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Thinking about playing a Goliath sometime in the future (I have to finish the latter half of Crimson Throne, first). Someone here was nice enough to make a conversion of the 4e Goliath and that's below. Someone from EN World did a 3.5 conversion for PF and that's below, too.
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma: Goliaths are strong and tough, but standoffish.
Medium : Goliaths are medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties because of their size.
Normal Speed: Base speed for a goliath is 30 ft.
Mountain Folk: Goliaths recieve a +2 bonus on Climb and Knowledge (Nature) checks.
Stone's Endurance: Goliaths recieve a +1 natural armor bonus to Armor Class.
Tenacity: Goliaths recieve a +2 bonus to Will saves.
Languages: Goliaths begin play seaking Common and Giant. Goliaths wth high Inteligence scores can choose from the following: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Orc, and Terran.
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity. Goliaths are strong and powerful, but not graceful.
Medium Size: Goliaths are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size, but see powerful-build below.
Normal Speed: Goliaths have a base speed is 30 feet.
Giant Subtype: A goliath has the giant subtype and is count as a humanoid (giant) for any effect related to race.
Darkvision: A goliath can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Mountaineer: A Goliath has a +2 to climb and survival checks, thanks to their mountain heritage.
Powerful Build: Whenever a goliath is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for CMB, the goliath is treated as large if doing so is advantageous to him. A goliath is also considered to be large when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A goliath can use weapons designed for a large creature without the -2 penalty (but the weapon size increases from light to one-handed or one-handed to two-handed). However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. If a spell or effect changes the goliath’s size to large or larger, the abilities of the spell or effect override the effects of powerful build.
Languages: Goliaths begin play speaking Common and Giant. Goliaths with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Dwarven, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran.
I prefer the one from 3.5, I think. Lacking the Powerful Build in some fashion makes it feel not very Goliath-y. I like that the conversion doesn't basically include Monkey Grip which is a frakkin' disaster of a feat. Do you fine gentlemen and ladies have any thoughts on either conversion before I try and present something to my GM.
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I would like to know why you consider monkey grip a 'disaster of a feat' before I make any commentary on the conversions lol.
Oh, I just think there's a bit of insanity possible there. There aren't many feats that just add damage no problem except for Weapon Specialization. Monkey Grip adds as much as 3.5 damage on average, which is even better that Weapon Spec.
What bothers me most is that Goliath got the feat as a racial feature along with a bunch of other stuff. I don't think it ought to, especially without the level adjustment. I's just as soon take powerful build down to just a size modifier for CMB and CMD, even though the weapon usage of powerful build in this conversion is not terribly useful.
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The +3.5 damage would be fine if there was only a -1 to hit, as it stood in 3.5e the feat gave you a net -4 (-2 for inappropriate size, -2 per the feat) for using a large-size two-hander. -4 = 4 feats (see weapon focus), +3.5 damage = 2 feats (weapon spec.)
You were basically taking a feat to get two feats behind.
Even if the -2 for inappropriate size didn't come into play, you were still gaining nothing unless you already had ridiculous to-hits.
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3.5 damage is nothing lol, if somebody wants to waste a feat on an amount of damage that small it's their choice to make. I know I would never take it, especially with the penalty it had in 3.5 (if bigger weapons were available, like heavy weapons or a fullblade or such I'd consider it without the penalty.)Different playstyles I suppose. Good luck with your conversion though.
That's ridiculous. Fighters routinely spend a feat on just 2 damage. You pay thousands of gold for that much extra damage.
Goliaths getting an extra die's worth of damage as a racial ability is too much to have without a level adjustment.
I like the 3.5 conversion. I really like what they did with Powerful Build. It is interesting, not game breaking and can be useful in some cases. It was ridiculous in 3.5 IMHO.
I would use it.
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Some reason you can't just use the 3.5 version as is and toss out the LA? The core races should now be up to about it's power.
And yeah, Monkey Grip was ridiculous. People wielding Large Fullblades. -.-
The penalties to hit were negotiable, especially once you started looking at Shock Trooper. Then your power attack was hitting your AC instead of your to Hit and a -4 wasn't much at all.
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Some reason you can't just use the 3.5 version as is and toss out the LA? The core races should now be up to about it's power.
