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Hello Everyone,
The Kingmaker adventure "path"/sandbox has gotten me absolutely pumped in terms of DMing again for our group (we are a group of 6 DMs and 1 player). I plan to run it in a few months when our current campaign has a break. However, I have a few issues with the "story" setup that I need to resolve so if you can help - please add your thoughts and experiences.
The charters presented to the PCs in the first and particularly the second module seem overly "nice" to me.
- Why would the Swordlords of Restov entrust such a conceivably important mission to a bunch of 1st level novices/amateurs (albeit with potential)? Don't they have a more experienced crew that they could send?
- Why do the PCs get the soft/rich Greenland belt charter and not one of the harder ones?
- Alternatively why not group all the people they have sent forth with these charters to just the Greenbelt to ensure the venture before spreading out to the harsher regions?
- Why not just hire the PCs rather than basically handing them a fortune in land and resources? Surely one of the "lesser" swordlords would like to see himself prince of a new province rather than a can-kicker to his superiors? Surely someone of importance in Restov is owed a big favour?
- Surely if this venture is successful, it is going to drain Restov and other Rostlandi interests of important population, soldiery and labour. Is this what they want leading up to a potential civil war? This means as a separate entity it is a threat. As a tightly held commodity, it is a crutch.
I suppose these are only small issues, but I know for my group who play a gritty hardball game, these elements would be issues that in the end will dampen versimilitude for them.
How has your group resolved these "issues" or alternatively, have they not worried about such things?
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
PS:
My rough plan to get bolster this is as follows. It means a greater interest in Brevoy politics but I think that would be a fun addition to the Kingmaker campaign.
- The original charter to the "stolen lands" was owned by one of the Houses (perhaps House Lebeda). It basically said that they owned the stolen lands in perpetuity. However, seeing the non-profitability of the venture after several colonising attempts, they decided to desolve the original charter into four separate charters that they could sell off to interested buyers or possibly as alliance favours.
- In the end the four charters drifted into separate ownerships with mixed but in the main little success. In terms of the political landscape, the charters dissolved into obscurity as the lands were pretty much abandoned to the wild.
- A scholarly wandering wizard however hears from one of his contacts (potentially one of the "rangery" PCs) of the disappearance of the Greenbelt Tyrant (potentially a large dragon or some such). Several months later the contact confirms the siting of the massive dead body decomposing in one of the valleys. This represents a significant shift in the greenbelt as the region becomes potentially safer to once again attempt to colonise.
- This wandering wizard pools the majority of his funds (selling almost all he owns) to purchase the greenbelt charter with this new knowledge from its current owner. He then pools together his contacts to form a speculative venture into the greenbelt. However, he holds off on registering the charter with the officialdom in Restov so as to not create too much interest in the venture until it has at least tasted some element of success. He knows that when the Charter is officially registered, certain parties will start investigating their own interests in the south.
I have further ideas but this is the basis for the moment. I'm obviously waiting for the entire path to be revealed before setting things in stone.
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Fairly simple to explain the reasons behind all of your concerns if you use the Kingmaker Traits. A player who chooses noble birth, bastard, rich parents, pioneer, etc. can easily justify his character's presence and, very likely, why his team got the cushy job... but I like your idea, too. I might prefer to use the Traits since they automatically give each player his own vested interest even if its more handwavy than the approach you're taking. If I were writing a book, your idea may be superior.... but for gaming purposes, I'd rather use the Traits and let each player choose the hook that works for him and work with it.
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Hello Everyone,
The Kingmaker adventure "path"/sandbox has gotten me absolutely pumped in terms of DMing again for our group (we are a group of 6 DMs and 1 player). I plan to run it in a few months when our current campaign has a break. However, I have a few issues with the "story" setup that I need to resolve so if you can help - please add your thoughts and experiences.
The charters presented to the PCs in the first and particularly the second module seem overly "nice" to me.
- Why would the Swordlords of Restov entrust such a conceivably important mission to a bunch of 1st level novices/amateurs (albeit with potential)? Don't they have a more experienced crew that they could send?
- Why do the PCs get the soft/rich Greenland belt charter and not one of the harder ones?
- Alternatively why not group all the people they have sent forth with these charters to just the Greenbelt to ensure the venture before spreading out to the harsher regions?
