Two questions here really, on pickpocketing and being pickpocketed.
1) In a campaign I used to run, one of the PCs will literally steal from almost every NPC ranging from farmers to shop keepers (yes, he was evil, and yes, it was my first time DMing). Being a mid level rogue, this is quite hard to stop. Apart from making every shop keeper a retired level 20 adventurer, what are some tips to prevent this from happening?
2) In my current (non-evil) campaign I'm running, the PCs (level 2) are and will be operating in a pirate town for several weeks (Riddleport from the Second Darkness adventure path). Naturally, being a pirate town, I feel the PCs should be a target of pickpockets once in a while (especially since batman's multitude of scrolls makes him a juicy target). What do you think should be a reasonable frequency of being pickpocketed? Keep in mind that, since this is an urban adventure, they have safe rooms to store all their stuff, meaning they don't have to carry all their belongings with them for day to day activities (which batman insists he should). Am I being too harsh for having the player's stuff be stolen because they aren't taking specific steps to prevent it?
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There's a player in my game that pickpockets every nobody in sight. My solution? Each success earns 1d12 copper pieces. Maybe rolled in silver if it's someone more prestigious.
Non-adventurers don't have as much travelling cash as adventurers. Even those that are wealthy keep all their coins safely stashed somewhere.
You could make this more abstract, while still keeping within the spirit of making the PCs still feel like Riddleport is not a safe place to flash your cash.
During Curse of the Crimson Throne, there is a part where the PCs are likely to pass through Kaer Maga, which has a similar degree of lawlessness. It suggests asking each PC to make a DC 15 Diplomacy or Intimidate check to avoid losing 2d6 gold to pickpockets and beggars.
You could have the PCs make a similar check once a week. More than that would not be very realistic. People actually do live in this town without constantly getting robbed blind. Maybe raise or lower the DC based on what the PCs do to avoid getting robbed.
You could have them make a check only when engaging in "risky" behavior, such as hauling giant sacks of loot home.
You could let them catch someone attempting to pick their pockets. Depending on how they deal with it, they may get a reputation, causing them to be immune to theft attempts, but also possibly getting them called out by some sort of Thieves Guild Master protecting his constituents.
Just like New Orleans--until they're out of stuff.
This is a point I like the Alarm spell for -- cast it on your pickets and if someone reaches in them you know!
Oh yeah, on the idea of PCs robbing shopkeepers. You might remind them that they would not be the first people to think of this and notice, the shopkeeper is still in business. Shopkeepers with nothing worth steeling don't have guards. Ones with highly valuable stuff will have guards. There may be no laws in this town, but if they get a reputation for killing shopkeepers, they may find themselves to be pariahs with no place to sleep, no one who will buy their loot and every shop gets shuttered when they approach. There will likely be a large price on their head.
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Two questions here really, on pickpocketing and being pickpocketed.
1) In a campaign I used to run, one of the PCs will literally steal from almost every NPC ranging from farmers to shop keepers (yes, he was evil, and yes, it was my first time DMing). Being a mid level rogue, this is quite hard to stop. Apart from making every shop keeper a retired level 20 adventurer, what are some tips to prevent this from happening?
2) In my current (non-evil) campaign I'm running, the PCs (level 2) are and will be operating in a pirate town for several weeks (Riddleport from the Second Darkness adventure path). Naturally, being a pirate town, I feel the PCs should be a target of pickpockets once in a while (especially since batman's multitude of scrolls makes him a juicy target). What do you think should be a reasonable frequency of being pickpocketed? Keep in mind that, since this is an urban adventure, they have safe rooms to store all their stuff, meaning they don't have to carry all their belongings with them for day to day activities (which batman insists he should). Am I being too harsh for having the player's stuff be stolen because they aren't taking specific steps to prevent it?
Firstly, a PC named Batman... awesome
Second, a dc 20 to pickpocket a "small" item off someone is the required check. This is to succeed the pickpocket mind you, they can succeed and get be noticed as well. While I don't recommend giving the player being picked a perception check EVERY time it happens, any other players looking in the general direction at the time get one opposed to the SoH, not to mention possible guards or an upstanding citizen if there are any.
