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Gestalt Characters


Advice

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Hey all,
I was just sitting at work and my brain was wondering and i started thinking about gestalt characters. I thought of all of the core classes. Then I started to add in all of the Advanced Players guild new classes and wanted to know what everyone's ideas were on the "coolest/best/worst/overpowered" combos there are. I really like the Witch/Rouge


Full caster/Full Bab will usually be the most OP, the combination really doesn't matter so much.

The one that has been the more "survivable" since 1st edition is fighter priest.

Liberty's Edge

Paladin/Ranger with FE undead. - All good saves and undead detonate on sight.
Ranger/[Sorc or Wiz] - All good saves, good feats that don't require prerequisites.
Undead Oracle/Sorcerer - Only need one stat. Ever.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I don't think "full BAB / full caster" is the way to go at all.

You can only do one or the other -- attack or cast -- each round. Half of your PC's use is completely wasted.

What you want is either full BAB OR full caster plus a class with lots of special quirks -- like a Monk's great Saves and class features or a Rogue's Evasion, Sneaksy and other Thief stuff.

So,
Wizard / Rogue
Wizard / Monk
Fighter / Rogue
Fighter / Cleric
Paladin / Rogue

That kind of schtick.

My favorite was my
Paladin / Warlock


Druid or Monk - These classes gets lots of attacks in a full attack and have night side benefits
combined well with
Fighter or Paladin or Ranger or Rogue - Full BAB classes that get bonus damage to every attack

Cleric/Fighter - Cleric self buffs and healing + fighter damage and armor training

Cleric/Wizard - Mystic theurge without the caster level hit

Rogue/Fighter - Fighter damage + sneak attack damage

Wizard/Sorcerer - The best of both worlds. Sorcerer for your repetative spells, Wizard for you utility spells.

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Charender wrote:
Druid or Monk

How about druid AND monk? Then you could be kung-fu panda!


StabbittyDoom wrote:
Charender wrote:
Druid or Monk
How about druid AND monk? Then you could be kung-fu panda!

A monk gets lots of enhanced unarmed attacks with their flurry with movement and armor bonuses.

A druid gets lots of attacks with their natural weapons with movement and armor bonuses.
There is a lot of overlap between a druid and monk that makes the combination suboptimal.

For damage dealing, I am thinking that Druid/Paladin or Monk/Paladin will be best against evil targets.
Dual wield Fighter/Rogue would be best if you can flank.
Fighter/Druid would be good all around.

A level 10 druid/paladin smite evil + pounce gives you 5 attacks on the charge that are +10(BAB) +2(charging) -3(power attack) +4(smite charisma) +8(strength) +2(enhancement) = +23/+23/+23/+23/+23 to hit for 1d8 +8(strength) +10(smite damage) +6(power attack) +2(enhancement) = 32.5 damage. Against a Fire Giant(CR10, AC 24, 142hp), you will do an average of 169.8 damage that ignores DR on a charge with only a greater magic fang buff.

Casters
Cleric or Druid + Wizard for massive spell selection.
Sorcerer + Wizard for the ultimate god wizard.


I just got through playing a fighter/rogue to level 12, and he was a lot of fun. Not always as effective as the high strength fighter/barbarian in the group, but when I was able to get in full attack sneak attack position it got ugly fast. I rarely missed even when dual wielding and getting in four or five sneak attacks meant the bad guy was either down or severely hurting.

Combine those sneak attacks with crippling strike (rogue talent) and anybody who wasn't already dead wanted to be. Oh, and the fighter was going for a heavy crit build as well. Too bad we never got high enough to where it got really ugly. *grin*

The fighter/barbarian was a real combat machine, and he was pretty much "on" all of the time (unlike my fighter/rogue).

I won't go into the others we had in the group, but it was a very stout group suffice to say.


Charender wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:
Charender wrote:
Druid or Monk
How about druid AND monk? Then you could be kung-fu panda!

A monk gets lots of enhanced unarmed attacks with their flurry with movement and armor bonuses.

A druid gets lots of attacks with their natural weapons with movement and armor bonuses.
There is a lot of overlap between a druid and monk that makes the combination suboptimal.

