I would like to politely point out an attitude on this forum (and, well, quite a few other places) that is getting on my nerves.


Books

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Dark Lord of Derkhelm. It's good, but not her best. Try Hexwood or Homeward Bounders first.

Gaiman did write Graveyard, but I'm thinking more of Anansi Boys, which is probably less appropriate.


Yucale wrote:
Didn't he write the Graveyard Book? My teacher suggested it, so my mom would probably be OK with it.

He did. And she propably will. Omly gaiman book i think she will though.

And you said you haven't read Pratchet yet, right? Well I'm recomending him, The Discworld series is really funny, with some of the newer books actually being better than some of the older ones. And it doesn't have any blatant sexuality or gore so your mom will propably be okay with them.


Yucale wrote:

What my parents want me to read;

-Little house on the Prairie
-Nancy Drew

Hey now, do not knock Nancy Drew/Hardy Boys, especially the originals. It's the very meat of good gaming right there, it is. Besides, it's not like those counterfietters in Smuggler's Cove are going to catch themselves.

It bears relevance to explain some of the attitudes. A lot of the Earthsea hate is splash damage from the hate towards the author. A lot of the Drizzit hate is just plain embarrassment at being reminded of things of our own youth, the sort of functional equivalent of talking about my disastrous date with Carrie Berman in the 7th grade. A lot of the WoW hate is illusory. The Twilight hate, well, there are some things that need no explanation.

It's less like elitism and more like hazing. It's the culture, and this great sort of love to hate to nostalgia that geeks really get into. Chances are, if you keep reading and get a better feel for the full gamut of literature and what it brings, you'll find a whole new swath of opinions on all this stuff. Besides, the "Young Adult" is purely the artifice of Booksellers. I mean, an author like MT Anderson should be on most lists of top 50 living writers, it's just that his protagonists tend to be young.

But, Great Caesar's Ghost, you've read the Silmarillion twice? Twice? You haven't just earned your seat at the table; we're saving you a place at the bar.


Hi Yucale. I wanted to welcome you when I saw your name for the first time last week, but forgot to. So welcome now, for now, until I can get into a time machine and take it back when it belongs.


VM mercenario wrote:
Yucale wrote:
Didn't he write the Graveyard Book? My teacher suggested it, so my mom would probably be OK with it.

He did. And she propably will. Omly gaiman book i think she will though.

And you said you haven't read Pratchet yet, right? Well I'm recomending him, The Discworld series is really funny, with some of the newer books actually being better than some of the older ones. And it doesn't have any blatant sexuality or gore so your mom will propably be okay with them.

Pratchett is a very strong recommend.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

To add to the recommendations while trying to not repeat previous ones:

the Alanna series by Tamora Pierce (and it seems she's written many sequels since I read them)
the Deryni books by Katherine Kurtz
the Riftwar books by Raymond Feist
Shanara Books by Terry Brooks
anything by Dave Duncan
anything by David Gemmel

If you like humor in your fantasy:
Discworld books by Terry Prattchet
A Malady of Magicks and sequels by Craig Shaw Gardner
the Myth books by Robert Asprin


having learned to read using the first-edition box-set of D&D, i feel for your situation. opinions expressed on these boards have been appropriately dealt with in previous posts, so i'll keep it to a short list of must-reads, some or many of which i hope you're already familiar with:

Dune; Frank Herbert

most anything by Guy Gavriel Kay, but especially "Sailing to Sarantium" and "Lord of Emperors". "Lions of Al-Rassan" can be read in place of the previous two.

Ishmael; Daniel Quinn. contemporary fiction with a fantastical twist, and mom-friendly.

Book of the New Sun series by Gene Wolfe. amazing world, amazing writing, a credit to the fantasy genre.

a brief nod to others that have been mentioned that might have been lost in this thread: Pullman's Dark Materials, William Gibson's cyberpunk trilogy (he's the guy who coined the term cyberspace) that also happens to have very strong central female characters..., which will lead you to Bruce Sterling. David Brin's uplift wars etc. and Earth.

for vampires and contemporary world-magic, try the translations of Sergei Lukyanenko; "Night Watch", "Twilight Watch", "Day Watch". stay away from the movies of these, though.

i'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Robin Hobb's work, though i'd start with the Mad Ship series... previous books of hers were definitely early-attempts. again, female writer, strong female leads.

