Question about Pathfinder's retail success


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Shadow Lodge

Don't know if this is the right place to ask this question but here it goes.

A friend and I were having a discussion about relative success of Pathfinder vs 4e from a retail standpoint. All we had to go on unfortunately were disputed evidence from our game shops and the circles which we run in.

My google searches were also having little luck finding much information. So does anyone know any blogs that have some good information?

All the Best,

Kerney

Silver Crusade

Don't know if this helps there first printing of the core book was sold out. Befor it even got released. I'm not 100% sure if there on the second or thrid printing right now.


The Pathfinder core book is on it's third printing and the Bestiary is on it's second printing. IMHO that is not just good, but AWESOME!!!

Grand Lodge

The two companies in question, WOTC and Paizo, aren't going to publicly share their sales figures. It's just not something companies do. The best bet for discovering the information is through distribution companies, which are NOT going to release that kind of information as they do not want to offend the publishers.

What CAN be figured out is that both games have been doing very well with their own target audiences. This goes to show that the hobby CAN support more than one major game.

In the hey day of RPGs, the 80s, there were scores of popular games, all kinds of genres explored and even combined. Then the RPG market imploded and many of those fantastic games disappeared.

In this much smaller market of today, it is encouraging that both Pathfinder and D&D are doing very well. I hope both continue to prosper, and perhaps, just maybe, a new renaissance in RPGs is just around the corner.

Sovereign Court

I'm pretty sure you could pay for the information on company warehouse or something like that- They have to provide that kind of information.


Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:
I'm pretty sure you could pay for the information on company warehouse or something like that- They have to provide that kind of information.

Companies don't have to provide any information at all unless they're publically held. Even then, they are not required to give out information at the level of granularity you seem to be suggesting.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

During one of the seminars at this year's PaizoCon, Eric Mona quoted a trade magazine's assessment of the Pathfinder brand. To paraphrase the trade magazine, Pathfinder is solidly in second place in the overall tabletop RPG market (behind 4e), and is a serious contender for first place in some (unmentioned) markets.

I don't remember the name of the trade magazine that made this assessment off the top of my head, but if you track down the right video from PaizoCon, the quoted trade magazine is mentioned by name.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My guts (trolls can augur from intensines, and so can I) tell me that Pathfinder is somewhere between 4e and Warhammer/WoD, globally.

Paizo Employee CEO

Epic Meepo wrote:
I don't remember the name of the trade magazine that made this assessment off the top of my head, but if you track down the right video from PaizoCon, the quoted trade magazine is mentioned by name.

iCV2 is the trade publication.

-Lisa


They have em listed at number 2 on the website

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Just a bit of pointless information. :)

Locally there is a single chain of stores that dominate the market locally. The owner of the chain of stores recently said that locally Pathfinder is their best selling products, almost selling as much as all the other RPG stuff combined.

Now with that said that is only locally and his chain, which is 4 or 5 stores in the metro area.


I like Paizo. I like the way they conduct themselves, I like the level of communication they have with their base, I like their ancillary products like planet stories, and their core products (APs, PFRPG) are absolutely second to none.

That said, having two monoliths as opposed to one doesn't particularly serve the gaming community at large in many respects. There is a lot of great stuff out there, but a lot of it is tiny and doesn't make money or barely sustains its niche, and eventually evaporates. I think we as gamers, as discerning consumers, owe it to ourselves and to the industry to diversify.

I'm GONNA get the APG and so, I suspect, are nearly everyone here. There's so much awesome, so many tiny, creative games out there and available on the Paizo store!

And stuff.

/soapbox

Dark Archive

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
They have em listed at number 2 on the website

According to ICV2, Pathfinder has been number 2 since it came out. And that does not include PDF sales; however, since WFRP and 4E cannot be bought as legal PDFs I think the retail sales are even more telling. And I've been monitoring Amazon sales at a pretty regular basis -- every time the Core Rulebook has been in top 10 (or top 20 at worst), even outselling 4E products occasionally.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Most information from individual FLGS is incidental, but the most telling conversation I had recently with my FLGS's owner went like this:

Me: So what is doing better, 4E of PFRPG
Her: So you remember five years back I used to keep all the RPG stuff right up here by the front desk?
Me: Yes?
Her: That was because this stuff was so popular that 'you guyz' were stealing it. Now, its down their because it doesn't get stolen, and rarely gets sold. 4E and PFRPG.

