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Well he gets summon monster 9 as a spell like ability usable Cha Mod + 3 times per day at level 18... so I think he will be spamming them.DM Blake - The Summoner has a bard's spell progression, so he'll never spam high level monsters with his spells like a Sorcerer could. That’s probably for the best since spamming the board with summons makes a lot of groups sad (maybe even sadder than the eidolon outperforming the Fighter)
In a way, they are the equivalent of many spells, and since they can make use of most of their spells, their spells are essentially his spells. Never underestimate the awesomeness that is summon monster 9.
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In a way, they are the equivalent of many spells, and since they can make use of most of their spells, their spells are essentially his spells. Never underestimate the awesomeness that is summon monster 9.Well he gets summon monster 9 as a spell like ability usable Cha Mod + 3 times per day at level 18... so I think he will be spamming them.DM Blake - The Summoner has a bard's spell progression, so he'll never spam high level monsters with his spells like a Sorcerer could. That’s probably for the best since spamming the board with summons makes a lot of groups sad (maybe even sadder than the eidolon outperforming the Fighter)
Trust me, he doesn't.
Just.. trust me on this.
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In a way, they are the equivalent of many spells, and since they can make use of most of their spells, their spells are essentially his spells. Never underestimate the awesomeness that is summon monster 9.Well he gets summon monster 9 as a spell like ability usable Cha Mod + 3 times per day at level 18... so I think he will be spamming them.DM Blake - The Summoner has a bard's spell progression, so he'll never spam high level monsters with his spells like a Sorcerer could. That’s probably for the best since spamming the board with summons makes a lot of groups sad (maybe even sadder than the eidolon outperforming the Fighter)
Trust me, he doesn't.
Just.. trust me on this.
Why should I trust you?
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Why should I trust you?In a way, they are the equivalent of many spells, and since they can make use of most of their spells, their spells are essentially his spells. Never underestimate the awesomeness that is summon monster 9.Well he gets summon monster 9 as a spell like ability usable Cha Mod + 3 times per day at level 18... so I think he will be spamming them.DM Blake - The Summoner has a bard's spell progression, so he'll never spam high level monsters with his spells like a Sorcerer could. That’s probably for the best since spamming the board with summons makes a lot of groups sad (maybe even sadder than the eidolon outperforming the Fighter)
Trust me, he doesn't.
Just.. trust me on this.
Because I've seen him use Summon spells, and I've seen his suggestions on which monsters to summon, most of them for combat prowess and seplls/spell-like abilites. Probably should have said that in the first post... sorry for any confusion.
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Because I've seen him use Summon spells, and I've seen his suggestions on which monsters to summon, most of them for combat prowess and seplls/spell-like abilites. Probably should have said that in the first post... sorry for any confusion.Why should I trust you?In a way, they are the equivalent of many spells, and since they can make use of most of their spells, their spells are essentially his spells. Never underestimate the awesomeness that is summon monster 9.Well he gets summon monster 9 as a spell like ability usable Cha Mod + 3 times per day at level 18... so I think he will be spamming them.DM Blake - The Summoner has a bard's spell progression, so he'll never spam high level monsters with his spells like a Sorcerer could. That’s probably for the best since spamming the board with summons makes a lot of groups sad (maybe even sadder than the eidolon outperforming the Fighter)
Trust me, he doesn't.
Just.. trust me on this.
So you're admitting to working for him? Do you feel any shame?
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Well he gets summon monster 9 as a spell like ability usable Cha Mod + 3 times per day at level 18... so I think he will be spamming them.
Yep the player in my group just keeps the summons coming. For example our group of three (lev 9) split into two parties a pair chasing after three stone giants while the summoner and Eidelon chased a two giants and three dire bears. the bears got nuked and quickly by the Eidelon while the Summoner hid nearby casting away. He summoned a stone elemental and a few other little annoyances to "spam the board" while the annoyances did little damage (lantern archeons) they were effective. Meanwhile my fighter and cleric fought dearly for their lives and the fighter died (partially for being stupid). Now while the Fighter died a gruesome pulping death the Summoner did not. He hid (+used invis) while his pets did the work; and (this is important) if they all were to get destroyed he could just keep hiding, slip away and re summon them all tomorrow. In one encounter the PC's came back to a cave about 4 times summoned creatures let them run riot and then returned again and again. I found it boring, effective but boring.
