Ultimate Magic speculation


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Dark Archive

At PaizoCon this weekend, Erik Mona confirmed during his talk at the Advanced Player's Guide Banquet that spring 2011 would bring with it a new book called Ultimate Magic that would contain exactly one new base class, the weapon-wielding arcanist known as the Magus, but would also contain tons of new spells and feats for spellcasters of all stripes, as well as an alternate magic system for use with Pathfinder. What sort of things are people expecting or hoping to come out of this product? What are the most important aspects of a book like this, do people think?

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This sounds great, plus the magus may fill a certain style of playing that pops up in my game :)

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 4

I really like the idea of alternate magic systems. Magic is such a core feature to D&D that changing how players have access to it would really give your game a different flavor. If it's totally botched up (I doubt) it's not like we don't have the normal version or anything.


I wish they would have named the book Advanced Magic instead of Ultimate Magic. Seems like it would have fit in better with their product line, like with the Advanced Player's Guide.

Or maybe they wanna make an Ultimate class line of books... Ultimate Fighter anyone?...


You know, I agree. Advanced Magic sounds better than Ultimate magic. Plus it helps newer players gauge which books they should buy first (the core ones) and when they've gotten a grasp of the rules, they go and get the "advanced" series of books.


Grimoire!

No seriously though, I desperately want a book that doesn't apologize for or re-write Vancian magic. I hope this can be that book.

EDIT: More to say on this. I've been thinking about this a lot lately, in light of the Bestiary and the GMG. I want a book that celebrates the quirks of the existing system, and tries to contextualize the unique magic system of Pathfinder rather than trying to make it fit people's pre-conceptions of how magic should work.

Wizards and Clerics and Sorcerers must understand that they have specific numbers of spells they can cast, that spells are segregated into 9 levels, etc. These are observable phenomena in the game world. They must also understand that a spell is not a skill but a formula that creates a thing that is a spell — and they must know what initiations divide the true practitioners from the imitators who go through the motions but cannot create a spell (instead relying on wards, scrolls and fakery).

Many think the system is "gamist" but I see a logical and esoteric system involving actual formulae that alter reality. That's magical! A book that looks at the observable phenomena in the game world and gives players a context for how magic works would enhance the whole game experience — most especially for new players to whom spell points and mana bars are the status quo.

The main reason people dislike the Vancian system is its utter lack of context. They're prepared to accept less nuanced systems like spell points because they've been exposed to those.

This is hardly the last rant you will all have to endure from me on this subject. Heartfelt apologies in advance.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Maybe a system where you spend skill points for spells known?

Maybe a system where you don't have spells per day, but have to make an ever increasing Spellcraft skill check to cast a spell?

Maybe a system where spellcasters roll to see how powerful their spells are? Roll for Caster Level? Roll for Save DC? Roll for Metamagic effects?

Maybe a system that lets spellcasters use spells as spell-like abilities and/or supernatural abilities?

Maybe a system of ritual magic that uses Knowledge checks and Aid Another actions to cast the spells?


All I want is a name for the class other than Magus. Seriously freaking horrible, bland, and redundant name. It makes me cry.

Liberty's Edge

meatrace wrote:
All I want is a name for the class other than Magus. Seriously freaking horrible, bland, and redundant name. It makes me cry.

The only reason I like it is because of "Magus" from chrono trigger, who was pretty much exactly a "gish".

I'd probably call him most similar to a Fighter/Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight (sorcerer came first) with a specialization in Scythes and Evocation (practical) but researches heavily into a single Conjuration spell (for summoning lavos to destroy him).

Dark Archive

meatrace wrote:
All I want is a name for the class other than Magus. Seriously freaking horrible, bland, and redundant name. It makes me cry.

It's no worse than Anti-paladin ;)


Bruno Kristensen wrote:
meatrace wrote:
All I want is a name for the class other than Magus. Seriously freaking horrible, bland, and redundant name. It makes me cry.
It's no worse than Anti-paladin ;)

I never liked that either. But I did like the alignment specific paladin classes they did in Dragon magazine a few years back. Those all rocked. Wish they'd do that!

