even a dex 13 monk can roll a 20 Init.Ninja's baby.. and you thought I was a 13 dex monk muahahaExcept the requirement of having one metamagic feat before taking them. But there has to be at least one that isn't trash.In 3.5 sculpt spell was on that list for me -- but you needed another metamagic to get it.
*mutters something about sudden empowered quickened maximized stunning fist*
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even a dex 13 monk can roll a 20 Init.Ninja's baby.. and you thought I was a 13 dex monk muahahaExcept the requirement of having one metamagic feat before taking them. But there has to be at least one that isn't trash.In 3.5 sculpt spell was on that list for me -- but you needed another metamagic to get it.
Or be a 17th level Weapon Adept Monk and always have a 20 init.
Or be a 17th level Weapon Adept Monk and always have a 20 init.even a dex 13 monk can roll a 20 Init.Ninja's baby.. and you thought I was a 13 dex monk muahahaExcept the requirement of having one metamagic feat before taking them. But there has to be at least one that isn't trash.In 3.5 sculpt spell was on that list for me -- but you needed another metamagic to get it.
Well if I'm stuck with 13 dex at least I qualify for dodge.. Can't touch this dun duh da dun da doo da doo can't touch this.
hmm Hey GM can I reroll? These stats aren't high enough for my taste.
Craft Rod is better than all of the metamagic feats put together. Mainly because it allows you to make half-price Metamagic Rods for all of them, which let you apply Metamagic on the fly.
The only issue I see is that you have to have the feat to craft the rod. Each of the rod requirements lists the base feat. It seems worth twice the price to not require the feat.
Sigurd
Since the advent of 3.0, I've played several spellcasters and I've played with dozens of spellcasters played by a dozen different players. In all that time I've only seen a couple players choose just one or two metamagic feats for all those casters.
Then we came up with a houserule system that lets everyone spontaneously apply metamagic on the fly without raising the spell level.
Totally agreed. No one in any games I've been in has bothered with metamagic feats. They're lame. However, in 3.5 the "sudden" metamagic feats that let you do it a couple times a day without a level bump - those were more popular. Still not all that popular, but not shunned like demented pariahs.
Craft Rod is better than all of the metamagic feats put together. Mainly because it allows you to make half-price Metamagic Rods for all of them, which let you apply Metamagic on the fly.The only issue I see is that you have to have the feat to craft the rod. Each of the rod requirements lists the base feat. It seems worth twice the price to not require the feat.
Sigurd
You can craft them without needing the metamagic feat by adding +5 to the DC of the check.
OK, so my off-the-cuff read appears to match the consensus. The two metamagic feats I've been considering for one character are Extend Spell or Still Spell. (She's an EK build, so Still Spell allows wearing armor without burning a quick action.)
My Sorcerer is a Fey bloodline (3rd level), in Legacy of Fire, with the following stats/traits/feats:
Stats: STR 10, DEX 14, CON 11, INT 12, WIS 10, CHA 16+2 (18 point build)
Traits: Reactionary, Missionary (Sense Motive)
Feats: Improved Initiative, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Spell Focus (Illusion).
Spells: Sleep (DC18), Burning Hands (DC15), Color Spray (DC16), Entangle (DC15)
At level 4, I expect to pick up Hypnotic Pattern as my 2nd level spell and to swap out Sleep for Unseen Servant. Stat Bump will be to CON.
At 5th, I get Grease, Acid Arrow, and Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment). And Hideous Laughter as a Bloodline spell, with DC21.
If I'd been aware of just how little damage I'd be taking in a party with a ranger, a fighter, a paladin, a stabbity rogue and a "tidal wave of summoned critters" druid, I'd've probably started with a 19 CHA. (The druid is also themed for fire spells, so I'm avoiding overlap where I can find something comparable.)
As it is, Level 3 mostly sucks for me. :) I have the most awesome Sleep spell in the world, and fights that involve critters too big for it to effect. Level 5, when I get a DC21 Hideous Laughter, will be tres fun. I just have to live to that point...
I have no idea what feat(s) I'll be taking at 7th. I get two (Bloodline and 'regular')
There is only one thing I can recommend from 3.5 in regards it metamagic.
Incantrix. That is all.
For sorcerer metamagic isn't so bad, mainly because it gives options and versatility, though I agree it lacks in actual power, then with the APG favored class bonus coming up which allows you many more spells it seems to detract a bit from the metamagic's charm, but still you could argue it gives even more options since more spells means more combinations.
A wizard might have some interesting options, since it can cast a spell from it's bonded item once, this might be an on the fly metamagic spell like a quickened, stilled or silent spell.