Well he gets summon monster 9 as a spell like ability usable Cha Mod + 3 times per day at level 18... so I think he will be spamming them.
I was just saying that the Summoner won't spam high level monsters (especially with his spells). He only gets up to Summon Monster VI with spells while the sorcerer gets up to Summon Monster IX (and way more spells per day). He could certainly spam low level monsters with spells if he wants to just be a nuisance. The spell-like ability isn't really a threat for spamming since per the final playtest version you can only have one instance of it active at a time.
Maybe we're just defining "spamming" differently though. I took DM Blake to mean that the player floods the map with monsters. If by "spamming" you mean that the Summoner will keep summoning new monsters after the old ones die or expire I'd have to agree, but this is probably why he's called the Summoner. It is possible that his uses per day of the spell-like ability should be cut down, but honestly I've only come close to using them all once so far (granted we're only 5th level)
Maybe we're just defining "spamming" differently though. I took DM Blake to mean that the player floods the map with monsters. If by "spamming" you mean that the Summoner will keep summoning new monsters after the old ones die or expire I'd have to agree, but this is probably why he's called the Summoner. It is possible that his uses per day of the spell-like ability should be cut down, but honestly I've only come close to using them all once so far (granted we're only 5th level)
Yeah that's what I meant and was getting at: Honestly it's a real boon for any party with a cleric -- after level 18 he'll never really have to prep a heal or cure spell again -- just have the summoner summon one of his many trumpet archons or such.
I'd like to point out that a fighter at 4th level with a caster who casts enlarge person, wielding a glaive, can hit anything and everything within 15' if it so much as twitches.
1st: Power Attack.
2nd: Combat Reflexes.
3rd: Catch off Guard (which means if someone gets inside your reach you can slam him in the face with the haft of your weapon for 1d6+str damage, and he's flat footed.)
4th: Cleave.With the glaive he's got reach. And to that the natural reach of 10 from enlarge person. Suddenly, anything coming anywhere near the fighter is a target, and on his turn, he's still striking at least two targets. By 9th level, this fighter will be outclassing the eidolon quite easily with the help of a single potion or caster using enlarge person on him - and even without that, once he takes lunge and great cleave.
It really does depend on who is buffing whom and the builds you are dealing with, along with the monsters you are fighting.
A few problems with your example.
First, catch off guard does not work in the way you suggest. While it does remove the penalties for using an improvised weapon, you still wouldn't threaten the area inside the glaive's reach, so you could not make attacks of opportunity there. (Otherwise, there would be no reason anyone with a polearm couldn't do exactly the same trick, just with a -4 to the attack roll.)
Second, Cleave has far more specific conditions for positioning in Pathfinder than in it did in 3.5 (the tradeoff for it being usable without dropping a foe first, I suppose). To attack two targets with cleave they must both be within your reach and they must both be adjacent to one another. That second one gets harder and harder to fulfill as the area you're covering increases.
Third, (and this is a major sticking point for me) you're comparing the effects of the Fighter using his full round of actions plus an additional action (either from a friendly caster buffing the fighter with enlarge person or from the fighter himself drinking a potion in a previous round) against the Eidolon alone (whose actions represent only half of what the summoner can do each round).
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A few problems with your example.
First, catch off guard does not work in the way you suggest. While it does remove the penalties for using an improvised weapon, you still wouldn't threaten the area inside the glaive's reach, so you could not make attacks of opportunity there. (Otherwise, there would be no reason anyone with a polearm couldn't do exactly the same trick, just with a -4 to the attack roll.)
