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First off, I want to say thanks to the whole Paizo clan...the APG truly has some very cool stuff in it, complementing the rest of the PFRPG line wonderfully.
That said, why do you hate the summoner so?
The summoner is a great idea for a class...I loved the idea as soon as I saw it, but with each pass at it from the original playtest, it has been beaten further and further into "Not Quite as Useful" land. Now, maybe most of this frustration stems from having seen it from "beta" to "final" and seeing what it once was and could have been, but I think my issues stem from seeing that view, and then hearing the reasons why it's not that view anymore.
Here are a couple of examples I am really refering to:
- * Eidolon Can't Wear Armor - yes, armor cracked the Eidolon out too much, but taking it away completely made them a bit too squishy. Without my summoner basically casting (or wanding) Mage Armor "constantly", my Eidolon has a great chance of dropping. And since the Eidolon is honestly meant as a front-line warrior, this seems odd to me.
* Magic Items - awesome addition/clarification, but to make it either the Eidolon or Summoner? As we level, that essentially makes me choose between making my summoner a more effective caster or my Eidolon a worthwhile fighter. I guess this was the intent...but I'm not sure why there couldn't have been some crossover.
* Nerf of our SLA - really?? This is one thing that made this class fun to play -- our beater/tank was out there and we could still throw some utility/ranged help out as well.
Battlefield spamming? We couldn't spam any worse (if even as well as) any druid, sorcerer or wizard. Maybe, if a summoner for some reason took the Summon spells, we might be able to throw one more creature out there...but I for one never had more than my Eidolon and one summoned creature out there at at time.
If you were going to make the Summon Monster SLA and Eidolon use the same "source", why couldn't you have given us something else...anything...more skill points, skill focus, throw in spell focus(abj) and/or augment summoning...more evo points for the Eidolon...almost anything like that would be more useful....especially because.....
* Eidolon still takes 1 min to summon - I'm hoping this is errata'd given this statement from the preview:
the big one was a change to how often the summoner can call his eidolon. He can now summon the ally as often as he likes (provided it has not been banished due to damage recently), but he cannot use his summon monster ability at the same time. This allows him to keep the flexibility needed with the summoned creatures, but prevents him from overrunning the battlefield with too many creatures.And please don't tell me the Summon Eidolon spell is what that was referring to...because as far as I can tell this spell is nearly worthless, and I can't see anyone taking this as one of their few, precious slots.
OK, well, I think I've been negative enough, but I had to get some of that off my chest and see if anyone can give me some answers/advice. Like I said, I'm really happy with most of PFRPG and PFS and I really like the idea of this class, and it is fun to play overall, but I just kinda feel like we got the shaft while most of the other classes (Alchemist specifically) got some sweet, sweet Bulmahn love. :)
Oh and in closing, I did want to say thank you for giving us Haste back at level 2. :)
Whole lotta stuff.
+1 to all of that.
I loved playing my Summoner but now that it's an insubstantial ectoplasmic phantasmorphic shadow of an idea of a creature... well, I gotta find another character class to play once APG comes out.
Basically if these changes are as expected it kicks the summoner back a tier. Its no longer in the same class as the druid, wizard, and cleric, but its still going to be a good class.
The one thing i really agree with was the summoner should have just gotten something else instead of the summon sla's rather then put them in the same source as the eidolon. The eidolon is the focus of the class, you are almost always going to have your eidolon in use and want it there. The summons sla's are just going to end up going unused most of the time. An equivalent of the acid dart would probably have been more useful.
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Hmm reading the spell section I see a spell called summon Eidlon which allows you to summon the eidlon for 1 minute a lvl. Now I could be mistaken but from my reading of the summon monster ability the summoner gets this would allow you to have both the eidlon and one of the extended summons out at the same time.
i did notice that there are spells which let you summon your Eidolon like any other summoing spell.
You should be able to use that spell and the SLA summon.. but i dont kow what the official word ont hat is.
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OK, I could buy that, but again, it's like Summon Monster as a spell...we have few slots as it is given that's what the Summoner him/herself does primarily (I'm speaking about just the summoner, not the eidolon), and I don't think I'd be willing to fill up a 2nd level slot with that spell. And in any case, you're not getting that option until 4th level.
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Just got the APG about ten minutes ago. I immediately turned to Summoner (those reading this thread may have read previous threads after the banquet announcement where I said that while I wasn't a fan of the change to the SLA, it was out of context and the class might have received unknown buffs, so we should all wait for the final APG before making any criticisms).