In the APG there is a prefered spell feat allowing to cast one spell spontaneously which also lends itself well to metamagic.
Craft Rod is better than all of the metamagic feats put together. Mainly because it allows you to make half-price Metamagic Rods for all of them, which let you apply Metamagic on the fly.
Caster Level 17 for most of them...
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For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself.
Creating some rods may entail other prerequisites beyond or other than spellcasting. See the individual descriptions for details.
Requirements Craft Rod, Empower Spell; Cost 4,500 gp (lesser), 16,250 gp (normal), 36,500 gp (greater)
While rods have a caster level, there is nothing in the rules that says you must have an equal or higher caster level to create them. Even if you did...
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.
Thus, 9th level casters can craft rods. Is this where I use QED?
I don't know how relevant this is or if it's even been mentioned before but in Monte Cook's
Book of Experimental Might he's basically given the Metamagic Feats per day usages.
I've introduced that for my Pathfinder game and it's made the spell-casters in the party at least a little willing to take a look at them. Other than that the idea of burning a higher level spell on a feat really makes those feats fairly unattractive.
One thing I've considered is asking the Gm if metamagic feats can consume extra spell slots of the same level instead of a slot of +X levels higher.
So a Quickened Grease spell costs 5 1st level slots.
If you consume slots that are one level higher than the spell, they count as 1.5x slots and two levels higher count as 2 slots for meeting this prerequisite. Fractional spell slots can be combined. Learning three Silent Magic Missiles would consume 3 extra 1st level slots, or 2 2nd level slots.
stuff and...
Thus, 9th level casters can craft rods. Is this where I use QED?
Yes that would be a very apt use of QED!
New rules for crafting is getting out of hand in my campain, as I am using 3.5 sources, landing me with a group that is optimized in every feasible regard. Even encounters 3 CR over their APL is over in 2-3 rounds without PC casualties. They are level 9, with AC 30+, the fighting characters have +20< to hit, and easily deal triple digits.
Oh well, some people prefer to play their games on "Very Easy" mode. Still fun to slap them in the face with the odd optimized home-made NPC that target their few weak spots and keep them on their toes when they get arrogant.
And no, none of them have metamagic feats. (Just to stay on topic :P )
They are NOT. Buy a metamagic rod instead. You get the benefit of the feat, yet don't have to use up higher level spell slots. Save your feats for other things.
I don't know how relevant this is or if it's even been mentioned before but in Monte Cook's
Book of Experimental Might he's basically given the Metamagic Feats per day usages.I've introduced that for my Pathfinder game and it's made the spell-casters in the party at least a little willing to take a look at them. Other than that the idea of burning a higher level spell on a feat really makes those feats fairly unattractive.
A dm I know uses a system like that. Each feat can be used a certain number of times per day. Like.. For example. ones that increase spell levels by 1? Six times for day. By two, 5 times per day. And so on.
Problem is. He allows up to three feats to combine.
Ever seen a twin spelled maximized quickened summon monster spell?
It ain't fun. My barbarian watches 12 celestial rhinoes just eat everything.
And don't even get me started on the empowered, maximized twin spelled fireball.
Terrible thing about that game. I've taken more damage than any two people combined. OR three people combined. Dm's Dice like to crit me. Its a .. Rare magic campaign. I won't say low magic, but it is rare. The magic you do find is extra awesome though.
Empowered Fireball vs Cone of Cold: The save is irrelevant, you assume the enemy is going to make the save if they are any kind of tough. AoE's are minion killers, not boss killers...they only soften things up. If you want to specifically kill the monster, and not saturate an area, you use Scorching Ray or something similar.
The metamagic Rods are nice, but the problem is you can only use one at a time. THe Rods help blaster magic become useful, but without stacking metamagic, all they are is a few extra d6's on dmg.
Maximize is +3 levels for +2.5 dmg/die. Empower is +2 levels for +1.75 dmg/die. Unless you are dealing with a spell that inflicts d8s (like, possibly one of the Sacred spells vs undead/evil outsiders), Maximize isn't worth it. Now, if you can shrink it's cost down to +1 or +2, THEN it's worth it.
Blaster builds take time to mature, but once you do, they are great fun to play. You can take down ANYTHING, without having to worry about saves wasting your action...and even if you don't kill something, you put a major hurting on it for the rest of the party to take advantage of...unlike, say, missing that Domination spell.
==Aelryinth
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I seem to remember someone mentioning Arcane Thesis from Player's Handbook 2 earlier in the thread and I thought I'd take this opportunity to point out the errata for that feat.
