Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

RPG Superstar 2015

Some APG questions and concerns


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

Sczarni

I"m in a low level campaign right now and the two handed weapon fighter variant just seems obscenely powerful. 1.5 str to damage was already the main allure of fighting with a big weapon, should he really be allowed to have double that?

Overhand Chop (Ex): At 3rd level, when a two-handed
fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a
charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his
Strength bonus on damage rolls. This ability replaces
armor training 1.

Lets say our fighter has a str mod of +6 so he is normally dealing 2d6+9 on a hit. that average to 15 damage a swing. using overhand chop he gets +18 damage just from his str mod.
Losing out on armor training hurts a little bit but it isn't really a huge deal until higher levels when he misses out on being able to move full speed in heavy armor. Really it just lets dex be a dump stat. though they may still want 12-13 for the dodge feat.

then there is Backswing (Ex): At 7th level, when a two-handed
fighter makes a full attack with a two-handed weapon,
he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for
all attacks after the first. This ability replaces armor
training 2.
I'm mostly just posting this one for anyone who hasn't read the APG and thinks that overhand chop is something you can only have if you only swing once.

Sczarni

Also does a two weapon fighter using a one handed weapon in his off hand get no benefit from perfect balance?

Improved Balance (Ex): At 11th level, the attack penalties
for fighting with two weapons are reduced by –1 for a twoweapon
warrior. Alternatively, he may use a one-handed
weapon in his off-hand, treating it as if it were a light
weapon with the normal light weapon penalties. This
ability replaces armor training 3.

Perfect Balance (Ex): At 15th level, the penalties for
fighting with two weapons are reduced by an additional –1
for a two-weapon warrior. This benefit stacks with improved
balance. If he is using a one-handed weapon in his off hand,
treating it as a light weapon, he uses the normal light
weapon penalties. This ability replaces armor training 4.


in the Case of the Two weapon fighter a couple of things.

first he is geting double trength damage on /one/ attack basically when hes making a Vital strike attack or moves and attacks. Its nice but to get it he takes his first hit to armor training

Secondly on the level 7 ability, he gets it only on attacks after the first while taking his second hit to armor training.

His secondary attacks will hurt but, they are statistically less likely to hit.

i think the loss of armor training 1 and 2 is a big deal.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
magicalme1 wrote:

I"m in a low level campaign right now and the two handed weapon fighter variant just seems obscenely powerful. 1.5 str to damage was already the main allure of fighting with a big weapon, should he really be allowed to have double that?

Overhand Chop (Ex): At 3rd level, when a two-handed
fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a
charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his
Strength bonus on damage rolls. This ability replaces
armor training 1.

Lets say our fighter has a str mod of +6 so he is normally dealing 2d6+9 on a hit. that average to 15 damage a swing. using overhand chop he gets +18 damage just from his str mod.
Losing out on armor training hurts a little bit but it isn't really a huge deal until higher levels when he misses out on being able to move full speed in heavy armor. Really it just lets dex be a dump stat. though they may still want 12-13 for the dodge feat.

then there is Backswing (Ex): At 7th level, when a two-handed
fighter makes a full attack with a two-handed weapon,
he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for
all attacks after the first. This ability replaces armor
training 2.
I'm mostly just posting this one for anyone who hasn't read the APG and thinks that overhand chop is something you can only have if you only swing once.

Well Two weapon fighters have the ability to add twice their strength bonus with double slice? Why is it a problem to add this to a 2handed fighter? I honestly would have prefered it come back as a feat and not as a replacement for armor training. As it is a 2handed fighter has very few feats that add to that after power attack. Where as 2weapon fighters and sword and board fighters have lots of feats to take.

Sczarni

does steal do anything disarm didn't already do?

why would anyone take: Sharp Senses the feat when it just replaces keen senses and turns your +2 to perception into a +4? skill focus perception and alertness are strictly better.