And yeah, Monkey Grip was ridiculous. People wielding Large Fullblades. -.-
I could use the 3.5 version and just never use a large weapon. But I'm also uncomfortable with the 4 net stat bonuses and monstrous humanoid type which makes them untargetable for many spells.
I did a pathfinder conversion that can be found at mediafire.com/ElghinnLightbringer.
it sounds to me like you just really don't like the concept of the race.
they are supposed to be big monstrous people who use big weapons, is sounds like you have a problem with all of that.
what is it about the race that you like, what is it that makes you want to play one?
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it sounds to me like you just really don't like the concept of the race.
they are supposed to be big monstrous people who use big weapons, is sounds like you have a problem with all of that.
what is it about the race that you like, what is it that makes you want to play one?
I like the non-crunch stuff better than the crunch stuff for the most part. They have an interesting society and look. I dig that.
I'm not against wielding a really big axe. The character will. But powerful build was downright unfair so the mechanics of that have to go. It'll be a big axe, commensurate with an 8-foot tall fellow. But scamming an extra d6 damage out of a race is kind of unbalanced, especially without a level adjustment as Goliaths had in 3.5.
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Wups, you said net stat benefit, not increase to a single stat. My bad, Hobgoblins apply though.
Good point, though I am not generally in the practice of justifying things based on a single exception to the rule.
I'm not trying to scam better stats or something out of this race. For the particular stats I'm looking for I can actually get a better array with a human (we use point buy) because of the Dex penalty. I really like the flavor of the race and I'm trying mostly to just convert the race so that it is balanced with the core seven.
Does anyone think that the conversion is unbalanced (strong or weak) vs the core seven?
If you feel powerful build is too much, tack on another -2 to int or cha
(and monkey grip WAS terrible, except in sunder builds.)
YuenglingDragon Said - Thanks for the link. I talked to my GM about keeping +4 Str in the race and was shut down. As long as Pathfinder continues to not have anything with better than +2 net stat benefits, our conversions won't either.
Thats actually how my group was converting races until we realized that there are a few different exceptions to the rule of net +2. Hobgoblins aren't the only exception. Aasimars and the Suli (Quadira page 29) also have a +4 overall. Merfolk even have a +6 overall (but admittedly they do have some other drawbacks)
If you feel powerful build is too much, tack on another -2 to int or cha
(and monkey grip WAS terrible, except in sunder builds.)
Powerful build will still be too much even if you tack on -4 int and cha. A beatstick isn't going to care about int and cha unless they actually start hurting the ability to hit things in combat.
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Powerful build will still be too much even if you tack on -4 int and cha. A beatstick isn't going to care about int and cha unless they actually start hurting the ability to hit things in combat.If you feel powerful build is too much, tack on another -2 to int or cha
(and monkey grip WAS terrible, except in sunder builds.)
They will when you inform them that anyone talking at a normal level is too complicated to understand when you dump your int to 5. Or that everyone, and I mean *everyone* hates you when you have a cha of 5 (and that you're easily pushed around by others).
Heck, even a Maze spell defeats a <10 int character for quite a while.I don't know about you, but even the beatsticks in the games I've played have been annoyed at a low mental stat at *some* point each 2-3 sessions. The monk in my Kingmaker campaign is irritated because he doesn't have the int for combat expertise, for example. The druid doesn't have much Cha and has more than once screwed up because of it (wild empathy, be damned!). The Barbarian can't do *anything* except hit things, so he gets to sit out anything that isn't an active combat (which is frequent).
Anyway, a +1-3 average damage isn't a *huge* feature, considering you need immense weapons (that you'll always have to custom order) to utilize it, the weapons cost more (double, in fact) *and* you may not be able to use the weapon in many situations.
Unfortunately weapon size doesn't scale perfectly linearly. 1d4>1d6>1d8>1d10>1d12 just fine. But 1d8>2d6 big leap yikes!
Anyway, a +3.5 to damage (2d6>3d6 for large greatsword for example) with a built-in -2 to hit isn't really that bad. You gotta think that a +2 to str is a +1.5 to damage, as well as +2 hit. All it really is is an extra step of Power Attack.
At first level it's relatively powerful, I won't disagree. But as you level up it becomes really pretty insignificant.
I think I would switch the stat modifiers to +2 Con, +2 Wis, -2 Cha, and expand Powerful Build to include carrying capacity as well. I think balancing mental and physical stats is generally worthwhile with Pathfinder conversions.