Curse of Chalion; Louis McMaster Bujold. holy cow. terrific writing, storytelling and characters (good and bad all fleshed out), marvelous twists and a triumph of accessible, mom-friendly, adult fiction. must recommend this one strongly.

Neil Stephenson, another cyber-punk/historical fiction writer. he has a loyal following, and i think an equally loyal, if not fervent group of haters. try Snowcrash for starters, or his eco-terrorist/activist book "Ecology" before getting into the Baroque Cycle etc.

HP Lovecraft anyone? alien horror twisted by macabre writing. genre defining.

finally, for more adult literature, and less fantasy, try any of the 'place' books by Edward Rutherford. Sarum, London and Russka stand out, but he tackles the history of these locations using fictional (barely) characters to portray events through the ages... a great look at how societies develop along with the people who make them up.

this is more than enough to get you started, and i hope you enjoy the journey...

Liberty's Edge

Freehold DM wrote:
Hey Yucale, check out the Sword and Sorceress series, as well as Thieves World. GREAT stuff, and I don't think you mom will mind them much. Mine didn't, and she thought I was worshipping the devil for a while there.

You mean the Thieve's World where an immortal is given to a vivisectionist for experimenting on, a madame keeps her prostitutes in check by keeping them drugged, some weirdo smears himself with butter, a woman has to cross dress to keep her magical powers, continually references one of the major gods raping his sister, and the cover of one book fairly prominently displays a rather vulgar unicorn?

Mom may not need to see those books...

;)

The Exchange

houstonderek wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Hey Yucale, check out the Sword and Sorceress series, as well as Thieves World. GREAT stuff, and I don't think you mom will mind them much. Mine didn't, and she thought I was worshipping the devil for a while there.

You mean the Thieve's World where an immortal is given to a vivisectionist for experimenting on, a madame keeps her prostitutes in check by keeping them drugged, some weirdo smears himself with butter, a woman has to cross dress to keep her magical powers, continually references one of the major gods raping his sister, and the cover of one book fairly prominently displays a rather vulgar unicorn?

Mom may not need to see those books...

;)

I still Howard is the Bomb. :P


grymrayne wrote:

having learned to read using the first-edition box-set of D&D, i feel for your situation. opinions expressed on these boards have been appropriately dealt with in previous posts, so i'll keep it to a short list of must-reads, some or many of which i hope you're already familiar with:

Dune; Frank Herbert

most anything by Guy Gavriel Kay, but especially "Sailing to Sarantium" and "Lord of Emperors". "Lions of Al-Rassan" can be read in place of the previous two.

Ishmael; Daniel Quinn. contemporary fiction with a fantastical twist, and mom-friendly.

Book of the New Sun series by Gene Wolfe. amazing world, amazing writing, a credit to the fantasy genre.

a brief nod to others that have been mentioned that might have been lost in this thread: Pullman's Dark Materials, William Gibson's cyberpunk trilogy (he's the guy who coined the term cyberspace) that also happens to have very strong central female characters..., which will lead you to Bruce Sterling. David Brin's uplift wars etc. and Earth.

for vampires and contemporary world-magic, try the translations of Sergei Lukyanenko; "Night Watch", "Twilight Watch", "Day Watch". stay away from the movies of these, though.

i'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Robin Hobb's work, though i'd start with the Mad Ship series... previous books of hers were definitely early-attempts. again, female writer, strong female leads.

Curse of Chalion; Louis McMaster Bujold. holy cow. terrific writing, storytelling and characters (good and bad all fleshed out), marvelous twists and a triumph of accessible, mom-friendly, adult fiction. must recommend this one strongly.

Neil Stephenson, another cyber-punk/historical fiction writer. he has a loyal following, and i think an equally loyal, if not fervent group of haters. try Snowcrash for starters, or his eco-terrorist/activist book "Ecology" before getting into the Baroque Cycle etc.

HP Lovecraft anyone? alien horror twisted by macabre writing. genre defining.

finally, for more adult literature, and less...

I loved Pullman's works at first, he's a brilliant writer, but I got tired of him insulting my religion. I don't hate the books, I just can't stand them.


Yucale wrote:
Kruelaid wrote:
Zombieneighbours wrote:

Hi Yucale,

I have to say I liked narnia when I was young, but when I started to understand the subtext, I found myself unable to love them any more. I know find C.S. Lewis very heavy handed. I guess I miss the innocence somewhat....