Sczarni

Well Two weapon fighters have the ability to add twice their strength bonus with double slice? Why is it a problem to add this to a 2handed fighter? I honestly would have prefered it come back as a feat and not as a replacement for armor training. As it is a 2handed fighter has very few feats that add to that after power attack. Where as 2weapon fighters and sword and board fighters have lots of feats to take.

Double Slice (Combat)

Your off-hand weapon while dual-wielding strikes with greater power.

Prerequisite: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting.

Benefit: Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon.

Normal: You normally add only half of your Strength modifier to damage rolls made with a weapon wielded in your off-hand.

I don't think that feat does what you think it does.
Also two handed weapon fighters get a few new feats as well.


magicalme1 wrote:

I"m in a low level campaign right now and the two handed weapon fighter variant just seems obscenely powerful. 1.5 str to damage was already the main allure of fighting with a big weapon, should he really be allowed to have double that?

Overhand Chop (Ex): At 3rd level, when a two-handed
fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a
charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his
Strength bonus on damage rolls. This ability replaces
armor training 1.

Lets say our fighter has a str mod of +6 so he is normally dealing 2d6+9 on a hit. that average to 15 damage a swing. using overhand chop he gets +18 damage just from his str mod.
Losing out on armor training hurts a little bit but it isn't really a huge deal until higher levels when he misses out on being able to move full speed in heavy armor. Really it just lets dex be a dump stat. though they may still want 12-13 for the dodge feat.

then there is Backswing (Ex): At 7th level, when a two-handed
fighter makes a full attack with a two-handed weapon,
he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for
all attacks after the first. This ability replaces armor
training 2.
I'm mostly just posting this one for anyone who hasn't read the APG and thinks that overhand chop is something you can only have if you only swing once.

Just to clear this up a bit, it says "adds double his strength bonus," indicating that he gets the missing .5, not double of the 1.5. So your example'a damage would go from the 2d6+9 to 2d6+12.

Liberty's Edge

magicalme1 wrote:
does steal do anything disarm didn't already do?

Yes, you get the actual item.

Think: Ready to "steal" if an opponent pulls out a potion. Opponent pulls out potion of Cure Light Wounds..... You just got a free CLW potion if you make the check :P

Sczarni

Maldollen wrote:
magicalme1 wrote:

I"m in a low level campaign right now and the two handed weapon fighter variant just seems obscenely powerful. 1.5 str to damage was already the main allure of fighting with a big weapon, should he really be allowed to have double that?

Overhand Chop (Ex): At 3rd level, when a two-handed
fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a
charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his
Strength bonus on damage rolls. This ability replaces
armor training 1.

Lets say our fighter has a str mod of +6 so he is normally dealing 2d6+9 on a hit. that average to 15 damage a swing. using overhand chop he gets +18 damage just from his str mod.
Losing out on armor training hurts a little bit but it isn't really a huge deal until higher levels when he misses out on being able to move full speed in heavy armor. Really it just lets dex be a dump stat. though they may still want 12-13 for the dodge feat.

then there is Backswing (Ex): At 7th level, when a two-handed
fighter makes a full attack with a two-handed weapon,
he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for
all attacks after the first. This ability replaces armor
training 2.
I'm mostly just posting this one for anyone who hasn't read the APG and thinks that overhand chop is something you can only have if you only swing once.

Just to clear this up a bit, it says "adds double his strength bonus," indicating that he gets the missing .5, not double of the 1.5. So your example'a damage would go from the 2d6+9 to 2d6+12.

ah, thanks for clearing that up, it seems much more reasonable now.

Sczarni

Austin Morgan wrote:
magicalme1 wrote:
does steal do anything disarm didn't already do?

Yes, you get the actual item.

Think: Ready to "steal" if an opponent pulls out a potion. Opponent pulls out potion of Cure Light Wounds..... You just got a free CLW potion if you make the check :P

But I think disarm already did that, you just need a hand open to take it or it falls to the floor right?

