Vital Strike Builds, when can it be better


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Grand Lodge

Here's another idea. You could use the Atrillery teamwork feat to work with a team mate to use a large Heavy crossbow, take a dip into wizard for Gravity Bow or buy a wand and shoot Huge Crossbow bolts at the enemy. Because the feat lets one person use their actions and feats to reload and the shooters actions and feats for attacks you can have a pair of halfling snipers. The spotter/loader builds into the helpful halfling aid other to use it's standard action to buff your attack roll and move action to load the weapon. The shooter takes vital strike, Strike True, deadly aim because with all the buffs to attack rolls they can afford the penalties. Sprinkle in some far shot/distance weapon enchantment/sniper slayer and well placed illusions you get a lean mean killing machine. Going sniper halves range penalties, combined with far shot and the distance enchantment you have a max range of 2,400 Ft at a -5 penalty.

Assuming a level 11 team for ImVS and you're getting 3D8 at base, 9D8 and assuming the shooter is a sniper slayer with the accomplished sneak attack feat you get an extra 4D6 on your first shot.


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It makes no sense wasting feats on the Vital Strike chain if all you're adding is a filthy 2d6 with your normie greatsword.

Let's crunch the numbers: Vital Strike with a greatsword is +7 damage, which is more than a Hasted 6th-level fighter receives from Weapon Specialization spread over three attacks that all hit (and his Spec is tied to a specific weapon type, and has feat and class-level prerequisites). The fighter who full-attacked to best enjoy Weapon Specialization's benefit probably ended his turn adjacent to the monster and now must endure its full-attack.

Provided that raw damage is what you wanted out of your feat, Vital Strike is one of the best in the game: it works with any weapon, ranged or melee, and has no requirements aside from BAB. It helps you when you're at your worst (i.e., limited to only one attack). It's only real limitation is that doesn't scale, but then neither does Weapon Specialization. (Of feats that do scale, they often come with a penalty that scales as well, such as Power Attack.)

I wouldn't take Vital Strike if I were, say, an archer. Way too many feats already required for archery, and anything granting another 4.5dmg in less-than-frequent instances probably isn't worth it, particularly since archery as a mechanic is likely to result in more full-attack possibilities.

- - -

Here's how Vital Strike can really kick butt:

1. barbarian1
2. cleric (Kurgess: community/travel)
~
7. barbarian6, rage power (Bestial Leaper), feat (Vital Strike)

Equipment: Boots of Vaulting

Our boy has a d10 polearm and guards the rear. GM calls for initiative. First round, enemy is too distant for us to do much. We drink a potion of Enlarge Person as a move action (via trait or archetype) and cast Expeditious Retreat (as Kurgess cleric). 5' forward and yell everyone to get behind (except other melees, who'll be nearby). With a 20' weapon and a 10' character base, our AoO zone is gigantic.

On our next turn, we jump (we're +16 to the roll from the boots and Raging Leaper before adding dexterity and skill ranks with class bonus, and are considered to have a running start) over a knot of allies and enemies in melee over to the back side of the enemy, land in a flanking position, clobber one of them for 4d8+(usual), and can continue moving if we wish (up to 80' of movement available). The enemy will find it difficult to retreat by nonmagical means, or maneuver effectively.

(BB)AAEOO(BB) -- Enlarged barbarian (BB) starts on left, jumps two allies and an enemy to his right. "O" are empty squares.

Vital Strike gives him +9pts of damage, and compares well to Power Attack (currently at -2/+6 for him, and -3/+9 in two more levels).

Silver Crusade

Slim Jim wrote:
Vital Strike with a greatsword is +7 damage, which is more than a Hasted 6th-level fighter receives from Weapon Specialization spread over three attacks that all hit

Yeah right. Except that VS is +7 damage MINUS all the damage you're not doing full attacking, while Weapon Specialisation is +6 ON TOP of the full attack damage.