"Page 74– Arcane Thesis [Substitution]
Should read, “When you apply any metamagic feats
other than Heighten Spell” Thus if you were to
prepare an empowered maximized magic missile
(assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for
your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th
level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2;
and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3)."
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a for old 3.5 errata
Thus making the feat that much more awesome. With this feat, the silent spell feat, and the still spell, that one spell you have as an arcane thesis can be cast at its normal spell level. Does it make metamagic worth it? No not really. As has been said your best bet is probably to rely on rods of metamagic. But a sorcerer should atleast consider the potential use for stilled silent knock or silent invisible and such it such. Also heightened spell combining with metamagic rods may be useful.
You can't negatize that feat. It reduces by 1, to a minimum of 0 (official errata). So stacking a bunch of 0 cost feats on it does not let you effectively apply the -1 to OTHER feats...which I'm sure you knew, and just wanted to reinterpret to your benefit. Having a Banespelled Fireball be a 2nd level spell, where a plain one is 3rd, makes no logical sense whatsoever.
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Arcane Thesis is actually the key to any blaster build. It's the only valid feat of non-Epic level that applies to multiple metamagic, and it's the only one that reduces the costs to 0 (Efficient Metamagic and Metamagic Spell reduce to a minimum of 1...ergo, no Efficent Metamagic still spells, silent spells, etc).
Because of Arcane Thesis, your job becomes to pick a good blaster spell and Meta specifically to that spell. Best choices are Magic Missile and Scorching Ray.
Metamagic Rods don't solve the damage problem for a non-devoted blasting spells...but they DO stack with a Devoted Blaster's Metamagic.
==Aelryinth
Every time I think about taking a metamagic feat for my Sorcerer, I run into the following issues:
1) Everything other than Quicken Spell is a full round casting.
I've found that I often don't need to move more than 5 ft. step when playing a spellcaster anyway. If I do, I just won't use a metamagic that round (other than Quicken Spell, of course).
2) A metamagic feat coupled with a low level spell seems to be less effective than just casing a spell of the appropriate level.
This is true, especially of empower spell, but as a sorcerer, you have a very limited spell selection and will seldom have a higher level version of the same or similar spell. As a wizard, I tend to avoid things like empower spell because I can just prepare a better spell in that slot instead. Sorcerers don't always have that option. Also, if you're not talking about the damage-increasing metamagics, most of the other metamagics alter spells in ways that you don't usually see in higher level spells.
Also, the arcane bloodline helps alot with this by increasing the save DC of metamagic spells and letting you cast them without increasing the casting time.
I see a partial exception for Still Spell/Silent Spell; they're feats that would be useful for casting a spell if I were bound/gagged/both. However that seems like a very situational case. (For Eldritch Knight, Still Spell is wonderful, but that's also very situational.)
As with all "situational" things, you may not need them very often, but they're a godsend when you do. Silent and Still spell are particularly valuable if you have a good amount of social interactions in your game. Most people will take afront to having charms and suggestions being cast in such situations. With silent and still spell, you can cast such spells without anyone noticing the act. That is an extremely powerful ability. It's also very useful for image spells and things like detect thoughts. I've found these feats to be invaluable for a sorcerer, and almost always take them when I play one.
You can't negatize that feat. It reduces by 1, to a minimum of 0 (official errata). So stacking a bunch of 0 cost feats on it does not let you effectively apply the -1 to OTHER feats...which I'm sure you knew, and just wanted to reinterpret to your benefit. Having a Banespelled Fireball be a 2nd level spell, where a plain one is 3rd, makes no logical sense whatsoever.
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Arcane Thesis is actually the key to any blaster build. It's the only valid feat of non-Epic level that applies to multiple metamagic, and it's the only one that reduces the costs to 0 (Efficient Metamagic and Metamagic Spell reduce to a minimum of 1...ergo, no Efficent Metamagic still spells, silent spells, etc).
Because of Arcane Thesis, your job becomes to pick a good blaster spell and Meta specifically to that spell. Best choices are Magic Missile and Scorching Ray.
Metamagic Rods don't solve the damage problem for a non-devoted blasting spells...but they DO stack with a Devoted Blaster's Metamagic.
==Aelryinth
Er yes it does. The errata and the feat has no such limit of a minimum of zero for the metamagic as other reducers does.
What it does have is a limit on the final slot level of the spell in the errata
"A spell cannot be reduced to below its
original level with the use of this feat."So one could not for example have an invisible fireball being a 2nd level slot but stacking on another metamagic feat first that raises the level of the slot to four would be fine as at no time does the spell ever dip below its original slot level.