Second, Cleave has far more specific conditions for positioning in Pathfinder than in it did in 3.5 (the tradeoff for it being usable without dropping a foe first, I suppose). To attack two targets with cleave they must both be within your reach and they must both be adjacent to one another. That second one gets harder and harder to fulfill as the area you're covering increases.
Third, (and this is a major sticking point for me) you're comparing the effects of the Fighter using his full round of actions plus an additional action (either from a friendly caster buffing the fighter with enlarge person or from the...
DING DING DING... we have a winner. I agree, I soooo totally agree you want to try it playtest a summoner and his eidelon vs a fighter and start the two 100 ft away. Sumoner goes invis hides and just keeps on pumping out summons that hit for touch and grapple or hold the fighter into submission.. gluck
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No. The casting of the spell is done when the creature arrives. It is then the creature that attacks not the summoner.. Sumoner goes invis hides and just keeps on pumping out summons that hit for touch and grapple or hold the fighter into submission.. gluckwould not the attacking of the spell cancel invisability?
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yes i see this but allso see it as the summoners spell effect doing damage. i just wonder if this is the way everyone rules this so i can do it too in my games
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Hey dudes! Official word is that summoner will no longer be able to have the eidolon and other summons in play at the same time. After the APG releases, the extra summons will be a back-up for when the eidolon gets knocked back to its home plane. Hope that helps ease people's concerns about the class, without really bumming out too many fans of the summoner! (I know I'm a fan of the change, anyway!)
Hey dudes! Official word is that summoner will no longer be able to have the eidolon and other summons in play at the same time. After the APG releases, the extra summons will be a back-up for when the eidolon gets knocked back to its home plane. Hope that helps ease people's concerns about the class, without really bumming out too many fans of the summoner! (I know I'm a fan of the change, anyway!)
Hm. So wouldn't that make the summoner kind of lame compared to the druid (who is free to have an animal companion + summoned creatures + full spellcasting, etc.)?
I guess I'll reserve my judgement until I hear more about it.
yes i see this but allso see it as the summoners spell effect doing damage. i just wonder if this is the way everyone rules this so i can do it too in my games
Under the invisibility spell it says summoning monsters to attack does not cancel the spell.
Hey dudes! Official word is that summoner will no longer be able to have the eidolon and other summons in play at the same time. After the APG releases, the extra summons will be a back-up for when the eidolon gets knocked back to its home plane. Hope that helps ease people's concerns about the class, without really bumming out too many fans of the summoner! (I know I'm a fan of the change, anyway!)
You got a link?
Either way I think that is too much of a nerf. The issue was not with the summons+Eidolon. The issue was that a low level Eidolon had to many attacks, and was too easy to customize. It should have been more like the astral construct from 3.5. You get a list you can choose from and as you level you get access to a better list.|
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He summoned a stone elemental and a few other little annoyances to "spam the board" while the annoyances did little damage (lantern archeons)
A Summoner can only have one of the summons from his SLA active at a time. He can, in theory, also learn a few Summon Monster spells, but given his tiny 'spells known' list, that's a fairly suboptimal choice.
Any Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer or Wizard could have done what you described, 'spamming the board' with multiple Summons (with the Druid, Abyssal Sorcerer and Conjuration Wizard being the best at it), but a Summoner, ironically, would be far less likely to be able to do it.
The Summoner may or may not have some real issues, but not using the rules (1 SLA at a time) sounds like the problem here, not the class itself.
Like most 'OMG, OP!' discussions, I'm seeing a lot of whining from people who haven't played one, and gotten to experience the joy of having an Eidolon with half the hit points of a Druid's Companion (and, quite possibly, half the hit points *of the Summoner himself*) out there getting it's face ripped off in almost every combat at 1st level, because it started the game with 6 (half of d10, +1 for Con 13) hit points, and is going to spend a significant portion of it's 1st level life at three hit points, since it comes back at half-health when you resummon it (which you'll need to do about every other encounter, it seriously dies that fast), and the Summoner, unlike other special animal friend classes, like the Druid, Paladin and Ranger, not only has no healing spells (or class abilities) to get his buddy back into the action, but doesn't even have the Heal skill as a class skill, since he's apparently *intended by class design* to let his otherworldly friend die in every combat.