A level 10 druid/paladin smite evil + pounce gives you 5 attacks on the charge that are +10(BAB) +2(charging) -3(power attack) +4(smite charisma) +8(strength) +2(enhancement) = +23/+23/+23/+23/+23 to hit for 1d8 +8(strength) +10(smite damage) +6(power attack) +2(enhancement) = 32.5 damage. Against a Fire Giant(CR10, AC 24, 142hp), you will do an average of 169.8 damage that ignores DR on a charge with only a greater magic fang buff.

Don't druids have to be neutral?


Dosgamer wrote:


Don't druids have to be neutral?

Yeah, but then a lot of groups don't enforce that requirement.

A fighter/druid has the same to hit, and hits for 6 less per attack against any target.

Liberty's Edge

Dosgamer wrote:
Charender wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:
Charender wrote:
Druid or Monk
How about druid AND monk? Then you could be kung-fu panda!

A monk gets lots of enhanced unarmed attacks with their flurry with movement and armor bonuses.

A druid gets lots of attacks with their natural weapons with movement and armor bonuses.
There is a lot of overlap between a druid and monk that makes the combination suboptimal.

A level 10 druid/paladin smite evil + pounce gives you 5 attacks on the charge that are +10(BAB) +2(charging) -3(power attack) +4(smite charisma) +8(strength) +2(enhancement) = +23/+23/+23/+23/+23 to hit for 1d8 +8(strength) +10(smite damage) +6(power attack) +2(enhancement) = 32.5 damage. Against a Fire Giant(CR10, AC 24, 142hp), you will do an average of 169.8 damage that ignores DR on a charge with only a greater magic fang buff.

Don't druids have to be neutral?

Only on one axis. They can be lawful neutral.

The main issue here is his complete neglect of the fact that my comment was a joke designed to reference a movie.

Though I do believe that a monk/druid has a nice offensive synergy: Nothing says you have to be humanoid to use unarmed strike or flurry. What's the 20th level unarmed strike monk damage for huge size? Something like 6d8?
The defensive synergies are obvious (wild shape form never has armor, already need wisdom for casting so the AC is basically free).


I'm currently running a gestalt campaign and 2 of the characters are particularly hardy and powerful.

The Sorc(Arc)/Rogue pulled off an improved invisibility/shocking grasp+sneak attack combo with his bonded rapier - twas gross and wonderful at the same time.

The Fighter/Paladin is a really, really powerful combo too.

We're having a 3rd character join next session who went Sorc(Fey)/Fighter/Arc Archer - we'll see how that stacks up in actual play.

Shadow Lodge Star Voter 2013

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Bard/Summoner

Summon your army and then sing your way to battlefield domination!


I was thinking of a Barbarian with a Alchemist's mutagen Or a Rouge with a summoners Aspect for more arms. I think a witch/Bard would be really fun with. While you are playing your harp you are Cackling


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Gestalt ranger/ranger and quadruple-wield?


StabbittyDoom wrote:


Though I do believe that a monk/druid has a nice offensive synergy: Nothing says you have to be humanoid to use unarmed strike or flurry. What's the 20th level unarmed strike monk damage for huge size? Something like 6d8?
The defensive synergies are obvious (wild shape form never has armor, already need wisdom for casting so the AC is basically free).

My favorite gestalt synergy between monk and druid is using a quarterstaff, casting shilleleagh on it and then flurrying with your new 2d6+str mod bludgeoning tool... makes for quite an impact at 1st level. And you don't even need to get your hands dirty!


I favor the Sor/Wiz combo and the Sor/ftr combo myself.


Would you guys allow your barbarian/cleric gestalt to take a single feat or rage power to allow him casting during his rage?


.
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...
....
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Pesonally I second the Monk/Paladin gestalt -- punching evil in the face = fun!

*SMITE MAKES RIGHT!*

A Barbarian/Druid, focusing on Wild Shape, would be a riot..

..as would a bard/wizard -- skills and spell choice to overcome any situation/problem outside of direct damage-dealing combat. Such a useful person to have on the team - *THE* troubleshooter..