Dark Archive

meatrace wrote:
Bruno Kristensen wrote:
meatrace wrote:
All I want is a name for the class other than Magus. Seriously freaking horrible, bland, and redundant name. It makes me cry.
It's no worse than Anti-paladin ;)
I never liked that either. But I did like the alignment specific paladin classes they did in Dragon magazine a few years back. Those all rocked. Wish they'd do that!

Ummm... APG? It is supposed to have rules for playing alternate alignment paladins. I think they said specific rules for CE and more general rules for the other alignments.

Dark Archive

I just read the posting on MC World of Darkness, which Sean co-wrote. He seems very proud/happy with the magic system they came up with. Do people think the new magic system in the Ultimate Magic book might be based on his work with Monte?


Bruno Kristensen wrote:
meatrace wrote:
All I want is a name for the class other than Magus. Seriously freaking horrible, bland, and redundant name. It makes me cry.
It's no worse than Anti-paladin ;)

Yes it is, anti-paladin actually gives you an idea of what the class does, magus does not.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

SmiloDan wrote:

Maybe a system where you spend skill points for spells known?

Maybe a system where you don't have spells per day, but have to make an ever increasing Spellcraft skill check to cast a spell?

Maybe a system where spellcasters roll to see how powerful their spells are? Roll for Caster Level? Roll for Save DC? Roll for Metamagic effects?

Maybe a system that lets spellcasters use spells as spell-like abilities and/or supernatural abilities?

Maybe a system of ritual magic that uses Knowledge checks and Aid Another actions to cast the spells?

At the banquet, Erik said that the UM book would include JB designing a magic system called "words of power" that revolved around "building spells on the fly" or something of the sort. How it would work, who knows?

Liberty's Edge

Jason Nelson wrote:

At the banquet, Erik said that the UM book would include JB designing a magic system called "words of power" that revolved around "building spells on the fly" or something of the sort. How it would work, who knows?

Reminds me a lot of Ars Magica

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Anything that reminds Ars Magica gets a big plus in my books. ArM is the best RPG setting with the best magic system, ever.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Jason Nelson wrote:
At the banquet, Erik said that the UM book would include JB designing a magic system called "words of power" that revolved around "building spells on the fly" or something of the sort. How it would work, who knows?

An optional, improvisational Ars-Magica-ish spell system for PRPG?

This is almost as awesome news as finding out that A Game of Thrones made it to series on HBO. Too. Much. Win!

Shadow Lodge

lordzack wrote:
Bruno Kristensen wrote:
meatrace wrote:
All I want is a name for the class other than Magus. Seriously freaking horrible, bland, and redundant name. It makes me cry.
It's no worse than Anti-paladin ;)
Yes it is, anti-paladin actually gives you an idea of what the class does, magus does not.

Defining something by it's opposite is rather inane, in my opinion.

Dark Archive

Jason Nelson wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:

Maybe a system where you spend skill points for spells known?

Maybe a system where you don't have spells per day, but have to make an ever increasing Spellcraft skill check to cast a spell?

Maybe a system where spellcasters roll to see how powerful their spells are? Roll for Caster Level? Roll for Save DC? Roll for Metamagic effects?

Maybe a system that lets spellcasters use spells as spell-like abilities and/or supernatural abilities?

Maybe a system of ritual magic that uses Knowledge checks and Aid Another actions to cast the spells?

At the banquet, Erik said that the UM book would include JB designing a magic system called "words of power" that revolved around "building spells on the fly" or something of the sort. How it would work, who knows?

That kind of sounds like what SKR did with Cooke... Check out SKR's posts in this thread. Not that they will be the same, but they seem to be based on some of the same philosophies.

Dark Archive

Jason Nelson wrote:
At the banquet, Erik said that the UM book would include JB designing a magic system called "words of power" that revolved around "building spells on the fly" or something of the sort. How it would work, who knows?

Oh, that sounds HOT!


Kthulhu wrote:
lordzack wrote:
Bruno Kristensen wrote:
meatrace wrote:
All I want is a name for the class other than Magus. Seriously freaking horrible, bland, and redundant name. It makes me cry.
It's no worse than Anti-paladin ;)
Yes it is, anti-paladin actually gives you an idea of what the class does, magus does not.
Defining something by it's opposite is rather inane, in my opinion.

