Heavy Crossbows: They still suck?


Advice

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Dabbler wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
The dmg comparison with a 'grooved' xbow is off, because such a thing doesn't exist in the game.
That's one of the points of this thread, to come up with proposals that make the crossbow 'not suck', and this was one of them. With a crossbow, you can (in theory) get Manyshot without the feat with just a little mechanical chicanery.

I gave a pretty strong build suggestion featuring crossbows several pages back which was oddly ignored. *shrug* That was too late though, when this turned into a a whole "medieval realism" thread, long after it turned from it's original purpose down a whole different path.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Stynkk wrote:
That's grand, but if Rob had half a brain he would be buying Bulls Strength potions and maintaining his hit.

One problem with that: a composite bow is crafted for a particular strength rating.

Quote:
All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can't effectively use it, so you take a -2 penalty on attacks with it... A composite [bow] can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow.

So, Rob could have a composite bow that lets him do an extra +2 damage per hit when he has a bull's strength effect active, but requires him to fire at a -2 penalty on attack rolls when not under the effect of bull's strength OR Rob has a composite bow that he can fire at no penalty in normal circumstances, but gains no benefit if Rob is under a bull's strength effect. Pick one.


I have long been disappointed with the game stats for Crossbows in general, and have been house-ruling their stats to better suit my perception of their capabilities since 1st edition AD&D. I saw a demonstration at a Renaissance festival some dozens of years ago and saw how a crossbow with a winch n' crank mechanism could launch a quarrel/bolt that would punch clean through an inch-thick block of plywood at a relatively short range (20-30 ft?) and would cleanly pierce quarter-inch iron plate by several inches. So their feeble stats in game seemed laughable to me. I wanted my players to recognize that if they were surrounded by the city guard and threatened with loaded crossbows and told to surrender that they should at least consider that option before deciding to get sassy.

In the current game system, aka Pathfinder RPG, I use the following house-rules... All crossbow ranges are halved. Both light and heavy crossbows are still considered simple weapons, but in the hands of a character who is either proficient in all martial weapons or who has spent a feat to learn Martial Weapon Proficiency: Crossbows I grant the crossbow a boost to damage as if the weapon were one size larger; i.e. a medium-sized light crossbow does 1d8 damage when wielded by a cleric or wizard, but a trained fighter does 2d6 damage with the same weapon, or 2d8 with a heavy crossbow. I have found that the slower rate of fire has not made the crossbow an overwhelmingly popular choice for my players, but the potentially higher damage brings enough appeal that players recognize the weapon for the threat it should be. Also though the increased damage is nice, I haven't found it to be game breaking in any way.

Feel free to adopt this house-rule or ignore it, as you prefer.

Liberty's Edge

When I build my fortress, I shall have a large contingent of low-level wizards and sorcerers in my guard. They shall each be armed with at least one heavy crossbow, and shall be expected to man the ballistas in my ballista towers. All of them will know the spell 'True Strike' and will be expected to memorize it (in the case of the wizards) at least twice every day they are on duty. That way, whenever there's trouble in or near my city, it will be struck with a hundred bolts of varying sizes.

Unseen servants will be available in all the towers and along the walls.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I'm suprised no one has mentioned the crossbow using fighter build in this thread from the APG!

==Aelryinth


First of, greetings to you all, I have been reading on the forum for some time, but this is going to be my first post so fare. Please excuse any bad English or grammar mistakes on my part.

A lot have been said in the previous posts, so I’m sorry if I don’t give credit where it should be given.

First of all I if we are to analyze the bow and crossbow in pathfinder and do them justice, we need to stick with the core books. For my part that will be the “Corerule Book” and the “Advance Players Guide”. Then we need to clarify the purpose of each weapon, and there main strengths and weakness’.

The bow:
Main purpose: High rate of fire
- The bow benefit greatly from a high base attack bonus combined with high dexterity and medium to high strength. This is due to the fact that we need a high bonus to hit, to make the third or fourth attack count, and strength for maximizing damage.
- To get the most out of a bow you need a full-attack. That means we become immobile.
- The mighty property of a bow means, that every time you change your strength score you need to get a NEW bow.
- The bow is great for dealing with both many and single opponents
- Damage reduction might be a problem, but usually not.
- Deflect arrow is not a problem due to high rate of fire.
- Ammunition should be a problem due to high rate of fire, but usually it is not (a lot of people forget to count or use efficient quiver)

Conclusion: we need to optimize both damage and to hit, to make every arrow count

The Crossbow:
Main purpose: One heavy shot,
- The crossbow benefits from but does not need a high base attack bonus, combined with a high dexterity and benefits greatly from a high intelligence (se later).
- We don’t need strength to deal damage effectively, that means we can be fine with a 10 or even 8. We can use the ability points in intelligence to gain both damage and skill points.
- We don’t need to change weapon every time our strength or intelligence score change modifiers.
- Deflect arrows is a problem due to one shot (sniping get around this)
- Damage reduction should only be a minor problem and usually not.
- Ammunition should not be a problem due to low rate of fire.
- Long reload time (repeating crossbow takes care of that)

Conclusion: we need to optimize damage on one shot, to hit should be fine.