...and a Monk/Sorcerer would also be tasty - just be sure to spells that enhance your Monk strengths/counter your Monk weaknesses, rather than straight blasting spells.

*shakes fist*


BenignFacist wrote:
..as would a bard/wizard -- skills and spell choice to instigate any situation/problem outside of direct damage-dealing combat. *THE* troublemaker..

Fixed. :)

Dark Archive

awesome synergies?

sorc/paladin
monk/rogue
monk/druid
fighter/anything
ranger/rogue
rogue/any caster
Rogue/Barbarian
Barbarian/druid (great flavor)

interesting 3.5 charaters i made gestalted (the only other dm loves gestalting pc's)

Tinman- warforged soulknife/artificer aka "just try and loot me i got nothin"

captain creepy- dalkyr 1/2 blood dread necro/ranger (went impure prince) had a bunch of symbiotes, and spells like restoration and natures wrath as a necro (confuses the hell outta people) aka "i'm not evil!!!!"(dm killed him because he was LN)

Grunt- Samurai/soulknife (had weapon of legacy soulkniife weapon so he could have 2 handed katana or twf katana/short sword)

and nawtso creepy- warlock 10/scout5/psi war2/rogue 3 (took feats for improved skirmish and to stack rogue scout for skirmish, had a 20+d6 every 2 rounds blast scheme from greater psionic shot, sneak attack, skirmish and eldrich blast, my response to Capt. Creepy's death)

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

You could hit 58 Str if you gestalt Barbarian 20 with Sorc 10/DD 10 and start at 20 str (+5 tome and +6 item of course).
Just use form of the dragon III and rage! Nothing like being able to use multi-story buildings as weapons.


StabbittyDoom wrote:
Dosgamer wrote:
Charender wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:
Charender wrote:
Druid or Monk
How about druid AND monk? Then you could be kung-fu panda!

A monk gets lots of enhanced unarmed attacks with their flurry with movement and armor bonuses.

A druid gets lots of attacks with their natural weapons with movement and armor bonuses.
There is a lot of overlap between a druid and monk that makes the combination suboptimal.

A level 10 druid/paladin smite evil + pounce gives you 5 attacks on the charge that are +10(BAB) +2(charging) -3(power attack) +4(smite charisma) +8(strength) +2(enhancement) = +23/+23/+23/+23/+23 to hit for 1d8 +8(strength) +10(smite damage) +6(power attack) +2(enhancement) = 32.5 damage. Against a Fire Giant(CR10, AC 24, 142hp), you will do an average of 169.8 damage that ignores DR on a charge with only a greater magic fang buff.

Don't druids have to be neutral?

Only on one axis. They can be lawful neutral.

The main issue here is his complete neglect of the fact that my comment was a joke designed to reference a movie.

Though I do believe that a monk/druid has a nice offensive synergy: Nothing says you have to be humanoid to use unarmed strike or flurry. What's the 20th level unarmed strike monk damage for huge size? Something like 6d8?
The defensive synergies are obvious (wild shape form never has armor, already need wisdom for casting so the AC is basically free).

The problem with monk/druid is.

-Increased unarmed strike damage does not apply to natural weapons
-Monk movement bonuses do not apply to druid most druid movement modes(fly, swim, etc.)
-I do not believe you can combine flurry with a full set of natural weapon attacks. A level 10 druid/monk in cat form would either make a flurry progression of +8/+8/+8/+3/+3 using any natural attack in each attack or they can make a cat form full attack of +7/+7/+7 with another +7/+7 when pouncing.


Umbral Reaver wrote:
Gestalt ranger/ranger and quadruple-wield?

Only if I can quadruple wield bows and double many shot so that I can fire 4 arrows from each bow...


Dal Selpher wrote:

I'm currently running a gestalt campaign and 2 of the characters are particularly hardy and powerful.

The Sorc(Arc)/Rogue pulled off an improved invisibility/shocking grasp+sneak attack combo with his bonded rapier - twas gross and wonderful at the same time.

The Fighter/Paladin is a really, really powerful combo too.

