When you damage an opponent while power attacking you can intimidate as a free action.
I don't remember what Cornugun Smash does. I'll have to dig out my Cheliax book when I get home.
With regards to the sword and board TWF (Defender of the Weak) are Rapier/Scimitar still the usual weapons of choice? The Urumi (1d8 18-20/x2) looks like a solid choice for this build, but is it worth an exotic weapons proficiency feat in an already feat starved build?
Another question, regarding preferred feat selection, what about swapping out improved and greater bull rush for following step and step up and strike? The latter would seem to be useful against a greater range of opponents and give the build some really nice mobility pursuant to defending the party.
Is the Falcatta a viable weapon in a Defender of the weak build? Like Jon Kines asked, would burning a feat on Exotic weapon proficiency be worth it? If it does, then does that make pursuing the critical feats less attractive?
I'm also curious on the viability of following step, and step up and strike.
Also, has anyone who's played a similar build found that they used bull rushes a lot? How often does it get used in later levels?
I'm DM'ing Carrion Crown these days, but I'm actually going to get to play in Jade Regent. In the meantime, I'm working on builds for the big 4 classes so I can fill whatever role is needed. I actually think step up/following step/step up and strike looks perfect for this build on paper for what it does for your manuverability and aggregate threat capacity. Also it is useful against a greater number of potential enemies then the greater and improved bull rush line, so this is how I plan to go.
The other build I'm considering is a Two-handed fighter (Falchion) shatter defenses build. I'm probably going to post both here in hopes that Eidolon and the rest of the community picks them apart and gives me a good critique.
Is the Falcatta a viable weapon in a Defender of the weak build? Like Jon Kines asked, would burning a feat on Exotic weapon proficiency be worth it? If it does, then does that make pursuing the critical feats less attractive?
I'm also curious on the viability of following step, and step up and strike.
Also, has anyone who's played a similar build found that they used bull rushes a lot? How often does it get used in later levels?
I'm DM'ing Carrion Crown these days, but I'm actually going to get to play in Jade Regent. In the meantime, I'm working on builds for the big 4 classes so I can fill whatever role is needed. I actually think step up/following step/step up and strike looks perfect for this build on paper for what it does for your manuverability and aggregate threat capacity. Also it is useful against a greater number of potential enemies then the greater and improved bull rush line, so this is how I plan to go. If I can make the feats work, I'll probably go Urumi for primary weapon as its basically a buffed scimitar.
The other build I'm considering is a Two-handed fighter (Falchion) shatter defenses build. I'm probably going to post both here in hopes that Eidolon and the rest of the community picks them apart and gives me a good critique.
When you damage an opponent while power attacking you can intimidate as a free action.
I don't remember what Cornugun Smash does. I'll have to dig out my Cheliax book when I get home.With regards to the sword and board TWF (Defender of the Weak) are Rapier/Scimitar still the usual weapons of choice? The Urumi (1d8 18-20/x2) looks like a solid choice for this build, but is it worth an exotic weapons proficiency feat in an already feat starved build?
Another question, regarding preferred feat selection, what about swapping out improved and greater bull rush for following step and step up and strike? The latter would seem to be useful against a greater range of opponents and give the build some really nice mobility pursuant to defending the party.
The urumi is definitely not worth a feat unless it fits your concept for roleplaying reasons. +1 damage just doesn't cut it. It is slightly more likely to be worth it if you want around Enlarged in all major fights.
Step up and Strike is amazing. If I ever get around to doing the APG feats, those will definitely be added.
As to falcata, it breaks the typical pattern for an exotic weapon by being overpowered compared to every exotic weapon in the book, even if you think that having bigger and bigger damage from criticals can be justified by decreasing the damage dice (which is generally an OK assumption as long as you don't take it to extremes and make an exotic weapon that does 1d3 as a two-handed weapon and has 18-20/x3 or something). If it was a two-handed weapon or did 1d6, it would follow the formula for every other high-end exotic and martial weapon.
The fact that it breaks the chart makes it a solid choice if you don't want to get as much use out of the Xing Critical feats. It's probably the only exotic weapon that's better enough than the equivalent martial weapon to make EWP a good choice for a feat--so to conclude on the falcata: if you were already going to be wielding a longsword or battleaxe (and if you didn't have a roleplaying reason to use an iconic weapon like those), take EWP and use a falcata because you just got Improved Critical at 1st level that stacks with the regular Improved Critical.
