I don't think anyone is advocating that. Let's assume he gets 3/4 base attack and bardlike casting. At 7th level, he'll just hit the ek wide open. Then you'll have something like: Magus8/EK10/F2 Base attack of 18, 6th level spells, greater weapon specialization by 20th level. If he has the option to cast spontaneously, you'll have Magus 7/DD4/ek9 Base attack 17, 6th level spells (with a few more per day and a caster level bump), weapon specialization, +4 strength, breath weapon, and +2 natural armor. Why make people jump through hoops? The existence of the ek will make it very hard to keep people in the magus class if he doesn't have full base attack. Which means he will have to have some broken class abilities to keep interest.
Ok - I think I've been following the logic (such as it is) reasonably well in this thread, but this takes the cake.
Let me see if I follow this logic -
1) If a Magus has 3/4 casting and bard spellcasting, people will want to get into EK as quickly as possible to get the full BAB.
2) This is so powerful that you would need "some broken class abilities" to keep people in the Magus class rather than switching out.
3) To prevent this powerful combo, we should instead *increase* the Magus to full BAB
Of course, since this hypothetical Magus class was used in the comparison build, doesn't increasing his BAB make him even more powerful?
I don't think anyone is advocating that. Let's assume he gets 3/4 base attack and bardlike casting. At 7th level, he'll just hit the ek wide open. Then you'll have something like: Magus8/EK10/F2 Base attack of 18, 6th level spells, greater weapon specialization by 20th level. If he has the option to cast spontaneously, you'll have Magus 7/DD4/ek9 Base attack 17, 6th level spells (with a few more per day and a caster level bump), weapon specialization, +4 strength, breath weapon, and +2 natural armor. Why make people jump through hoops? The existence of the ek will make it very hard to keep people in the magus class if he doesn't have full base attack. Which means he will have to have some broken class abilities to keep interest.Full caster and full BA is unnatural.
>drops Munchkin Grow Tabs tm<
I would suggest that that broken class abilities would not be necessary to keep interest in the magus class in that case. If the bard had proficiency with all martial weapons, I don't imagine there would be a lot of people just jumping straight into Eldritch Knight/Dragon Disciple just because they qualify for them. I'm pretty sure that those characters would lose out on a good chunk of abilities if they did so, especially the greater amount of bardic performance, the improved inspired courage, and ability to begin a performance as a swift action.
I believe that in a perfect world, some magi should have some reason to become eldritch knights so that they can focus more on improving their attacks at the cost of their other class abilities. They gain one thing, but lose something else like they do with almost all other prestige classes.
Watch out for munchkin poop.
Watch out for munchkin poop.
Oh, I gather it up for fertilizer. You can grow a real great crop of flame wars with enough of this, especially if you water it with whiney "numbers shouldn't mean anything, roleplaying without stats is teh awesome, and -pureist-" elitism.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I don't think anyone is advocating that. Let's assume he gets 3/4 base attack and bardlike casting. At 7th level, he'll just hit the ek wide open. Then you'll have something like: Magus8/EK10/F2 Base attack of 18, 6th level spells, greater weapon specialization by 20th level. If he has the option to cast spontaneously, you'll have Magus 7/DD4/ek9 Base attack 17, 6th level spells (with a few more per day and a caster level bump), weapon specialization, +4 strength, breath weapon, and +2 natural armor. Why make people jump through hoops? The existence of the ek will make it very hard to keep people in the magus class if he doesn't have full base attack. Which means he will have to have some broken class abilities to keep interest.Full caster and full BA is unnatural.
>drops Munchkin Grow Tabs tm<
I would suggest that that broken class abilities would not be necessary to keep interest in the magus class in that case. If the bard had proficiency with all martial weapons, I don't imagine there would be a lot of people just jumping straight into Eldritch Knight/Dragon Disciple just because they qualify for them. I'm pretty sure that those characters would lose out on a good chunk of abilities if they did so, especially the greater amount of bardic performance, the improved inspired courage, and ability to begin a performance as a swift action.
I believe that in a perfect world, some magi should have some reason to become eldritch knights so that they can focus more on improving their attacks at the cost of their other class abilities. They gain one thing, but lose something else like they do with almost all other prestige classes.
We don't know that the Magus would have all martial weapon proficiencies. It could have all simple, and any 3 martial, or something along those lines, so it wouldn't automatically qualify for an Eldritch Knight without multi-classing, just like any other character.
