Consolidated Stealth Threads (for easy FAQ clicking)


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

92 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. 3 people marked this as a favorite.

The following are three significant Stealth-related threads that have occurred in the past 6 months or so. There has been frequent discussion on the boards regarding some (most?) aspects of Stealth. In my humble opinion, it's easily the most Frequently Asked Question on the boards. Please feel free to vote in this thread to have the following questions answered, and add any questions that you yourself have in verbiage that is as clear and concise as possible. And of course, please click the "FAQ" button near the top of the post, to get this topic addressed as quickly as possible.

I'd really like to keep this thread discussion-free, intended only for specifically worded questions about the vague parts of the Stealth rules. Pretty please, with cherries on top, no discussions about Houserules here. If at all possible, please avoid bumping the threads I've linked to, some of them are dead for good reason *brandishes holy symbol*.

Many thanks!

Your servant,
J

Liberty's Edge

36 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ.

Dealing With HIPS

Does Darkvision Counter/Negate Shadowdancer HiPS? if it does not, how is the Shadowdancer actually hiding from a flavor perspective?

Does Shadowdancer HiPS actually rely on an area (read: a square) of Dim Illumination, or is the presence of a shadow sufficient? How much Shadow is enough? Could a Shadowdancer, for example, hide in the shadow of a marble?

Coming Out From Stealth

Can a Rogue who has made a Stealth Check cover any amount of open (unobstructed, unconcealed, fully illuminated) ground to Sneak Attack a target under any circumstances?

Is the presence of nearby combat enough of a distraction to allow a Rogue who has previously made a Stealth check to cover any amount of open (unobstructed, unconcealed) ground and score a Sneak Attack?

Let's talk about Stealth and perception

What does "being observed" mean, relevent to the rule that a PC cannot make a Stealth check "while being observed"? Does this mean "while an opponent CAN see you", or does it mean "while an opponent DOES see you"?

Is the default condition for all participants in Combat "Observed"?


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required.

I was debating going back and flagging that last one. Its come up a couple times. There is also the one about sneaking past a dog that MIB had like 9 months ago.

Liberty's Edge

Bumping, only going to do this once.

C'mon people, we need 'FAQ' clicks for Stealth rules clarification!

There are like 80 of you out there who participated in these discussions. NEEDS MOAR CLICKS.

Love,

J


Perhaps a few also about such things dealing with merging hide/move silently into stealth and spot/listen into perception.

For example: does being invisible make you more quiet? and the like.

But as far as the old hide questions, yes a few detailed examples of it, hide in plain sight (ranger, shadowdancer, and assassin varieties), et al would be helpful for people as it is commonly missunderstood.

-James


Has there been any post from the paizo staff in these threads ?


33 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 2 people marked this as a favorite.

In addition to the threads Jeremiziah posted there have also been these:

Can rogues Sneak Attack when stealthed? Or not?
Distractions to hide
Hide in Plain Sight
Hide in plain sight and sniping clarification
Hide in Plain Sight - Hey! Where'd she go?
How does hide in plain sight work in combat?
Rogues and hide in plain sight
Stealth Doesn't Work or How Jack B. Nimble Doesn't Steal A Chicken

Based on the number of threads and length of them I would say Jeremiziah is correct in calling it one of the most debated and misunderstood subjects on the forums.

These threads cover a lot of topics and ask a lot of questions that should probably get some official designer attention but I think some of the bigger and more frequent issues are:

1) A lot of people compare HiPS to Sniping. Do you take a penalty to Stealth when using HiPS while observed? A clear cut defined difference between HiPS and Sniping.

1a) Does HiPS in any way mimic or use the Sniping mechanic or is it a totally separate mechanic?

2) How exactly does Sniping play out? Are you momentarily seen or do you in fact remain unseen through the entire maneuver? (Not including HiPS)

3) What exactly is the interaction between Darkvision, Lowlight Vision, Tremorsence, Blindsence, Blindsight, or Scent and Stealth or HiPS? (both Shadowdancer and Ranger HiPS)

3a) Primary focus being: Is Shadowdancer/Assassin HiPS defeated by Darkvision?

3b) Secondary focus: Does Scent auto-defeat Stealth?

4) Can you maintain Stealth while coming out of concealment/cover as long as you began Stealth in/behind concealment/cover? (Not including HiPS)

4a) Can the interaction between Stealth and Perception be representative of a facing system and "staying out of someone's LoS?"