We're having a 3rd character join next session who went Sorc(Fey)/Fighter/Arc Archer - we'll see how that stacks up in actual play.

Yeah, I can see the fighter/paladin. Take a dual kukri fighter who already does decent damage and give them smite, lay on hands, and some basic buffing spells.


Since the recommendations for best combinations seem to be all over the place why don't we turn it around....

What are the worst Gestalt combinations?

The Exchange

I think the point that he was trying to make about the monk/druid is that nothing says that a bear can't use an unarmed strike instead of natural weapons. Any normal bear wouldn't be good at it, sure, but this bear happens to also be a monk. Also, if that works, then pounce will become very nasty indeed with flurry.


Hunterofthedusk wrote:
I think the point that he was trying to make about the monk/druid is that nothing says that a bear can't use an unarmed strike instead of natural weapons. Any normal bear wouldn't be good at it, sure, but this bear happens to also be a monk. Also, if that works, then pounce will become very nasty indeed with flurry.

Yes, but you lose out on the extra damage that your natural weapons give you.

The bigger problem is that natural attacks and flurry do not mix well.

I would rather have a druid natural attack progression or a monk flurry with paladin or fighter damage bonuses.


Alchemist/Artificer would be crazy awesome, not to mention just plain crazy, for a mad scientist character.

The Exchange

The only thing that I can see as being a problem is picking classes that are both MAD, like Monk/Paladin. So, you need high strength for attack/damage, dexterity and wisdom for armor class, constitution as much as any other character, and charisma for all of your paladin stuff. The only stat that you can afford to dump is intelligence, but it's never fun for me to play someone with no skill points.

The Monk/Fighter gets a lot of feats and cool abilities, but is basically wasting his Armor Training or losing most of his monk abilities.

If some of the Alignment restrictions are removed (either for a lawful barbarian or non-lawful paladin), Barbarian/Paladin is actually a very good combo because of the mercy that allows lay on hands to cure fatigue as a swift action on self. It allows you to drop out of rage so that you can do spellcasting or use a skill that requires properly functioning mental faculties, and then remove the fatigue to get right back to raging. Not to mention that smite+rage equals tons of damage

The Exchange

Charender wrote:
Yes, but you lose out on the extra damage that your natural weapons give you.

How do you figure? After you apply the modifications for size increases, your unarmed attack damage should be at least as high, if not higher, than the damage for a natural weapon at the same size. Not to mention that constant magic item bonuses will still function, so you can still get the benefit from a monk's robe to increase your damage/AC even more, and you get the AC bonus from your wisdom (also known as a Druid's main casting stat). That's not even mentioning that they share stat priorities, whereas other combos like Druid/Paladin suddenly become very MAD

The Exchange

Barbarian/Summoner would be one I'd love to try. I'd have a large, flying eidolon that looks something like a dragon, and max ranks in Ride. This would just be a lot of fun to play.

An Inquisitor/Monk could have some nice synergy. You get extra skill points and extra ways to use your high wisdom from the Inquisitor, combined with good saves, flurry, and all of the other random Monk abilities would make a very cool holy assassin type character.

Alchemist and Wizard have some good synergy too, with alchemist providing extra skills and freeing up the Wizards spells a bit by covering just about any buffs he might need. I'd be intrigued with the as-yet-undetailed Magus as an alternative to Wizard with this combo, if the class ends up using Intelligence for its spells, for a fantastic self-buffing combatant who has bombs as a ranged backup plan.


Hunterofthedusk wrote:
Charender wrote:
Yes, but you lose out on the extra damage that your natural weapons give you.
How do you figure? After you apply the modifications for size increases, your unarmed attack damage should be at least as high, if not higher, than the damage for a natural weapon at the same size. Not to mention that constant magic item bonuses will still function, so you can still get the benefit from a monk's robe to increase your damage/AC even more, and you get the AC bonus from your wisdom (also known as a Druid's main casting stat). That's not even mentioning that they share stat priorities, whereas other combos like Druid/Paladin suddenly become very MAD

Natural weapons give you a about a 1-2 dice bump in damage over unarmed.