From that point we moved into the real issue that is obscuring the numbers and that is Online vs Retail. For most of these stores their too boutique to offer more then 10% off without seriously undercutting their ability to remain in business, whereas places like Amazon routinely sell just about any book for 30-40% off. Since I imagine that ICV2 number is based on either polling the companies directly basically "you tell me what your doing and I will tell you how everyone else is doing" or by collecting that info from distributors, it probably does a much better job.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Asgetrion wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
They have em listed at number 2 on the website
According to ICV2, Pathfinder has been number 2 since it came out. And that does not include PDF sales; however, since WFRP and 4E cannot be bought as legal PDFs I think the retail sales are even more telling. And I've been monitoring Amazon sales at a pretty regular basis -- every time the Core Rulebook has been in top 10 (or top 20 at worst), even outselling 4E products occasionally.

I imagine, and I could be wrong, but because of the strong community here we tend to all snap up the book shortly after production, and so we get that instantaneous sales boost that makes it go to the top. I imagine individual 4e release do the same, spiking after release and falling off. (Actually I imagine any sort of book sales tends to trend like that.)

Sovereign Court

Purely anecdotal, but at one of the FLGS here in Birmingham (Alabama, not England), the store owner indicated that he sold virtually none of the 4e stuff and couldn't get enough of the PFRPG product to keep up with demand.

As above, this is anecdotal and not at all scientific.


It is great to see Paizo doing so well with Pathfinder. I don’t say this next part in a way to hope WoTC do poorly, but I would like to see Pathfinder eventually take the number one spot over 4ed, just to hopefully send a message to Wizards that the drastic changes they made in 4th was maybe not such a good idea and they can think about that long and hard for when 5th edition is released.

Although, I will say, even if WoTC does make the changes to more of our liking for 5th (I know, a long ways in the future), as long as Paizo continues with the same quality for Pathfinder that they have been doing, I certainly don’t see myself abandoning it in any shape or form. :)


Competition is great for us gamers. I hope both WotC as well as Paizo will have to fight for the top spot in the future, and that they have to pass around the crown from month to month.

Liberty's Edge

Well, they seem to be doing well enough. It seems like they're putting out a new product every week, so the demand for product must be there. Not bad considering the huge gamble starting their own RPG line represented.

Competition is healthy for companies and I think it's great that we are getting such high-quality material from the industy. It didn't always used to be like this.

Imagine how this thread would have differed had WotC been more forthcoming with their Third Party Licence information back in the day...

Liberty's Edge

I just want Paizo to sell so many books and products that they have to hire a SQL Monkey (preferably a Celestial SQL monkey like myself), so that I can quit my current job, move to Seattle, and work for what is obviously the greatest company on Earth. That's my dream. Will it ever happen? Probably not, but I'd love nothing more than to work for Vic and get in office games. That would be boiled-down heaven on a shingle.


I don’t know what it is with the state of Washington in regards to game companies, but Nintendo, WotC and at least Paizo have headquarters there. Lucky for the gamers who live there.

Dark Archive

Hobbun wrote:
I don’t know what it is with the state of Washington in regards to game companies, but Nintendo, WotC and at least Paizo have headquarters there. Lucky for the gamers who live there.

Its the rain, it forces everyone inside to where there is nothing better to do than to play video games and RPG.

spoiler:
It actually doesn't rain everyday just every other day

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Again, anecdotal, but my preferred local BAM sees a constant turn-over in the PF material they carry.

Joachim - B-ham, eh? I'm up in Huntsville. Nice the see another Alabamian (granted I'm not native, but I've been here ~15 years).

-Mark
Vote Mark Green for 2011 ENnies Judge


Jeremiziah wrote:
I just want Paizo to sell so many books and products that they have to hire a SQL Monkey (preferably a Celestial SQL monkey like myself), so that I can quit my current job, move to Seattle, and work for what is obviously the greatest company on Earth. That's my dream. Will it ever happen? Probably not, but I'd love nothing more than to work for Vic and get in office games. That would be boiled-down heaven on a shingle.

The heaven paste sounds tasty, sure, but I'll pass on the shingle.


