Our group would like some opinions on the wonderful idea we had during our CoT campaign.
Much to our DM's dismay, we found an innovative way to dispose of the multitude of tiefling Bastard of Erebus bodies. In order to fund our rebellion, we have decided to open our own soap business. Our product: The Suds of Dis. (We also have a few bars or soap made from those horrible stealing gremlins).
We spent perhaps an hour arguing/debating as to how this would work. It helps having a player (Squeakmaan) who has a working knowledge of how soap is made given his biology degree.
Our DM is afraid this will mess up our future in the AP. We players disagree. He also fears that it is too evil for some of the characters (however, some of us are "unconcerned" by this).
What do you think?
Well, it's not "entirely" evil (according to our self-sustaining rationalizations). I mean they ARE tieflings who were doing all their banditry in the city. Maybe if it was a bunch of Aasimar bandits we'd feel bad.
But we are terrible, terrible people.
and as far as how it works, our Witch has levels in Heal and Craft (Alchemy), and he dropped a nat 20 when he tried to figure out how to do this. So we figured that he would have the basic knowledge of how medieval soap is rendered. We will probably teach some of the rebels how to make the soap (although we will probably either do the fat removal ourselves or hire "less than scrupulous peasants to do it for us). Currently, we just want to see if we can support the Rebels in Westcrown with our soap business.
Hey, for a bunch of less than reputable rebels in Cheliax, I think we're doing pretty well.
Maybe you could sell the business idea to another enterprising and unscrupulous individual. You could then figure out a way to communicate the location of new bodies via spells or animal messenger or some such thing. This way you could make a few spare coins and stay clear of the dirty work, and any of the potential ramifications to your reputations that go along with it.
As a DM I am blatantly stealing this wonderful idea. I now know what the Council does with the bodies...
At risk of starting a debate, which I don't want to do... the way I see how things impact alignment is the action itself, not how you feel about it. Many evil villians feel they are entirely justified in doing the monstrous things they do... like making soylent soap. Most paladins would balk at the idea, but I can think of a player or two at my table who would have no problem with it.
Put things in perspective. Ever seen that Sweeny Todd movie? Todd would kill the guys and Mrs. Lovett would bake them into pies. They were just performing a service for the community... right? And becuase nobody would miss who they claimed it wasn't a problem... right?
Evil actions tend to be slippery slopes filled with rationalizations. If you feel that sickening pull in the pit of your stomache when you think of how you would handle if -you- were -actually- doing it and not a character... then its probably evil.
As for doing it... well you'd need the proper mixture of lye and lard. A skill check to make sure you get the right amount of each. You can break down whats left of the bodies in any leftover lye, you just need a big tub. Stir well in both cases.
we have decided to open our own soap business.
What do you think?
The first rule of soap club is: You do not talk about soap club.
The second rule of soap club is: You do not talk about soap club.
Absolutely brilliant. Anyone consider opening up a butcher shop specializing in long pig?
Anyone consider opening up a butcher shop specializing in long pig?
I'm sure we would ... but most of the players in this group had a bad experience with the Swinomancer in Carnival of Tears. Plus, that's a bit too obvious for us....although, one suggestion was to buy ourselves some guard dogs to take care of that problem. The rot grub infestation kinda nixed that idea. We may be terrible, terrible people, but we draw the line at cruelty to animals.
If I were your DM, I'd make you all evil alignment. If you changed your ways & dumped the soap business, I'd bump you up to neutral, if you desired that.
This is disgusting and evil.
It is a good thing for the Council to do. Because it's EVIL.
The ap runs like you're trying to gain the love of Westcrown citizens. Not be disreputable or gross them out.
For instance: my players, who are all good, didn't kill any of the BoE and tied them all up & left them for the dottari. (They didn't get away, they were assassinated in jail by unknown characters)
Neutral may have killed, then buried them, burned them, or stuck them in the catacombs. There IS a catacombs below the BoE hideout.
Evil kills them and then turns them into soap, which is sold to the unsuspecting citizens of Westcrown.
Luther wrote:Exactly, if it's something that the bad guys would do that helps define them as bad... that might be a clue.
Recycling is evil?
I knew it!!!