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

1 person marked this as a favorite.
magicalme1 wrote:

I"m in a low level campaign right now and the two handed weapon fighter variant just seems obscenely powerful. 1.5 str to damage was already the main allure of fighting with a big weapon, should he really be allowed to have double that?

Overhand Chop (Ex): At 3rd level, when a two-handed
fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a
charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his
Strength bonus
on damage rolls. This ability replaces
armor training 1.

Lets say our fighter has a str mod of +6 so he is normally dealing 2d6+9 on a hit. that average to 15 damage a swing. using overhand chop he gets +18 damage just from his str mod.

He adds double his STR bonus.

Instead of 1.5 x his STR bonus (which is the normal benefit).

He doesn't add double TIMES 1.5 TIMES STR bonus.

magicalme1 wrote:

then there is Backswing (Ex): At 7th level, when a two-handed

fighter makes a full attack with a two-handed weapon,
he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for
all attacks after the first. This ability replaces armor
training 2.
I'm mostly just posting this one for anyone who hasn't read the APG and thinks that overhand chop is something you can only have if you only swing once.

It's either/or.

You only get Overhand Chop when you make a single attack, using an attack action or a charge. If you make more than a single attack, you don't get it. You don't get it when making multiple attacks, and you also don't get it on AoOs.

You only get Backswing when you make multiple attacks with the full attack action, on attacks after your first. If you don't make multiple attacks, you don't get it, because it doesn't apply to the first attack you make. This normally means you're only getting a better damage bonus (again, x2 STR instead of x1.5 STR, not (x2) x (x1.5) x STR), on your iterative attacks, which are less likely to hit anyway.


Austin Morgan wrote:
magicalme1 wrote:
does steal do anything disarm didn't already do?

Yes, you get the actual item.

Think: Ready to "steal" if an opponent pulls out a potion. Opponent pulls out potion of Cure Light Wounds..... You just got a free CLW potion if you make the check :P

No... the item targeted can not be held, in a bag, or pouch.

So, for the most part, weapons, scrolls, potions, wands, and the like are off limits to the Steal action.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

magicalme1 wrote:

Also does a two weapon fighter using a one handed weapon in his off hand get no benefit from perfect balance?

Improved Balance (Ex): At 11th level, the attack penalties
for fighting with two weapons are reduced by –1 for a twoweapon
warrior. Alternatively, he may use a one-handed
weapon in his off-hand, treating it as if it were a light
weapon with the normal light weapon penalties. This
ability replaces armor training 3.

Perfect Balance (Ex): At 15th level, the penalties for
fighting with two weapons are reduced by an additional –1
for a two-weapon warrior. This benefit stacks with improved
balance. If he is using a one-handed weapon in his off hand,
treating it as a light weapon, he uses the normal light
weapon penalties. This ability replaces armor training 4.

Looks like yep, as written, no benefit from PB that IB didn't already give you.

That's the price you pay for wielding two scimitars like Driz'zt, but getting to double-dip on weapon focus/spec/etc. feats.

That said, I don't think the world's gonna break if you decide to apply the -1 from PB to both weapons if they're both one-handed.

Sczarni

Jason Nelson wrote:


magicalme1 wrote:

then there is Backswing (Ex): At 7th level, when a two-handed

fighter makes a full attack with a two-handed weapon,
he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for
all attacks after the first. This ability replaces armor
training 2.
I'm mostly just posting this one for anyone who hasn't read the APG and thinks that overhand chop is something you can only have if you only swing once.

It's either/or.

You only get Overhand Chop when you make a single attack, using an attack action or a charge. If you make more than a single attack, you don't get it. You don't get it when making multiple attacks, and you also don't get it on AoOs.

You only get Backswing when you make multiple attacks with the full attack action, on attacks after your first. If you don't make multiple attacks, you don't get it, because it doesn't apply to the first attack you make. This normally means you're only getting a better damage bonus (again, x2 STR instead of x1.5 STR, not (x2) x (x1.5) x STR), on your iterative attacks, which are less likely to hit anyway.