So Summoner lovers, here are the changes I found, and my assessment:
In addition to what Ricky Bobby said above, there's a substantial nerf for any campaign where the enemies can recognise a Summoner/Eidolon pair for what they are that is hidden in the wall of text--
If the summoner is unconscious,
asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.
Notwithstanding the fact that this means you can drop the Summoner and kill two birds with one stone, unlike if you drop a Conjurer who has already summoned her fill of creatures, this means you can't have an Eidolon watch or patrol while the summoner sleeps, and you can't have a Summoner/Eidolon loner tagteam in a character's backstory. For instance--
My Council of Thieves Summoner, at a young age, accidentally summoned her Eidolon by imagining it and didn't realise that she was a Summoner. In her backstory, it stayed around for years and, since it never got 'killed', she never needed to summon it again.
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With the additional nerf out of the way, they also received more than just Haste in terms of reverting their spells. Pretty much all early-access spells are reverted as per the original beta (so Black Tentacles and Dimension Door are 3rd again now, for instance) so that Summoners get the spells at the same levels as everyone else. In fact, they get the Mass spells even faster than anyone else, which is rather bizarre because the style of summoning emphasised by the final version of the summoner emphasises summoning one big thing (the Eidolon) so they aren't very good at massing out hordes of creatures to buff with mass spells. I guess they can choose Summon Monster again now as a spell known now that they get to have useful summons for their level.
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Any other changes? I don't see much. Surprisingly, although the number of natural attacks allowed was toned down again very slightly, they still put no limit to manufactured attacks that I have seen on my readthrough, which means you can still cheese out an Eidolon with 12 arms and swords in each.
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My Assessment--The new Summoner did get back some spellcasting capacity, but there is nothing like the major buff in other aspects that I was expecting to compensate for the loss of SLAs while the Eidolon is out. While the Eidolon can be summoned an unlimited number of times per day, it still takes a minute, so it's not like you'll be switching back and forth within the same battle.
In fact, having played a Summoner from levels 1 to 7, I found only one instance where I needed to call my Eidolon to my location more than once a day, and in that case, it was already summoned anyway and I needed it *fast*, so I used Maker's Call. This was playing CoT, a Paizo AP, so I think it's a realistic assessment of the sort of circumstances one might encounter on an adventure (in fact, CoT is more confining for my Eidolon than, say, Rise of the Runelords).
The only reason you would really get much use from the unlimited use summoning of the Eidolon, other than the new limitations from the final version (Eidolon unsummoned whenever unconscious, can't keep the Eidolon out with the SLA) is if you were fighting at least two encounters in the same day that successfully banish your Eidolon with Dismissal or Banishment followed by another encounter where you need the Eidolon.
So what will I be doing? I think it's safe to houserule back in the SLA existing at the same time as the Eidolon (make it cost a feat if you want), while paying careful attention to disallow any abilities in future supplements that seem to buff the summoner too much given that she has already received this houserule. I have a Summoner player in my RotRL game, and this should make him happy. If my CoT concurs, that will make me happy as well. Also, if I can think of good flavour for it (perhaps a disruption of the lifelink?) I think I'll rule that Eidolons can stay while you're asleep but not unconscious, preserving the combat nerf while allowing the flavour of a long-term Eidolon.
If the summoner is unconscious,
asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.
<facepalm>
.......<facepalm some more>
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I don't yet have the book but I do have my own idea for house rules on the matter.
For the Unconscious and asleep part. Nixing that entirely personally.
As to the SLA things and such, I will probably make it so the summoner automatically knows Summon Eidolon as a spell when he gets the first opportunity to learn it (don't know what spell level it is) as well making it so the minute long ritual fully heals the Eidolon (but only if he wasn't knocked to neg con in the last 24 hours) but it can be cut down to a 1 round casting time to just bring it back out. This makes it so they can effectively switch between the SLA and the Eidolon or if they really need to do so they can cast the summon eidolon spell to have both out at a time. I'm going to keep the entire SLA can only have 1 use active (this makes it so you can still get some use out of the spells known version of summon monster if they feel the need to amass a giant army).
In addition, in the same vein as the oracle's learn all cure spells business, I'm probably going to let the summoner have all the heal eidolon spells if they don't already just get them.
*sigh*
I can see I'm going to have to write my own version of this class. It really has been nerfed into the dust, then stomped on, and then someone tinkled on it's grave. :(
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If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.