Out of curiosity, has everyone ditched the level adjustment concept when converting races like the goliath from 3.5 to PF?
I'd still be inclined to keep the level adjustment in, and allow a player to buy it off later with xp (as per the Unearthed Arcana rules, which I believe are part of the 3.5 SRD).
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Powerful build = +1 level adjustment. Period.
The ability is better than Power Attack or Weapon Specialization. It's better than being Size Large. It, by itself, with absolutely nothing else at all, still makes a race have a +1 level adjustment.
With the +1 level adjustment, the 3.5 conversion is reasonable.
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Powerful build = +1 level adjustment. Period.
The ability is better than Power Attack or Weapon Specialization. It's better than being Size Large. It, by itself, with absolutely nothing else at all, still makes a race have a +1 level adjustment.
With the +1 level adjustment, the 3.5 conversion is reasonable.
I disagree on this note, simply because incorporation of level adjustments is itself NOT a true conversion since PF does not have level adjustments. In addition I disagree that Powerful Build is "that" powerful, compare a goliath in its current form to that of the Half-Ogre, which also has no level adjustment.
A simple way to fix the race IMO is to simply drop the +2 Str and even maybe the +2 to climb from the stat block. Powerful build is the race DEFINING feature they have, just like the bonus feat for humans or Slow but Steady.
Leaving them ...
+2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity.
Medium Size: Goliaths are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size, but see powerful-build below.
Normal Speed: Goliaths have a base speed is 30 feet.
Giant Subtype: A goliath has the giant subtype and is count as a humanoid (giant) for any effect related to race.
Darkvision: A goliath can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Powerful Build: Whenever a goliath is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for CMB, the goliath is treated as large if doing so is advantageous to him. A goliath is also considered to be large when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A goliath can use weapons designed for a large creature without the -2 penalty (but the weapon size increases from light to one-handed or one-handed to two-handed). However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. If a spell or effect changes the goliath’s size to large or larger, the abilities of the spell or effect override the effects of powerful build.
Languages: Goliaths begin play speaking Common and Giant. Goliaths with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Dwarven, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran.
Level adjustments do not exist and the race must be of total CR of less than 1 to qualify as a normal PC playable race, at least according to precedent.
I love the race flavor for the Goliath too. I played one in 3.5 for that alone.
I agree that dropping the +2 to Strength is a good option to further balance Powerful Build. I also agree with Carbon that the Mighty Build fits the Goliath too well to drop or gimp it. I mean, there's a reason that people use goliath to describe something that is large. Get rid of the Mighty Build and you've just got a really tall human with a unique culture and other-human stats.
Keep powerful build and make it a CR 1/2 similiar to a tiefling. Look at the rules for gimping a tiefling to Core Race levels and convert or except it as not a big deal.
So fluff wise what would you say the Goliath's background is. I feel they would work better as beings that live along the mountains of the Crown of the World.
What balanced Powerful Build was the fact that you were not a humanoid. A regular human can just chug an enlarge person potion and get that higher damage, along with reach that you cannot get. Even if you took the Barbarian racial sub. level to *really* become large; it explicitly didn't stack w/ your powerful build, all it did was give you the ability modifiers, space, reach, and attack and AC penalty a real large creature has.
Also, not long after Goliath came out, MIC introduced the Strongarm Bracers, for 6000 gp to use a weapon one size larger than normal w/o penalty. And it explciitly did not stack w/ powerful build. So now the human with that and enlarge is actually dishing out more damage that the Goliath, making paying the level adjustment for goliath leaving you feeling like...well, a chump, honestly.
Just setting the record straight in the face of so much, "OMG powerful build was so brokenz!" cries. Also note that paizo gave druids a feat option for basically every aspect of powerful build other than the ability to swing a bigger weapon (probably because barring elemental form, you...can't use a weapon at all...) in the form of the Powerful Wildshape feat, or whatever it was called.
I have played a goliath, and it has been my favorite character to date. He wielded a large greataxe and at early levels, he was a major factor in determining which way combats went. At level two, he crit a monster for 60 damage, effectively one-shotting the thing.
He was also in a party of 6 or 7, sometimes 8 depending on who showed up. The only people he really outshined were the people who weren't actively engaged in the game. Everyone remembers when he would crit, but few remember the number of times he would throw his axe on accident, or when he would fail his reflex saves miserably.