The urumi is definitely not worth a feat unless it fits your concept for roleplaying reasons. +1 damage just doesn't cut it. It is slightly more likely to be worth it if you want around Enlarged in all major fights.
I think you are right, my thinking was to swap out improved critical for EWP Urumi for the +1 and then be sure I get keen enchanted on my weapon to compensate, but on further thought I'm willing to concede it's most likely not worth it. When I get a change I'm going to post a 2H and Sword and Board build for you to look over, I'd like to get your thoughts if you don't mind. I've been in DM mode for over a decade so need to shake off the player rust. From a playstyle standpoint I'm leaning towards the Sword and Board build, but my inner theorycrafter is telling me 2 Hand fighter archetype will probably come out ahead numerically.
Here are two of the builds I'm considering, we get one APG trait and one campaign specific trait so I included the APG trait in the build. Killer seems an obvious choice for both, since they are both crit builds to a degree. Jade Regent player's guide isn't out yet so no clue on campaign traits. Also AP's tend to go to ~15, so I built accordingly.
I. Two-Handed Fighter (APG archetype)
Race: Human
Trait: Killer (adds crit modifier to damage on a successful crit)
Stats: (20 point buy)
Str 19 (13) Dex 14 (5) Con 14 (5) Int 7 (-4) Wis 14 (5) Cha 7 (-2)
Feats:
1: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Falchion), Toughness
2: Intimidating Prowess
3: Step Up
4: Weapon Specialization (Falchion)
5: Combat Reflexes
6: Dazzling Display
7: Following Step
8: Step Up and Strike
9: Shatter Defenses
10: Greater Weapon Focus (Falchion)
11: Deadly Stroke
12. Improved Critical (Falchion)
13. Greater Weapon Specialization
14. Critical Focus
15. Staggering Critical
II. Sword and Board TWF
Race: Human
Trait: Killer (add crit mod to damage on a crit)
Stats: (20 point buy)
Str 18 (10) Dex 16 (10) Con 14 (5) Int 7 (-4) Wis 13 (3) Cha 7 (-4)
Feats:
1: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Exotic Weapon (Falcata)
2: Power Attack
3: Weapon Focus (Falcata)
4: Step Up
5: Combat Reflexes
6: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7: Shield Slam
8: Following Step
9: Step Up and Strike
10. Improved Critical (Falcata)
11. Shield Mastery
12. Critical Focus
13. Staggering Critical
14. Double Slice
15. Two Weapon Rend
If I end up filling the fighter role in Jade Regent, it will be one of these two builds or a variation thereof. I really like the playstyle of the Sword and Board TWF, however the 2 hand build with overhand chop, backswing, an greater power attack looks monstrous. It's a good thing I'll be DM'ing Carrion Crown for a while yet as I'm torn. Feel free to skewer these ideas as exigent, feedback is always appreciated.
Step up and Strike is amazing. If I ever get around to doing the APG feats, those will definitely be added.
Those feats are great for staying sticky with your opponent.
Much more vital for TWF style melee'rs, since they suffer more on standard action attacks.Fighters can afford the whole line (just), but TWF is already feat intensive.
For rangers, cavaliers etc, following step should be enough. (Its more about keeping within full attack range)
an alternative though is quickdraw. If an opponent moves away more than a 5ft step (provoking) then you could drop your swords (weapon cords attached) and throw a full attacks worth of Chakrams at him. Even without them being enchanted to the eyeballs, most enemies can't survive 2 full attacks of a TWF (you would get Doubleslice and TWRend on the Chakrams). Carry enough and you can full attack/throw at your next opponent, to get him to come to you. Recover your swords as a swift.
Addmittedly this tactic, becomes costly to enchant as you level. Not sure if you can make an 'efficient quiver/throwing sheath' like the one jarlaxle had in the salvatore novels (you could rule the daggers/Chakrams disappear/become non-magic after they hit)
A TWF build isn't a TWF Thrown Weapon build. I don't think you'd get your TWF bonuses on the Chakram, although you might get the extra attacks.
And is it a swift to recover your weapons or a move?