:o
Yeah, I'm ok with the rest but this bit is being houseruled out. Bummer, I can't houserule it out in the PFS games I run. Put the summoner out for one round and it takes a full minute to resummon.
With the additional nerf out of the way, they also received more than just Haste in terms of reverting their spells. Pretty much all early-access spells are reverted as per the original beta (so Black Tentacles and Dimension Door are 3rd again now, for instance) so that Summoners get the spells at the same levels as everyone else.
This is really good. I wonder if they just blew off any wand/ item issues or what.
At the chance of upsetting folks, I do not see the big deal. Many of theses changes were called for and asked for on some level. And for balance reasons if nothing else they needed done.
At the chance of upsetting folks, I do not see the big deal. Many of theses changes were called for and asked for on some level. And for balance reasons if nothing else they needed done.
As a player of a Summoner...I actually agree. Sure, it sucks in some ways, but I'm actually glad that it makes it harder to be a solo player, given some of the players I've had before. If I want a guard all the time...well, that's what Diplomacy, Use Magic Device and Planar Binding are for.
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If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.:o
Yeah, I'm ok with the rest but this bit is being houseruled out. Bummer, I can't houserule it out in the PFS games I run. Put the summoner out for one round and it takes a full minute to resummon.
Or just use the summon eidlon spell which takes 1 round to cast, has the eidlon remain for 1min/lvl, allows you to use your summon monster class ability at the same time and allows your Eidlon to take advantage of the Augment summons feat.
I can see the Eidolon poofing when the Summoner dies, but unconscious/asleep is a little much. One failed save against a sleep effect and POOF! Gone for the combat...
At the chance of upsetting folks, I do not see the big deal. Many of theses changes were called for and asked for on some level. And for balance reasons if nothing else they needed done.
I have to agree. The people I play with will actually allow it now. As will I, as a playable class.
Director of Game Design
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Yeah.. I knew this thread would appear the moment folks got a look at the changes.
There was some harsh medicine that this class needed to swallow. We went way too far in some areas and really created a monster that was completely dominating tables and game sessions. It was just way too easy to create a broken eidolon and there were few weaknesses to the build. What you are seeing now is the response to those concerns. You might think we went to far, but give it a shot. Most of the terrible limitations are not nearly as bad as you might think they are.
In other words.. as with all things.. give it a shot before you start changing it. If it still doesn't work, by all means, fix it for your game. We know that everyones game is different and what works for one does not work for all.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
The amusing thing is that you didn't fix the broken parts (multi-weapon Eidolons still break the attack cap) and did fix parts that weren't broken (the sleep banishing Eidolons thing -- so much for a permanent companion).
Yeah.. I knew this thread would appear the moment folks got a look at the changes.
There was some harsh medicine that this class needed to swallow. We went way too far in some areas and really created a monster that was completely dominating tables and game sessions. It was just way too easy to create a broken eidolon and there were few weaknesses to the build. What you are seeing now is the response to those concerns. You might think we went to far, but give it a shot. Most of the terrible limitations are not nearly as bad as you might think they are.
In other words.. as with all things.. give it a shot before you start changing it. If it still doesn't work, by all means, fix it for your game. We know that everyones game is different and what works for one does not work for all.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Honestly, I like the changes. I can play one in campaigns now.
Also. Another class that loses alot when its asleep?
Any class without alarm, contingency, or a familar/companion.
Say like.. Fighter. Guess what he/she loses while asleep.
Fighting. O.o Honestly. To be perfectly harsh, sounds like some min/maxers should just suck it up. The class is still amazingly playable. And the only thing I have to complain about regarding the APG is that I DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO PLAY NOW!!!!
Also. Another class that loses alot when its asleep?
Any class without alarm, contingency, or a familar/companion.
Fighters can wake up and immediately use 100% of their class features.
Barbarians can stand up and immediately use 100% of their class features.Clerics can stand up and immediately use 100% of their class features.
Etc.
Summoners? They have to spend 10 rounds summoning their reason to exist.
Pointless change. It's a massive flexibility nerf because now Summoners have to either use one of their precious few spells known on summon eidolon (which is an otherwise extremely weak spell) or save their summon monster SLAs for when they rest at night or get put to sleep or knocked to -1 or lower hp (which will happen a lot since they literally have a giant neon sign on their forehead). No longer can they actually viably use their utility summons for utility purposes; now they have to be reserved for emergency Eidolon replacement.