5) Can you make a Stealth check in bright or normal light using only Concealment? Are the lighting rules stating you can't a misprint? (Not including HiPS)

6) Can you make a Stealth check if observed, without first distracting the opponent, if you have cover/concealment? (Not including HiPS)

7) What are the mechanical differences between Ranger HiPS and Shadowdancer/Assassin HiPS if any? (Not including the difference in required circumstance: Shadow or Favored Terrain)

8) Does Shadowdancer/Assassin HiPS rely on the concealment of the nearby shadows to function? Or is it the simple proximity of shadows?

8a) Does the Shadowdancer wrap himself in shadows to use HiPS or is he empowered to use this ability by the presence of shadow?

8b) This is a (SU) ability for Shadowdancers and Assassins but what spells could it draw comparison to, or at least what school. Is it more like Darkness Evocation or Shadow Illusion?

9) How does HiPS look (fluff description of look/feel) for each class?

...

Well I think that's it for now. If I think of anything else I will post again. Good idea Jeremiziah, I hope we see some FAQ attention from this. Or maybe even an All about Stealth/HiPS book published by Paizo! That would be awesome.

Fred Ohm wrote:
Has there been any post from the paizo staff in these threads ?

No, not that I have seen or remember anyway. Nethys has posted 3.5 FAQ concerning qualifying for Sneak Attack if you attack from successful Stealth. I think that's been all.

::EDIT - FAQ button pressed!::

The Exchange

Well I guess I don't need to post anything because Shadowlord posted the threads I was involved in...

It does make me chuckle that through this sort of FAQ thread my use of cake as an example of cover mechanics might well live on forever...how could I not be happy about that?

Liberty's Edge

MiB's Jack B Nimble/Chicken thread is hilarious...somehow I never saw that one.


Hey all you Stealth fans out there. We need to show some support for this so maybe we can get some FAQ updates/clarifications. All it requires is pressing the FAQ button on the top post. Everyone who has argued points about Stealth on these forums should be happy to support this idea; it could potentially earn some designer attention on the questions we have been arguing over the course of several long threads. Post your questions, or if you don't have new questions but would like to see answers to questions already posted, hit the FAQ button on J's top post.


Nice.

At the very least, it points to all the threads that go over this stuff in detail, from multiple points of view.
Someone new coming in to this would at least have all he needs to decide how he wants to rule Stealth, even if this never gets set in stone.


My next character is an Arcane Trickster who specializes in Ranged Touch Attacks, as sneak attacks.

I find this thread helpful.


I've just recently noted the presence of the FAQ flag button.

Since this thread has links to all those previously heated debates (where I partecipated, too), I've made my part flagging it :D .

Good idea Jeremiziah !


Bumping this, clarifications on stealth rules would indeed be helpful.


I did my part, lets find out what the developers have to say, very interesting topic, and needs some clarification.


Yet another Stealth related question.

A few STEALTH questions.

Lets keep the ball rolling on Stealth FAQ and see if we can't get some designer clarification on some of these.


Another question about Stealth. This thread deals with the gap in penalties/rules for moving using Stealth between half speed at -5 and running, attacking, and charging which is impossible. There is no listed penalty for moving at your normal speed.


This thread has a few interesting Stealth questions that haven't come up in a while. Specific Stealth Questions

1) The first question has to do with situations utilizing the Bluff/Stealth maneuver and Sniping.

2) Can a Rogue use Sneak Attack from Stealth?


Dunno if it's been asked, but:

[b]How is it Invisibility adds +20 to Stealth when it relies entirely on sight? A character shouldn't be harder for an enemy to hear them using Stealth since Invisibility only makes you lack the sight to notice them. This is why Listen and Spot should've been seperate Perception uses of the skill, or Hide, and Move Silently seperate uses of the Stealth skill

Silver Crusade

All of you stealth fans out there does the Rouge Talant Fast Stealth limit you to your base speed or can you run with Fast Stealth?

Fast Stealth (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to move at
full speed using the Stealth skill without penalty.


@ Razz: Yes it has been asked, many times. The answer is Stealth now encompasses all the things you would do to remain unnoticed (both by visual and audio means, as well as other senses) and Perception are your senses as a whole (sight, sound, touch, smell, taste, perhaps even the RP inclusion of borderline sixth senses). Invisibility works the way it does because it is a mechanic, it can be explained any way you want. But the most obvious reasons are: People rely most heavily on their sense of vision. Therefore if something makes you invisible you will be far harder to detect. The bonus to Stealth is not a reflection of anything hindering the hearing ability of a person using Perception, but rather the inability for someone to visually detect something even if they do hear it. Look at the specific rules for invisibility. It is only a flat DC 20 Perception check to know that something invisible is within 30' of you, but just because you can hear it doesn't mean you can pinpoint it. Especially when that invisible something is doing its best to remain silent as well. Also think of real life. How many times have you been startled because you thought you heard something and upon investigation, when you SEE that there is nothing there, you go on about your business confident that you are just hearing things. How do you know that wasn't an invisible Rogue sneaking past you. In real life you can be confident that such things are impossible. But in the game, you don't know, and likely never will. Also in real life, how often have you had to use sound to help you find something, like a lost phone? You use the sound to help you hone into a roughly 5' area, then visually zero in on the actual position of the phone. Personally I think the consolidated rolls are a much needed and welcomed streamline.

