Sunbeam - is "blinded" condition permanent?


Rules Questions


As per Sunbeam spell description, all opponents, who fail Reflex save are blinded.

Spell description does not specify duration of the condition, however:
DURATION
Subjects, Effects, and Areas: If the spell affects creatures directly, the result travels with the subjects for the spell's duration. If the spell creates an effect, the effect lasts for the duration. The effect might move or remain still. Such an effect can be destroyed prior to when its duration ends. If the spell affects an area, then the spell stays with that area for its duration.

So, the question here is:
- does the blindness go away at the end of spell duration?
- if so, does that mean that the last round use of the spell will result in a blindness lasting only a single round?

Regards,
Ruemere


As with the Sunburst spell I would treat the target who failed their save as being permanently Blinded.


REading the spell description, the targets are blinded for the duration of the spell.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Yup, creatures are blinded for the duration of the spell, which is:

1 round/level or until all beams are exhausted

So I'd hold onto that last beam until near the 1 round/level duration and then unleash that last beam.


So, wait, lemme get this straight.

If I'm an 18th level druid and cast this spell, and I fire off 6 beams of light in 6 rounds, that last beam might blind my target for, what, zero rounds? But if I only fire 5 beams and save the last beam, then my last beam (beam #5) will blind a target for 13 rounds?

This is the logic that's being suggested here? That somehow using only some of your beams make the blindess much more intense than using all of your beams?

I don't buy it. It doesn't make sense.

Especially since this is a 7th level spell that allows a reflex save, but wizards have their own 7th level spell capable of permanently blinding a target with no save, or at last blinding them for several minutes or several rounds with no save.

Stating that the final beam of this spell has a zero round effect, regardless of whether I use that final beam on round 6 or round 18 or anywhere in between, is awkward at the very least, and is not stated clearly in the spell's description one way or the other.

Compare this spell to Power Word: Blind, and you get:
1. PWB allows no save - advantage PWB
2. SB can affect 6 targets - advantage SB
3. SB also does damage - advantage SB
4. SB has no limitation based on target's HP - advantage SB
5. SB can be extremely destructive to undead, oozes, slimes, fungus - advantage SB.

So Sunbeam has a lot going for it that Power Word: Blind doesn't have.
Consequently, it seems like the blindness should be limited. And Sunbeam already has a duration of 1 round/level.

Sure, if you use up all your beams, the spell ends, but nothing in the spell description says that the Blinded condition instantly goes away when the spell ends.

Me, I say the blindness lasts the full 1 round/level. I would even say that the duration of the blindness begins on the round that you become blinded, although it could be very well argued that the duration of the blindness is only however many rounds remain of the spell's duration at the time you become blinded. Further, I would say that ending the spell prematurely by using your last beam does not end the blindness prematurely - any targets you have blinded will remain blinded for the original duration of the blindness.

That makes far more sense to me, and since this is a high-level spell, it seems more than justified.


DM_Blake,

Sunbeam can affect (theoretically) 12 medium targets per beam (area of effect is "line", meaning it passes through creatures to the limit of spell range).

The spell is puzzling to the extreme:
- Reflex save vs effect, which should be handled by Fortitude
- awkward duration wording

Anyone else, who would like to comment?

For now, I'd go with blindness lasting one round per caster level, counted from the moment creature is blinded. The reason is that use of Reflex save suggests temporary effect.

Regards,
Ruemere

Contributor

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The blindness should be permanent.

It's a Reflex save because the target is trying to dodge the beam, and failing to dodge it means you get the full effect of the beam in your face. If some character with good Fort and bad Ref wanted to not dodge the beam and just try a Fort save to avoid the blindness, I'd let him (he'd take full damage with no save for half, but he could use his Fort save to not be blinded).


Sean K Reynolds wrote:

The blindness should be permanent.

It's a Reflex save because the target is trying to dodge the beam, and failing to dodge it means you get the full effect of the beam in your face. If some character with good Fort and bad Ref wanted to not dodge the beam and just try a Fort save to avoid the blindness, I'd let him (he'd take full damage with no save for half, but he could use his Fort save to not be blinded).

Thank you, Sean. That was the ruling I made last session, when party cleric practically annihilated group of fire giants with this spell (she positioned herself to catch better part of the group in a single line). The doubts came later with the realization of how powerful is this spell against most warriors (it's like a 50% arcane failure on a caster).

Okies, so we have several voices against permanency and Sean's, the developer, in favor. Looks like it will be permanent.

Regards,
Ruemere

Paizo Employee Creative Director

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Similarly to how the blindness is permanent from a sunbeam, so is the hit point damage it causes. The damage you do with a sunbeam doesn't go away because the spell's duration ends, anymore than the damage from any spell goes away when it ends.

Also... permanent blindness is available as a 2nd level spell. Having a 7th level spell cause permanent blindness as a side effect is perfectly fine, and when you look at it that way by comparing it to the 2nd level blindness spell, it's pretty much the only logical assumption to make about how the spell works.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

Similarly to how the blindness is permanent from a sunbeam, so is the hit point damage it causes. The damage you do with a sunbeam doesn't go away because the spell's duration ends, anymore than the damage from any spell goes away when it ends.

Also... permanent blindness is available as a 2nd level spell. Having a 7th level spell cause permanent blindness as a side effect is perfectly fine, and when you look at it that way by comparing it to the 2nd level blindness spell, it's pretty much the only logical assumption to make about how the spell works.

This!


Okies, case closed. Thank you for the participation.

You also have gratitude of one pretty female lawyer, whose character whacked the giants thanks to Sunbeam-induced blindness.

:)

Regards,
Ruemere

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