It also depends how your players dress, alot of campaigns gloss over this fact but adventurers are really quite easy to spot in a crowd of normal-joes. If they take steps to look normal, things will work out better than if they go walking about in their full battle attire, weapons, pouches full of gold and such.
If the player wants to walk around with all his things on him, that's fine, but he better be aware he is a walking target in such a place.
On my current main character I RP as now, I have 6 pouches with currency in them, 2 filled with copper, 1 with silver, 1 with gold, and two with fake currency. The two fakes are the largest and most prominently displayed whereas the silver and gold are sewed into my jacket.
His coin pouch may not be the only target of pickpocketing though, scrolls, potions, artisans tools, gems, pretty much anything under a total size of about 1 cubic foot can be lifted. That rod or metamagic isn't there next time you reach for it? Shoulda left it at the hotel.
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He was probably referring to the 'Wizard as Batman' concept, where the wizard has a carefully crafted spells prepared list of high efficiency combat spells, and carries scrolls of all the utility spells he may have to cast everywhere, aka he has a Utility Belt.
Firstly, a PC named Batman... awesome
My parade has been canceled... due to rain :(
My parade has been canceled... due to rain :(
epic. I have seen a half dozen posts in the forums by you today Themetricsystem and they all make me laugh with some of the stuff you say haha.
Two questions here really, on pickpocketing and being pickpocketed.
1) In a campaign I used to run, one of the PCs will literally steal from almost every NPC ranging from farmers to shop keepers (yes, he was evil, and yes, it was my first time DMing). Being a mid level rogue, this is quite hard to stop. Apart from making every shop keeper a retired level 20 adventurer, what are some tips to prevent this from happening?
2) In my current (non-evil) campaign I'm running, the PCs (level 2) are and will be operating in a pirate town for several weeks (Riddleport from the Second Darkness adventure path). Naturally, being a pirate town, I feel the PCs should be a target of pickpockets once in a while (especially since batman's multitude of scrolls makes him a juicy target). What do you think should be a reasonable frequency of being pickpocketed? Keep in mind that, since this is an urban adventure, they have safe rooms to store all their stuff, meaning they don't have to carry all their belongings with them for day to day activities (which batman insists he should). Am I being too harsh for having the player's stuff be stolen because they aren't taking specific steps to prevent it?
Firstly, a PC named Batman... awesome
Second, a dc 20 to pickpocket a "small" item off someone is the required check. This is to succeed the pickpocket mind you, they can succeed and get be noticed as well. While I don't recommend giving the player being picked a perception check EVERY time it happens, any other players looking in the general direction at the time get one opposed to the SoH, not to mention possible guards or an upstanding citizen if there are any.
It also depends how your players dress, alot of campaigns gloss over this fact but adventurers are really quite easy to spot in a crowd of normal-joes. If they take steps to look normal, things will work out better than if they go walking about in their full battle attire, weapons, pouches full of gold and such.
If the player wants...
Yes, I'm refering to batman the concept, sorry!
But I guess the real question is, should the players be punished for walking around a pirate town looking like adventurers.
Use "The Kender Solution". In any Dragonlance game, anyone playing a kender has this problem (although they have the luxury of being good and getting away with it). Solution: just roll one check for the whole day's worth of thievery, unless it's an important NPC (i.e. the kind who can rip him a new one for it). He's such a high level rogue you can assume he's NOT going to be caught, and so you can at least save yourself the time on this one. Like everyone said, he shouldn't make too much cash off NPCs anyway, since 1sp represents a day's labor for the average person.
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But I guess the real question is, should the players be punished for walking around a pirate town looking like adventurers.
Disguise is a skill for a reason :D
I wouldn't think of it as "punishing" them so much as teaching them each a lesson they have yet to learn about RPing with urban landscapes.