A 1st level Druid Companion has twice the HD, and therefore twice the hit points (and either of them can take Toughness, so that's a wash, although the Druid Companion is less likely to *need* it).
Depending on the critter you take, it can have three attacks (ape, badger, bear, eagle, big cat, lil' cat, velociraptor, horse) and it might have abilities that an Eidolon can't even *buy* until 5th level (eagle - flight) or 7th level (viper - poison) or can *never* have (badger - rage, boar - ferocity, cheetah/crocodile - sprint, any - Light Armor Prof for up to a +4 armor bonus to AC).
If you take Improved Natural Armor as one of your Evolutions, the Summoner's Eidolon will have AC 16, +1 or +2 AC over some of the starting Druid Companions, but not all of them (badger, dog, viper). and still have 1 *less* AC than a small cat, crocigator or shark or two less AC than a boar (you can be a big pig, too, Oi!).
A decent starting Eidolon (quadruped) might have claws, improved natural armor and improved damage (claws), assuming that he's good for nothing else. A velociraptor has twice the hit points, does 1 less point of damage with his bite and a competitive AC. (And, can be trained to wear armor, and leather barding is cheap, allowing a +2 armor bonus for small coin.) It's also faster and has scent, something your combat-optimized Eidolon couldn't afford. If he skimps on the armor prof and trusts to his double hit points over the Eidolon (further enhanced by his higher Con than the Eidolon, with that Con bonus being doubled because he's got 2 HD at 1st level), he could take Weapon Finesse and use his +3 Dex mod for his attacks, making +2 more accurate with his three attacks per round than the Eidolon would be.
The Eidolon pretty much falls over with it's legs in the air when people start swinging pointy objects around. It's a decent damage add when it's *not under attack,* but once it takes a hit, it's nappy time, and the Summoner has no way of bringing him back, other than to let him die, and then spend a minute after combat (1/day only) resummoning him at half hit points.
If the Summoner does something flamboyantly stupid and rushes forward and makes that DC 15 Heal check (possibly untrained, possibly cross-class) and stabilizes his extraplanar boo, he then gets to wait days, possibly a week or more (at 1st level it doesn't 'die' until -13 hit points, so he could stabilize it at -10 ish and then have to wait *ten days* for it to naturally heal to 1 hit point, or, if he bought the Heal skill cross-class, perhaps he can cut that to a mere *five days!*), for the critter to heal on it's own, since, yanno, he can't heal it, making it more efficient and practical to slit it's throat if it accidentally self-stabilizes, so that he can summon it back at half hit points.
Or he can deplete the party's healing resources, or, later, UMD a wand of cure light wounds or something, because he's got a class feature that he can't repair / recharge without outside help...
Like most 'OMG, OP!' discussions, I'm seeing a lot of whining from people who haven't played one, and gotten to experience the joy of having an Eidolon with half the hit points of a Druid's Companion (and, quite possibly, half the hit points *of the Summoner himself*) out there getting it's face ripped off in almost every combat at 1st level, because it started the game with 6 (half of d10, +1 for Con 13) hit points[...]
It's certainly possible that the eidolon is too flimsy at level 1 and too strong at level 9 (say).
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I thought you could only summon the Eidolon once per day (and not for the rest of the day after it dies, which seems redundant to me)...
I just looked that up, and you are indeed correct. No more saving up my summons to call it back right after it dies!
So, uh, worse than what I said above. Woot. Go Team OP.
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It's certainly possible that the eidolon is too flimsy at level 1 and too strong at level 9 (say).
That is possible, and certainly was back in early playtest, when you could take the Tentacles Evolution like 10 times, and have a dozen or more attacks, as well as stacking Imp Natural Armor and Armor Proficiency, for really sweet Armor Class values. That was pretty insane, particularly once you used Energy Attacks on the dozen or so tentacle hits, for an extra +1d6 acid damage or whatever.