Slim Jim wrote:
Let's crunch the numbers

If you want to crunch the numbers, do it right.

Let's take your very specific build (which makes no sense in a generic discussion like this, but anyway...) as an example.

At 7th level you should have BAB +6, hopefully a base Str of 22, +4 from rage, a mwk weapon, -2 from Power Attack, and let's add another +4 to hit given by flanking and random buffs, for a total of +11 to hit. Average AC of enemies at CR 7 is 20. The probability of hitting is p = 0.6.

Your static damage should be instead something around +20 (+12 from Str, +6 from Power Attack, +2 from additional sources).

At 7th level you get Vital Strike, cool, but it takes you 2 rounds to damage the enemy, for a grand total of p*(4d8 + 20) = 22.8, that is 11.4 per round. Let's include the +2 to Str from Enlarge Person and let's round to 12 points of damage per round.

Now let's say that instead of Vital Strike, you got ANY other feat. It could be Weapon Proficiency [better weapon], Iron Will, Improved Initiative, That-Feat-You-Need-To-Continue-With-Your-Build. We'll take Skill Focus [Dance], and instead of those boots I've never heard of (I wonder why), we got a mithril Breastplate, because safety first.

First round, we don't waste our time on that nonsense and we charge or simply move in position (we can move 30 + 10(Barb) + 10(Cleric) + 30(Haste, because at 7th level is assumed as normal), and usually fights start when enemies are at most 2 average move actions away, so we're ok even just with moving). First round, we attack. Damage: p*(1d10 + 20) = 15.3.
Second round, we are already in position, and we full-attack. The probability of hitting with the secondary attack is p' = 0.35. The total damage is: 2*p*(1d10 + 20) + p'*(1d10 + 20) = 39.525, which added to the previous 15.3, makes ~55 points of damage, that is ~27.5 per round, which is more than DOUBLE the amount made in the previous case.

If we want to overdo things, instead of Bestial Leaper, we get lesser Fiend Totem for a nice gore attack, and instead of the useless Skill Focus [Dance], we get another equally useless (in this context) feat: Multiattack. The probability of hitting with the secondary gore is p'' = 0.5, which adds another p''*(1d8 + 8) = 6.25 on the second round. It is not much, true...except that it even more than the extra damage added by Vital Strike (p*(2d8) = 5.4). Of course we can just go Beast Totem and get pounce at 10th level, which almost completely annihilates any residual use of Vital Strike.
But we don't want to overdo, so let's go back to the jumping Barbarian with Skill Focus [Dance].

Now, considering that CR 7 enemies have, on average, ~85 hp, and assuming that in the party there is at least another damage dealer with the same damage power as us (martial/caster/mixed, does not matter), using your build, in 2 rounds the enemy will still have half his hp. Using ours, he's dead, and we can spend the remaining rounds of your fight dancing with +3 to the Performance check.

Conclusion
Best case scenario: aside from very specific builds (see my previous post), Vital Strike does not add anything to the build, if not a few occasional extra points of damage (and much less on average), which however are definitely not worth the expenditure of a feat (or more, considering the feat chain).
Worst case scenario: using Vital Strike can actually hinder the damage power of an otherwise perfectly normal and functional build to the point that ANY feat is a better choice.

A few things are still missing, such as critical hits (which go in favour of the non-Vital Strike build), but overall this is the kind of things I look at when deciding if a feat is worth or not. Anyone is free to use Vital Strike on random builds or think whatever they want about it. I -personally- trust maths.


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Gray Warden wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
Vital Strike with a greatsword is +7 damage, which is more than a Hasted 6th-level fighter receives from Weapon Specialization spread over three attacks that all hit
Yeah right. Except that VS is +7 damage MINUS all the damage you're not doing full attacking, while Weapon Specialisation is +6 ON TOP of the full attack damage.

There is no "Except..." because you do not always receive a full-attack action with a melee weapon. Even my fast polearm guys get 'em only half the time in PFS. Full-time melee full-attacking is a DPR-contest artificial luxury.