The key idea behind the Step Up series is to continously threaten, moreso then keeping them in full attack range. The more AoO's you get, the tougher you are.
==Aelryinth
|
Nice guide, but I have a few comments:
a: I think you may be undervaluing battlefield control feats such as Lunge amd Step Up.
b: Why not any builds that specialize in combat maneuvers such as trip / grapple. Both can have pretty amazing potential to swing fights in your groups favor.
c: also some thought on archetypes from the APG would not be wrong.
Nice guide, but I have a few comments:
a: I think you may be undervaluing battlefield control feats such as Lunge amd Step Up.
b: Why not any builds that specialize in combat maneuvers such as trip / grapple. Both can have pretty amazing potential to swing fights in your groups favor.
c: also some thought on archetypes from the APG would not be wrong.
Hi Matthew--I'm glad you enjoyed the guide! A few thoughts on your comments--
a) I love battlefield control feats. For the two you mentioned--Lunge is not one of them since it ends after your turn and thus doesn't increase your threatened area for the purpose of AoOs--if it did, it would be rated higher. I have already rated Step-Up highly. It's either green or blue in every melee build (remember, blue means you more-or-less always have to take it, and green means it's a good feat, but not necessarily a must-have for everyone). If you meant the later APG feats that require Step-Up, those are even more awesome, but I wrote the guide before the APG, and it doesn't include any APG content (this is also why no archetypes, as in (c) )
b) Trip is quite nice, and it's listed in the feats section as Green for every melee build because of it. If it didn't require 13 Int and the awful-in-Pathfinder Combat Expertise feat, it would be blue in two of them. I don't really think that a player would need a separate build section to play a tripper--just use one of the builds I've provided and take the three feats to have Greater Trip, choosing a (reach if you're a Bruiser) weapon with the Trip descriptor if possible as your weapon of choice.
As for Grapple, it's nice, but it's just not what the Fighter is best at after Paizo gave the Fighter class some wonderful wonderful buffs in Pathfinder. You would be throwing away a lot of your advantages, and should leave the grappling to the Monk or someone who can Polymorph into big dangerous things with Grab (such as the Druid) or even the Barbarian if necessary. This is mainly because there is no such thing as a 'Grapple' weapon that lets you add your weapon bonuses to your CMB for Grapple like there is for trip, so you lose out on the amazing Weapon Training class feature that puts you ahead of every other melee class unless they are an their optimal condition (smiting Paladin, Ranger vs his Favored Enemy, and so on). Since Barbarians do get to apply their main advantage (the extra Strength from Rage) and Monks and Wildshaped creatures do a lot more base damage with the two chances to squeeze them from Greater Grapple, this gives them all the edge over the Fighter in this arena. Heck, even Rangers can apply their Favored Enemy bonus to CMB for Grapple and Paladins can apply their Smite bonus. Fighter is the only class whose extra to-hit ability is nullified by grappling. If you want to play a Brawling Fighter who Grapples thing and uses Unarmed Strike attacks, I highly recommend playing a Monk and roleplaying yourself as a soldier/fighter type anyway--maybe take a 1 or 2 level dip in Fighter for armor if that's in your concept and just lose out on Wis to AC and Fast Movement.
Hope this helps explain my guide!
~RE
A TWF build isn't a TWF Thrown Weapon build. I don't think you'd get your TWF bonuses on the Chakram, although you might get the extra attacks.
And is it a swift to recover your weapons or a move?
The key idea behind the Step Up series is to continously threaten, moreso then keeping them in full attack range. The more AoO's you get, the tougher you are.
==Aelryinth
It is a swift to recover weapons if you have weapon cords.
I agree the step up chain is great but 3 more feats in a feat intensive build is ALOT to ask. Like i said, fighters can do it. Both to threaten and maintain being adjacent.
Say an enemy you've full attacked moves away 15 ft, you can follow for 10 and hit them for AOO as they leave your new threatened square, then on your turn 5ft step and full attack.
Nice, but consider Chakrams and Quickdraw
Enemy moves 5ft- on your turn 5ft step and full attack.
or
If enemy moves any greater distance (up to 30ft) then take your AOO.