Of the two FLGSes with which I am familiar in Metro Phoenix, one (much more professional) seems to be about even (this from the owner), while the other gives 4E an edge (this from a rank-and-file employee).


Krome wrote:


What CAN be figured out is that both games have been doing very well with their own target audiences. This goes to show that the hobby CAN support more than one major game.

I don't think that's shown all that well. You are comparing an RPG (Pathfinder) with a miniatures strategy game (4e). I'd consider them to be different hobbies.

And, no, I'm not saying that miniatures strategy games are worse than RPGs. I enjoy many miniatures strategy games.


I would like to see pathfinder and 4E both succeed and each to learn from each other the strengths and weaknesses of their own business lines to continously improve. The products are distinct enough to co-exist. Whether I like 4E and you like pathfinder are personal decisions that should not need to be validated by numbers. But as an additional comment, that I have made on similar posts, is you need to include the subscriber base for 4E online content via DDI into any sales figures or lack thereof. I prefer an electronic format along with a set of tools, as I see this as setting the pace for the future. I also realize people like paper, so once again we can co-exist.

Cheers!


Sharoth wrote:
The Pathfinder core book is on it's third printing and the Bestiary is on it's second printing.

[devil's advocate]

Yes, it does sound very good, but of course it's largely meaningeless without the context of the size of those print runs.

If the Apple RPG has print runs of 20,000 copies and goes to a third printing within a year, while the Orange RPG has an initial print run of 150,000 copies and hasn't yet gone to a second printing, which one is doing better? You don't know without the actual sales figures.
[/advocate]

I'm not sure why the OP wants to compare anyway. There's a big enough market for players of both Apple and Orange, and no real danger of either putting the other out of business even were that a corporate goal.


Damon Griffin wrote:
Sharoth wrote:
The Pathfinder core book is on it's third printing and the Bestiary is on it's second printing.
I'm not sure why the OP wants to compare anyway. There's a big enough market for players of both Apple and Orange, and no real danger of either putting the other out of business even were that a corporate goal.

Maybe the OP is deathly allergic to oranges and would like to see more apple based choices on menus.

What were we talking about again?

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Dot, da, dot, dot.

Dark Archive

Malaclypse wrote:


Competition is great for us gamers. I hope both WotC as well as Paizo will have to fight for the top spot in the future, and that they have to pass around the crown from month to month.

+1


LilithsThrall wrote:
<SNIP>I don't think that's shown all that well. You are comparing an RPG (Pathfinder) with a miniatures strategy game (4e). I'd consider them to be different hobbies. </SNIP>

Reporting as ordered!


Damon Griffin wrote:


I'm not sure why the OP wants to compare anyway. There's a big enough market for players of both Apple and Orange, and no real danger of either putting the other out of business even were that a corporate goal.

I think it has a lot to do with letting WotC know that they have lost a portion of their sales base. If their product is losing in sales to, basically, an old product of theirs they don't have IP rights over, it makes them realize they made a mistake. A lot of people felt left in the lurch by the changeover to 4e and betrayed by a company they patronized. It's always know the team you're rooting for is winning.

To us an analogy, it's like we were all playing in a casino and they told us our chips are no good and to get out, where across the street another casino is honoring our chips and giving us pie.

Former VP of Finance

bigkilla wrote:
Hobbun wrote:
I don’t know what it is with the state of Washington in regards to game companies, but Nintendo, WotC and at least Paizo have headquarters there. Lucky for the gamers who live there.

Its the rain, it forces everyone inside to where there is nothing better to do than to play video games and RPG.

** spoiler omitted **

Actually, we just kind of ignore the rain, unless it's particularly heavy.

While it does drizzle most (non-summer) days, it *rains* only very rarely.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Sgt. Ed Itionwarrior wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
<SNIP>I don't think that's shown all that well. You are comparing an RPG (Pathfinder) with a miniatures strategy game (4e). I'd consider them to be different hobbies. </SNIP>
Reporting as ordered!

Where's Obvious Troll is Obvious when you need him?

Dark Archive

Chris Self wrote:
bigkilla wrote:
Hobbun wrote:
I don’t know what it is with the state of Washington in regards to game companies, but Nintendo, WotC and at least Paizo have headquarters there. Lucky for the gamers who live there.