So we should come up with a different name for anti-matter? Or what about counter-clockwise? An "anti-paladin" is the perfect name for the concept. I personally am not sure I like the concept in the first place, but if you have a class which like basically "like a paladin, but evil" why not call it an anti-paladin? Of course "blackguard" also works and isn't an "anti" name, so...

Regardless "anti-paladin", inane or no is still a better name for it's class then "magus" is for a fighting mage by virtue of actually having something to do with the concept.


eh Magus says right off the bat "I am a caster of some type" which is a close as ya are ever gonna get with a real world word.


But "Magus" could be any kind of spellcaster, and certainly doesn't invoke a guy that uses weapons to me. "Magus" makes me think of a frail old guy in robes.


No word invokes both. You get the magic part so you know he is some type of caster. They needed to get across he was a caster and no word means caster that can fight.

Dark Archive

Would you rather call him "Indecisive"? It fits the concept.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

lordzack wrote:
But "Magus" could be any kind of spellcaster, and certainly doesn't invoke a guy that uses weapons to me. "Magus" makes me think of a frail old guy in robes.

+1. Magus makes me think of the 3 Wise Men.

Dark Archive

Draeke Raefel wrote:
Would you rather call him "Indecisive"? It fits the concept.

He's the Osmond. A little bit country, a little bit rock and roll.

He might hit you with his sword, he might hit you with a spell. He swings both ways. He's Bismacksual!

Dark Archive

The black raven wrote:
Jason Nelson wrote:

At the banquet, Erik said that the UM book would include JB designing a magic system called "words of power" that revolved around "building spells on the fly" or something of the sort. How it would work, who knows?

Reminds me a lot of Ars Magica

Started with the Magus - not from chrono trigger, but from Ars Magica.

Check Lisa's background and involvement in that game. It's starting to make more sense.

I specifically don't like the name due to the connection with Ars. Unless the PC class is more magic oriented with little swordplay and light armor the name doesn't fit, just another name for wizard really.

I think this name was at the top of their list for a long time, that little contest was nothing more than show.

So we will get the Magus character in a new book, which also may feature a "words of power" style magic system?
Lol


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
eh Magus says right off the bat "I am a caster of some type" which is a close as ya are ever gonna get with a real world word.

Other than Caster or Spellcaster or Mage or Warlock or Channeler or Stabracadabra, or Harry Potter or Spellthane (or any of a million compound nonsense words).

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
meatrace wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
eh Magus says right off the bat "I am a caster of some type" which is a close as ya are ever gonna get with a real world word.
Other than Caster or Spellcaster or Mage or Warlock or Channeler or Stabracadabra, or Harry Potter or Spellthane (or any of a million compound nonsense words).

There were some really good suggestions over in the rename-the-gish thread, such as "Harbinger" and "Warder" (my favorites).

"Magus" would be an awesome name for a dedicated words-of-power improvisational caster class. And I'm not just saying that because that is what they call them in Ars Magica.


meatrace wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
eh Magus says right off the bat "I am a caster of some type" which is a close as ya are ever gonna get with a real world word.
Other than Caster or Spellcaster or Mage or Warlock or Channeler or Stabracadabra, or Harry Potter or Spellthane (or any of a million compound nonsense words).

]

Well first we had to deal with one word, not twowards or made up words so that puts Stabracadabra,Harry Potter and Spellthane out.

Caster is too generic a term and means well a caster, same with spell caster. Warlock is a liar an oathbreaker and screams "I'm evil". Channeler might work but seems to deal with how he casts spells. A Mage is a term used for wizards while Mague is not a term often used for wizards.

It has a couple good points for it.
1: Off the bat ya know it;'s a caster
2: It's not used in game yet and is not a word often used to stand in for another class "such as mage"

I'll be clear it was not even in my top 10 choices but it can fit and no word means "spellcaster who stabs folks with a weapon while casting spells". I am just glad they didn't use warlock


They had initially indicated that the APG would have the Templar which was a Paladin of any non-LG or CE alignment. I heard it got cut from the APG. Any chance for it here? Paladins use magic no?