Thanks for pointing out the either or bit, I totally missed that.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
magicalme1 wrote:

Well Two weapon fighters have the ability to add twice their strength bonus with double slice? Why is it a problem to add this to a 2handed fighter? I honestly would have prefered it come back as a feat and not as a replacement for armor training. As it is a 2handed fighter has very few feats that add to that after power attack. Where as 2weapon fighters and sword and board fighters have lots of feats to take.

Double Slice (Combat)

Your off-hand weapon while dual-wielding strikes with greater power.

Prerequisite: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting.

Benefit: Add your Strength bonus to damage rolls made with your off-hand weapon.

Normal: You normally add only half of your Strength modifier to damage rolls made with a weapon wielded in your off-hand.

I don't think that feat does what you think it does.
Also two handed weapon fighters get a few new feats as well.

What i meant is he does get to add double his strength bonus since he gets 2 attacks with his full strength bonus.

2handed fighter gets: larger damage die plus 1.5 strength normally
2weapon fighter gets: 2 attacks with smaller damage die and 1 with strength bonus, and the other with half. Double slice brings both up to full strength bonus.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Disarm only works on stuff the enemy is holding in his hands.

Steal can take amulets off their neck, cloaks from around their shoulders, potions or scrolls off their belt, weapons from their sheaths, and pretty much anything else that isn't in their hand, strapped securely to them, or stored in their pack.


magicalme1 wrote:

Also does a two weapon fighter using a one handed weapon in his off hand get no benefit from perfect balance?

Improved Balance (Ex): At 11th level, the attack penalties
for fighting with two weapons are reduced by –1 for a twoweapon
warrior. Alternatively, he may use a one-handed
weapon in his off-hand, treating it as if it were a light
weapon with the normal light weapon penalties. This
ability replaces armor training 3.

Perfect Balance (Ex): At 15th level, the penalties for
fighting with two weapons are reduced by an additional –1
for a two-weapon warrior. This benefit stacks with improved
balance. If he is using a one-handed weapon in his off hand,
treating it as a light weapon, he uses the normal light
weapon penalties. This ability replaces armor training 4.

If you look at what I've bolded you'll notice that the difference is that with Improved Balance you either get to reduce the attack roll penalty with your weapons or treat a one-handed weapon in your off-hand as a light weapon, not both. Perfect Balance ignores this restriction (letting you combine the two advantages).

Upon reading it more closely, one could be forgiven for thinking this is not the case. I'm sure that's not the intention (though I could be wrong).


I've read Improved Balance and Perfect Balance again and I think this is how it works.

Improved Balance: If your off-hand weapon is already a light weapon your attack penalty reduces to -1/-1. Alternatively, you can wield a non-light one-handed weapon in your off-hand and receive the normal light weapon penalties (-2/-2).

Perfect Balance: If your off-hand weapon is already a light weapon your attack penalty becomes +0/+0. If your off-hand weapon is a non-light one-handed weapon, your attack bonus becomes +0/-2.

I think the description of Perfect Balance plays off of the description of Improved Balance, particularly when you look at this sentence in the context of what I've said above:

"If he is using a one-handed weapon in his off hand, treating it as a light weapon, he uses the light weapon penalty instead."

It doesn't say anywhere in that sentence that the TWF loses the reduction granted by the power for his main weapon, just that if his off hand weapon is not a light weapon he gets the light weapon penalties for that attack instead.

I hope that makes sense.


Don't have my copy of the book yet. (and it gotta ship to Australia so may be awhile)

but how does The archetypes compare- my main mquestion is 'is it easier/better so far as DPR is concerned to go TWF over the other archetypes- or do TWF get some nice things?'

See We know TWF have Higher DPR than 2h but this is not until later when you get Two weapn rend. and only on a full attack. Previously taking a move action vs a tHander taking a move action meant your damage was at least 10-15 points LESS than a 2 hander. It was even worse if the 2 Hander knew Deadley Stroke. Dazzling Display with Conrugan Smash allowed free intimidates on foes hit with PA.