I would handle it with one pickpocket attempt per hour they are on the street in that kind of clothing/ attire.
I.e. The party is level 6
A 4th level NPC expert pickpockets at +8 or 9 depending on how much dex you want to give the guy
Party level 13?
A 4th level expert/ 7th level rogue does the same but with something like +20 to 22 (By this point they would have taken skill focus slight of hand)
Take a mental inventory of anything the players have on their person that would be of particular interest. Teach them to be more careful, especially in a pirate town. It is by no means a MEAN thing to do, I am one of the meaner DM's I know of, at least according to what I have seen on here. For instance I have a group of 20 halflings and gnomes who swarm past a party of adventurers in a confusing bewildering small person stampede in order to distract and confound the party while a few of them make their way around pick pocketing valuable items. I only have ever used them twice, once in a big city (During a 3.x game) and once in an ambush to steal back a relic the party took from a temple. First time the Bard lost his +1 Battleaxe/Guitar (Yo, dawg, I heard you like to shred.) and had to buy it back for 2x the normal price at the Bazaar.
Pick Pocketing whenever, whoever and as often as you can is one of the fine, distinguished techniques designed to make your DM scream..
..along with searching for traps/secret doors every 10ft and disbelieving everything as often as possible on the off-chance that it's an illusion.
Hmm, there are probably others but my brain is... bad.
..ooh yes, and Paladins using Detect Evil on EVERYONE AND THING*
Madness..
However, 'How much pickpocketing is too much?' -- just about the amount that threatens to cause arguments in real life, wether due to group conflicts, the campaign being slowed to a feeble crawl or your party paladin willing to take the class loss just to be able to lynch your character.
It's a common sense check:
Personally I'd have pirates pick as many of the parties pockets as possible, gauge their reactions and then continue/ease up depending on their reaction.
They might go crazy, shout and rave and then... ...come up with some fun counters! Maybe even start a few swash n' buckle bar fights!
..or they might kick the table over and storm up crying.
Ya never knooooow...
As for prevention: Firstly, assume that everyone is paranoid about pickpocketing. Then introduce pocket-hand traps, akin to bear traps but for pockets, fake 'bait' pockets with scorpions/angry killer slugs stuffed into them, the town guard setting up sting operations to catch and kill pickpockets (or at least hack of a hand as a lesson) and so on.
The solution doesn't have to be perfect but by exploring the possible methods of prevention you can have a lot of fun and, hopefully, said PC might take the hint.
Or not.. o_o
Also, if there's a lot of pickpocketing going on, people won't keep all their gold in one pocket/in a pocket to begin with - they'd probably have it in a chest, locked and bound, ideally carried by a muscle bound/eagle eyed minion.
Hmm..
If all else fails, you could have a high level aberrant sorcerer encounter:-
1: Mr Pickpocket attempts to pick high level aberrant sorcerer's pocket.
2: Mr Pickpocket is grabbed by many slimey tentacles and pulled into a 'pocket dimension'** OF PAIN AND WOE!
//
*We had one paladin attempt to use it on every shrimp he ate at a banquet. After discovering that none of them were evil he assumed 'Something is going on.... -.o'
** Wiggling of eyebrows + JAZZ HANDS :D
Seriously the funniest things I have heard all week. Thank you for the morale bonus my friend!We had one paladin attempt to use it on every shrimp he ate at a banquet. After discovering that none of them were evil he assumed 'Something is going on.... -.o'
Credit should really go to Dave the Paladin and his player! Still, he'll be happy to hear his 'I hate fantasy naming conventions and cliche's' antics raised a smile! :)
Two questions here really, on pickpocketing and being pickpocketed.
1) In a campaign I used to run, one of the PCs will literally steal from almost every NPC ranging from farmers to shop keepers (yes, he was evil, and yes, it was my first time DMing). Being a mid level rogue, this is quite hard to stop. Apart from making every shop keeper a retired level 20 adventurer, what are some tips to prevent this from happening?