- Why not just hire the PCs rather than basically handing them a fortune in land and resources? Surely one of the "lesser" swordlords would like to see himself prince of a new province rather than a can-kicker to his superiors? Surely someone of importance in Restov is owed a big favour?
- Surely if this venture is successful, it is going to drain Restov and other Rostlandi interests of important population, soldiery and labour. Is this what they want leading up to a potential civil war? This means as a separate entity it is a threat. As a tightly held commodity, it is a crutch.I suppose these are only small issues, but I know for my group who play a gritty hardball game, these elements would be issues that in the end will dampen versimilitude for them.
How has your group resolved these "issues" or alternatively, have they not worried about such things?
Best Regards
Herremann the WisePS:
My rough plan to get bolster this is as follows. It means a greater interest in Brevoy politics but I think that would be a fun addition to the Kingmaker...
Hopefully this gives you a hand on how to entrust the party with a Charter. I recommend you give them the choice of "The Pioneers", "The Soldiers", "The Bastards" or "The Exiles" as an origin. This way it becomes clear why they are entrusted with the exploration of the Stolen Lands.
My own party started off with "The Exiles" origin, but found that their contact had also hired others to go into the Stolen Lands. (I have a group of 12 players). The Exiles are more interested in being free than Brevic politics (and because Brevoy plays such a minor part, except for the occasional supply drop it's no big deal).
I am running two groups through this. I did not like the idea of the Swordlords having enough resources or abilities to do this on the sly, so I made all of the charters official ones from the Crown.
The more experienced people were sent west and east to deal with the bigger threats or diplomatic troubles. The players were exploring the easy low-hanging fruit. Better people would have been sent, but the players are members of the Noble Houses, so the Houses pushed for them to be sent to win glory.
For group 2 I had the charter actually be sponsored by King Noleski... and given to the group at a meeting in a Restov backroom. Nobles representing the major houses were there to sign the charter, along with some Swordlords. When the charter was being given out there was a bit of a betrayal event, with mercenary guards attempting to kill the Nobles before they handed out the charter... but the attempt failed thanks to the adventurers' efforts. However, the scene did demonstrate the growing tensions between the Noble factions in Brevoy.
I'm making sure all of my players have a reason to be given the charter.
One has ties to the church. I'm giving him a vision that his destiny lies in the south, so when he went to his church elders they had just heard of this venture. They make sure he gets sent on this mission. I'm debating having the vision coming from a friendly fae who wants help in opposing the BBEG, instead of his god.
Annother is tied into the thieves guild. They have an interest in getting this area stable but friendly so they can get resources down the river to Minov. They pulled strings to get him into the group.
I'm still working on the others. I don't have their full background yet.
The second charter, they have proven that they have been successful and are compotent, so they are tursted with resources.
- Why would the Swordlords of Restov entrust such a conceivably important mission to a bunch of 1st level novices/amateurs (albeit with potential)? Don't they have a more experienced crew that they could send?
Yes, they do. They sent them elsewhere.
- Why do the PCs get the soft/rich Greenland belt charter and not one of the harder ones?
Because they would stand no chance - no point in sending people to slaughter.
- Alternatively why not group all the people they have sent forth with these charters to just the Greenbelt to ensure the venture before spreading out to the harsher regions?
Too large a group would attract too much attention. Also, you don't put all your seeds in one spot - you spread them around and the seeds will grow where the soil is most fertile.
- Why not just hire the PCs rather than basically handing them a fortune in land and resources? Surely one of the "lesser" swordlords would like to see himself prince of a new province rather than a can-kicker to his superiors? Surely someone of importance in Restov is owed a big favour?
Great idea!
- Surely if this venture is successful, it is going to drain Restov and other Rostlandi interests of important population, soldiery and labour. Is this what they want leading up to a potential civil war? This means as a separate entity it is a threat. As a tightly held commodity, it is a crutch.
You have a point here - presumably the idea is that as long as they draw in people from other than Rostland, total population is increasing. And hopefully resources are being built on the frontier (especially experienced combatants), more efficiently than in a city.
Great idea!
- Why not just hire the PCs rather than basically handing them a fortune in land and resources? Surely one of the "lesser" swordlords would like to see himself prince of a new province rather than a can-kicker to his superiors? Surely someone of importance in Restov is owed a big favour?