For my part, I never liked it anyway. C.S. Lewis over-moralizes everything. It dates his work terribly. Personally I think good literature should show you the way, yet still leave judgment open to you.
What put me off the first time was when Aslan, or "Jesus", offhandedly forbid Lucy and her sister from defending their kingdom, simply because they were girls. I found it offended me, my gender, and my religion.

The books are 'of their time' and really in many ways it is less offensive than much of what is in the bible. I would suggest that it being a little old fashioned in its views is less a sin than the heavy handedness of the stories as a whole.


Yucale wrote:
Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

Yucale,

Unless I'm missing it, I don't see you give a discussion of what it is that your mom would find objectionable. Knowing more about that might help with the making of recommendations. I'm sure we can keep you buried in great reading until you pass over into the next phase of your reading life!
Mainly sexuality, she adheres very strongly to the "pure of mind" commandment. Overly gory things gross her out too much for her to able to stand them being in her house. That's the main reason she doesn't like the LotR movies, though she allows me to enjoy them.

Okay, based on this I would say my suggestions might need to be revised.

If you want to read Neil Gaiman, if memory serves me, you will find that Neverwhere, Coraline, Wolves in the Wall and the grave yard book are 'safe' for the reading list.

American Gods, which is my personal favourite, and very, very good, will not meet your mothers standards unfortunately. Of cause, the book is still very good, and worth reading once you get to a stage where your comfortable with it. My other suggestions i am afraid would not get through, but once your a bit older, are very worth reading.


Yucale wrote:
I loved Pullman's works at first, he's a brilliant writer, but I got tired of him insulting my religion. I don't hate the books, I just can't stand them.

Yucale, I hope you will not take offence at this, but you do stand in a position where you are likely to miss out on a very great deal of good books, if you take this attitude. From 'His Dark Materials' and dirk gently's holistic detective agency through to works like the god delusion and god is not great'. A great many people do not share your view of the world, and many of those people have produced very good books based upon their views of the world. If you take offence at their argument, you stand to miss out on books you would other wise enjoy. More importantly, rob your self the opportunity to have your mind changed.

After all, if your faith is strong, and based upon arguments, and if your god it real, it doesn't matter what Pullman writes, you can say, 'I do not agree with this argument', appreciate the writing of it, and then move on.

But if your wrong, you open up world of literary possibility.


Zombieneighbours wrote:

Yucale, I hope you will not take offence at this, but you do stand in a position where you are likely to miss out on a very great deal of good books, if you take this attitude. From 'His Dark Materials' and dirk gently's holistic detective agency through to works like the god delusion and god is not great'. A great many people do not share your view of the world, and many of those people have produced very good books based upon their views of the world. If you take offence at their argument, you stand to miss out on books you would other wise enjoy. More importantly, rob your self the opportunity to have your mind changed.

After all, if your faith is strong, and based upon arguments, and if your god it real, it doesn't matter what Pullman writes, you can say, 'I do not agree with this argument', appreciate the writing of it, and then move on.

But if your wrong, you open up world of literary possibility.

At the same time, most people read fiction for pleasure, and reading a whole book attacking your choice of faith is probably not pleasurable (I've yet to read any book attacking atheism, so I can't say for certain). As for the God Delusion... I'm an atheist, and I still find it too strident in its denounciation of religious people. But that could be because I'm from a country where the largest religious group has no problem with evolution, gay marriage (there was some hand-wringing and a few people left to join other, smaller groups, but on the whole it went through rather painlessly), or other typical modern-day flashpoints, and so don't have to deal with the kind of christian-style taliban-sound-alikes some European america-correspondents love to include in their pictures of the states.


VM mercenario wrote:
Yucale wrote:
Didn't he write the Graveyard Book? My teacher suggested it, so my mom would probably be OK with it.

He did. And she propably will. Omly gaiman book i think she will though.

And you said you haven't read Pratchet yet, right? Well I'm recomending him, The Discworld series is really funny, with some of the newer books actually being better than some of the older ones. And it doesn't have any blatant sexuality or gore so your mom will propably be okay with them.

I dunno... Gaiman has written quite a lot of young adult fiction: Coraline, Mirrormask, and Odd and the Frost Giant are the ones I can call to mind immediately. I also think Stardust wouldn't be inappropriate for a 13 year old.

Yucale, I might recommend the Young Wizard series by Diane Duane, for age-appropriate fantasy. I actually discovered these books as an adult, and can't get enough of them.