Next round you can simply TWF/throw with both hands. You wouldn't get Wpn Fcs etc. But other bonuses like Smite, challenge, favored enemy, Two Weapon Training (which for a Two Weapon Warrior archetype applies not matter what your holding as long as you full attack)
all apply normally. Doubleslice and Two Weapon Rend, Power attack also work.
I'm not.saying throwing is something to build around. Just saying that TWF builds rely on full attacks, are feat hungry and usually suck at range.
Quickdraw+Chakrams gives you a 30ft ranged option (also nice if you encounter difficult terrain) for the cost of 1 feat instead of many (3 for Stepup chain or more if you try to bow as well)
The choice is between move+1 attack with a primary hand (applying Wpn focus/spl) or go to a less awesome weapon but still get 7 or 8 attacks off with PA, Doubleslice, Two Wpn Rend and most of your other bonuses applying normally.
Here are two of the builds I'm considering, we get one APG trait and one campaign specific trait so I included the APG trait in the build. Killer seems an obvious choice for both, since they are both crit builds to a degree. Jade Regent player's guide isn't out yet so no clue on campaign traits. Also AP's tend to go to ~15, so I built accordingly.
I. Two-Handed Fighter (APG archetype)
Race: Human
Trait: Killer (adds crit modifier to damage on a successful crit)Stats: (20 point buy)
Str 19 (13) Dex 14 (5) Con 14 (5) Int 7 (-4) Wis 14 (5) Cha 7 (-2)
Feats:
1: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Falchion), Toughness
2: Intimidating Prowess
3: Step Up
4: Weapon Specialization (Falchion)
5: Combat Reflexes
6: Dazzling Display
7: Following Step
8: Step Up and Strike
9: Shatter Defenses
10: Greater Weapon Focus (Falchion)
11: Deadly Stroke
12. Improved Critical (Falchion)
13. Greater Weapon Specialization
14. Critical Focus
15. Staggering CriticalII. Sword and Board TWF
Race: Human
Trait: Killer (add crit mod to damage on a crit)Stats: (20 point buy)
Str 18 (10) Dex 16 (10) Con 14 (5) Int 7 (-4) Wis 13 (3) Cha 7 (-4)
Feats:
1: Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Exotic Weapon (Falcata)
2: Power Attack
3: Weapon Focus (Falcata)
4: Step Up
5: Combat Reflexes
6: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7: Shield Slam
8: Following Step
9: Step Up and Strike
10. Improved Critical (Falcata)
11. Shield Mastery
12. Critical Focus
13. Staggering Critical
14. Double Slice
15. Two Weapon RendIf I end up filling the fighter role in Jade Regent, it will be one of these two builds or a variation thereof. I really like the playstyle of the Sword and Board TWF, however the 2 hand build with overhand chop, backswing, an greater power attack looks monstrous. It's a good thing I'll be DM'ing Carrion Crown for a while yet as I'm torn. Feel free to skewer these ideas as exigent, feedback is always appreciated.
Upon further inspection, it appears that my battlefield control will be at least as good if not better with the two hand build, especially factoring the piledriver ability in (trip and bull rush as free actions that dont provoke AoO). Thus at this point, I think I'm going to go with the 2 hand build, as it just seems to be better all around.
It's going to be better on Offense. You might find yourself missing that cheap shield AC for some time...
Remember, as far as dmg goes, if you want to really lay into your enemy, you can drop the shield and two hand the falcata!
==+Aelyinth
It's going to be better on Offense. You might find yourself missing that cheap shield AC for some time...
==+Aelyinth
I was thinking about that, but upon learning I'm going to have the luxury of a cleric and a bard in the group, I'm less worried about the extra AC. Also there is room for toughness in the 2 hand build, and an extra 20 hp is never a bad thing. Our group for Jade Regent is shaping up to be as follows:
1) Fighter (the 2 hand build I posted)
2) Cleric (Support/Debuffer)
3) Rogue (TWF)
4) Bard (Archer/Buffer)
5) Wizard (Conjuror/Controller)
With a Bard in the group I'd lean towards the Two Weapon Warrior Variant. That +4 from Inspire Courage is gonna do heaps for 7 or 8 attacks. Plus he gets to make 2 primarys + rend as a standard action at 9.
And can make TWF AOO'S. So maximise those.
Crit builds are nice, but with a Bard, I'd consider Dazing assault,since inspire courage nearly neagtes the penalty. You can force saves with each attack or AOO. RE-train it for stunning assault at 16.