And really: Nobody anywhere has ever suggested that a martial should willingly forgo an available full-attack in order to pick up a few dice from Vital Strike save in those corner cases where moving is the more prudent option anyway -- and yet such is almost aways the given assumption of every detractor I see who is arguing that Vital Strike is a bad feat. E.g., "What are yah, some kind a moron who doesn't take full-attacks???" etc. Ah, no. I'm simply comparing what the feat grants in and of themselves from within the context of you probably not always being eligible for a full-attack.

Scenario: A fighter with Weapon Specialization and a barbarian with Vital Strike are in a three-round encounter. Of these three rounds, the fighter gets a full-attack in two of them, and the barbarian gets only one (because he's a mobile, fill-in-the-gap tactical build, and also is more likely to drop a solitarily opponent on the first hit by sheer dint of doing more base damage). Posting that each character has at least one attack every round and does not miss, who receives more bonus damage from their feat? ...The barbarian picks up +18 with two move/attack Vital Strikes with a 2d8 enlarged weapon. The fighter earns +14 off seven attacks with Weapon Specialization. The fighter's bonus damage from feat alone pulls even to the barbarian's Vital Strike only in the case of him being Hasted while the barbarian is not (in which case the fighter picks up another +4 to tie the +18 off nine attacks versus the barb's five).

In this example (fighter with three attacks getting a full-attack 66.67% of the time), Weapon Specialization was still worse than Vital Strike in generating additional damage. The fighter needs to average four attacks per full-attack, or achieve full-attacks 75% of the time, to earn more from his feat.

With his reach weapon, the barbarian is much more likely than the fighter to receive AoOs during the enemy's turn (in order words, the "sting" of not having the same number of in-turn full-attacks isn't really there).

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Let's take your very specific build (which makes no sense in a generic discussion like this, but anyway...)

It makes sense when accounting for a standard intelligent party-marching formation: stealth ally on point, slow-moving high AC tank comes next (e.g., dwarf fighter) then the middle squishies, and finally the fast/light-infantry with lower AC (the barbarian, or a mounted concept) guarding the rear. The rogue alerts the party, and everybody buffs. -- You don't want the low AC martial up front until you know the situation, and you don't want the turtle guarding the rear.

As far as my barbarian's build goes, well, it may not be common, but it sure is a lot more durable than your standard dimwit greatsword charge-monkey who runs up and gets cut down. At least, I've found it to be so.

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At 7th level you should have BAB +6, hopefully a base Str of 22, +4 from rage, a mwk weapon, -2 from Power Attack, and let's add another +4 to hit given by flanking and random buffs, for a total of +11 to hit. Average AC of enemies at CR 7 is 20. The probability of hitting is p = 0.6.

At 7th, I'll be Str 26 while Enlarged and wearing a +2 belt, for a +19 to hit into flank with a +1/Furious weapon. Probability of hitting AC20 is .95, or .85 if Power Attacking, or still .95 if the target fell prone in the wizard's Grease or to somebody's trip.

Damage-per-swat will be on the order of 2d8+15 before accounting either Power Attack or Vital Strike. Do both, and the enemy eats about forty in one swat.

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At 7th level you get Vital Strike, cool, but it takes you 2 rounds to damage the enemy...
Where are you starting the round-count from? The buff round, or the move round? Bestial Leaper is basically Spring Attack for barbarians that stacks with Vital Strike. The move and the swat happen in the same round.
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First round, we don't waste our time on that nonsense and we charge or simply move in position (we can move 30 + 10(Barb) + 10(Cleric) + 30(Haste, because at 7th level is assumed as normal)

Haste at 7th is far from de rigueur (at least in PFS), and if moving, wouldn't get Haste's extra attack anyway. There's also a bunch of people in the way, so charging may not happen either. On top of that, the enemy might not yet be viewable or easily approachable. Lots of variable that multiple to reduce frequency of full-attacking or even attacking at all in the case of the initial round.