See my above post
Summoners? They have to spend 10 rounds summoning their reason to exist.
So now we have a spell tax, a spell we have to take in order to function properly, just so that we can overcome a nerf that had absolutely zero reason to happen. What problem is solved by making Eidolons disappear when their summoners sleep? This is an even bigger problem if summon eidolon isn't a 1st level spell (I can't find it in the spoiler thread to confirm).
Or of course Ignoring that you could just use The Summon monster class ability so summon a creature as a standard action.
I covered both of these things in the post you quote. If we refuse to pay the spell tax, now we have to reserve all or almost all of our summon monster SLAs to cover our asses. Either way, it seriously nerfs the versatility of the class, without making one iota of change in the power of the class.
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This also pretty much invalidates the 14th level Life Bond ability that allows the Eidolon to keep its Summoner from dying from hit point loss.
Yeah.. I knew this thread would appear the moment folks got a look at the changes.
There was some harsh medicine that this class needed to swallow. We went way too far in some areas and really created a monster that was completely dominating tables and game sessions. It was just way too easy to create a broken eidolon and there were few weaknesses to the build. What you are seeing now is the response to those concerns. You might think we went to far, but give it a shot. Most of the terrible limitations are not nearly as bad as you might think they are.
In other words.. as with all things.. give it a shot before you start changing it. If it still doesn't work, by all means, fix it for your game. We know that everyones game is different and what works for one does not work for all.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Hey Jason,
It's definitely true that the class needed some major nerfs from the original version, and the design team really came through for the most part in eliminating the most abusive elements. I wouldn't have minded seeing some more nerfs to Eidolons, particularly limitations on using manufactured weapons to make loads of attacks per round.
I'm planning to keep the fact that Eidolon is banished when the Summoner is KOed because I tend to agree that things that limit the Eidolon in combat are good things.
The access to Summon Monster spells at level-appropriate levels does help with the loss of the SLAs, which is a good thing because this is a mighty blow. I wish a little more limitation had been put on the Eidolon in order to keep the SLAs--that might be an idea for a substitution variant of Summoner if and when those ever appear. I can see how having all of those creatures out at once could eat up time if the player is uncoordinated, which is one reason why having a feat or optional substitution or something might be the way to go (one first step is banning the Summoner who keeps both SLA and Eidolon up at once from using Summon Eidolon, which I plan on doing)
Honestly the removal of the SLA at the same time as the Eidolon is out is a bit unsettling for me less as a power issue for the Summoner and more as a style/flavour issue with the utility of the ability. It's not that big of a combat nerf, since many of the most powerful combat-based tactics with the SLAs can be duplicated with Summon Eidolon (for bringing everyone in to fight at once) or by just using the SLA out of combat and then swapping back in the Eidolon before battle starts (for things like putting Aid on the whole party with Lantern Archons).
However, combat notwithstanding, a big part of roleplaying the Summoner to me was having a bunch of creatures that I might summon, but I fear that choosing between Eidolon and SLA means that the Summoner will be choosing the Eidolon the vast majority of the time, and this cuts out the general variety brought by other creatures. Perhaps we have an unusual group, but we have players who like to roleplay repartee with the summoned creatures, and the GM and I have worked to chronicle personalities and names/nicknames for the SLA summoned creatures. Another factor for me is that these changes make the Eidolon feel less like a lifelong companion and friend and more like a really buffed summon spell (perhaps the intention, but I like having both options open).
Another thing that's certainly a big factor in the class's balance is that the Eidolon's stats are always the same, whereas different groups have different stat gen techniques for the characters themselves. So for instance, a combat brute eidolon looks a lot more intimidating if everyone plays 15 point buy than if players roll stats and thus get around 20 on average (or just play 20 point buy like PFS). Our group admittedly does the latter, and the Eidolon's hit points were significantly below that of the group's Sorcerer until it became Large.
Anyway, the APG is amazing, and you outdid yourself with some damn fine work! I only scrutinise the Summoner (and the other new classes, though I agree with the decisions made there almost universally--kudos especially on the Alchemist, which start to finish is a masterpiece in using playtest data to make the class at least 20x more awesome!) because the amazing and unparalleled way that Paizo reached out to all of us in the community to help playtest made me start thinking of these guys as a little bit of my own, and I want to see them flourish and inspire people's imaginations. I am happy to see that this final version of the Summoner will only require these smallest of houserules to satisfy members of my group, and I think you've actually probably hit the best version possible to release in the APG--after all, it's extremely easy as a GM to tell the players that they're getting extra goodies, but it's much harder to tell them that you're weakening them.