Nope Full BAB/D10 with abilities and spells is outright better then a fighter, ranger or paladin at level 1. There is no Usually to it.[
A D10 usually would be a half caster like the ranger and people would whine, hell people will whine anyhow if it's not better then a fighter and a wizard, so eh they will whine anyhow
:)
Spells =/= better
P.S. If I could make a signature for this forum it would be this right now.
Just why must it have full BAB and a d10? I keep hearing this but not sure why. It's a hybrid class. Not a straight warrior, it's a mix like the bard, alchemist, inquisitor and the like .
I am failing to see why it needs full BAB and a D10. If it had those items you pretty much made it have to be a half caster.
Just why does it need full BAB?
We have a battle bard variant coming which is 3/4 base attack. So we already have this type of combat/caster.
So only thing left is the full base attack and D10 hit die.
I will admit, I played a Duskblade and loved it. It was less powerful than my barbarian (3.5) but it was fun. I would love to see Paizo do a Pathfinder type of Duskblade, but with their own version on abilities.
I am not the only one who really like the Duskblade ether.
If it gains spells at level 1 with full BAB yes when the two other full BAB casting classes do not,Then yes it's broken.
He hasn't admitted that such a character with only spells like prestidigitation on his spell list is not broken, so he's not going to budge on this contention.Spells =/= better
Then there is no point in arguing with him as he is completely set in his ways.
If it gains spells at level 1 with full BAB yes when the two other full BAB casting classes do not,Then yes it's broken.
Can you prove that?
Probably not, he refuses to even consider it. Since the difference is all of a few points of attack bonus and earlier qualification for feats, the spell list is the make or break point.
I have been working on this little spell
Imbued Attack of (Energy Type; fire, electricity, cold, maybe sonic)
School evocation; Level magus 0
Casting Time 1 swift action
Components V, S
Range melee, close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect special
Duration 1 round
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
A rush of (energy type) rushes over your melee or ranged weapon. The spell effect can be added to any held weapon when the spell is casted. You must succeed on a melee or ranged attack with or without a weapon to deal damage to a target. The spell deals 1d6 points of (energy type) damage with +1 per 4 caster levels. Alternatively you may use this spell to create a weapon for the duration of the spell, but it does not benefit from an feats not focused toward the spell itself. This spell can be used as many times per round as they have attacks for that round. This damaged is multiplied with critical hits from the weapon it is on.
Honestly, how does this compare to 1 round use of barbarian rage?
A barbarian gets 4+int skills, and a D12 hit die. So 2+int skills, full base attack, and a D10 hit die is not unreasonable. A barbarian gets 9 rounds or rage with a 20 in their con, so a class could get 9 uses of this spell with a 20 in their casting stat and would be reasonably balanced.
P.S. So if I am correct you could about halve, or less, that amount of uses per day, and give him a bit more verity in effects, aka spells.
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Definitely agree Gandalf doesn't fit, although I've never gotten around to reading the books.
Garion was the best fit I could think of, even with his artifact sword. Obviously not Vancian magic, but a full caster nonetheless.
Oh, and Modesitt had his Saga of Recluse, with Order Mages usually having combat ability along with their magic. The Corellian Chronicles had a good number of Talented soldiers, but I don't know that I would call that full casting.
I think the order mages didn't really have the equivalent of full casting.
Garion is a good example but I would suggest that fiction is a poor place to compare because in fiction you don't have to balance the characters against other characters. If you have a guy who has ultimate power it's all ok.
Watch out for munchkin poop.
Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
We don't know that the Magus would have all martial weapon proficiencies. It could have all simple, and any 3 martial, or something along those lines, so it wouldn't automatically qualify for an Eldritch Knight without multi-classing, just like any other character.
Right, it is just one of the many things that are not revealed at the moment. The point of my comment was that, even if a character qualifies for a prestige class, it is not a given that the prestige class will improve that character's power.
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Let me spell it out for you, I'll go slow so you can follow it. If the magus does not have full bab, he will hit the ek for the attack bonus alone. If the magus already HAS full bab, there's no reason to go into the ek. To encourage someone NOT taking the ek at first opportunity, assuming he does not have a full bab, he'll have to have some VERY powerful abilities because NOTHING trumps base attack for a fighter/mage.
Why discourage them from taking EK? They take EK, they get full BAB, lose a level of spell progression and... ?? The sky falls?