Not only that but it's downright bad resource management. In Cheliax those bodies could have been put to much better uses. Their hearts would have made excellent lures to bind devils, tiefling skulls make great arcane foci, and their colorful skin can me made into fashionable leather coats. Let the lesser creatures be made into lye soap and tallow candles... like halflings.
The native arcadians shed a single tear at such wastefulness.
Not only that but it's downright bad resource management. In Cheliax those bodies could have been put to much better uses. Their hearts would have made excellent lures to bind devils, tiefling skulls make great arcane foci, and their colorful skin can me made into fashionable leather coats.
Excellent ideas! Thanks! We were only using the FAT from the bodies; now we can expand our busineess with all of the leftovers!
Well, If I were RUNNING the campaign, I'd say we'd all be evil now. But I'm not, and I had a hard enough time just convincing the players not to just kill every one we meet out of hand, personally I think this is a step in the right direction. And, Sweeney Todd, didn't tell anybody they were eating meat pies, I however, have insisted on truthful business practices, and honestly, what other nation are we gonna find people decadent enough to go for it.
Besides, once they're already dead, they're just meat. It's no different than a cow or pig, least that's what I'm telling the DM.
As the DM of this particular group, I must applaud both their resourcefulness and their ingenuity. I let them remain Neutral because...well, they're simply not competent enough to have done anything of REAL merit, good or evil.
IF, however, they plan on, say, butchering the bodies and selling the meat to the less than unsuspecting public, they would find themselves on the quick decent to evil. On top of this, the adventure path doesn't specify that the party must be good, just against the powers that be and such, so them being horrific in the methods they choose to accomplish change is meaningless.
At least thats what I'M telling them.
...well, they're simply not competent enough to have done anything of REAL merit, good or evil.
Really? As compered to whom? Pukey and Princess Unimpressia? And remind me what happened to your Hellknights? I mean come on! Brother of Ladder-Fu only ran into problems when he got mauled by the skeleton dogs ... and I brought on my multiple near death experiences by heading to the back door and rolling nothing but 4's for 2 hours.
the adventure path doesn't specify that the party must be good, just against the powers that be and such, so them being horrific in the methods they choose to accomplish change is meaningless.
Darn tootin we don't have to be good to fight the powers that be! Sometimes "rebel" might just mean "let anarchy reign supreme". And it's not like we aren't fighting "the good fight" ... we just are "good" while we're doing it.
No, you don't have to be good to be in this campaign.
I however, don't like evil PCs unless the campaign is tailored to that.
I can see how the people of Cheliax would be interested in the decadence of tiefling soap. It's still gross, though.
And it can't be legal...
As written, Westcrown is Lawful, and very much so. Strict laws, and fairly good enforcement.
If asnyone asks about those bright red coats just be sure to tell them that its 'special leather' imported from Tian...
While it never says you have to be good in the AP, most APs assume that while you don't have to be the most heroic of heroes that you aren't exactly monsters either. Otherwise you're likely to have just as much incientive to join the bad guys as you are to join the side as written. CoT does at least assume the PCs care at a bit about defeating shadow beasts and freeing the Westcrown nights for the citizens, it built campaign traits around it. It also assumes being able to work with Arael/the Children of Westcrown who are good on the whole. I can't imagine any of the CoW wanting to work with someone who continues to do such godawful things, Arael is a man of moral backbone.
Also, I'd never let a lack of competence be a complete excuse for the alignment system, or moral relativity for that matter. If you make soap/meat pies/candles/whatever out of sentient creatures that makes you evil. If you tell your customers this and they have no problem with it... well that just makes them evil too. Even if it happens to be lawful/accepted in one place doesn't make it not evil. Likewise the same concrete and mechanical alignments that govern everyone else shouldn't just stop for someone because they may or may not know what they are doing.
Villians in most settings will never admit that they are evil or wrong. They are convinced that their actions are fine through enormous amounts of rationalizing, much like what I'm seing here. Does that mean that the players are playing the game wrong? Not in the least! It just certainly doesn't give them or anyone free reign to explain evil actions away and have them -not- be evil. A DM has to put his foot down somewhere. Cannibalizing the corpse of a sentient creature for profit? Sounds evil to me.
Edit: I love how Squeakmaan said he'd make everyone evil if -he- were running it. Even the players know.