At 12 you could retrain out Stepup and strike (since dazed opponents can'tmove away) for Two weapon rend earlier and forget crit feats. Gtr Two Weapon Fighting maybe
Crits rock but that bard changes things.
With a Bard in the group I'd lean towards the Two Weapon Warrior Variant. That +4 from Inspire Courage is gonna do heaps for 7 or 8 attacks. Plus he gets to make 2 primarys + rend as a standard action at 9.
And can make TWF AOO'S. So maximise those.Crit builds are nice, but with a Bard, I'd consider Dazing assault,since inspire courage nearly neagtes the penalty. You can force saves with each attack or AOO. RE-train it for stunning assault at 16.
At 12 you could retrain out Stepup and strike (since dazed opponents can'tmove away) for Two weapon rend earlier and forget crit feats. Gtr Two Weapon Fighting maybeCrits rock but that bard changes things.
All that being said, I still think the 2 Hand comes out ahead on damage even on a full attack. I'm going to run the numbers tonight after I DM but I'd be surprised if the TWF can overcome overhand chop/backswing/greater power attack et al. On the other hand, the assault feats do look attractive, and even more so for the 2 Hander who has more hit to play with anyway. If I do go the assault as opposed to crit build, greatsword may be a better choice than falchion, I'll have to check that as well.
All that being said, I still think the 2 Hand comes out ahead on damage even on a full attack. I'm going to run the numbers tonight after I DM but I'd be surprised if the TWF can overcome overhand chop/backswing/greater power attack et al. On the other hand, the assault feats do look attractive, and even more so for the 2 Hander who has more hit to play with anyway. If I do go the assault as opposed to crit build, greatsword may be a better choice than falchion, I'll have to check that as well.With a Bard in the group I'd lean towards the Two Weapon Warrior Variant. That +4 from Inspire Courage is gonna do heaps for 7 or 8 attacks. Plus he gets to make 2 primarys + rend as a standard action at 9.
And can make TWF AOO'S. So maximise those.Crit builds are nice, but with a Bard, I'd consider Dazing assault,since inspire courage nearly neagtes the penalty. You can force saves with each attack or AOO. RE-train it for stunning assault at 16.
At 12 you could retrain out Stepup and strike (since dazed opponents can'tmove away) for Two weapon rend earlier and forget crit feats. Gtr Two Weapon Fighting maybeCrits rock but that bard changes things.
With Inspire Courage factored in, the 2H fighter still comes out ~6.5 DPR ahead on a full attack over the TWF. It's about what I thought it would be, greater power attack is a lot to overcome. Fortunately, I have these boards to keep me busy while the Paladin and the rest of the party debate the merits of investigating on the behalf of a flesh golem. (Just started Trial of the Beast tonight) :P
|
Is the Falcatta a viable weapon in a Defender of the weak build? Like Jon Kines asked, would burning a feat on Exotic weapon proficiency be worth it?
If you're going to burn a feat for EWP, get an exotic polearm.
-- To really "defend the weak", you need reach, Combat Reflexes and Stand Still (this prevents a pounce monster from just "eating" an AoO from you in order to attack the squishy you're protecting). If your DEX is crappy (frequently Enlarged, etc), the barbarian rage power Quick Reflexes and the feat Pushing Assault are almost as effective (and sometimes more effective, because you still dish out some damage rather than trading away the entire AoO).
Is the Falcatta a viable weapon in a Defender of the weak build? Like Jon Kines asked, would burning a feat on Exotic weapon proficiency be worth it?If you're going to burn a feat for EWP, get an exotic polearm.
-- To really "defend the weak", you need reach, Combat Reflexes and Stand Still (this prevents a pounce monster from just "eating" an AoO from you in order to attack the squishy you're protecting). If your DEX is crappy (frequently Enlarged, etc), the barbarian rage power Quick Reflexes and the feat Pushing Assault are almost as effective (and sometimes more effective, because you still dish out some damage rather than trading away the entire AoO).
Reach is amazing at lower levels, but becomes less of a factor by midgame.
|
|
Reach is amazing at lower levels, but becomes less of a factor by midgame.