I would assume there would be some non-casting class features that fall behind as well much as the wizard loses progression with non-casting features. Worse case scenario you have an eldritch knight with slightly higher BAB, armored casting, and slower spell progression. I'm just missing how this is terrible.
Edit: Keep in mind that I don't see a lot of bards going the route of Eldritch Knight so your core argument is pretty weak.
Bards rarely go EK. Good point, which only goes to show that it ain't all about the BA and spells. Those skill points and class abilities are definitely significant to the balancing act.
I think stripping a bard of its class abilities and skills while giving it different spell selection options and then saying, "Whamo! There is your magus.", is a bit silly. In that case, the class would be significant weaker than the bard. Now roll that in your mouth a couple of times, "Significantly weaker than the bard." Really? That is the build people are pushing.
If you want a bard build then you need to give it equivalent features all around. BA/HD and spell progression isn't going to cut it. You need to also give them 6+INT skills. And class features on par with bardic abilities.
I think asking for 2/3 casting and full BA/HD and that's about it is actually pretty weak of a demand. The bard is going to blow the character out of the water in most situations that are not toe-to-toe swingfests.
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And he should. But going toe to toe is not the bard's schtick. It should be for a fighter/mage class. Full bab, 6th level spells, that's all I care about. I'd like to see some other abilities for flavor, but not necessary powerful ones. Something to make the class stand out, but certainly not throwing chain lightning in conjunction with a full attack.I think asking for 2/3 casting and full BA/HD and that's about it is actually pretty weak of a demand. The bard is going to blow the character out of the water in most situations that are not toe-to-toe swingfests.
What if the lightning was stuck in his weapon, and with Cleave, acted just like it would normally? The first target would get the weapon damage and the full effect of the spell(with a Saving Throw, as normal), and the next guy he hits(so he can keep using the Chain Lightning) takes the weapon damage and half the damage from the lightning(with a Saving Throw for only a quarter of the normal damage) and so on?
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Bards are a completely different animal. A bard can't get chain lightning through the ek. He loses most of his class abilities. A fighter mage has two core abilities: Fighting and casting spells, he's not really gonna lose any of those by hitting the ek.
Which is incidentally exactly the sort of combination which suggests the combo is too powerful and exactly the opposite of what ToZ "All prestidigitation" is suggesting to justify full BAB is ok.
As to why discourage him, you don't need to discourage him for any sort of balance, but if the ek is always a better option after 7 or 8 levels, there's really no point in the magus class at all. I understand Paizo will try and give the magus other abilities to round out the class, but honestly, all some of us want to see is full base attack and bardlike casting (with a different spell list). I'm indifferent on the d10 hd.
Why would you stick with magus? Turn that around, why would you jump to EK. You've already lost 2 on your BAB at 7th level, you aren't getting that final iterative attack. You also lose a caster level and progression in whatever class abilities you have other than casting. Seems like a net loss to me.
Overall if players are looking to EK as a power up from this class it will most likely disappoint.
I'd like to see a Full BAB, 1d10 HD, Good Will, 6 level caster, but with more spells per day than the bard.
I would like to see it NOT use weapons, but rely on spells for melee and ranged combat. Kind of a Spell-using Monk, but instead of unarmed strikes, they use spells or summoned weapons/effects (I'm kind of picturing a light-saber-like staff or glaive with reach, but no handle).
I'd like most (or many) of the spells to be Swift Action/1 round buffs, focusing on single target damage, mobility, target acquisition (darkvision/see invis/true seeing), and some close range multi-target spells.
I would LOVE if they were the masters of Combat Maneuvers, including ranged and/or reach Combat Manuevers. I think it would be neat if they could deliver "touch" spells with reach.
If they don't get increased spells per day (or even if they do), I think it would be neat of they got "Hex-like" supernatural abilities they could use at will. Maybe "Auras" that affect adjacent opponents or terrain (penalties to attacks, saves, AC; damage per round; difficult terrain/spike stone terrain; darkness/mist; random teleporting aura; stuff like that).
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I think the Medium base attack progression is fine. Maybe allow access to fighter feats like greater weapon focus, albeit at a slower right.
I don't see why the d10 is such a big hang up for people though. Picking up Toughness as a feat or maybe even including it as a bonus feat doesn't seem so bad. Maybe I'm missing something.
Bard spell progression (not spell list) seems fine with me as well.