So Jason and Paizo, thanks for putting out such high quality product time and again!
~RE
In regards to the summoner losing his Eidolon when s/he is unconscious, could it be more of a thematic thing than anything? Isn't the eidolon just a manifestation of their subconsious? If that is the case, than it would make perfect sense for it to disappear when s/he is unconsious.
Otherwise, unless your DM is majorly AR I'm sure they will allow you to go against this change if you whine hard enough.
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In regards to the summoner losing his Eidolon when s/he is unconscious, could it be more of a thematic thing than anything? Isn't the eidolon just a manifestation of their subconsious? If that is the case, than it would make perfect sense for it to disappear when s/he is unconsious.
Otherwise, unless your DM is majorly AR I'm sure they will allow you to go against this change if you whine hard enough.
But isn't your subconsiousness most active when you're alseep? It makes all those funky dreams after all...
Think of it more as his will is keeping it here. So going nappy nap kinda brakes that
Isn't the eidolon just a manifestation of their subconsious?
No, it's an aspect of an extraplanar entity (thus why it's an outsider).
Isn't the eidolon just a manifestation of their subconsious?No, it's an aspect of an extraplanar entity (thus why it's an outsider).
I agree it is extraplanar, however how he keep it around is where this lays. Is it will? or some kind of contentious spell? As many spells{not all mind you] and spell like ability are broken or stop when ya get knocked out or go to sleep I do not think it is that odd.
I agree it is extraplanar, however how he keep it around is where this lays. Is it will? or some kind of contentious spell? As many spells{not all mind you] and spell like ability are broken or stop when ya get knocked out or go to sleep I do not think it is that odd.Isn't the eidolon just a manifestation of their subconsious?No, it's an aspect of an extraplanar entity (thus why it's an outsider).
Only spells or SLAs with a duration of Concentration (or Concentration + x rounds) vanish when you lose consciousness. It's extremely rare for a supernatural ability (which is what the Eidolon is) to vanish upon unconsciousness, except in the case of things like petrifying gazes where presumably the ability still functions, it's just that the critter isn't gazing at anything.
The stupidest thing about this is that if you cast summon eidolon and get your eidolon for a short duration and get knocked unconscious ... your eidolon sticks around. But if you use your minute-long ritual that makes your eidolon stick around permanently, sorry, if you get knocked unconscious, it vanishes. Totally opposite of expectations.
Wands of lesser restoration are now extremely important to Summoners, to remove the fatigue from not sleeping. Diehard is actually useful, too, to keep from falling unconscious at negative hit points.
"If the summoner is unconscious,
asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished."
I wish I could say I'm surprised by this stupid rule, but then I remember who designed the class in the first place. Excellent job ruining a potentially great class. Whelp, I guess I have to ditch my summoner character now. >.<
why would they not sleep? Eh sleep spend a min bringing him back, not a huge deal outside of combat at all.
why would they not sleep? Eh sleep spend a min bringing him back, not a huge deal outside of combat at all.
I've been attacked in camp way too many times to want to play a character who loses their primary class feature if attacked in camp.
why would they not sleep? Eh sleep spend a min bringing him back, not a huge deal outside of combat at all.
Power-wise, it only matters for night watches and ambushes. The sleep bit being offputting is more a flavour thing, at least for me, which may not mean anything for others (as you may have seen from my longish post above, I have a weird middle stance). It stops certain backstories (for instance, my character grew up in the slums of Westcrown, and the Eidolon watched her back while she slept).
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It was just way too easy to create a broken eidolon and there were few weaknesses to the build. What you are seeing now is the response to those concerns. You might think we went to far, but give it a shot. Most of the terrible limitations are not nearly as bad as you might think they are.
First off, thanks for the response Jason...again you guys amaze me at how often you respond to threads...truly great Customer Service.
But, I have to say this...too easy to create a broken Eidolon? Yes, it was at first, and now...well, honestly you still can, just like it's pretty easy to create a very broken fighter, cleric, paladin, and others. But the issues with this class that I have don't really center around the Eidolon....it's the summoner himself.
The nearly useless SLA without being able to re-summon your Eidolon in less than 10 rounds or use a 2nd level spell that I see few people taking is really my biggest (combined) issue. Why shouldn't we be able to spam the battlefield as well as a druid or wizard? We are called "Summoners" not "Eidolon Buffers", yes?