Medium unarmed is 1d3. A medium natural weapon creature does 1d6 or 1d4.
Large unarmed is 1d4. Large natural weapon is 1d8 or 1d6.
Since you are using the monks unarmed damage, you are not getting the benefit of the animal's natural weapons. You lose out on the damage bump, the special properties of the natural attack, and the extra attacks at full BAB.

A 6th level druid/monk can turn into a dire tiger and pounce for +4/+4/+4/+4/+4 or you can pounce and flurry for +4/+4/+4/-1 with a ki point. The druids natural attacks will do 1d8 +str and 1d6+str x4 while the Monks attacks will all do 1d10 + str. Yes, the monk gets increased damage for being large, but they lose out on the extra attacks that using natural weapons give you. They miss out on the extra damage that natural attacks gain over unarmed attack and the lose the automatic grapple attempt on the bite.

Yes, monks and druids both use wisdom, but so do monks and clerics. A monk flurry with divine power and righteous might seems like a better combo. Especially if you take plant domain for the wooden fists(+1/2 cleric level to unarmed attacks)

As for a monk/paladin. At level 20 your only required stat is a 14 charisma.


Following up on the Monk/Cleric idea above

Cleric takes Darkness/Plant Domains. Darkness gives you some fun tricks like blind-fight, giving your opponents a miss chance, and bing able to see through any type of darkness. Plant domain gives you wooden fists(0.5 cleric level to unarmed damage) and bramble armor.

At level 10 the Monk/Cleric with 20 str(24 with RM up), Divine Power and Righteous Might will have a +10(BAB when flurry) -2(flurry penalty) +7(str) +1(Wep Focus) +3(Divine Power) +2(enhancement bonus) -3(power attack) = +18/+18/+18/+13/+13. Damage will be 2d6(large monk unarmed) + 7(str) +6(Power attack) +3(Divine Power) +2(enhancement) +5(wooden fists) = 30 damage. Average DPR on a full attack is 107 damage.

You could go with Wis, dex, str as your primary stats. Or you could go just wis and dex with finesse.


Does Gestalt basically mean you are just leveling up in 2 classes at the same time?

The Exchange

Actually, at level 6 a large monk's unarmed damage is 2d6+str (2d8+str with monk robe), and a Dire Tiger does not get 5 attacks on the pounce- You must begin your turn grappling the foe to get those two extra attacks (from rake). Also, to maintain a grapple you cannot make a full attack every round, giving you, at max, 3 attacks per round (one from maintaining the grapple, and the other two from rake, or the three from a full attack)

The Exchange

Vult Wrathblades wrote:
Does Gestalt basically mean you are just leveling up in 2 classes at the same time?

yes, taking the better of the BAB, HD, saves, and Skill points, combining the class skill list, and then taking every ability from both classes.

And I imagine that the new variants for the base classes in the APG will expand this "best combos" list at least tenfold


Hunterofthedusk wrote:
Actually, at level 6 a large monk's unarmed damage is 2d6+str (2d8+str with monk robe), and a Dire Tiger does not get 5 attacks on the pounce- You must begin your turn grappling the foe to get those two extra attacks (from rake). Also, to maintain a grapple you cannot make a full attack every round, giving you, at max, 3 attacks per round (one from maintaining the grapple, and the other two from rake, or the three from a full attack)

Spoiler:

Pounce (Ex)

When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

Format: pounce; Location: Special Attacks.

Um, yes, you do 5 attacks on a pounce....

I was leaving out the monk belt because it is irrelevant. My point is that natural attacks give a damage increase over unarmed attack. Monk unarmed attacks give you an increase in dice size over normal unarmed attack. The 2 increases do not stack. In most cases the monk increase is better, so you are losing out on the other benefits of having natural attacks. The hit and damage bonuses of a fighter, ranger, or paladin would have better synergy in most cases.