@ Lou Diamond: You are still limited to your full base speed. You simply don't take the normal -5 penalty for moving that fast. This talent doesn't say anything about changing the fact that it is impossible to run, charge, or attack while using Stealth. There is no reason, inferred or otherwise, to indicate it would change that. It does exactly what it says it does, allow you to move at your full speed without penalties to Stealth.

Liberty's Edge

It has been marked "not an error" in my original post. I am not sure sure what more the community can do to plead for clarification on these issues. I have not seen another thread that had anything approaching 48 clicks. I know Paizo is busy, believe me, I know this. But a lot of people are really hoping for an answer on these questions.

I'm not going to carry the torch on this anymore - if the Golems don't want to clarify Stealth, I'll leave them be. I will only state from a personal viewpoint that, were I publishing a game, I'd want to make sure that an iconic ability tied very closely to several base classes had clear and definable parameters.

To put it another way, nobody in my group plays a Rogue, nor have they since PFRPG came out. Nor will they, because these rules are very much in question.

None of this is to say that I have any problem with Paizo or PFRPG. I have fun playing it every week. I am satisfied. I would have more fun and be more satisfied if this was actually given some attention, that's all.


Here is another thread on the question ofDarkvision and Stealth. And I would like to keep this thread alive. Even if we don't get a solid set of guidelines from the designers this would be an excellent thread to come back to and be able to reference all the major Stealth discussions that are linked here.

The Exchange

Shadowlord wrote:
Here is another thread on the question ofDarkvision and Stealth. And I would like to keep this thread alive. Even if we don't get a solid set of guidelines from the designers this would be an excellent thread to come back to and be able to reference all the major Stealth discussions that are linked here.

+1

I [heart] consolidation.


Another thread for the Consolidation: Stealth Clarification.


Another Stealth thread: Stealth: When is a creature considered to be observed?.

Dark Archive

dot for reading.

Sovereign Court

Here's some more Stealth related info :)

Cheliax pathfinder companion book

Hellcat stealth You are difficult to see in the light. 
Prerequisites: Skill Focus (Stealth), Stealth 6 ranks. 
Benefit: You may make Stealth checks in normal or bright light even when observed, but at a –10 penalty. Normal: You cannot make Stealth checks while observed.

Ninja lvl 2 has option to spend ki points to become invisible - 1 ki point per round Charisma-based
-can still be tracked by Scent & tracks so:

Conceal scent Feat (Osirion pathfinder companion book) 
- creatures can't find you using their Scent ability

Trackless boots (Second Darkness pathfinder companion book)
3,500gp +4 stealth plus boots leave no trace like 'pass without trace' spell

Grand Lodge

Has the Night Subdomain been mentioned?


Shadowlord wrote:

In addition to the threads Jeremiziah posted there have also been these:

Can rogues Sneak Attack when stealthed? Or not?
Distractions to hide
Hide in Plain Sight
Hide in plain sight and sniping clarification
Hide in Plain Sight - Hey! Where'd she go?
How does hide in plain sight work in combat?
Rogues and hide in plain sight
Stealth Doesn't Work or How Jack B. Nimble Doesn't Steal A Chicken

Based on the number of threads and length of them I would say Jeremiziah is correct in calling it one of the most debated and misunderstood subjects on the forums.

These threads cover a lot of topics and ask a lot of questions that should probably get some official designer attention but I think some of the bigger and more frequent issues are:

1) A lot of people compare HiPS to Sniping. Do you take a penalty to Stealth when using HiPS while observed? A clear cut defined difference between HiPS and Sniping.

1a) Does...

Shadowlord, sorry for the thread rez. I'm somewhat new to the messageboards; your post says it has been answered in the FAQ but I don't know how to see that answer. Could you help me?


Unfortunately, you'd need to go to an individual product page and click on the FAQ link and then scroll through all the FAQs to find them. Only in the past year or so did the design folks leave a post with the FAQ quoted along with a direct link to the FAQ.

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