Zombieneighbours wrote:
I have to say I liked narnia when I was young, but when I started to understand the subtext, I found myself unable to love them any more.
yucale wrote:
I loved Pullman's works at first, he's a brilliant writer, but I got tired of him insulting my religion. I don't hate the books, I just can't stand them.

I fail to see the difference between these two statements.


Joana wrote:
Zombieneighbours wrote:
I have to say I liked narnia when I was young, but when I started to understand the subtext, I found myself unable to love them any more.
yucale wrote:
I loved Pullman's works at first, he's a brilliant writer, but I got tired of him insulting my religion. I don't hate the books, I just can't stand them.
I fail to see the difference between these two statements.

The problem with the subtext in narnia, is that it is so very badly done. It isn't that aslan is jesus, its the fact that the fact is such a oft repeated and unsubtle hammer blow. His dark materials by contrast carefully weaves an argument over three novels, gently pointing out the flaws in faith.

Narnia was bad, not because i disagree with the world view of the writer, but because he expressed that world view in a clumsy manner.
Tolkin shares a lot with Lewis, yet when he moralises, he doesn't loose you. I don't feel the same about Lewis.

And in fairness i was somewhere between 5 and 7 when I liked C.S.Lewis. I great deal of my lack of love for him, comes from my father having changed to reading me the hobbit, and then terry pratchett.


houstonderek wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
Hey Yucale, check out the Sword and Sorceress series, as well as Thieves World. GREAT stuff, and I don't think you mom will mind them much. Mine didn't, and she thought I was worshipping the devil for a while there.

You mean the Thieves' World where an immortal is given to a vivisectionist for experimenting on, a madame keeps her prostitutes in check by keeping them drugged, some weirdo smears himself with butter, a woman has to cross dress to keep her magical powers, continually references one of the major gods raping his sister, and the cover of one book fairly prominently displays a rather vulgar unicorn?

Mom may not need to see those books...

;)

Yep, that's what I was thinking, HD. Save TW for later.


I think the Gaiman young folks books are another good recommendation.

ZN: There are plenty of people who have very different, positive judgments about Lewis' books. Certainly, everything about the books don't have to be subtle for there to be subtleties in them, which there are.

As far as the not-so-subtle attempt to challenge the faith of a thirteen-year-old, I wonder what type of challenging books you read that disagree with your faith?


Yucale wrote:
If you haven't guessed from my latest Narnia comment, I am a girl.

As the father of a young lady who loves fantasy literature (including Naria) I say, huzzah!


Joana wrote:
Zombieneighbours wrote:
I have to say I liked narnia when I was young, but when I started to understand the subtext, I found myself unable to love them any more.
yucale wrote:
I loved Pullman's works at first, he's a brilliant writer, but I got tired of him insulting my religion. I don't hate the books, I just can't stand them.
I fail to see the difference between these two statements.

That was pretty unclear.

I don't think the books themselves are inherently bad, they're actually quite good, but because of my views I can derive no enjoyment from reading them past about the middle of the series.


Roald Dahl is a writer I read as a child and rediscovered as an adult. I read a bunch of his kids books in elementary school, and almost 20 years later I found his short stories for adults, which are quite good. Many are somewhat dark and often feature surprise endings. On the whole, enjoyable and very competently done.


Zombieneighbours wrote:

After all, if your faith is strong, and based upon arguments, and if your god it real, it doesn't matter what Pullman writes, you can say, 'I do not agree with this argument', appreciate the writing of it, and then move on.

But if your wrong, you open up world of literary possibility.

In the general, I agree with you. However, Pullman is the wrong example. By book 3, he switches over from Narnia for Atheists to something that's actually anti-theist. The former is cool, especially for the steampunk. The latter, even as an atheist, irritates me to no end, and when not an atheist it reaaaaly irritated me.

Scarab Sages

Yucale wrote:
Face_P0lluti0n wrote:

I'm surprised. I know most (myself, on and off) rage at Drizzt, but I've never heard of *Earthsea* hate. I never read any of the sequels but I remember the first book fondly. Mind expanding upon that one?

My biggest complaint about LotR is that it can be a bit dry, in comparison to modern writings, and that it is not written with modern sensibilities, but then again, it wasn't exactly written in "modern" times.

I have some recommendations for books, based on my own reading, but the subject matter, while not "adult", is rather cynical, so it might not fly.

Ebooks might always work, if you're not averse to many hours spent in front of the PC, but then again, that would still require you having your own credit card to maintain secrecy.

