC 16+Int for no effect.
It's good, but I don't think it's too good really. If it was 3 levels higher that is, if I remember correctly and it's just one level, then I can see the problem.
The Dazing Spell metamagic feat makes me even more puzzled. It has the chance to daze with a damaging spell for several rounds (equal to the level of spells). Isn't it a bit too powerful?How many levels higher do you have to prepare it? IIRC it was three levels, meaning at 11th level you could either:
- Cast a Dazing Fireball causing 10d6 damage and dazing for 3 turns, and reflex save DC13+Int for half damage and no daze
or:
- Cast Mass Suggestion to cause the targets to play chess or whatever for 11 hours, will save DC 16+Int for no effect.It's good, but I don't think it's too good really. If it was 3 levels higher that is, if I remember correctly and it's just one level, then I can see the problem.
I'm not sure that suggestions avoids to take other activities.. just to do something for the following hours if possible. I see it more as an out-of combat trick to force or avoid situations (maybe my interpretation is wrong).
Moreover, is far more easy being immune to compulsions than to daze (even if, one could reasonably argue that one should be vulnerable to the initial damage of the spell).
Finally, the slot thing is not so simple. Sorcerer and Wizards have way to skip the higher spell slot thing. And there are metamagic rods.
To be clear: I'm not yelling "ZOMG IS TEH BORKENN".. is just a concern :)
On suggestion, I think it's useful for combat - it certainly seems so. You should be able to tell them to sit down and play cards or pray, or discuss the latest raise in goblin wages, or whatever.
Wand of Dazing Magic Missle.
Would cost a hellofalot of money, and have a saving throw DC of 11.
On suggestion, I think it's useful for combat - it certainly seems so. You should be able to tell them to sit down and play cards or pray, or discuss the latest raise in goblin wages, or whatever.
Wand of Dazing Magic Missle.Would cost a hellofalot of money, and have a saving throw DC of 11.
My point is that if you forcecage a target, it can escape, disintegrate, teleport. If you dominate a NON IMMUNE target, an ally can dispel it.
Point being that there are not so many effects able to remove daze, and few creatures (if any) are immune to it. So I was wondering if an AREA OF EFFECT daze spell can be just.. a little bit too much, if it lasts more than one round (I.E., I was wondering if the duration was intentional, or a mistake).
On suggestion, I think it's useful for combat - it certainly seems so. You should be able to tell them to sit down and play cards or pray, or discuss the latest raise in goblin wages, or whatever.
Wand of Dazing Magic Missle.Would cost a hellofalot of money, and have a saving throw DC of 11.My point is that if you forcecage a target, it can escape, disintegrate, teleport. If you dominate a NON IMMUNE target, an ally can dispel it.
Point being that there are not so many effects able to remove daze, and few creatures (if any) are immune to it. So I was wondering if an AREA OF EFFECT daze spell can be just.. a little bit too much, if it lasts more than one round (I.E., I was wondering if the duration was intentional, or a mistake).
Ah. I think it's intentional, but you have a point in that it's hard to remove the effects.
See, 1 round of duration is fine. there is a save, and it's an area effect mostly (but people could come here with counter examples) with evocation spells.
Evocation spell need some booss, and, moreover, I find reasonable that if you are invested by a fire explosion, you could just not stay there sayin' "eh.. whatever".
But 3 rounds of "do nothing" that can be targeted to most enemies (again, this can be countered by immunities or by evasion) can come out as not trivial in the long road.
I find very cheap the Dazing Assault trigger too, but is absolutely not at the same level, because of the melee range and because of the 1 round duration (the fact that it affacts fortitude could and could not matter).
I'm not worried about the Dazing Spell feat, personally; by the time you're casting level 4+ spells, there are already plenty of save-or-lose spells available, as noted above.
I'm not worried about the Dazing Spell feat, personally; by the time you're casting level 4+ spells, there are already plenty of save-or-lose spells available, as noted above.
How many are area of effect spells? How many cannot be directed against a particular target because of immunities?
Things like confusion have drawbacks. How may ways of remove daze do exist?
I see your points..dunno. Maybe is a way to pimp direct damage.
Wand of Dazing Magic Missle.
Can wands cast metamagic modified spells?
I know this doesn't help in the wider world of gaming. But our group has house rules a slap as a move action to shake someone out of being dazed.
Helping or not, it's just a very cool houserule ;)
I'm not worried about the Dazing Spell feat, personally; by the time you're casting level 4+ spells, there are already plenty of save-or-lose spells available, as noted above.How many are area of effect spells? How many cannot be directed against a particular target because of immunities?
Things like confusion have drawbacks. How may ways of remove daze do exist?