If we move up to the head of the marching order during the buff round, the enemy will adjust its tactics. Instead of them charging into melee (since the tank ally's tower shield orientation negates their archery, but they do not particularly feat the fighter's 5' reach weapon), they'll instead hang back and pincushion the raging barbarian's dumped AC. (This results in both the tank fighter and the cleric yelling at the barbarian for being an idiot, the former because he invested in high AC and takes "point" for a reason, and the latter because now she has less flexibility if she's immediately called upon to save my bleeding behind.)

Even if the enemy does stupidly rush up and eat a bunch of polearm AoOs (because they're mindless undead or some such), it's still not the most ideal tactic from a whole-party perspective: I'm not providing flank to my allies, and by rushing up right away, I would limit area-of-effect options by ally casters.

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Now let's say that instead of Vital Strike, you got ANY other feat. It could be Weapon Proficiency [better weapon], Iron Will, Improved Initiative, That-Feat-You-Need-To-Continue-With-Your-Build.

There are lots of good feats out there, but most of them with a BAB6 requirement have other annoying prerequisites, and are tailored for maximizing nova power. But I'm a barbarian; I already do a lot of damage. -- But what would be really useful is a feat that contributes when I'm not going nova?

Vital Strike has no tax prerequisites, and is a good bugger to tuck in before the BAB/level 8/9/11-required feats come on line. If our feat list gets crowded then, we can always retrain Vital Strike out. In the meantime, having it is better that having a useless "tax" feat stinking up the joint and having to frown at it every time the thing we just smacked is still up on one bloody fingernail, and we're second-guessing, "Another 2d8 would'a polished that sucker off..."

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We'll take Skill Focus [Dance], and instead of those boots I've never heard of (I wonder why), we got a mithril Breastplate, because safety first.

Boots of Vaulting are 3500gp and from a 2014 book...but the trick is: you don't actually need the boots (your jumping range will simply be shorter), but they are very nice.

Breaking low encounters designed around the assumption that PCs can't easily get to spot X prior to fly is a lot of fun.

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If we want to overdo things, instead of Bestial Leaper, we get lesser Fiend Totem for a nice gore attack,...
I'll get a gore with an Animal Mask and keep the rage-power slot open. And what is a gore anyway? -- Just another iterative attack (read: requires a full-attack). Bestial Leaper lets us do something new that no one else can (not even a Spring Attack monk). Whole new options open up.
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Now, considering that CR 7 enemies have, on average, ~85 hp, and assuming that in the party there is at least another damage dealer with the same damage power as us (martial/caster/mixed, does not matter), using your build, in 2 rounds the enemy will still have half his hp. Using ours, he's dead, and we can spend the remaining rounds of your fight dancing with +3 to the Performance check.

From the fairly common marching-order set-up, employing the tactic I suggested, the enemy is screwed. They are trapped between a high-AC tank and an enlarged barbarian with a polearm. If they attack the tank, they wiff. They can't attack the barbarian at all unless they eat AoOs (and no god will help them if I also have Fortuitous on my weapon).

The difference in price between Boots of Vaulting and Boots of Speed is 8500gp, which covers 85% of the cost of upgrading our +1/Furious weapon to a +1/Furious/Fortuitous one.

Our first-level feat? ...Combat Reflexes.

-- How do the dwarf turtle-fighter and the half-orc reach-barbarian make beautiful music together around 7th? Here's how: At the same the barb is spending 10k to upgrade his weapon a 3rd time, the dwarf drops the same on a Commander's Helm and shares Paired Opportunists with his allies during the buff round. Every time the barbarian gets a free AoO swat with his polearm, everybody else threatening the same opponent gets one too.


one thing everyone seem to forget, Enlarge, impact and oversized weapon. It feels so good rolling all thoose dice! And its quite often I'm denied full attack.

But dont forget that feeling! its like charging with a lance, every time :)

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