TL;DR: Even though goliaths have these huge numbers associated with them, they ultimately fall in line with other characters. It's common knowledge that weapon damage is not as significant as static bonuses to damage, so that extra d6 will be forgotten well into mid levels.
Slight necro, but I wanted to chime in since I used info from this thread for my latest campaign. I've got a Goliath Barbarian and in our first session, all level one characters, he squashed an owlbear with two shots.
I am definitely in the +0 LA camp, but that had me wondering a little bit. I think the circumstances have a lot to do with how that happened though. The biggest factor for this PC was that he rolled a natural 18 for his STR stat. This started him at 20 which was effectively the same as +4 in 3.5.
I also allowed him to use the Goliath Greathammer. I followed what seems to be the basic rule with PF that anything with "X" in the title, in this case "goliath", implies automatic proficiency. My only question was why this weapon comes in different sizes. Since there seemed to be no explaination, we went with the large size which does 3d6. With his STR bonus and this piano on a stick, not to mention the only attack in a surprise round and first in initiative for first round, he didn't even need to crit the thing (though he nearly did). It was soup.
I got to thinking though that our Half-Orc Fighter, who also rolled 18 for STR, weilding his Falcion, would have done just about the same thing. Especially when you consdier that the second attack roll of the Goliath would have been a crit for the Half-orc.
I agree that though he seems like the Hulk now, he'll level out with everyone in half a dozen levels or so.
I did make one adjustment to the conversion though. I gave him this, "Intimidating Prowess: As feat, but only against medium, or smaller, non-Goliath humanoids." It didn't make sense that our 40 lb. Halfling Bard would be more intimidating than the Goliath.
Here is the updated conversion I decided to use:
Goliath - Pathfinder
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity. Goliaths are strong and powerful, but not graceful.
Medium Size: Goliaths are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size, but see powerful-build below.
Normal Speed: Goliaths have a base speed is 30 feet.
Giant Blood: Goliaths count as both human and humanoid (giant) for any effect related to race.
Darkvision: A goliath can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Mountaineer: A Goliath has a +2 to climb and survival checks, thanks to their mountain heritage.
Powerful Build: Whenever a goliath is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for CMB, the goliath is treated as large if doing so is advantageous to him. A goliath is also considered to be large when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A goliath can use weapons designed for a large creature without the -2 penalty (but the weapon size increases from light to one-handed or one-handed to two-handed). However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. If a spell or effect changes the goliath’s size to large or larger, the abilities of the spell or effect override the effects of powerful build.
Intimidating Prowess: As feat, but only against medium, or smaller, non-Goliath humanoids.
Proficient with all Simple weapons, and treat any weapon with the word “goliath” in its name as a martial weapon, but no armor or shields.
Languages: Goliaths begin play speaking Common and Giant. Goliaths with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Dwarven, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran.
Whoops! Sorry for the triple post, but there's no edit feature. I forgot this write-up didn't include the larger weapons language. Added here.
Goliath - Pathfinder
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity. Goliaths are strong and powerful, but not graceful.
Medium Size: Goliaths are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size, but see powerful-build below.
Normal Speed: Goliaths have a base speed is 30 feet.
Giant Blood: Goliaths count as both human and humanoid (giant) for any effect related to race.
Darkvision: A goliath can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Mountaineer: A Goliath has a +2 to climb and survival checks, thanks to their mountain heritage.
Powerful Build: Whenever a goliath is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for CMB, the goliath is treated as large if doing so is advantageous to him. A goliath is also considered to be large when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A goliath can use weapons designed for a large creature without the -2 penalty (but the weapon size increases from light to one-handed or one-handed to two-handed). However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. If a spell or effect changes the goliath’s size to large or larger, the abilities of the spell or effect override the effects of powerful build. Additionally, goliaths can wield weapons one size category larger without penalty.
Intimidating Prowess: As feat, but only against medium, or smaller, non-Goliath humanoids.
Proficient with all Simple weapons, and treat any weapon with the word “goliath” in its name as a martial weapon, but no armor or shields.
Languages: Goliaths begin play speaking Common and Giant. Goliaths with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Dwarven, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran.
Dotting for when I dig up my Goliath conversion.
Wow, I'm really bad at proofreading apparently... Fixed.
Goliath - Pathfinder
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity. Goliaths are strong and powerful, but not graceful.