I see your points..dunno. Maybe is a way to pimp direct damage.
Well, in the 3.5 Spell Compendium there was a spell called Radiant Assault that was very similar to a Dazing Fireball (it dazed the target for 1d6 rounds and did 1d6/level of generic energy damage, Will save for 1/2). It was a level 7 spell, not level 6, but on the other hand it did an uncommon damage type. So there's some precedent.
I certainly agree with you that "dazed" is a powerful condition and it should be used sparingly. In Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved, there's a level 2 spell that dazes creatures in a 10' radius for 1d4 rounds; that's too much, in my opinion.
I'm not worried about the Dazing Spell feat, personally; by the time you're casting level 4+ spells, there are already plenty of save-or-lose spells available, as noted above.How many are area of effect spells? How many cannot be directed against a particular target because of immunities?
Things like confusion have drawbacks. How may ways of remove daze do exist?
I see your points..dunno. Maybe is a way to pimp direct damage.
Well, in the 3.5 Spell Compendium there was a spell called Radiant Assault that was very similar to a Dazing Fireball (it dazed the target for 1d6 rounds and did 1d6/level of generic energy damage, Will save for 1/2). It was a level 7 spell, not level 6, but on the other hand it did an uncommon damage type. So there's some precedent.
I certainly agree with you that "dazed" is a powerful condition and it should be used sparingly. In Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved, there's a level 2 spell that dazes creatures in a 10' radius for 1d4 rounds; that's too much, in my opinion.
In WotC spell compendium you can find orb spells, too. In PH2 you can find celerity. This does not mean that is a good thing that spells like those are around.
IMO, 1 round would be enough, maybe making the spell slot just 2. Just to discuss, not to rant... I was curious if other gamers had my same first impression.
To the OP: Are you concerned about Stinking Cloud, too? Because it royally screws up groups and lasts 1d4 rounds after you get out of the SC. Nauseated is just as bad as dazed. And messier. :p
One thing to notice when comparing to other spells of that prepared level is that all saving throw DCs will be -3 for the dazing spell. This is huge. And they'll always last for "level cast as"-3 turns.
Also, 4th level spells will rarely be area spell (the exception being Dazing Burning Hands, which doesn't really have a great area or range), and only lasting 1 turn.
5th level spells will have lousy radius and only last 2 turns.
6th level spells is the first we have to really worry about, and at that time there's usually a lot of save-or-suck spells going on.
A good thing with this feat is that it increases the value of reflex saves, which previously where seen as the least important save.
Magnuskn: nauseated is less troublesome than dazed because you canperform move action. You can at least try a retreat.
Nevertheless, your points are valid, expecially the stringburka one. I talked with my players, we will see in gameplay how it works out.
Thanks all :)
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I see that none answered about Dazing Assault. Does it make obsolete critical feats in your opinion? Probably not, but I was curious to see what other gamers think about it.
Allow me to add a new dimension to the discussion: the save-or-be-dazed effect triggers WHEN the spell does damage.
*Ahem*
How imba is a dazing acid arrow?
Or a widened dazing elemental aura?
Or dazing elemental touch? Heck, if I'm reading the rules right, you could even stack 4 dazing elemental touches, and FULL ATTACK WITH IT for up to 4 attacks which each require 4 fort saves to avoid being dazed for 2 rounds!!! Granted it'd be at a lowish DC, but with that many saves to make, your chances are actually pretty good for one of them at least to trigger.
Dazing Hold Person?
Think dazing cloudkill, acid fog, or incendiary cloud.
How imba is a dazing acid arrow?
Ranged touch against single target, for 3 turns save DC 12+Stat or Daze for 2 turns.
With a +6 in casting stat, against an average level-appropriate foe that is 45% chance per turn of success against a target with bad will save, 20% against an enemy with a good will save. Doesn't work against any opponent with acid resistance (might work against acid resistance 10, but only first turn).
For a 5th level slot I think that's fine. Compare to Dominate Person - no touch attack required, 60%/35% chance of instawin against that opponent. I think it's quite balanced in that case.
I'd have a bigger problem with stuff like Acid Fog and Black Tentacles.
Think dazing cloudkill, acid fog, or incendiary cloud.
Incindiary cloud can't be Dazing under normal circumstances (might go with the correct feats and/or a rod of dazing spell), and cloudkill... I'm not sure that would work. Con damage is damage, but I'm not sure if it counts. It probably could.
My biggest issue from the sor/wiz list would be Black Tentacles. Those are already great, something that can't be said for Acid Fog.
Yes they can, they just use up additional charges equal to the level modification to make up the difference.Wand of Dazing Magic Missle.Can wands cast metamagic modified spells?