Please note that feats that do not change the level must be interpenetrated as a +0 since if not then they automatically set the spell to its normal level when applied last as per uses a spell slot of the spell’s normal level thus making arcane thesis of little use.
A metamagic feat reduced to -1 does not change the original spell's level.
That -1 cannot be applied to another feat...that's applying -1 to TWO feats, not just one, and the feat does not do that.+0 base metas do not lower the cost of other metas. Examples were given to that point in the errata, too.
Not feat efficient, anyways.
==Aelryinth
I play quite a few sorcerers and most of them take Heighten Spell. Like someone said earlier, being able to raise Charm Person to a 4th level spell helps allow me to take another great 4th level spell, rather than taking Charm Monster, for instance. There are other lower and mid level spells like this example which make the one feat investment worth it, IMHO.
IS intensify spell out of the APG? It's a half strength version of the 3.5 spell that does the same, by 10 dice. I don't see it in the Pathfinder SRD.
==Aelryinth
IS intensify spell out of the APG? It's a half strength version of the 3.5 spell that does the same, by 10 dice. I don't see it in the Pathfinder SRD.
==Aelryinth
Yes, it's in the APG. If you want to do some blasting now-and-then, I think it's quite a good feat. Instead of having fireball and empower to substitute cone of cold as a 5th level 15d6 spell, you could have fireball and intensify to substitute it as a 4th level spell.
Yes, it's in the APG. If you want to do some blasting now-and-then, I think it's quite a good feat. Instead of having fireball and empower to substitute cone of cold as a 5th level 15d6 spell, you could have fireball and intensify to substitute it as a 4th level spell.IS intensify spell out of the APG? It's a half strength version of the 3.5 spell that does the same, by 10 dice. I don't see it in the Pathfinder SRD.
==Aelryinth
I still remember the Intensify Spell Epic Metamagic Feat (+7 spell levels) which Maximized AND THEN Doubled the effects of a spell... which was basically a 'patch' for damaging spells in a system with no level caps. It is included in the SRD, too.
SRD -> Epic Feats -> Intensify Spell
INTENSIFY SPELL [METAMAGIC][EPIC]
Prerequisites: Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Spellcraft 30 ranks, ability to cast 9th-level arcane or divine spells.
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an intensified spell are maximized, then doubled. An intensified spell deals twice maximum damage, cures twice the maximum number of hit points, affects twice the maximum number of targets, and so forth, as appropriate. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected. An intensified spell uses up a spell slot seven levels higher than the spell’s actual level. A character can’t combine the effects of this feat with any other feat that affects the variable, numeric effects of a spell.
The Feat Index at WoTC does not show any other 'Intensify Spell' feat except for the one I mentioned above.
This new metamagic feat in the APG, on the other side, seems really a good idea for lower-level spells already at their maximum cap (an Empowered Cone of Cold at 20th level is still more damaging, since it would be 22d6 against 20d6 from an Intensified Cone of Cold - however, I would prefer to spend a 6th-level slot rather than a 7th-level one only for 2d6 more).
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Reach Spell: Increases the range to the next highest category. Again, not always useful, but a lifesaver when it is.
It can increase the range by more than one category. Each "step" up increases the spell's range by 1 level. So a touch spell can be cast at long range for +3 levels. This has "Clerics, pick me please" written all over it (spontaneously pop a Cure X Wounds on any ally at range? Yes please!)
The Bouncing Spell feat ameliorates save or suck spells, and the one that forces a reroll on a sucessful save is also an extremely nice metamagic feat from the APG as well.
I had an idea for a metamagic user, although not a combat use
6th level diviner
Trait: Magical Lineage (detect thoughts)
Feats: Silent Spell, Still Spell
Spells: Detect Thoughts, Magic AuraYou walk into some crazy non-combat situation, and you want to spy on everybody's mind without anybody finding out.
Round 1: Cast a Silent, Still detect thoughts, due to Magical Lineage trait reduces the original level of the spell by 1 for purposes of metamagic, so it's only level 3 total.
Round 2: Cast a Silent, Still magic aura on your detect thoughts, another level 3 spell. Now it looks (to anyone watching with detect magic up) like someone cast a divination spell _on you_ for 1 round, and then nothing.So, for a while, you can spy on mean NPC's brains, as long as nobody is super-intelligent. You can do this with no items, nothing that would tip off your opposition that you were anything other than a librarian with funny glasses or some such.
Except Neither Silent Spell nor Still Spell let you hide your spellcasting.
To wit: Anyone with one rank of Spellcraft can attempt to identify your spell while it is being cast. This is an automatic thing that everyone in the room could do if they have a rank of Spellcraft. You'll note that there is nothing in Silent Spell or Still Spell that prevents this check, or that even makes this check harder in any way.