I plan on doing this. Introducing a major NPC back in Restov pulling strings for the PCs is a great way to tie them back to what is going on there.
You have a point here - presumably the idea is that as long as they draw in people from other than Rostland, total population is increasing. And hopefully resources are being built on the frontier (especially experienced combatants), more efficiently than in a city.
- Surely if this venture is successful, it is going to drain Restov and other Rostlandi interests of important population, soldiery and labour. Is this what they want leading up to a potential civil war? This means as a separate entity it is a threat. As a tightly held commodity, it is a crutch.
I am handling this by having some overpopulation in Brevoy. Land is handed down to the eldest son, so they have a lot of landless farmers or people who inherit nothing. It was a major force of expansion in Europe. The government is offering a small incentive to move out once the players establish their kingdom, like 10 acres and an ox, as many european nations and the US did with undeveloped areas. They also are shiping with these people building supplies and food to start the settlement. That is what the initial 40 BP are.
In return, Brevoy gets a much safer boarder. There are no longer hazardous beasts/fae attacking them on their southern boarder, and Pitax has a speed bump that will give them time to prepare in the event of war.
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I've transplanted the concept and some of the specifics of the Kingmaker adventure path to my homebrew setting, and have addressed some of the problems/issues the OP references.
Firstly I have replaced Brevoy with one of the larger central nations in my setting, this nation has just endured a 5 year war against 'the Blight' (a Skaven nation led by 'the God Rat'), the east of the nation has been flooded with refugees from the west.
The pcs are sent by an eastern nobleman (possibly without the backing of the insane Emperor, or his shrewd heir who now is in fact running things) precisely with the intent of creating a new barony that can be settled by the swarms of refugees draining the resources of the eastern provinces.
Small bands of adventurers are being used to explore and then perhaps receive landgrants and titles of nobility, because the Prince behind the Charters wants to keep the plan on the down low for the time being, possibly because he means to build up a string of border statelets loyal specifically to him. In theory at least.
I've also made the pc's bit of the Stolen Lands (which I've placed into my homebrew setting) include some of the wilderness bits of Darkmoon Vale too (without the towns).
for our group the Ruler/party leader is a Noble Prodigy who applied for the charter. The rest of the party are people she hired. She has asked them to come help her Map out the region. She will tell them later on that she has acquired a charter to settle there and ask them if they want to Join.
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The 2nd book does a pretty good job of explaining why nobody overly connected to Restov/Brevoy does the colonization (so as not to be seen as a power grab by other countries in the area). It makes perfect sense that they're gonna send some expandable, non-connected mooks to do the exploring and, if they survive, start up an allied (but not directly connected) kingdom.
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First off - I really like the Kingmaker AP series. My smallish group ( a subset of a larger group I'm part of who cannot play on weeknights - which is easier for me:) ) is having a blast playing the game so far.
All of my players are willing to accept just about any premise to go on an adventure so they are an easy audience. From the DM perspective though I also want to get pulled into the "adventure". If I'm not excited to run it then the game will end-up dying on the vine.
Paizo's approach follows the hallmarks of good adventure writing - let the DM tell his own story. Note that this is vastly different from fiction writing - an rpg adventure that tells somebody else's story usually frustrates DM's and makes it harder to justify events that take place.
This approach can also have the opposite effect on some DM's by leaving him to ask questions such as "Why would adventurerers get involved with this" like the OP.
I've taken bits from the Chronicles Gazeteer, the Campaign hardcover and the Kingmaker Player's Guide, my player's character class selections and various articles from Wolfgang Baur, Ed Greenwood and Katherine Kerr (from some of Kobold's products and old Dragon magazine articles) and mushed this into a cohesive (enough for my players that is) and successfully engaged them in the adventure.
The group consists of 4 players:
1. Human inquisitor of Abadar
2. Human cavalier, low in the house who decided to become a Knight of Keys (Order of the Star dedicated to Abadar that I'm testing the PF Faction rules with)
3. Human druid who venerates Erastil
4. Elven Wizard (this is a new player who has joined and I'm still working him into the story but the elf/fey connection to Kingmaker will allow for some good linkage)
Character 1 and 2 had a background of being in the Restov Militia group, "The Restov Regulars" as part of their early careers. While one had minor noble house ties it wasn't enough to let him live in the lap of luxury. Their cohort priest, a follower of Abadar himself, became fast friends with them and set the characters on their current paths - as a protector (the cavalier) and marshal (inquisitor) of the First Vault.