Its the rain, it forces everyone inside to where there is nothing better to do than to play video games and RPG.

** spoiler omitted **

Actually, we just kind of ignore the rain, unless it's particularly heavy.

While it does drizzle most (non-summer) days, it *rains* only very rarely.

Yeah, I was born and raised on Whidbey Island,Oak Harbor Washington and have lived here for 37 years. And while we get sizable amounts of rainfall its not the rainy wet state everyone thinks it is. New York I believe has a higher annual rainfall than Washington/Seattle. But as for the rain, thats why we are The Evergreen State.


I think that every store you go to will have a different take on the matter. One thing I have noticed about gaming communities is that they all convert together. Someone comes out with an awesome idea, like switching to Pathfinder, and then either people copy it or toss it to the side. Some stores will be seeing almost complete conversion to pathfinder, while others see no one picking it up. The stores in turn propogate what they are selling by making it more prominent in their store. I know in the one I frequent, Pathfinder and Gamemastery has been slowly gaining shelf space while 4e has been staying about the same. I know in my college community no one has touched it despite my advocating it, and in my home community everyone I know has switched.

Each community has key people. Usually these are the good GMs. What they decide to run catches and grows. Each community will grow different, because each one has different preferences.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Caineach wrote:

I think that every store you go to will have a different take on the matter. One thing I have noticed about gaming communities is that they all convert together. Someone comes out with an awesome idea, like switching to Pathfinder, and then either people copy it or toss it to the side. Some stores will be seeing almost complete conversion to pathfinder, while others see no one picking it up. The stores in turn propogate what they are selling by making it more prominent in their store. I know in the one I frequent, Pathfinder and Gamemastery has been slowly gaining shelf space while 4e has been staying about the same. I know in my college community no one has touched it despite my advocating it, and in my home community everyone I know has switched.

Each community has key people. Usually these are the good GMs. What they decide to run catches and grows. Each community will grow different, because each one has different preferences.

This.

There also seems to be a pretty quick boom/bust cycle for most games. My understanding (based largely on anecdotal comments and stuff I made up) is that, for example, Exalted was really big for a few years, but has fallen on hard times. I remember in the mid 90s, Deadlands had a similar meteoric rise and crashed back to earth. RPGs seem pretty cyclical, so even if, at the moment, PF is doing better than 4e (or vice versa), that's not necessarily indicative of long term success/entrenchment.

For what it's worth (disclaimer: not much), the anecdotal evidence I've heard is that 4e has been slowing while PF has been swelling in recent months. However, that data, in addition to being unreliable because of the sources, is also based upon how game/book stores are selling. I have no idea how well DDI is doing or how well the various games are performing through online venues.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I have the weird luck of having 3 stores in the area and they're a spread of 1 Pathfinder, 1 4e, and 1 mixed. That said finding organized play for Pathfinder is harder in my area, but informal play is skewed toward Pathfinder.

The only other thing is one store has more Pathfinder on it's shelves because they sell faster than the 4E stuff. One has limited their purchases of 4E becuase of WoTC's over reliance on hardbound (ie more expensive) print choices.

Personally, I like 4E in theory but WOTC is killing my pocketbook and I don't need everyting in print form. (Though I dearly enjoy it more.) Pathfinder is my happy middle ground. But that's personally.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Xuttah wrote:

Well, they seem to be doing well enough. It seems like they're putting out a new product every week, so the demand for product must be there. Not bad considering the huge gamble starting their own RPG line represented.

Competition is healthy for companies and I think it's great that we are getting such high-quality material from the industy. It didn't always used to be like this.

Imagine how this thread would have differed had WotC been more forthcoming with their Third Party Licence information back in the day...

Just to add a bit more to what I said. While the chain is not the only stores in the area they are most of the. There is like 2 others. Plus book stores, though the book stores went from having 2 full sections of gaming stuff to now have half a rack, with a couple having a full rack.

Back to the chain, the Fantasy Shops for those curious. Another bit of information, this according to the owner and workers. While Paizo out sells everything else, most of the 4e fans are subscribers to the DDI. So that's like a extra hard back book sold every other month are so.


meatrace wrote:

I think it has a lot to do with letting WotC know that they have lost a portion of their sales base.