But the OPs 9th level Summoner had an *80* hit point Eidolon with a Con 17. At 9th level, it should be 7 HD, with 5.5 hit points / HD (+21 hp from it's Con bonus), which comes out to 59, not 80. Even if it has Toughness (which, frankly, it should), that's 66 hp, still not 80. My thought that the problem was less that the Eidolon is so amazingly broken as that the math wasn't adding up, quite possibly in more areas than just in the hit point scores.
Plus there was the matter of buffage, with mage armor, haste and (sometimes) shield mentioned. It's hardly shocking that a buffed-to-the-hilt throwaway character is going to put on an impressive showing against the front-line tank PC that *should* have been receiving his party's buffs.
Hey dudes! Official word is that summoner will no longer be able to have the eidolon and other summons in play at the same time. After the APG releases, the extra summons will be a back-up for when the eidolon gets knocked back to its home plane. Hope that helps ease people's concerns about the class, without really bumming out too many fans of the summoner! (I know I'm a fan of the change, anyway!)Hm. So wouldn't that make the summoner kind of lame compared to the druid (who is free to have an animal companion + summoned creatures + full spellcasting, etc.)?
I guess I'll reserve my judgement until I hear more about it.
The druid's do not last a min a level, I am thinking it will only apply to the spell like ability not his normal casting.
The druid's do not last a min a level, I am thinking it will only apply to the spell like ability not his normal casting.Hey dudes! Official word is that summoner will no longer be able to have the eidolon and other summons in play at the same time. After the APG releases, the extra summons will be a back-up for when the eidolon gets knocked back to its home plane. Hope that helps ease people's concerns about the class, without really bumming out too many fans of the summoner! (I know I'm a fan of the change, anyway!)Hm. So wouldn't that make the summoner kind of lame compared to the druid (who is free to have an animal companion + summoned creatures + full spellcasting, etc.)?
I guess I'll reserve my judgement until I hear more about it.
The druid's animal companion certainly lasts more than a minute per level.
From what Benn is saying it sounds like the summoner can have one long term minion (either an eidolon or a summoned creature) and some short term minions (if he's willing to waste a spell known on Summon Monster). Whereas a druid can have one long term minion (an animal companion) and as some better short term minions (via Summon Nature's Ally). Not to mention wild shape. Or level 9 spells, eventually.
The druid's do not last a min a level, I am thinking it will only apply to the spell like ability not his normal casting.
Even if that is the case, it still sucks as he will be casting Summon Monster VI when others will be casting Summon Monster VIII.
Totally not worth it.
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They did mention at PaizoCon that although the summoner cannot summon monsters while the eidolon is present, the limitation on # of times per day the eidolon can be summoned has been removed, so you can dismiss it and resummon it as often as you want.
Ah ok! So they're actually being reasonable. I'd say (even as someone who like the Summoner as-is) that this is a decent change. It would now allow a Summoner to essentially specialize in his Eidolon or his Summons, and not both at the same time.
If we can take this change and stop b*%#@ing about the class being overpowered, I'll be happy.
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They did mention at PaizoCon that although the summoner cannot summon monsters while the eidolon is present, the limitation on # of times per day the eidolon can be summoned has been removed, so you can dismiss it and resummon it as often as you want.
That's interesting. Thanks for sharing this info!
They did mention at PaizoCon that although the summoner cannot summon monsters while the eidolon is present, the limitation on # of times per day the eidolon can be summoned has been removed, so you can dismiss it and resummon it as often as you want.
Why are they calling it the Summoner then? I felt the main premise of the class was to summon stuff with the Eidolon as the 'flagship' which made up for not having full spell progression. This is such a massive hit with the nerf-bat. It drops the Summoner class down several Tiers with this one change alone. I know I won't be playing one now.
It can still summon, but that is what the eidolon is as well. They are saying it can only have the Eidolon summoned or one of the supped up SLA summons active at one time. Seems they also cut out the "you can only summon the Eidolon 1/day" thing as well.