I do not understand Earthsea hate either, while I can understand Drizzt hate. Maybe because of the writing style?

Cynical as in how?

My relationship with Drizzt and the FR is a love-hate one. I loved the first two trilogies (Icewind Dale and Dark Elf) but after that I feel like the same material gets rehashed without enough character development to keep me reading.

But in response to your question, cynical in that one of my favorite fantasy series, Steven Brusts's Vlad Taltos books (starting with Jhereg) have a remorseless assassin for a sympathetic protagonist. There's not much "adult content" but there's plenty of violence, callousness, and crime. It's a great depiction of how a high magic society, like the one D&D 3.5's rules imply, would work.

The Exchange

J.S. wrote:
Zombieneighbours wrote:

After all, if your faith is strong, and based upon arguments, and if your god it real, it doesn't matter what Pullman writes, you can say, 'I do not agree with this argument', appreciate the writing of it, and then move on.

But if your wrong, you open up world of literary possibility.

In the general, I agree with you. However, Pullman is the wrong example. By book 3, he switches over from Narnia for Atheists to something that's actually anti-theist. The former is cool, especially for the steampunk. The latter, even as an atheist, irritates me to no end, and when not an atheist it reaaaaly irritated me.

Fundamentally, the problem with book three is that it simply isn't as good as the previous two, very good books. And as an atheist, I found the tone rather more didactic, part of the reason it isn't as good.


Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

I think the Gaiman young folks books are another good recommendation.

ZN: There are plenty of people who have very different, positive judgments about Lewis' books. Certainly, everything about the books don't have to be subtle for there to be subtleties in them, which there are.

As far as the not-so-subtle attempt to challenge the faith of a thirteen-year-old, I wonder what type of challenging books you read that disagree with your faith?

Well i don't have a faith. I cannot their for read a book that disagrees with it. If you mean, what books do i read that coincide with my lack of belief in gods, well we have greek and nordic myth, we have the king james bible, of which we had large chunks read to us each year in assembly at all three religious schools I attended, as well as having studied the practices of modern paganism, spiritual alchemy, shamanism and so on. On the interlectual level, i devour debates between four horsemen and the apostasy and christian apologists, which has given me plenty of chance to hear and read their counter arguments. So yeah, my world views is challanged often. And frankly, the age of Yucale has little relivance here. Either is capable of deciding for herself(?) about what she believes, and is there for old enough to have that challanged, or she is 'no more a christian than a 5 year old is a member of the general workers union.', and is merely considered to be christian because her parents are. In which case, she should be given every operunity to choose her own path, and it would be better for her, if she had access to all the arguments, rather than just those of her community.


grymrayne wrote:

...

most anything by Guy Gavriel Kay, but especially "Sailing to Sarantium" and "Lord of Emperors". "Lions of Al-Rassan" can be read in place of the previous two....

I've become obsessed with reading GGK lately. Even his poetry. So much to commend I wouldn't know where to start.... so I won't.


I would also recommend David Eddings. His were some of the earlier series I read, but I still like to read one of the series once in a while. They may be somewhat “easy” but they are also amusing, and a good read.

Robin Hobb I also like, the “living ship” and “assassin” books, but may be regarded as somewhat darkish by your mother (With hints towards sexuality).


Yucale wrote:


... I am a girl.

A 13 year old girl on the Paizo boards may_be_a_first.

Instead of reading male dominated fantasy canon (which is mostly what you're getting here) you might want to try something by Marion Zimmer Bradley, Lynn Flewelling, or Isabelle Carmody (not young adult fiction, BTW). [EDIT: I gotta say I personally had trouble with MZB, but I know a lot of girls who loved it.]

I hope that you've read A Wrinkle in Time? Way better than Narnia and about the same age group. Maybe a little below you, you seem pretty sharp.

This is not to say that a girl can't enjoy white-guy gamer books, but your announcement sort of jerked me off my usual "hey everyone's a dude here" train of thought and I'd be remiss if I didn't mention those.

Also Un Lun Dun is a great young adult book with a female protagonist and the usual China Mieville modern magical weirdness. And not condescending... I read it when I was 38 and still got into it. Lots of disturbed tentacle waving China Mieville fans lurking around here, too.


And of course there's always Elaine Cunnignham who has even been known to post on these boards.