Comment: I believe it to be a major mistake to try and fit the crossbow into the same main purpose as the bow, and that is exactly what is happening when we try to optimize it’s rate of fire with feats like rapid reload or crossbow mastery.

How then do we optimize the crossbow for damage on single shot? First, it has been suggested in previous post that we make the repeating crossbow large. That gives a mighty 2d8 damage (1d10 to 2d8) though we suffer -2 to hit penalty. Compared to deadly aim this is almost as good, deadly aim gives -1 to hit +2 damage, the large crossbow gives -1 to hit +1,75 average damage. We could do the same with the bow -1 to hit +1,5 average damage, though I am not sure it would be worth it, remember we want to hit with the additional attacks.

Two human fighter builds at level 6 using 25 point buy

I have not included critical hits in the following

Rob the archer
(don’t need to be human)
Str 16 +3
Dex 20 +5
Con 12 +1
Int 8 -1
Wis 12 +1
Cha 7 -2

Feats (total 8): point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, deadly aim, weapon focus, weapon specialization, many shot, one feat below 6-level

Special: weapon training +1

Weapon: Composite longbow mighty +3, +1 ench
To hit: 6bab + 5 dex + 1wf +1pbs +1wt +1 ench = 15 (11 with rapid shot and deadly aim)
Damage: 1d8 + 3str + 2ws +1wt +1pbs +1 ench +4 deadly aim = 1d8+12 average 16,5 dmg
Full attack: 11/11/6
Damage on full attack: 16,5x2/16,5/16,5

Will the x-man
(need to be human to get the extra feat)
Str 10 +0
Dex 20 +5
Con 12 +1
Int 16 +3
Wis 10 +0
Cha 7 -2

Feats (total 8): exotic weapon prof, point blank shot, precise shot, focus shot (apg) deadly aim, weapon focus, weapon specialization, vital strike

Special: weapon training +1

Weapon: Large heavy repeating crossbow +1 ench
To hit: 6bab + 5 dex + 1wf +1pbs +1wt +1 ench = 15 (11 due to large weapon, deadly aim)
Damage: 2d8 +2ws +1wt +1pbs +1ench +3 focus shot +4 deadly aim +2d8 vital strike = 4d8 +12 average 30 dmg
Single attack: 11 to hit 30 dmg.

Against a target AC for 13+level = 19

Will does (0,65*30) = 19,5

Rob does (0,65*16,5)x2 + (0,65*16,5) +(0,4*16,5) = 21,45 + 10,725 + 6,6 = 38,775 dmg

Rob does almost twice the damage of will, but use 4 arrows and a full attack action, there by losing mobility.

If damage reduction is factored in 10/-

Will does 13 dmg (30-10*0,65)

Rob does 8,45 + 4,225 +2,6 = 15,275 average dmg

The story of Rob and Will is a lot different, than told in previous posts.

If both Rob and Will are forced to take a move action every round, the history will change again, this time favoring the crossbow.
Will 19,5 dmg
Rob (0,75*16,5) = 12,375 (13 to hit, no rapid shot)

Final thoughts: the crossbow is a weapon best used by a character/classe who is moving around a lot or using the sniper ability.
A Rogue who want to be good a skills, and not subject to melee attacks, and still deal a nice amount of damage, could be a good candidate to use a crossbow and sniping, though they lack a lot of feats. Inquisitor, Fighter or Ranger might do this if they favorer mobility. Maybe an eldritch knight could use this weapon.

Many shot is definitely the most significant difference between the two weapons. Vital strike pales in comparison. No other feats in the game almost give an x2 critical hit every round. With rapid shot there is a sacrifice to get another attack -2 to hit. Many shot is in this example 16 extra damage.

Maybe optimizing the crossbows rate of fire is actually better…

Grand Lodge

for simplicity to reflect greater hitting power (and sort of balance stuff out as a lot of what is said about the advantages of bows to crossbows is sorta right) I just add +2 to damage... D8+2 or D10+2 hurts and guarentees some PUNCH to the hit... sure, pointy ears the elf archer can get off 2 shots but he may well roll 1's or 2's for damage... beardy the dwarven crossbowman gets off a big hit that is gonna hurt AND is more likely to beat DR and on criticals is gonna have a minimal hurt value of 6.


Helaman wrote:
for simplicity to reflect greater hitting power (and sort of balance stuff out as a lot of what is said about the advantages of bows to crossbows is sorta right) I just add +2 to damage... D8+2 or D10+2 hurts and guarentees some PUNCH to the hit... sure, pointy ears the elf archer can get off 2 shots but he may well roll 1's or 2's for damage... beardy the dwarven crossbowman gets off a big hit that is gonna hurt AND is more likely to beat DR and on criticals is gonna have a minimal hurt value of 6.

Compound bow.

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