I got around this damage discrepency by using Two weapon Pounce from PHBII. This allowed you to attack with BOTH weapons (thus allowing Two weapon rend) whenever you charged. Damage broke about even.

My point was going the TWF route has always meant your feat investment was hugely higher for a marginal advantage in DPR only on a full attack.

Is there anything in the new APG (archetype ability or feats) that allows TWF to really outdo the THander in terms or DPR (re: two weapon pounce?)

or is there a way to layer some Combat Manuver niceness as part of two weapon fighting (like how swd n board can bull rush for free- 3.5 could trip if you use Ls,handaxe. Or disarm if LS/Dagger.)

I accept TWF is always gonna chew alot more feats than a 2 hander but is there anything that makes it really worth it now?

(I think the 'mobiliy' fighter might be best new DPR - someone mentioned at later levels they can full attack+move)

Cheers.

The Exchange

Ardenup wrote:

Don't have my copy of the book yet. (and it gotta ship to Australia so may be awhile)

but how does The archetypes compare- my main mquestion is 'is it easier/better so far as DPR is concerned to go TWF over the other archetypes- or do TWF get some nice things?'

See We know TWF have Higher DPR than 2h but this is not until later when you get Two weapn rend. and only on a full attack. Previously taking a move action vs a tHander taking a move action meant your damage was at least 10-15 points LESS than a 2 hander. It was even worse if the 2 Hander knew Deadley Stroke. Dazzling Display with Conrugan Smash allowed free intimidates on foes hit with PA.

I got around this damage discrepency by using Two weapon Pounce from PHBII. This allowed you to attack with BOTH weapons (thus allowing Two weapon rend) whenever you charged. Damage broke about even.

My point was going the TWF route has always meant your feat investment was hugely higher for a marginal advantage in DPR only on a full attack.

Is there anything in the new APG (archetype ability or feats) that allows TWF to really outdo the THander in terms or DPR (re: two weapon pounce?)

or is there a way to layer some Combat Manuver niceness as part of two weapon fighting (like how swd n board can bull rush for free- 3.5 could trip if you use Ls,handaxe. Or disarm if LS/Dagger.)

I accept TWF is always gonna chew alot more feats than a 2 hander but is there anything that makes it really worth it now?

(I think the 'mobiliy' fighter might be best new DPR - someone mentioned at later levels they can full attack+move)

Cheers.

Can't quote the exact effect that it would have on DPR, but a Two-Weapon Fighter can make an attack with each of his weapons as a standard action at level 9; at level 13, he can make attacks of oppurtunity with both weapons; at level 15, he can have a pair of one handed weapons and still only take a -1/-1 penalty to hit; and at level 17, if he hits with both attacks, he gets a free disarm or sunder attempt, or a trip attempt if one of the weapons is a trip weapon.

Whether or not that makes it "worth it" is up to you, but they definitely get some cool stuff.


AlanM wrote:


Can't quote the exact effect that it would have on DPR, but a Two-Weapon Fighter can make an attack with each of his weapons as a standard action at level 9; at level 13, he can make attacks of oppurtunity with both weapons; at level 15, he can have a pair of one handed weapons and still only take a -1/-1 penalty to hit; and at level 17, if he hits with both attacks, he gets a free disarm or...

Sigh, Looks like I'll still have to take Two weapon Pounce at level 6 and feat retrain it at level 8 (right before he gtes to do twf with a standard attack). Still it's better than nothing. And I'll probably have to stick with hogh sword/low axe.

Doesn't a TWF archetype apply his weapon training fully to both weapons?

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

Ardenup wrote:
Doesn't a TWF archetype apply his weapon training fully to both weapons?

Yes they do.


well that helps but I guess with the boost to 2handed fighting the difference will be the same. that is twf's will outdamage 2handed at high levels but the feat investment may not be worth it.

Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / General Discussion / Some APG questions and concerns All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.