A last minute suggestion. I don't think I have seen it mentioned here yet is Susan Cooper's, The Dark is Rising series. Young adult, but a really nice series of books I enjoyed as a lad. Nothing too dark or controversial in them.


Zombieneighbours wrote:

The problem with the subtext in narnia, is that it is so very badly done. It isn't that aslan is jesus, its the fact that the fact is such a oft repeated and unsubtle hammer blow. His dark materials by contrast carefully weaves an argument over three novels, gently pointing out the flaws in faith.

Narnia was bad, not because i disagree with the world view of the writer, but because he expressed that world view in a clumsy manner.
Tolkin shares a lot with Lewis, yet when he moralises, he doesn't loose you. I don't feel the same about Lewis.

Honestly, I think you are giving Pullman a bye here. He 'moralizes' as much as Lewis does in the Narnia series. Just because you prefer his arguments doesn't make them 'carefully woven'. They are quite kludgy and overbearing in parts.

That being said, I did like the series, just as I liked Narnia. Both have their downside in that the authors were pushing agendas. I can overlook that and just read them for what they are on the surface.


I don't think Marion Zimmer Bradley's going to make it past Yucale's mom.


Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
I don't think Marion Zimmer Bradley's going to make it past Yucale's mom.

Sword and Sorceress might, though.


grymrayne wrote:

William Gibson's cyberpunk trilogy (he's the guy who coined the term cyberspace) David Brin's uplift wars etc. and Earth.

Neil Stephenson, another cyber-punk/historical fiction writer. he has a loyal following, and i think an equally loyal, if not fervent group of haters. try Snowcrash for starters, or his eco-terrorist/activist book "Ecology" before getting into the Baroque Cycle etc.

Just wanted to note that Gibson, Brin, and Stephenson probably won't fly because of the sexual content (and the gore in some of the Gibson books).

Yucale, you mentioned that your library only has Abhorsen—is interlibrary loan available? (In Seattle, Boston, and NW WI it's free and very good, but I know that varies wildly.) If so, you could try Nix's Keys to the Kingdom series as well, but Shade's Children is probably out for now.

Marion Zimmer Bradley... could never get into her books, felt guilty about it until I found out about her covering for her husband.


Yucale wrote:
Kruelaid wrote:
Zombieneighbours wrote:

Hi Yucale,

I have to say I liked narnia when I was young, but when I started to understand the subtext, I found myself unable to love them any more. I know find C.S. Lewis very heavy handed. I guess I miss the innocence somewhat....

For my part, I never liked it anyway. C.S. Lewis over-moralizes everything. It dates his work terribly. Personally I think good literature should show you the way, yet still leave judgment open to you.
What put me off the first time was when Aslan, or "Jesus", offhandedly forbid Lucy and her sister from defending their kingdom, simply because they were girls. I found it offended me, my gender, and my religion.

I understand what you mean, I didn't read the book until I was in my late 20's. As a man, it struck me as well, my thought was, "How fantasy books have changed." Still, this mindset is still in place very much today. It is very unusually to find women allowed to serve on the frontlines in most conflicts from any country even today.

Sovereign Court

Zombieneighbours wrote:

Yucale, I hope you will not take offence at this, but you do stand in a position where you are likely to miss out on a very great deal of good books, if you take this attitude. From 'His Dark Materials' and dirk gently's holistic detective agency through to works like the god delusion and god is not great'. A great many people do not share your view of the world, and many of those people have produced very good books based upon their views of the world. If you take offence at their argument, you stand to miss out on books you would other wise enjoy. More importantly, rob your self the opportunity to have your mind changed.

IMO you're not missing anything by not reading Pullman. I couldn't get through the second book.

I will second (or third?) the recommendations for the Prydain series.


Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
I don't think Marion Zimmer Bradley's going to make it past Yucale's mom.

More than likely the back cover reviews are enough to get it tossed.


Judy Bauer wrote:


Marion Zimmer Bradley... could never get into her books, felt guilty about it until I found out about her covering for her husband.

Ewwww.


I should not have clicked the Bradley link. I didn't know that and wish I still didn't. That said, I'm not a huge fan of much of her work, but Mists of Avalon is one of the great takes on King Arthur.

MIsts is not as good as my all-time favorite, The Sleeping HIlls and sequels by Stewart, but it ranks right up there.


I just throw some odd balls in there, but you may consider Andre Norton, although it tends to be sci-fi based. Add to that The Architect of Sleep (Steven R. Boyett), The Sword and the Chain series (Joel Rosenberg), and one from left field Earthman's Burden (Paul Anderson/Gordon R. Dickson).