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Why are they calling it the Summoner then? I felt the main premise of the class was to summon stuff with the Eidolon as the 'flagship' which made up for not having full spell progression.
The Summoner, as it was, was still weaker than the Druid, which has the ability to have a half-dozen summons out simultaneously *and* it's animal companion active *and* full spellcasting progression *and* better class abilities (mainly Wild Shape) *and* can heal both self and Companion *and* can turn any of it's spells into summons spontaneously.
But the Summoner was definitely a better 'summoner' option than a Conjurer (and certainly a more survivable one).
Now, the Summoner is even 'more weaker' compared to the Druid, but since it's perhaps supposed to be balanced against it's fellow arcane caster, the Specialist Conjurer, maybe it needed to be beaten repeatedly to help obscure how big the jump is between Druid and Conjurer.
I'm kinda curious if they fixed the Life Link nonsense to make it usable, or gave the Summoner some way of healing their Eidolon.
Sounds like, if that was the only change, a very bad one. I've seen a summoner in play at level 11 with full use of his summoning, and haven't been impressed. I've also seen one the last few weeks in a dungeon in which he can't use his summon monster SLAs, where he's been all but useless. Literally his only contribution in the last combats has been buffs provided by him, which a sorcerer could have done better.
Of course, we don't know what other changes they have planned to keep the class viable, so I'll hold of any final judgement of the class until we see the final version.
The Eidolon is, in my experience, too fragile to be an effective combatant, and has too low of an attack bonus on average relative to the fighter. This is of course, as stated, based on my experiences, which have been known to vary with the majorities. For instance, I've never had an issue some have with the fighter being worthless or underpowered. Quite the contrary really.
I dont like the change. The issues, IMHO, were the ability to customize it to get a really high AC and too many attacks.
Sounds like, if that was the only change, a very bad one. I've seen a summoner in play at level 11 with full use of his summoning, and haven't been impressed. I've also seen one the last few weeks in a dungeon in which he can't use his summon monster SLAs, where he's been all but useless. Literally his only contribution in the last combats has been buffs provided by him, which a sorcerer could have done better.
Of course, we don't know what other changes they have planned to keep the class viable, so I'll hold of any final judgement of the class until we see the final version.
The Eidolon is, in my experience, too fragile to be an effective combatant, and has too low of an attack bonus on average relative to the fighter. This is of course, as stated, based on my experiences, which have been known to vary with the majorities. For instance, I've never had an issue some have with the fighter being worthless or underpowered. Quite the contrary really.
Yeah, I'll be interested in seeing the final version of this, but I do worry a bit that we went from "hey, I'm a summoner, and my two tricks in combat are to buff my Eidolon and summon another monster," to "Hey, I can . . . buff my Eidolon . . . who needs an aid another? . . . anyone?"
Funny, I'm in a campaign with the exact opposite situation. If my Summoner and his eidolon (who was basically built to be as much like a couatl as possible) ganged up on the Fighter, he would easily stomp the both of us. The fighter's attack bonus is 7-9 points higher than my eidolon's, assuming no buffs and depending on which weapon he's currently using, he deals far more damage, has higher AC, higher hit points, better saves and, thanks to shield feats and adamantine armor, better damage reduction.
If the summoner really is limited to one summon/eidolon at a time, my character will go from barely useful to mildly useless.
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Funny, I'm in a campaign with the exact opposite situation. If my Summoner and his eidolon (who was basically built to be as much like a couatl as possible) ganged up on the Fighter, he would easily stomp the both of us. The fighter's attack bonus is 7-9 points higher than my eidolon's, assuming no buffs and depending on which weapon he's currently using, he deals far more damage, has higher AC, higher hit points, better saves and, thanks to shield feats and adamantine armor, better damage reduction.
If the summoner really is limited to one summon/eidolon at a time, my character will go from barely useful to mildly useless.
Yes, I know. I was there. I booed. People actually applauded this move, however, but that may be because I was booing so loudly.