I guess I've looked and playtested the Inquisitor core class and I don't understand why people are so up in arms about certain things like full BAB and d10's and etc etc. The Inquisitor works great and is a lot of fun to play, while still doing just fine in melee combat. Guess we all have our thing though
I'd personally like to see the Magus take on aspects of the Arcane Archer myself. I had actually been using the Arcane Archer, albeit tweaked, as a baseline for some melee homebrewed stuff. Make it capable as a Magus levels to add their own quick enchantments to a weapon. A Magus could be capable of adding similar properties to their weapons such as frost, flame, icy touch, speed, and maybe UP TO brilliant energy (an ability I hate as it seems to have zero use against undead AND always felt awkward to me. How do you parry with it since it passes through all nonorganic stuff. Iono).
I'd also like to see them gain some magical tied abilities like once or twice a day being able to reflect any spell targeted at them back onto the one who cast it. And personally, I'd much prefer the Magus be Charisma based over Intelligence. Casting spells like a bard and a sorc instead of a wizard.
One thing I can agree on is I'm not super thrilled with the name. Magus sounds entirely magey too me. Then again, I thought Gish sounded stupid so it's an upgrade.
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I'd like to see a Full BAB, 1d10 HD, Good Will, 6 level caster, but with more spells per day than the bard.
I would like to see it NOT use weapons, but rely on spells for melee and ranged combat. Kind of a Spell-using Monk, but instead of unarmed strikes, they use spells or summoned weapons/effects (I'm kind of picturing a light-saber-like staff or glaive with reach, but no handle).
This is what I love about this class is everyone has clear expectations about the class and they all disagree.
*grin* just imagine the ideas we're giving the staff. =3
*grin* just imagine the ideas we're giving the staff. =3
That they wish they could take the announcement back :)
*grin* just imagine the ideas we're giving the staff. =3
That they have decided to never make this class? I said it earlier, but the developers are going to have a really rough time pleasing this crowd (including myself). There are so many ideas about what the magus should do and how it should do it that many people are going to be disappointed. Unless they develop a "build your own magus" mechanic :)
Another idea . . . this one stolen from Final Fantasy XI (Ninja/Red Mage) :) It would be cool if the magus could work with the party wizard/sorcerer while in combat. What I have in mind is give the magus the ability to make a target susceptible to a certain type of damage, then the sorcerer can nuke with that particular energy. The magus can pick one type of energy when he memorizes his spells and when he makes a successful melee touch attack the target takes 1d6 energy X damage and has susceptibility Y to that type of energy for Z rounds. It would be a nice tandem feature if the magus could empower his blade with different types of energy. Have this damage do an additional 1d6 (possibly 1d4) like sneak attack, but don't have it increase quite as rapidly. If they had some abilities like this I would support 3/4 and d8. I'd still be a little disappointed that I couldn't make an arcane tank, though :)
If it gains spells at level 1 with full BAB yes when the two other full BAB casting classes do not,Then yes it's broken.
Really? So spells>all no matter what those spells are?
A fighter gets a bonus feat, barbarian gets rage, ranger gets favored enemy and track, paladin gets smite. Are you saying that being able to cast prestidigitation at will is >smite? Let's be rational though, I'm going to make an assumption that the Magus might get Enlarge Person and True Strike as his 2 castable spells at first level (using the spontaneous/bard model for spells). Is being able to cast Enlarge Person >>>>>> having both PA and Cleave, or PBS and Precise Shot, or +2hit/+3 damage (rage) half of the combat day, or smite, etc etc. Really? Do you really believe that? Spells>=no spells, not necessarily, it depends what spells and what they are used for.What if the Barbarian was able to cast the Rage spell on himself instead of the Rage ability? Would it be overpowered JUST because it is a spell?
Look at it from the other end. Would you, as a wizard at 17th level, give up your 9th, 8th, and 7th level spells for extra BAB? Poppycock. Would a CL 17/BAB 16 character give up 3 entire levels of his most powerful spells for a piddly +4 on his attacks? No, it would be trading gold for gooseberries, but that's what we're asking for. A suboptimal option but you STILL want to nerf it because spells>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>e verything else to you, no matter what the spells are or what the everything else is.
Earlier, you used the fact that EK took 7 levels to get into as a reason for the Magus to be underpowered. EK is underpowered therefore Magus must be? This is intellectually dishonest as the entire point of the Magus is to fill the niche of an EK from level 1 up which is the most common complaint about it.
You have to weigh all factors, which you most certainly are not doing with statements like the above.