How many books from Appendix N would get Yucale's mom's pass? Yucale, have you seen the list? Time to get these young folks edumucated in the origins of the game! (Of course, some have already been suggested.

One version, nice but for some broken images.

Here's a convenient location.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

Yucale, have you read The Forgotten Beasts of Eld? It's been a while since I read it, so I can't recall its relevance to your parents' permission filters and at the time I wasn't watching for it, but maybe someone else here can remind me.


Kruelaid wrote:
Yucale wrote:


... I am a girl.

A 13 year old girl on the Paizo boards may_be_a_first.

Instead of reading male dominated fantasy canon (which is mostly what you're getting here) you might want to try something by Marion Zimmer Bradley, Lynn Flewelling, or Isabelle Carmody (not young adult fiction, BTW). [EDIT: I gotta say I personally had trouble with MZB, but I know a lot of girls who loved it.]

I hope that you've read A Wrinkle in Time? Way better than Narnia and about the same age group. Maybe a little below you, you seem pretty sharp.

This is not to say that a girl can't enjoy white-guy gamer books, but your announcement sort of jerked me off my usual "hey everyone's a dude here" train of thought and I'd be remiss if I didn't mention those.

Also Un Lun Dun is a great young adult book with a female protagonist and the usual China Mieville modern magical weirdness. And not condescending... I read it when I was 38 and still got into it. Lots of disturbed tentacle waving China Mieville fans lurking around here, too.

A Wrinkle in Time is a very good book, I agree. I read it a while ago, and probably will re-read it soon.


Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
How many books from Appendix N would get Yucale's mom's pass?

This was a point I wanted to raise. The Dark Elf Trilogy: it gets a pass, but (as memory serves) it has an interspecies orgy that leads to attempted incest, violence specifically drawn as meaningless, and inferred homosexuality. Is she really paying that close attention?


Christopher Dudley wrote:
Yucale, have you read The Forgotten Beasts of Eld? It's been a while since I read it, so I can't recall its relevance to your parents' permission filters and at the time I wasn't watching for it, but maybe someone else here can remind me.

Hey, how did I forget Patricia McKillip? Big +1 here. If you don't mind slower pacing and love language and an almost dream or fairy-tale quality, I'd give her a try.


Yucale, having stated that you read and liked Dragonlance (Sturm, Raist and Tas were my favs.) Have you read any of the other series by Weis and Hickman or other DL books? There are a lot of suggestions out there but stuff clearly written for YA and in the genre is just about any TSR novel. DragonLance, Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, and Ravenloft. I think there are some Greyhawk books, but I have never read any.

When it comes to Weis and Hickman, try the Death Gate Cycle, and Rose of the Prophet.

For other DragonLance stuff, most of the books by Richard A. Knaak (Legend of Huma) I find to be good. He also has a short story in one of the Tales series called Definitions of Honor. Most of his stuff though is about honor from the viewpoint of the Knights and the Minotaurs, and how they see the same thing so differently. I just had to chime in, cause I see all these suggestions and none for Dragonlance, which has, and always will be my favorite world. I don't like the FR campaign, but I like Salvatore's writing. So, although I can't stand the game rules for Driz'zt, I enjoy his stories.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I was kind of lucky growing up in that my father was a big SF/Fantasy reader, so I could always raid his collection if I was looking for new material. He was the one that got me started with L. Frank Baum, C. S. Lewis, and J. R. R. Tolkien. He also allowed me to read some material that was pretty mature for an adolescent (OK, I'll admit I read some of the more risque ones without his knowledge, too). A quick list of some authors and series that you may enjoy and may get past your parents (some may push the boundaries a little, which is usually better than going way over; avoid Sharon Green for example):

Douglas Adams; the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (and sequels) is quite good

Piers Anthony; the Phase/Adept and Xanth novels are mostly OK (the first three of the former are more likely than the rest and the latter become increasingly formulaic); the Incarnations of Immortality might also be OK; some of his other books (Bio of a Space Tyrant, the Cluster series) will almost definitely not make it

Elizabeth Boyer; several good books, with The Sword and the Satchel, The Elves and the Otterskin, and The Wizard War (The Troll's Grindstone, The Curse of Slagfid, The Dragon's Carbuncle, and the Lord of Chaos) probably being the best; they borrow heavily from Celtic and Norse hero tales