Contributor

We're not ready to start talking about Ultimate Magic yet.


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
We're not ready to start talking about Ultimate Magic yet.

That's cool. We'll just rampantly speculate.

Rumor is there's a new class called a Witchalok that puts wizards and fighters both to shame, and can use Wish as a SLA at level 1!


1. Ultimate Magic sounds like a Hero system book. This is probably not a good thing from a branding POV.
2. It seems to me that Eldritch Knight already fills the proposed niche for the magus, but I'm interesting in seeing what Paizo comes up with.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Let's just call it Complete Magic ... oh, wait.

Dark Archive

If it was old-school, they could call it 'Compleat Magic,' like those old Bard Games 'third-party' books that would come out during 1st edition. I loved the Compleat Alchemist!


Gorbacz wrote:
Let's just call it Complete Magic ... oh, wait.

I think whomever said Advanced Magic had it right. Fits nicely in with the APG.

Scarab Sages Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
We're not ready to start talking about Ultimate Magic yet.

Indeed. The bit about words of power and the magus that Erik mentioned at the banquet is pretty much the only thing that's been revealed thus far.

Other than that the book is about magic. And that it's going to be ULTIMATE!!! :)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jason Nelson wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
We're not ready to start talking about Ultimate Magic yet.

Indeed. The bit about words of power and the magus that Erik mentioned at the banquet is pretty much the only thing that's been revealed thus far.

Other than that the book is about magic. And that it's going to be ULTIMATE!!! :)

If you guys are channelling 90s, why not just call it EXXXTREME MAGICKS, get some cover art from Rob Liefeld and be done with it ? :)


If my name is there (well nickname) I'll be happy :)


Gorbacz wrote:
<SNIP>why not just call it EXXXTREME MAGICKS, get some cover art from Rob Liefeld and be done with it ? :)</SNIP>

Isn't that XXXTREME?

P.S. I hate you. ;)

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
We're not ready to start talking about Ultimate Magic yet.

What like fight club?


more spells, and magic stuff, and some class.

Liberty's Edge

Gorbacz wrote:
<SNIP>why not just call it EXXXTREME MAGICKS, get some cover art from Rob Liefeld and be done with it ? :)</SNIP>

Do I really have to be the one to point out the effect those three Xs have on the meaning of that book?

Spoiler:

I mean, the charts on uses of Mage Hand alone would make zealous religious folk burn the thing! And that doesn't even begin to cover things like Grease or the cleaning applications of Prestidigitation.

There's also Hold Portal when privacy is hard to find.
Some creative women might require that their mates cast True Strike so that they can't claim they "missed".
Unseen servant for when you need a little extra help.
Disguise self for the "coyote ugly" types.
Animate rope for the kinky ones (no risk of getting trapped!).
Summon Monster I or Mount for the REALLY kinky types.
Enlarge/reduce to resolve "size" problems.
Erase can help with those pesky tattoos of old flames.
And in the morning? Expeditious retreat.

Of course, there we always be the roofie-using types that'll resort to spells like "sleep", "charm person", et al.
And you always need to be absolutely sure you WANT to know when you cast "Comprehend Languages".

And I never had to leave 1st level!


Spoiler:
explosive runes


Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
and some class.

Hey, hey! A little more respect with that class dude, it's got an AWESOME name! :)


StabbittyDoom wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
<SNIP>why not just call it EXXXTREME MAGICKS, get some cover art from Rob Liefeld and be done with it ? :)</SNIP>

Do I really have to be the one to point out the effect those three Xs have on the meaning of that book?

** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **

HAHAHAHAHA, AWESOME!


DitheringFool wrote:
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
We're not ready to start talking about Ultimate Magic yet.
What like fight club?

we don't talkabout that


Some speculation about the Magus:

-maybe he will have medium BAB progression
-maybe he will have spells like a Bard (max 6th level spells)
-maybe he will at some point get "still spell" metamagic for free, so he can wear armor without problems
-maybe he will have some class abilities concerning action economy; maybe at some point he can, as a full-round action, make one attack and cast one lower-level spell
-maybe he will have his own spell list
-maybe he will have proficiency with all martial weapons and medium armor

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