Mainly, I see two ways a PC can be doing too much pickpocketing. If there's a chance they'll get caught, eventually they will and the excessive pocket picking will be a self-corrected problem. The other time it's a problem is when it annoys the other players. Give them socks loaded with bars of soap, hold the offending player down, and it'll be a self-correcting problem again.
If he seems to good to be caught, your NPCs are too low in level. They don't need to be 20th level ex-adventurers. But if a shopkeeper has been in business for a substantial length of time, let him be a mid-level expert with some Perception skills. Simple as that. The pilfering can be detected with enough trials and the problem corrects itself with a trip to the chopping block for a hand removal.
KENDEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! *shakes fist*
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KENDEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! *shakes fist**looks up at Professor C.* "Oh this? Sorry Prof... you musta dropped it." *hands the random magic item to the big guy and turns around. "I'll be seein ya..."
(Sorry, that's just something I love about Kender, they're so innocent lol)
I am to this date dissapointed that I have not seen a decent write-up for a Kender race that is believable.
I bet the foyer of a typical Kender household is absolutely littered with other peoples possessions, keys, scraps of yarn, bent coins, a closet full of unmatched gloves and eating utensils.
KENDEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! *shakes fist**looks up at Professor C.* "Oh this? Sorry Prof... you musta dropped it." *hands the random magic item to the big guy and turns around. "I'll be seein ya..."
(Sorry, that's just something I love about Kender, they're so innocent lol)
The only time I've seen kender in a game is when we did an all evil Dragonlance game with our goal to completely wipe out the kender race.
We succeeded.
We enjoyed that game
>:|
PC's abusing pickpocket:
That's easy. There's quite a few countermeasures that some people, especially merchants, would take to prevent thieving. Alarm spells, Marker Dye, and dummy pouches are all easy countermeasures available to most any NPC.
Merchants and Nobles often have hired guards to watch over them and their things. I'm sure they would also have ways to divine the location of specific expensive items or merchandise that gets lifted. Nothing like swiping the merchants cash box, only to have the merchant knocking on your door with the town sheriff and a few guards in tow a couple hours later, the merchant holding up a compass pointing straight to the cashbox. Or, should it have been a slow day with few customers, each of the customers could easily be identified and brought in for questioning.
Even if the thief is successful, too much success can cause his ruin. If a bad rash of thefts are happening in town, people are going to take notice. Town patrols would double, people would be more alert and on the watch for suspicious activity (think neighborhood watch), checkpoints in some parts of town may be set up for searching for contraband, and even random house searches could be put into effect. Investigators could be called in to specifically hunt down the thief, using tracking, divination, or even equal rogue skills to detect and capture the thief. "Bait Marks" may even be sent out to catch the thief in the act, rich looking persons sent out with heavy coinpurses trapped with marker dye and detection spells, with guards stationed everywhere just out of sight.
Failing that, with continued thievery, the economy would eventually just collapse. Sorry, you can't buy new armor or weapons or get any repaired, the smith went out of business. You want a room at the inn? Sorry, had to close the doors. Not enough travellers coming through since business trade died off. Gonna have to go stay in the barn.
Pickpocketing PC's:
Go for it. But bear in mind a few things. If the adventurers look tough and have a reputation for kicking butt, few would risk trying to pickpocket them unless the reward was great. If they look like clueless tourists with tons of valuables hanging out of their pockets, they'd get ripped apart like christmas morning presents. Bear in mind your common thief doesn't want any trouble, just a free handout. If things even start to get dicey they'd likely just cut and run.
If the PC looks unassuming and of average/no wealth, they'd likely be overlooked as well.
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Solution: just roll one check for the whole day's worth of thievery, unless it's an important NPC (i.e. the kind who can rip him a new one for it).
This is probably the best bet.
You have a 35 on your sleight of hands check for the day? Ok here is your 35copper, 15 silver, and 3 brass bits for your efforts.
Also note that if a PC is performing thievery without Guild permission, there will be trouble.