As for the MAD issues...
If I was running a campaign with gestalt character I would use an epic(25) point buy, and I would give out about 50% more loot than normal. This would let each character perform on the level of about 2 normal characters.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Maps Subscriber
Salovs wrote:

Hey all,

I was just sitting at work and my brain was wondering and i started thinking about gestalt characters. I thought of all of the core classes. Then I started to add in all of the Advanced Players guild new classes and wanted to know what everyone's ideas were on the "coolest/best/worst/overpowered" combos there are. I really like the Witch/Rouge

How can you tell that the Witch has makeup on? It's a B&W picture.


For the worsts...That's hard to say, any of them could work out with a little effort. The Cleric/Paladin wouldn't gain much, they both have channel energy, can wear heavy armor, and can wield most shields, the cleric pretty much offers more spell casting.


For free RPG day we got a booklet that has a color picture of her, and she is wearing a lot of makeup (don't know about rouge, though).


For the worst...

Cleric/Druid... by the time you finish buffing, the fight is already over.

wizard or sorcerer + fighter, ranger, rogue, or paladin. Since you cannot cast spells and fight at the same time, these combos will suffer at lower levels until you can quicken spells or branch into a prestege class like eldritch knight or arcane trickster.


Similar to the summoner/bard, and caster druid/bard, conjurer/bard or a sorcerer/bard that is focused on summons would be evil. Druids, sorcerers, and wizards can actually summon more creatures than a summoner. The summoner has better summons via their SLA, but it is limited to 1 at a time and their summon monster spells on their spell lists lag behind the summons that other classes get.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Kierato wrote:
For the worsts...That's hard to say, any of them could work out with a little effort. The Cleric/Paladin wouldn't gain much, they both have channel energy, can wear heavy armor, and can wield most shields, the cleric pretty much offers more spell casting.

Paladin would gain a greater amount of channels for lay on hands, the clerics assortment of buff and battle spells, You'd effectively would have Padzilla.


Gestalt would make that Paladin/Sorceror/Dragon Disciple combo excellent. Just start out with Paladin/Sorceror and then change your sorceror to DD when you can (level 6 I think?) You end up with Full BAB, almost max sorceror spells (go back to sorc after DD and you even get your Draconic bloodline 20th level power) and full on Paladin abilites including their divine spells. 10 levels of d12 hp, stat bonuses. Also not too much MAD, top up your Cha and Str, followed by Con. Get the bonded weapon option as Paladin since you will be your own mount with the wings.


Umbral Reaver wrote:
BenignFacist wrote:
..as would a bard/wizard -- skills and spell choice to instigate any situation/problem outside of direct damage-dealing combat. *THE* troublemaker..

Fixed. :)

*appaulds*

>_< :D

lol, fair point!

...how about a wizard/rogue/Arcane Trickster/Assassin?

ok, i've put zero deep thought into what'd that actually mean but hey, it *sounds* pretty.. *-*

or...

Paladin/Rogue combo?

SNEAK ATTASMITE! *BAM!

No, wait, surely a rogue/monk/assassin?

O-o

Cake/Pie/Toast?

*shakes fist*

Shadow Lodge Star Voter 2013

Paladin/Sorcerer going for DragonDisciple on the Sorcerer side! Form of the Dragon Smite!

Sovereign Court

Inquisitor/Rogue is very dangerous at low levels, especially with the Precise Strike teamwork feat and Bane boosting the damage... As well as Divine Favour etc.

Liberty's Edge

For a real hell of a sneak attack try this:
Rogue/Sorcerer to 4
Rogue/Arcane Trickster until 14th level
Rogue/Assassin until 20th
This nets you the ability to walk through an area unseen and leave a silent-still delayed blast fireball which (not long later) explodes, hitting everyone in the room for 14d6 + 18d6 sneak attack, forcing those hit to make a fort save versus death and take 18 bleed (fire bleed?). One of those targets may have to make TWO saves against death (death attack).
Meanwhile, you've teleported safely home.
So much for that would-be elite squad.


We played a Gestalt campaign in the Eberron setting a while ago. I can't remember my exact stats but I had a Druid/Monk with Shifter as race. Combining the various shifter abilities with monk attacks and druid buffing, I could do some pretty horrendous damage without having to use the druid's shapechange ability.

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