Honestly, I don't even think I would have started this thread if one simple thing had been changed along with any other changes: "A summoner can summon his Eidolon as a full-round action 3+CHA-mod times a day." This would have taken away the apparent battlefield spamming issue, as well as let us keep a useful, utility-based SLA.
In other words.. as with all things.. give it a shot before you start changing it. If it still doesn't work, by all means, fix it for your game.
Two things here.
First, I agree, I will be giving it a chance, mainly because I still like the class and will work with what I have, as well as I already have a 4th level PFS summoner that I am not going to lose because of a change or two that I dislike.
Secondly, "fix it for your game"; this is fine in home games, but I'm betting a good chunk of your fanbase plays PFS too, yes? And in PFS, obviously, we can't just fix it, so this point does become moot for those of us in PFS. Sure, for my home games, I will probably alter things, but in PFS, nada. And yes, I understand you have to attempt to design for everything, but just throwing the point out there.
Again, I'm really not trying to be overly negative or trolling or anything...I'm just really trying to give some honest feedback and keep (what has so far been good) discussion going.
Thanks!
I think for all of you who are saying"time to scrap the summoner for losing his eidalon while sleeping" should instead say "Time to house rule the summoner so he doesn't lose his eidalon while sleeping." I mean, this is an RPG after all, there is no reason as to why you can't.
I think for all of you who are saying"time to scrap the summoner for losing his eidalon while sleeping" should instead say "Time to house rule the summoner so he doesn't lose his eidalon while sleeping." I mean, this is an RPG after all, there is no reason as to why you can't.
Oh, I'm not planning on scrapping my Summoner, and I don't play in Society games, so house rules are fine. I just truly do not see the mechanical reason behind some of the changes.
I think for all of you who are saying"time to scrap the summoner for losing his eidalon while sleeping" should instead say "Time to house rule the summoner so he doesn't lose his eidalon while sleeping." I mean, this is an RPG after all, there is no reason as to why you can't.
"Sayer of Nay" is an alt and from the name, sounds like it is meant as a joke to lampoon the side it seems to represent. I think most of us who don't like the change will just houserule, so in the end, everyone wins!
why would they not sleep? Eh sleep spend a min bringing him back, not a huge deal outside of combat at all.Power-wise, it only matters for night watches and ambushes. The sleep bit being offputting is more a flavour thing, at least for me, which may not mean anything for others (as you may have seen from my longish post above, I have a weird middle stance). It stops certain backstories (for instance, my character grew up in the slums of Westcrown, and the Eidolon watched her back while she slept).
I am still not seeing an issue. Although I do think a feat might be nice for this. Sure it's be a feat tax but it's not like kills the the summoner not to have a 24/7 bodyguard. You have way more to fall back on then most arcane classes. And a 24/7 body guard is worth a feat
Make it a feat,and allow it to stay active while you sleep and make say a will save or fort save to stay active if ya get knocked out.
That makes elf and half-elf good summoner because, you know, they are immune to magic sleep effects.
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At the chance of upsetting folks, I do not see the big deal. Many of theses changes were called for and asked for on some level. And for balance reasons if nothing else they needed done.
I'm kind of with you on this. My group's summoner dominated early combats by exploiting the faster summons, so he could attack with his eidolon, a summoned creature, and then a second summoned creature he brings in after the first attacks(and is dismissed by the new summon). Even he agreed with the one-at-a-time nerf.
Something else that has not been nerfed and remains the most powerful aspect of the eidolon IMO--it can't die. End of story. It fights until it's dead and then comes back the next day. Sure, all summoned animals can do that, but none of them are remotely close to the eidolon in power and versatility. The summoner can die, sure, but he has a personal bodyguard to whom death is a minor inconvenience.
I haven't seen the final version myself but most of these changes sound pretty reasonable to me. Just an opinion.
Something else that has not been nerfed and remains the most powerful aspect of the eidolon IMO--it can't die. End of story. It fights until it's dead and then comes back the next day. Sure, all summoned animals can do that, but none of them are remotely close to the eidolon in power and versatility. The summoner can die, sure, but he has a personal bodyguard to whom death is a minor inconvenience.
This is equally true of animal companions. Both take 24 hours.
This is equally true of animal companions. Both take 24 hours.
Not really as your at the mercy of the environment and area and GM in what he allows you. It's close but not the same thing. And the Eidolon is stronger then the animal companions and you have total control over what you get, every time.