I think they know that just fine. That's why they make 4E Essentials.

meatrace wrote:


If their product is losing in sales to, basically, an old product of theirs they don't have IP rights over, it makes them realize they made a mistake.

I really don't think you want them to learn that. From a manager's view, it would look like the Open Game License was a bad mistake, never to be repeated. That's not what we (gamers) want, it's not what's in our best interest.

And about sales numbers in general... the market for RPGs has been better. First of all, collectible card games, german-style board games and especially video games and MMORPGs are strong competitors. Secondly, unlike video games, old RPGs don't really age, and with the internet and the almost infinite availability of anything that printed in PDF form (legal or not), each new system has to compete against it's direct and indirect predecessors. And finally, at least where I live, RPGs have become a niche product to a much larger extent. 10 years ago, you could find some RPG products in any bookstore and large department stores. Now, you need to go to a specialist game shop... (or the internet, which is good for existing players but doesn't grow the market).

One thing that I hope paizo will learn is that they don't go far enough with their online offerings. Every single printed book they sell should contain an offer (probably a code/serial number) for a free pdf of the same material, not only for subscribers as it is now. Because anyone who wants to get a 'free' pdf will find it on the internet anyway, legal or not, but by offering it from within the book, they achieve multiple goals:
- more people will visit paizo.com (and a % of those will buy stuff here, and others will learn about new RPG products they might not have otherwise)
- your FLGS is empowered, which is good because mortar and brick stores will find new players for you
- they cannot compete with DDI, so they need an alternative

Ok, I digressed from the actual topic...but now the wall of text is here, so ... too late ;)

Liberty's Edge

Sebastian wrote:


My understanding (based largely on anecdotal comments and stuff I made up) is that ...

Perhaps the funniest thing I've read all day!

Thanks for that!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Malaclypse wrote:

Every single printed book they sell should contain an offer (probably a code/serial number) for a free pdf of the same material, not only for subscribers as it is now. Because anyone who wants to get a 'free' pdf will find it on the internet anyway, legal or not, but by offering it from within the book, they achieve multiple goals:

I can totally see that one:

Customer "Cosmo ? The free pdf code on the back of my book doesn't work"
Cosmo "Well, it looks like it was redeemed 3 weeks ago."
Customer "WTF ? I bought it today !"
Cosmo "Sorry, either the store manager or some random customer used it. No, we can't send you a new one. Maybe some Bella Sara cards instead ?

Sovereign Court Contributor

Sebastian wrote:
Caineach wrote:

I think that every store you go to will have a different take on the matter. One thing I have noticed about gaming communities is that they all convert together. Someone comes out with an awesome idea, like switching to Pathfinder, and then either people copy it or toss it to the side. Some stores will be seeing almost complete conversion to pathfinder, while others see no one picking it up. The stores in turn propogate what they are selling by making it more prominent in their store. I know in the one I frequent, Pathfinder and Gamemastery has been slowly gaining shelf space while 4e has been staying about the same. I know in my college community no one has touched it despite my advocating it, and in my home community everyone I know has switched.

Each community has key people. Usually these are the good GMs. What they decide to run catches and grows. Each community will grow different, because each one has different preferences.

This.

There also seems to be a pretty quick boom/bust cycle for most games. My understanding (based largely on anecdotal comments and stuff I made up) is that, for example, Exalted was really big for a few years, but has fallen on hard times. I remember in the mid 90s, Deadlands had a similar meteoric rise and crashed back to earth. RPGs seem pretty cyclical, so even if, at the moment, PF is doing better than 4e (or vice versa), that's not necessarily indicative of long term success/entrenchment.

For what it's worth (disclaimer: not much), the anecdotal evidence I've heard is that 4e has been slowing while PF has been swelling in recent months. However, that data, in addition to being unreliable because of the sources, is also based upon how game/book stores are selling. I have no idea how well DDI is doing or how well the various games are performing through online venues.

We might consider using Google Trends Analysis as a proxy. It'll show us the comparative volume of searches on Google people make about 4e vs. PFRPG product. I'd guess (just a guess) that would tilt slightly toward the company with more online product. Not necessarily, though. Last time I looked it showed net interest in PFRPG as higher and PFRPG as the fastest growing in searches.