Absolutely. Base attack +20 and caster level 14 (7th level spells)? That's more than anyone has been suggesting. The biggest thing missing here is 2 points off arcane strike, but I guess 7th level spells (as opposed to 6th) would be worth it. I'd rather have a cl of 20 and 6th level spells, though.
Would a CL 17/BAB 16 character give up 3 entire levels of his most powerful spells for a piddly +4 on his attacks?
No no. I said 3 levels of spells, not 3 caster levels. As in would they give up 6 caster levels for a +4 on all attacks? 11th level caster, 6th level spells. And remember for this 20th level EK he already has 4 attacks/round so you're literally just getting +4 to attacks...at the expense of all 9th, 8th, and 7th level spells. You'd really do that?
The same reason the ranger, paladin, and barbarian do. They are warrior classes first and foremost, so should the magus be.Why, oh why does it need full bab?
why oh why does it need full BAB?
Points out those casters in that group have half casting and uses non arcane spells Your comparing apples to oranges here
I came up with a concept that is kind of like a monk/warlock/witch. It's probably a little bit too powerful; might have to change the BAB to +3/4 and HD to 1d8....
BAB: +1
Good Saves: Will
Hit Dice: 1d10
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Appraise, Climb, Craft, Knowledge arcana, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Swim.
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Intelligence modifier.
A Magus is proficient in all Simple Weapons and his Magic Staff. A Magus is not proficient in any armor or shields.
A Magus casts arcane spells using the Bard’s Spells Per Day and Bard’s Spells Known tables. A Magus must have a Wisdom score of 10 + the spell level to know or cast a spell. The Save DC of a Magus’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Magus’s Wisdom modifier. A Magus gets bonus spells based on Wisdom. The Magus learns spells from the list of Magus spells.
LEVEL ABILITY
1. Aura, Cantrips, Magic Staff 1d6, Unarmored Defense
2. Aura
3. Staff Power
4. +1 AC, Aura
5. Magic Staff 2d6
6. Aura
7. Staff Power
8. +2 AC, Aura, Improved Auras
9. Magic Staff 3d6
10. Aura
11. Staff Power
12. +3 AC, Aura
13. Magic Staff 4d6
14. Aura, Greater Auras
15. Staff Power
16. +4 AC, Aura
17. Magic Staff 5d6
18. Aura
19. Staff Power
20. +5 AC, Aura, Ultimate Aura
Aura (Su). At 1st level, the Magus learns 1 aura. At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, the Magus learns an additional aura. At 8th level, he can begin selecting Improved Auras. At 14th level, he can begin selecting Greater Auras. At 20th level, he learns an Ultimate Aura. An Aura is a magical effect that targets all creatures adjacent to or touching the Magus. A Magus can activate an aura as a free action and deactivate it as a free action. Unless otherwise stated, a Magus can only have a single Aura activated at one time. The Save DC of an Aura is 10 + ½ the Magus’s level + his Wisdom modifier.
Cantrips (Sp). The Magus learns a number of 0-level arcane spells that he can cast at will. These are selected from the list of Magus spells.
Magic Staff (Sp). As a swift action, the Magus can summon a magical staff that deals bludgeoning damage and lasts a number of rounds equal to the Magus‘s Wisdom bonus (minimum 1 round). The Magic Staff makes touch attacks and has a threat and critical range of 20/x2. It initially does 1d6 points of damage; this increases by 1d6 at 5th level and every 4 levels thereafter. The Magic Staff is immaterial and weightless and the Magus does not add his Strength bonus to damage. The Magus can deliver touch spells through his Magic Staff.
Unarmored Defense (Ex). The Magus adds his Wisdom bonus, if any, to his AC if he is unarmored and carrying a light load or less. This bonus applies to his touch AC and even when the Magus is flatfooted; it does not apply if the Magus is helpless or immobilized. This bonus to his AC increases by +1 at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter.
Staff Power (Sp). At 3rd level, and every 4 levels beyond 3rd, the Magus can choose one of the following abilities and apply it to his Magic Staff.
Double Staff. The Magus’s Magic Staff can be used as a double weapon. The Magus gains the use of the Two Weapon Fighting feat when using his Magic Staff. At 6th level, he gains the use of the Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat when using his Magic Staff. At 11th level, he gains the use of the Greater Two Weapon Fighting feat when using his Magic Staff.
Flashing Staff. The Magus can throw his Magic Staff as if it were a javelin, making a ranged touch attack. Once it leaves his hand, the Magic Staff disappears after 1 round.