Medium Size: Goliaths are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size, but see powerful-build below.
Normal Speed: Goliaths have a base speed is 30 feet.
Giant Blood: Goliaths count as both human and humanoid (giant) for any effect related to race.
Darkvision: A goliath can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Mountaineer: A Goliath has a +2 to climb and survival checks, thanks to their mountain heritage.
Powerful Build: Whenever a goliath is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for CMB, the goliath is treated as large if doing so is advantageous to him. A goliath is also considered to be large when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A goliath can use weapons designed for a large creature without the -2 penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. If a spell or effect changes the goliath’s size to large or larger, the abilities of the spell or effect override the effects of powerful build.
Intimidating Prowess: As feat, but only against medium, or smaller, non-Goliath humanoids.
Proficient with all Simple weapons, and treat any weapon with the word “goliath” in its name as a martial weapon, but no armor or shields.
Languages: Goliaths begin play speaking Common and Giant. Goliaths with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Dwarven, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran.
15 or less is easily PC level. 16+ can be if it is used sparingly.
I've heard of it, but don't have that book. I'd be interested in looking at it, but I think this build works pretty nicely.
You can access it on the PRD.
And it is a nice build.
My Goliath came out to 12 RP before Powerful Build.
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Powerful Build is about 4points? You can have toned down version for 3 points maybe that only works for CMD/CMB, carrying capacity and count as large against certain attacks (like swallow whole).
Check the PRD or if I get some time I could give it a try, since I used it for building my own Minotaur conversion(from Krynn).
I'd just bypass the whole "powerful build" thing and make it a large creature myself.
Powerful Build is there to represent the fact that they are only a little (in the grand scheme) larger than the biggest Orc but smaller than an Ogre.
Personally I would just make them Medium with a Enlarge Person SLA.
I did a Goliath conversion, but stayed true to the original goliath stats, plus, I did the powerful build as a 6 point.
Goliath
Type:
3 RP Monstrous Humanoid
Size:
0 RP Medium
Base Speed:
0 RP Normal
Ability Score Modifier:
0 RP Standard (+2 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom)
Language:
0 RP Standard
Racial Traits:
Ability Score Racial Trait:
4 RP Advanced Strength (+2 Strength)
4 RP Advanced Constitution (+2 Constitution)
Feat and Skill Racial Traits:
1 RP Mountain-Born
2 RP Skill Bonus (Sense Motive)
Movement Racial Traits:
2 RP Jumper
1 RP Mountaineer
Offense Racial Traits:
6 RP Powerful Build
1 RP Weapon Familiarity
Senses Racial Traits:
- RP Darkvision 60 ft.
Total: 24 RP
Goliath Racial Traits (Monstrous Humanoid)
Powerful Build: The physical stature of a goliath lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category larger. Whenever a goliath is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as CMB or CMD), the goliath is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him. A goliath is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A goliath can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.
Weapon Familiarity: Goliath are proficient with all simple weapons, and treat any weapon with the word “goliath” in its name as a martial weapon.
Languages: Goliaths begin play speaking Gol-Kaa. Those with high Int scores can choose from the following bonus languages: Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Terran.
Replaced by Jumper, Mountain-Born and Mountaineer:
Mountain Movement: Because goliaths practically live on the ledges and cliffs of the most forbidding mountains, they are particularly adept at negotiating mountain hazards. Goliaths can make standing long jumps and high jumps as if they were running long jumps and high jumps. A goliath can engage in accelerated climbing (climbing half his speed as a move action) without taking the –5 penalty on the Athletic checks.
Acclimated: Goliaths are automatically acclimated to life at high altitude. They don’t take the penalties for altitude described in the Mountain Travel, unlike other denizens of the mountains, goliaths don’t lose their acclimation to high altitude even if they spend a long time at a lower elevation.
That Weapon Familiarity trait would be expensive.
After all it is fairly locked down in the Number of weapons you choose.
Honestly I can see them not having any weapon Familiarity.
And honestly I think Powerful Build should be 4-5 RP Max. It isn't as advantageous as it seems. Make it limited to Medium creatures and it becomes even less so.
Aren't the ability score modifiers and Ability score racial traits a little redundant in this build?
I'm not familiar with this system, but it looks effective. What is the RP range of a standard race like Dwarf and Human? At what point is a level adjustment warrented?