Steven Brust; very good author, his Vlad Taltos series is gritty and fast-paced while the related Khaavren series is (deliberately) evocative of The Three Musketeers

Lois McMaster Bujold; fabulous author, read everything of hers you can get your hands on, both her Vorkosigan (and related) SF and her Fantasy (The Spirit Ring, the Chalion trilogy, and The Sharing Knife series)

C. J. Cherryh; some of these may be more likely to be allowed than others; the Fortress series will probably be OK and has a style similar to Lord of the Rings

Gordon R. Dickson; The Dragon and the George starts out with a wild twist on the "modern person transported to magical universe" trope with the person's mind being sent into a dragon's body; an enjoyable novel, although the sequels are a bit less so

David Eddings; mostly famous for the Belgariad and the Mallorean pentads, he's also written the Elenium and the Tamuli triogies; mostly light reading

Raymond E. Feist; the Riftwar Saga is a good read and the Empire trilogy (co-written by Janny Wurts) is even better; his sequels are a bit harder to get into, IMO

Robert Jordan; The Wheel of Time; some people don't like him, but he does interweaving plot threads and foreshadowing better than most authors; the series is being completed by Brandon Sanderson

Guy Gavriel Kay; another great author, is very good at interweaving stories with cultures inspired by historical Europe

Patricia Kennealy(-Morrison); she goes a bit overboard on the superiority of Celtic society (at least as she presents it), but her first duology and prequel (The Copper Crown, The Throne of Scone, and The Silver Branch) are enjoyable reads

Richard A. Knaak; in addition to the books he wrote for the Dragonlance setting, he has an original series (The Dragonrealm) of 10 books with some interesting takes on classic fantasy themes

Holly Lisle; the Arhel series (Fire in the Mist, Bones of the Past, Mind of the Magic) and The Secret Texts (Diplomacy of Wolves, Vengeance of Dragons, Courage of Falcons, Vincalis the Agitator) are highly recommended

Anne McCaffrey; the Harper Hall trilogy (Dragonsong, Dragonsinger, Dragondrums) is more likely to be accepted than the original Dragonriders of Pern trilogy (Dragonflight, Dragonquest, The White Dragon), the rest of the Pern novels either fill in backstory or continue the plotline of the above two trilogies; she also has several other series

Patricia McKillip; The Riddlemaster of Hed trilogy and The Forgotten Beasts of Eld are definitely worth reading

Elizabeth Moon; The Deed of Paksenarrion is very well done, one of the best treatments of paladins in modern fantasy

H. Beam Piper; you may not be able to find some of his stories, but his Terro-Human Future History stories (including Little Fuzzy, Fuzzy Sapiens, Fuzzies and Other People, and The Uller Uprising) and Paratime stories (including Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen) helped pioneer the alternate/future history genre

Christopher Stasheff; another author you may not be able to find, his early Warlock of Gramarye novels (plus Escape Velocity, which provides the backstory for the series) are good, although the books start to lose steam toward the end of the series; his A Wizard in Rhyme series is also good at the start, but loses steam even more quickly

David Webber; a very good writer of military space opera (such as his Honor Harrington series), he's very good at exploring the tactical and strategic implications of technology instead of just hand-waving it; he's also written three fantasy novels (Oath of Swords, The War God's Own, and Windrider's Oath) and several collaboration series (including one with Steve White set in the universe of the Starfire/Wing Commander computer games)

Janny Wurts; other than the Empire trilogy co-authored with Raymond Feist, she's in the middle of The Wars of Light and Shadow, an original series

Sovereign Court

Dragonchess Player wrote:
Raymond E. Feist; the Riftwar Saga is a good read and the Empire trilogy (co-written by Janny Wurts) is even better; his sequels are a bit harder to get into, IMOrn person transported to magical universe" trope with the person's mind being sent into a...

IMO, his SerpentWar Saga books were even better than the Riftwar stuff but I agree, everything else has been pretty disappointing although his latest books are picking up again.

The Exchange

James Jacobs wrote:

Welcome to the boards, Yucale! And I hope that folks drop in to chat! :-)

And for the record, I agree 100% with your observation about how a lot of gamers are pretty dense and unwelcoming to new gamers. I'm not sure why that attitude exists, but it does, and it frustrates me as well.

Ambushes JJ from behind at Paizocon striking repeatedly..."Damn Heretic!"

You know very well He didnt write anything after the Hobbit...

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