Reach + Enlarged means you control 10x10 squares (versus fliers you're a 4x4x4 "cube" wielding a 20ft polearm, so your effective threatened area is 10x10x6(vertical), or 10x10x10 if everybody is flying.
-- This is significant at any level of the game in terms of protecting squishies "concealed" within your "arc of AoOs".
Reach is amazing at lower levels, but becomes less of a factor by midgame.Reach + Enlarged means you control 10x10 squares -- which is significant at any level of the game in terms of protecting a squishy behind you.
It's good no doubt, but things like flying, dimension door, and phantom steeds make it somewhat more situational is all I'm saying.
|
|
I was rapidly editing that as you replied; here's the whole thing again:
Reach is amazing at lower levels, but becomes less of a factor by midgame.
Reach + Enlarged means you control 10x10 squares (versus fliers you're a 4x4x4 "cube" wielding a 20ft polearm, so your effective threatened area is 10x10x6(vertical), or 10x10x10 if everybody is flying.
-- This is significant at any level of the game in terms of protecting squishies "concealed" within your "arc of AoOs".
I was rapidly editing that as you replied; here's the whole thing again:Reach is amazing at lower levels, but becomes less of a factor by midgame.Reach + Enlarged means you control 10x10 squares (versus fliers you're a 4x4x4 "cube" wielding a 20ft polearm, so your effective threatened area is 10x10x6(vertical), or 10x10x10 if everybody is flying.
-- This is significant at any level of the game in terms of protecting squishies "concealed" within your "arc of AoOs".
Again it depends, it is an open or enclosed area? In the latter it is definitely amazing, if its an open area less so. Ultimately, its a style choice, but you have convinced me it is better past the lower levels that I had initially given it credit for.
|
|
...if its an open area less so...
Any other "protective" build is as similarly limited, if not more so, than enlarged-reach.
Until you've actually played one at high-level, it's difficult to appreciate the awesome power of being to inflict AoOs over such a huge area. Example: a demonic pounce monster charges the wizard and has no choice by to cross my threatened zone to do so (since I completely envelope my protected ally's adjacent squares with my reach); I take my AoO and sacrifice my PA damage with Pushing Assault to bap him backward 1 square in a line directly away from me. Back to the monster, which can no longer charge in a straight line because I have knocked it off-kilter. Assuming it hasn't already exceeded single-move during its attempted charge, and/or has enough reach to attack my protected ally, it takes its one feeble attack (rather than the horrific pounce:claw/claw/rake/rend/yuck! it had been planning).
On our turn, it's splorched; and that's the end of that.
...if its an open area less so...Any other "protective" build is as similarly limited, if not more so, than enlarged-reach.
Until you've actually played one at high-level, it's difficult to appreciate the awesome power of being to inflict AoOs over such a huge area. Example: a demonic pounce monster charges the wizard and has no choice by to cross my threatened zone to do so (since I completely envelope my protected ally's adjacent squares with my reach); I take my AoO and sacrifice my PA damage with Pushing Assault to bap him backward 1 square in a line directly away from me. Back to the monster, which can no longer charge in a straight line because I have knocked it off-kilter. Assuming it hasn't already exceeded single-move during its attempted charge, and/or has enough reach to attack my protected ally, it takes its one feeble attack (rather than the horrific pounce:claw/claw/rake/rend/yuck! it had been planning).
On our turn, it's splorched; and that's the end of that.
I may work out a reach build as well, you've sold me on considering it.
@Rogue Eidolon,
Mate, It may be worth nothing if someone is going to TWF a must have item is a glove of storing:
"A core solution is get him glove of storing.
Start combat with one weapon in hand- move to close and 2handed smack.
2hand any AOO'S.
Next round (when adjacent) draw offhand weapon from glove as a free action and TWF full attack- when complete sheath offhand weapon in the glove (free action).
Now if enemies move/provoke he can
2 hand AOO again. Or move and 2 hand.
Basically only pull the offhand Wpn from the glove for full attacks.
TYhis means your twf doesn't suck when he moves.
works with a quick draw shield as well.
@Rogue Eidolon,
Mate, It may be worth nothing if someone is going to TWF a must have item is a glove of storing:
"A core solution is get him glove of storing.
Start combat with one weapon in hand- move to close and 2handed smack.
2hand any AOO'S.