You're thinking of the 3.5 feat Metamagic Spell Trigger (IIR the name correctly).
"Yes" is the correct answer, but you have to create the wand with the metamagic feat. In other words, you have to create a wand of empowered magic missile (which would be priced as a 3rd level wand with a minimum caster level of 5 or 6 depending on your class); you cannot (without resorting to 3.5 feats) use Empower Spell on a normal, already-created wand of magic missile.
Allow me to add a new dimension to the discussion: the save-or-be-dazed effect triggers WHEN the spell does damage.
I'd interpret that as the first time it does damage, not every time it does damage. YMMV, of course.
Dazing Hold Person?
Wouldn't work. The trick is, the dazing effect is triggered by the spell doing damage. Hence the discussion about spells that deal damage over time. They force the target to make saves every round. Now, imagine, say, an eldritch knight with craft rod as a feat, crafts himself 2 least dazing metarods. He prebuffs with 4 dazing elemental touches (am I reading the rules right? can this be done since it appears to be a buff rather than a touch spell?) and a dazing elemental aura. Opens combat with a dazing acid arrow, then goes into melee range and starts full attacking. Assume he hits just once per round (a modest assumption). That's SIX saves to make each round to avoid being dazed for 2 or 3 rounds. One will (acid arrow), one reflex (elemental aura) and 4 fort (4 elemental touches). Sure they're at the lower-end of the DC range, but it's 6 saves to make every round, and the enemy just needs to roll badly (maybe a 5 or lower) ONCE out of 6 (or more) times, and even if he makes the first round, there's still the next round, and the next...
And at higher levels, you can start quickening some of those spells to decrease the set-up time. Spell perfection from level 15 onwards just adds to the fun. =D
In fact, if this build works rules-wise, the Eldritch Knight would find a niche as the class best-suited to take advantage of this cheese, making him viable for some gish lovers.
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Cast Mass Suggestion to cause the targets to play chess or whatever for 11 hours, will save DC 16+Int for no effect.That is an awesome idea.
Ideally, you would have two fighters, two clerics, a male and a female aristcrat, two cavaliers, and eight first level commoners when you do this.
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Ideally, you would have two fighters, two clerics, a male and a female aristcrat, two cavaliers, and eight first level commoners when you do this.Cast Mass Suggestion to cause the targets to play chess or whatever for 11 hours, will save DC 16+Int for no effect.That is an awesome idea.
Thats great!
Ideally, you would have two fighters, two clerics, a male and a female aristcrat, two cavaliers, and eight first level commoners when you do this.Cast Mass Suggestion to cause the targets to play chess or whatever for 11 hours, will save DC 16+Int for no effect.That is an awesome idea.
You forgot the two Stone Golems.
I say this as an opener: best thread derail EVAR!
Why does everyone forget about sound burst?
Level 2 cleric spell, does 1d8 sonic damage and stuns everyone in an area for 1 round. Ringing any bells?
Stun > Daze, and here we have a level 2 cleric spell that stuns everything in a 10 foot radius.
Call me weird, but I think that is worse than the prospect of a dazing burning hands or magic missle as a level 3 spell.
Why does everyone forget about sound burst?
Level 2 cleric spell, does 1d8 sonic damage and stuns everyone in an area for 1 round. Ringing any bells?
Stun > Daze, and here we have a level 2 cleric spell that stuns everything in a 10 foot radius.
Call me weird, but I think that is worse than the prospect of a dazing burning hands or magic missle as a level 3 spell.
Worse than a dazing burning hands? Certainly, I'll grant you that. Worse than an aura that has a chance to daze anyone within 5 ft of you every round? That's a different story altogether.
Worse than a dazing burning hands? Certainly, I'll grant you that. Worse than an aura that has a chance to daze anyone within 5 ft of you every round? That's a different story altogether.Why does everyone forget about sound burst?
Level 2 cleric spell, does 1d8 sonic damage and stuns everyone in an area for 1 round. Ringing any bells?
Stun > Daze, and here we have a level 2 cleric spell that stuns everything in a 10 foot radius.
Call me weird, but I think that is worse than the prospect of a dazing burning hands or magic missle as a level 3 spell.
So a spell that uses a 5th or 6th(not sure of the spell level adjustment of dazing spell) level spell slot(Dazing Elemental Aura) is worse than a level 2 spell? I would hope so.
My point is that a dazing magic missle or dazing burning hands would be a 3rd or 4th level spell. Sound Burst is a level 2 cleric spell and it is better than both of those.
Worse than a dazing burning hands? Certainly, I'll grant you that. Worse than an aura that has a chance to daze anyone within 5 ft of you every round? That's a different story altogether.