Which means that all those people in the room who have a rank of Spellcraft still see you do something, even if you don't chant arcane words or make mystical gestures in the air, and they can immediately roll to identify what you just cast. And all the rest of the people who have zero ranks of Spellcraft still see exactly the same thing as the Spellcraft crowd (they see you doing something to cast a spell), they just don't know how to identify the spell you just cast.
The difference on Empower vs Paizo Intensify is that Empower gives you the additional dmg right now...with intensify you actually have to level up and wait for it. 15d6 at 10th vs 15d6 at 15...same problem vs cone cold/empowered fireball.
Is it stackable for 5,5,5, or just once only?
Also note...with Arcane Thesis, it is FREE if the mod is +1. Boo yeah, Magic missile builds ride again!
Note: Scorching Ray has a 'number of Rays' cap, which are fixed dmg. This does nothing for them.
wow, does that give Magic Missile builds a high level kick. Assuming you do not take Force Missile Mage, that's basically a double dmg effect at level 20...and if you do, it's still awesome!
===Aelryinth
stuffs
I would definitely give the "terrible conditions" penalty (probably twice -- once for each feat) to the person trying to identify a spell being cast in a room full of people talking that is still and/or silent along with the distracted penalty.
"Convince me that metamagic feats are worth taking."
[Lights dim. Eye-level hypnotic pinwheel activates.]
[chanting] "Metamagic feats are worth taking. Metamagic feats are worth taking. Metamagic feats are worth taking!"
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
This really made me laugh. Thanks.
J.
Some metamagics from the APG have very nice options. I also like Extend Spell from the core.
Selective Spell emulates the Archmage shaping ability with a +1 level adjustment. It's available at 10th level at the earliest, though.
What are the prerequisites of Selective Spell?
This really made me laugh. Thanks.
J.
That's what I'm here for. :) BTW, just so it doesn't seem like I contribute nothing to a discussion, the answer to, "Are metamagic feats worth taking?" the answer is the same as it is for any feat. "They are if they fit your character concept."
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
Except Neither Silent Spell nor Still Spell let you hide your spellcasting.
To wit: Anyone with one rank of Spellcraft can attempt to identify your spell while it is being cast. This is an automatic thing that everyone in the room could do if they have a rank of Spellcraft. You'll note that there is nothing in Silent Spell or Still Spell that prevents this check, or that even makes this check harder in any way.
Which means that all those people in the room who have a rank of Spellcraft still see you do something, even if you don't chant arcane words or make mystical gestures in the air, and they can immediately roll to identify what you just cast. And all the rest of the people who have zero ranks of Spellcraft still see exactly the same thing as the Spellcraft crowd (they see you doing something to cast a spell), they just don't know how to identify the spell you just cast.
I'm sorry but I just don't buy that someone can identify something with no signs.
Spellcraft reads "Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors."
If you can't see the spell, much less its somatic component, you can't make the check.
I'm sorry but I just don't buy that someone can identify something with no signs.
Spellcraft reads "Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors."
If you can't see the spell, much less its somatic component, you can't make the check.
Who said the verbal, somatic, or material components are the only signs of a spell being cast?
The same way you can AoO someone for using a SLA?
I'm sorry but I just don't buy that someone can identify something with no signs.
That's because they have to concentrate on the spell. That's not because you saw them casting the spell/activating the spell-like ability, it's because they left themselves momentarily open to attack when they diverted their attention.
Who said the verbal, somatic, or material components are the only signs of a spell being cast?
What other signs would there be?
Who said the verbal, somatic, or material components are the only signs of a spell being cast?What other signs would there be?
Could be all kinds of things. Maybe the sound in vicinity changes. Maybe there's a visible aura around a casting mage. Maybe runes appear briefly around him.
No, none of that is directly supported -- but neither is it supported that spells with no V/S components are immune to being identified with Spellcraft checks.
neither is it supported that spells with no V/S components are immune to being identified with Spellcraft checks.
It is clear that you need to see the spell being cast. A guy who looks like he is concentrating on something does not necessarily look like a guy casting a spell. As to the appearance of the "obvious spellcasting" that you describe, that kind of flavor should be controlled by the player just as the appearance of his character or his character's clothes should be. If I want to play an obvious power house of a spellcaster, he shines magic as he casts. If I want to play a spellcasting spy, you can bet it will be far less visible.
Also, if not to conceal spellcasting, what is the point of silent and still spell?
Surely they aren't exclusively for escaping (and they can't even get you out of a grapple on their own anymore).