Character 3 grew up in the surrounds of Restov. While bringing the sheep home that had strayed a bit far he felt eyes watching him from a copse of woods. His mind was touched by a hungry wolf that, instead of fending it off with his staff, befriended the animal (ala animal companion). Over the months he and the wolf bonded but the family farm was not doing well. The family patriarch fell ill and soon died. The land that the family farmed was invested in by a priest of Abadar (the former cohort priest from Characters 1 and 2 )who demanded payment for his tithes. Not having enough goods or gold to pay and deeming that lending the family the money was no longer a wise investment the services of the oldest son (the druid) would be enough to cover their debt.
Combining this background with the civil unrest that is going on provided the perfect backdrop to insert the Church of Abadar's influence into the Swordlord's charter. Abadar, with a portfolio, that includes cities - decided to invest in this venture to expand the borders and potentially provide some stability to the growing unrest.
As part of the metagame that takes place between the years that Kingmaker can cover there will be some potential Game of Thrones type events that occur within Brevoy...if my players want to do that:)
So in summary - Kingmaker provides a great framework to lay your game upon. Providing decisions to your questions regarding "why" is part of the fun to some.
Later,
Greg Volz
Good questions. My players stay out.
I'm right there with you, so I changed the beginning some. My players are starting off in Rostov on a bar brawling charge. The swordlord gets them off scott free if they do some work for him. (Enter module 1). What the players don't know and learn later is that the swordlord hired the other adventuring companies and ran out of money on the last group. So instead of paying this group, he found a group that would work for free. His attitude is is if they die, he lost nothing and he'll find another group that will work for free again with the same method.
Additionally, any support from the sword lords (aka the first 50 bp) is a "loan" that must be paid back within 5 years (with interest).
I've found that Kingmaker requires a lot of pre work from the GM to make it work plausibly. Starting the AP cold straight from the book won't work easily. I've had my players spending about 6 weeks of gaming before they got to Oleg's so that they are understanding of the political background to the charter that they've been given. Even then they are querying why they should be entrusted with it - I have to be honest and say (IMHO) that the official reason given for Restov's 'hands off' approach is weak.
I also find that the layout & order of the AP's for Kingmaker are not massively GM friendly. They could be structured slightly differently. I'm not criticising the AP itself which I think is great. It's just not user friendly from a time stretched GM perspective.
It is not DM friendly because of its openness. The ones(adventures) that are easiest for most DM's are one layered with railroads.
Good questions. My players stay out.
** spoiler omitted **
that is a lot of payback
IMO, but you are changing a lot about the mod
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I wouldn't say changing so much as filling in the blanks. According to the AP the player's are to:
1. Use the Kingmaker campaign traits as justification for being interested in the Stolen Lands or
2. Answer the open roll call for the charter at Oleg's.
Giving someone the funds to start a colony and expecting something in return seems reasonable. The swordlords are facing civil war, an internal powerstruggle that resulted in the ruling family going missing, and who knows what else.
Embellishing the adventure to give the players more stake in the game is a good way to create excitement.
Good questions. My players stay out.
** spoiler omitted **
that is a lot of payback
IMO, but you are changing a lot about the mod
Good questions. My players stay out.
** spoiler omitted **
Keep in mind that BP is not necessarily cash. I assumed that a good portion of the initial BP is the things colonists are taking with them or are being given for colonizing. Livestock, wood, and similar resources. Its much more believable to say the swordlords are giving 1000 colonists 10 acres and a team of oxen and expecting you to find a place for them than it is for them to give you cash, which you will then need to convert.
"It is not DM friendly because of its openness. The ones(adventures) that are easiest for most DM's are one layered with railroads."
Sorry but thats a very poor excuse. Case in point:
% chance of random encounters page 13 (after the encounter at Oleg's)
Random encounter table page 75 in the Bestiary section.It's little things like that I get annoyed at (particularly when I'm prepping the next session at 11pm at night!). The AP itself is great just as a GM it doesn't make my life easy when looking for info at times.
I guess that could be annoying, but I hate changing books, and I would probably just choose a monster to put there.
I also thought you meant it was hard because the players' choices can gave you flipping pages instead of going from page 1 then 2 then 3, and so on.