So a spell that uses a 5th or 6th(not sure of the spell level adjustment of dazing spell) level spell slot(Dazing Elemental Aura) is worse than a level 2 spell? I would hope so.
My point is that a dazing magic missle or dazing burning hands would be a 3rd or 4th level spell. Sound Burst is a level 2 cleric spell and it is better than both of those.
The dazing sonic burst would take a 5th level slot and require two saves, DC 12+Wis against stun 1 turn and DC 12+Wis against Daze 2 turns. Not bad, sure, but not that good for a 5th level slot either.
The aura would take a 6th level slot and require one save per turn to everyone in radius, DC13+Wis a fail equals 3 turns of dazing. That is actually scary. Now, if it's just a Sor/Wis spell (don't remember), it's not that big of a deal since only gishes could effectively use them and gishes could use a power boost, but if it's on the bard, cleric or druid list - there's going to be problems. That is reaaally kick-ass.
EDIT: Ah, now I see what you mean. You didn't mean a dazing sound burst, you meant that sound burst is better than a dazing low-level spell. Agreed, no doubt, because daze isn't that good on low-level spells. Any 4th level spell would kick dazing MM out of the blue and it's only a single turn of dazing. Dazing Spell is used in the higher levels, not the lower ones. Spells of level 3+ are the most effective to use dazing on.
The problem IMO is the duration. The spells of duration greater than instant, and the fact that the daze would eventually be 3-5 rounds long.
Moreover, as said above, that is very difficult being immune to or stop the dazed status.
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I'm suprised that if people are so concerned about the daze - that they haven't mentioned Colour Spray.
Granted - the really, really bad stuff is only for low level enemies. But I recently saw 4 out of a group of 5 players being hit and missing the save. The three level 1 where unconcious, blinded and stunned for 8 rounds (2d4 - rolled max as GM). Just realie I forgot to add the d4 stunned and blinded one extra round stunned.
I know - 5HD and higher are only stunned a single round. But that is still worse as a dazing Magic Missile. Only real drawback is the short range.
Thod
I'm suprised that if people are so concerned about the daze - that they haven't mentioned Colour Spray.
Granted - the really, really bad stuff is only for low level enemies. But I recently saw 4 out of a group of 5 players being hit and missing the save. The three level 1 where unconcious, blinded and stunned for 8 rounds (2d4 - rolled max as GM). Just realie I forgot to add the d4 stunned and blinded one extra round stunned.
I know - 5HD and higher are only stunned a single round. But that is still worse as a dazing Magic Missile. Only real drawback is the short range.
Thod
You said it. The spell is VERY strong, even too much, but for a target of 5HD or more, it's just 1 round. 3 Round daze is far worse. Moreover, the spray is a cone. One could apply dazing spell on spells with a greater range.
I see points people bringed, indeed, your included.
A heavens oracle takes color spray to a new level though. Since they subtract their charisma modifier from all targets' hit dice before applying the effect a level 1 heavens oracle with 20 Cha can lay out level 6 characters with color spray... level 7~8 are hurting.
By the time the heavens oracle is level 8 he'll probably be subtracting 7~8 from their hit dice meaning he can still drop creatures with 9~10 hit dice with color spray and have nice effects on those with 11~12.
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I know I'm rehashing an old post, but I must say that MM rod of Dazing might be the most powerful Metamagic rod in the game. In our gaming group we have a sorcerer focused on blasting with all the feats associated with it. He's lvl 11 and he's worked to get his saves really high. He carries around a dazing rod and uses it with fireball, changing the energy type to something else if the enemies are immune to fire through his bloodline ability. The enemies all become dazed for 3 rounds and all that's left to do is cleanup. This one item constantly wins fights more than any other ability, magic item, or power in our game.
I realized after seeing his blaster in game play, that if you didn't make a blaster like he did, ie focusing on high saving throws and the MM rod of dazing, then you were making a sub optimal blaster. Dazing rods are just too powerful.
The fact that maybe 5 monsters in all 3 of the Bestiaries are immune to dazing shows me that dazing needs to be errata'd to be a stunning affect. Even then it is powerful.
Would a dazing grease with power component acid work?
Every round someone is in the area of the grease he is delt 1 point of acid damage.
So you could grease a corridor and everyone trying to get through must save or fall down and if he's still in the area of effect when he gets the acid damage he has to save or be dazed.
Sure it's a crappy save and a 4th level spell with a costly component (the acid) but sounds funny.
I realized after seeing his blaster in game play, that if you didn't make a blaster like he did, ie focusing on high saving throws and the MM rod of dazing, then you were making a sub optimal blaster. Dazing rods are just too powerful.
I agree; there are a number of metamagic feats that are pretty good as feats but that are a bit over the top as metamagic rods.