I don't know about Riddleport, but in my games, the Guild is a lot like the Mafia. A merchant who bought protection finds out something was stolen, he goes to the Guild to complain. The Guild, having contacts with NPCs who do have access to more powerful magics, eventually track down other people who were in the shop and have a little "conversation" with 'em.
Make the players mark everything they are carrying on them when they go into town. Have a percentage chance that any given player is pickpocketted based off of how they look (obvious targets higher than non-obvious targets). Roll the percent chance every x ammount of time they spend wandering town, I would go for an hour or so, but have most people less than 10%. Perhaps this batman should be 20% for being obvious. Then roll your pickpocket check and die. Tell them that the wherever the die comes down, that number item on their list is missing.
My GMs use this against us fairly regularly. Its pretty effective and will get your players paranoid about their stuff like they should be. If they only have 1 pouch of cast with all their money in it, that is their problem for placing too many eggs in 1 basket.
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There's folks in the real world probably capable of pickpocketing everyone they see. Why don't they (beyond the notion it just sounds retarded to spend your days looking through the pockets of farmers...)?
As noted above, people tend to notice. Things were fine, no one was missing anything, until that group of people came into town. In fact, five people recall seeing the same person around, a stranger.... In medieval times, it doesn't take much more than that to ID the culprit.
Further, thieves guilds notice activity and they want their cut.
Finally, plant lint, someone's hand-carved canoe sculpture, stuff that is valuable or just junk to the person but not money. Not everyone walks around with cash in hand.
Two questions here really, on pickpocketing and being pickpocketed.
1) ... Apart from making every shop keeper a retired level 20 adventurer, what are some tips to prevent this from happening?
I think Umbral Reaver had the right idea, you can pickpocket anyone, but chances are all you'll get from most is a handful of coppers and a dirty handkerchief.
It's also worth remembering that even if people don't notice the theft at the time, they'll notice when they get home check their pockets. If the characters are staying in one place, the populace is likely to take notice of an increase in thefts and be more wary. Maybe the local guards increase their presence, or the local thieves guild comes looking for their competition. After a couple of days, everyone around would be getting perception checks.
2) What do you think should be a reasonable frequency of being pickpocketed? ... Am I being too harsh for having the player's stuff be stolen because they aren't taking specific steps to prevent it?
It depends what you want to achieve with this.
The idea someone posted about making Intimidation/Diplomacy checks to avoid losing 2d6 gold per week (or something like that) is a good idea if you don't want play out every single pickpocket attempt. You could also rule that someone who rolls doubles instead steals a scroll (or something similar, depending on how much you think that would upset your players).
What I'd probably do is start with a failed pickpocket attempt on your characters (The thief steals something, but they notice and chase him down fairly easily), so that they know they could potentially lose their stuff. After that, if they don't take steps to avoid it it's their own problem.
I'd also try to avoid stealing any really important items unless it's important to the plot. Stealing money doesn't really hurt, stealing a scroll is annoying. Stealing the wizard's bonded item or the fighter's ancestral great-hammer is downright demoralizing.
I'd be more inclined to use thefts as more of a plot device than just a mechanic for staying in town. Remember, the PC's aren't the only people around, they can see pickpockets targeting other people as well, so every theft doesn't have to involve them (unless they involve themselves).
Jun 15 2010 ;) Lets hope the OP have fixed his problems by now.
Pirate towns are full of thieves and such. Could very well be he steals from the wrong guy and gets his face kicked in by that guy and his shipmates.
Plus local guilds usually get really upset when interlopers come into "their" towns and steal, messing up their bribes with the local authorities by stealing too much or from the wrong area of town on the wrong day. Send some local guild enforcers their way to capture them and teach them a lesson about courtesy.
I know in our game we have learned to send our rogues/bards out into new towns we visit to find the locals and offer them 'insurance' payments to make sure we are left alone.
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Jun 15 2010 ;) Lets hope the OP have fixed his problems by now.
lol derp =P
I was bored at work and clicking on everything. At least it gave me some things to think about for my campaigns.