Of course we'd have to spot check this over time and plot a trend of trends for the datum to be even remotely useful. But if we check it, say every month for a year, we might be entitled to some guesses.

Just a thought of the "when you got no data, SWAG!" variety.


Malaclypse wrote:


One thing that I hope paizo will learn is that they don't go far enough with their online offerings. Every single printed book they sell should contain an offer (probably a code/serial number) for a free pdf of the same material, not only for subscribers as it is now. Because anyone who wants to get a 'free' pdf will find it on the internet anyway, legal or not, but by offering it from within the book, they achieve multiple goals:

As well as getting people used to using PDF game books. I mean, I love real books 10000% more than using PDFs, but I gotta admit they take up a lot less shelf space and sure are much cheaper. Dunno if they have a greater profit margin - that all depends on the pricing and inventory vs. web hosting fees.


Sgt. Ed Itionwarrior wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
<SNIP>I don't think that's shown all that well. You are comparing an RPG (Pathfinder) with a miniatures strategy game (4e). I'd consider them to be different hobbies. </SNIP>
Reporting as ordered!

It's not an edition war. Hell, I don't even know what "edition war" is in this case. Is it an edition war to point out that football and fantasy football are different kinds of games? No. Likewise, it's not edition warring to point out that 4e and Pathfinder are different kinds of games.

Some people are so afraid to point out the obvious that they'll bend over backwards in order to avoid doing so.
Let's call a spade a spade.


Malaclypse wrote:
meatrace wrote:


If their product is losing in sales to, basically, an old product of theirs they don't have IP rights over, it makes them realize they made a mistake.
I really don't think you want them to learn that. From a manager's view, it would look like the Open Game License was a bad mistake, never to be repeated. That's not what we (gamers) want, it's not what's in our best interest.

I don't think that at all, in face I would point to the lack of open source compatability with 4e as a large reason for its failure. And yes I do mean failure. When windows vista came out and most people chose to continue using XP microsoft saw this as a failure as did the rest of that community. What we have is much the same situation.

Also, I've yet to enter a chain bookstore and not see both D&D4 and Pathfinder products, though obviously much more of the 4e.

Furthermore, one thing I think that sets these two monoliths apart is their business and distribution model. While D&D does have digital distribution, it is strictly subscriber based, and it has strong physical distribution. Some stores I talk to, while carrying PF products, malign the inability to keep and maintain stock, the competition with PF's own online store (including digital) let alone amazon, and getting product not until well after its official release and everyone has already sought fulfillment through other avenues. The APG will be available at gen con IF you're at gen con. For me I won't likely get a copy until September.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

LilithsThrall wrote:


Let's call a spade a spade.

That's what he was doing...

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I do wonder what net benefit WoTC is going to get from Essentials? Are they going to sell it at Toy'R'Us like the old Red Box back in the day? What about alienating the ever shrinking number of hobby retailers? As it stand Pathfinder books eat up a lot less shelf space but still sell really well because of the Adventure Path material being on a steady curn.

It almost feels like another 3.5 is going to happen, and I'm not so sure how it's going to go down.

Well, either way I'm going to follow the rule of K.I.S.S. with my game buying. One edition every decade at most please.


LilithsThrall wrote:
Sgt. Ed Itionwarrior wrote:
LilithsThrall wrote:
<SNIP>I don't think that's shown all that well. You are comparing an RPG (Pathfinder) with a miniatures strategy game (4e). I'd consider them to be different hobbies. </SNIP>
Reporting as ordered!

It's not an edition war. Hell, I don't even know what "edition war" is in this case. Is it an edition war to point out that football and fantasy football are different kinds of games? No. Likewise, it's not edition warring to point out that 4e and Pathfinder are different kinds of games.

Some people are so afraid to point out the obvious that they'll bend over backwards in order to avoid doing so.
Let's call a spade a spade.

Whatever your feelings about 4e might be, they are competing with PF for largely the same players. 4e/PF has fractured a good deal of my friends, though some play both. There is roleplay in any system, and there has never been rules ajudicating it and therefore no bookspace regarding it. People that play 4e roleplay just as much as pathfinder players, and pathfinder players enjoy tactical combat just as much as 4e players. So if that's what you're trying to say, you're flat wrong.

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