Heart Staff. The Magus’s Magic Staff bypasses DR as if it had the Magus’s alignment.
Piercing Staff. The Magus’s Magic Staff causes piercing damage and has a critical multiplier of x3.
Quick Staff. The Magus can summon his Magic Staff as a free action or an immediate action.
Reach Staff. The Magus’s Magic Staff’s reach increases by 5 feet.
Shaft of Moonlight. The Magus’s Magic Staff bypasses DR as if it were made of Silver.
Slashing Staff. The Magus’s Magic Staff causes slashing damage and has a threat range of 19-20.
Staff of the Earth’s Shadow. The Magus’s Magic Staff bypasses DR as if it were made of Cold Iron.
Starlight Staff. The Magus’s Magic Staff bypasses DR as if it were made of adamantine. The Magus must be at least 11th level before selecting this power.
Sunray Staff. The Magus can deliver ranged touch spells through his Magic Staff with a melee touch attack.
Wise Warrior. The Magus adds his Wisdom bonus to his attack and damage rolls with his Magic Staff. He also adds his Wisdom bonus to his CMB and CMD when using his Magic Staff.
Auras.
Aura of Sadness. -2 to Attack Rolls, Saving Throws, and Skill Checks.
Aura of Shadows. 20% miss chance to target the Magus and the Magus gains a bonus equal to his level on Stealth checks.
Aura of Shifting Stones. Adjacent squares are considered difficult terrain and the Magus benefits from flawless stride.
Improved Auras.
Aura of the Sun. Adjacent creatures take 2d6 points of fire damage each round. The Magus’s weapons deal +1d6 points of fire damage, and he gains fire resistance 20.
Aura of Ice and Snow. Adjacent creatures take 1d6 points of cold damage and must make a Reflex Save or fall prone. The Magus’s weapons deal +1d6 points of cold damage, and he gains cold resistance 20.
Aura of Creeping Growths. Adjacent creatures are entangled.
Greater Auras.
Aura of Corruption. Adjacent creatures take 2d6 points of acid damage each round and must make a Fortitude save or become nauseated for 1 round (sickened on a successful save). The Magus’s weapons deal +1d6 points of acid damage and the Magus gains acid resistance 30.
Aura of Repulsion. Adjacent creatures are subjected to a bull rush with a CMB equal to the Magus’s level + his Wisdom modifier. The Magus gains a deflection bonus to his AC equal to his Charisma bonus.
Aura of True Night. The Magus is totally obscured by magical darkness, granting him total concealment. The Magus gains the ability to see through magical and non-magical darkness.
Ultimate Auras.
Aura of the Diamond. Any weapon striking the Magus takes damage equal to his class level + his Wisdom bonus that bypasses any hardness of 20 or less. If this destroys the weapon, the Magus takes no damage. Creatures adjacent to the Magus take 5d6 points of damage from spinning blades of force (Reflex for half).
Aura of Scattered Foes. All adjacent creatures are teleported 20 feet away and must make a Reflex save or become prone.
Aura of the Vampire. All adjacent creatures gain a negative level each round. The Magus gains 5 hit points for each negative level bestowed. Temporary hit points above his maximum disappear after 1 hour.
This class should not ALWAYS be better than fighter. It should be as good sometimes.
I disagree. This class should always be as good as a fighter. Just as a Paladin, Ranger and Barbarian are always as good as a fighter. They all have different abilities and different methods of doing things, but as far as I am concerned they are all equal. The magus should introduce yet another method of being formidable in a melee, but be just as viable as the fighter. After all the fighter is not threatened by the ranger, barbarian, and paladin so adding yet another option should not make the fighter superfluous. The class should not be better than a fighter, nor as good as a fighter and as a wizard.
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I disagree. This class should always be as good as a fighter. Just as a Paladin, Ranger and Barbarian are always as good as a fighter. They all have different abilities and different methods of doing things, but as far as I am concerned they are all equal. The magus should introduce yet another method of being formidable in a melee, but be just as viable as the fighter. After all the fighter is not threatened by the ranger, barbarian, and paladin so adding yet another option should not make the fighter superfluous. The class should not be better than a fighter, nor as good as a fighter and as a wizard.
This class should not ALWAYS be better than fighter. It should be as good sometimes.
Wow, spectacular job pulling a quote from it's context and dissecting it out of context. The question is did you deliberately ignore the point being made or did you just read the post differently than I did?