Next round (when adjacent) draw offhand weapon from glove as a free action and TWF full attack- when complete sheath offhand weapon in the glove (free action).Now if enemies move/provoke he can
2 hand AOO again. Or move and 2 hand.Basically only pull the offhand Wpn from the glove for full attacks.
TYhis means your twf doesn't suck when he moves.works with a quick draw shield as well.
Unfortunately, that trick only works if you are using a non-light weapon in your on-hand, since you cannot two-hand a light weapon. I don't think it's worth it to have a mismatched pair of weapons to use this trick in most circumstances, since by the time you can afford the Glove of Storing, you're denying yourself at least the +2 to hit on your off-hand attacks from Greater Weapon Focus. You'd have a mismatched weapon pair with the Defender of the Weak, so it would be worth it when making only one attack if you have a longsword or other non-light weapon in the main hand (still not worth it for AoOs though since you lose the shield bonus).
It's an excellent trick, though, in general, when it applies. If you're playing with mismatched weapons for roleplaying reasons and one of them isn't light, I would recommend it quite a bit.
|
@Rogue Eidolon,
Mate, It may be worth nothing if someone is going to TWF a must have item is a glove of storing:
"A core solution is get him glove of storing.
Start combat with one weapon in hand- move to close and 2handed smack.
2hand any AOO'S.
Next round (when adjacent) draw offhand weapon from glove as a free action and TWF full attack- when complete sheath offhand weapon in the glove (free action).Now if enemies move/provoke he can
2 hand AOO again. Or move and 2 hand.Basically only pull the offhand Wpn from the glove for full attacks.
TYhis means your twf doesn't suck when he moves.works with a quick draw shield as well.
Unfortunately, that trick only works if you are using a non-light weapon in your on-hand, since you cannot two-hand a light weapon. I don't think it's worth it to have a mismatched pair of weapons to use this trick in most circumstances, since by the time you can afford the Glove of Storing, you're denying yourself at least the +2 to hit on your off-hand attacks from Greater Weapon Focus. You'd have a mismatched weapon pair with the Defender of the Weak, so it would be worth it when making only one attack if you have a longsword or other non-light weapon in the main hand (still not worth it for AoOs though since you lose the shield bonus).
It's an excellent trick, though, in general, when it applies. If you're playing with mismatched weapons for roleplaying reasons and one of them isn't light, I would recommend it quite a bit.
I'd say even then Duelist Gloves might be better.
I'd say even then Duelist Gloves might be better.@Rogue Eidolon,
Mate, It may be worth nothing if someone is going to TWF a must have item is a glove of storing:
"A core solution is get him glove of storing.
Start combat with one weapon in hand- move to close and 2handed smack.
2hand any AOO'S.
Next round (when adjacent) draw offhand weapon from glove as a free action and TWF full attack- when complete sheath offhand weapon in the glove (free action).Now if enemies move/provoke he can
2 hand AOO again. Or move and 2 hand.Basically only pull the offhand Wpn from the glove for full attacks.
TYhis means your twf doesn't suck when he moves.works with a quick draw shield as well.
Unfortunately, that trick only works if you are using a non-light weapon in your on-hand, since you cannot two-hand a light weapon. I don't think it's worth it to have a mismatched pair of weapons to use this trick in most circumstances, since by the time you can afford the Glove of Storing, you're denying yourself at least the +2 to hit on your off-hand attacks from Greater Weapon Focus. You'd have a mismatched weapon pair with the Defender of the Weak, so it would be worth it when making only one attack if you have a longsword or other non-light weapon in the main hand (still not worth it for AoOs though since you lose the shield bonus).
It's an excellent trick, though, in general, when it applies. If you're playing with mismatched weapons for roleplaying reasons and one of them isn't light, I would recommend it quite a bit.
Pretty much. Assuming you would be Power Attacking and that you want a 2-for-1 trade-off before you'd even consider taking damage over to-hit, you're looking for a +6 bonus to damage from two-handing to even overcome the +2 to hit and damage from the dueling gloves, which requires you to have 30 Strength (-4 required Strength per 4 levels). So even assuming you don't care about the other effects of the Gloves of Dueling, the Glove of Storing is only better at higher levels.
Still, even though I happily use the APG, my guide was written before the APG, and I'd be more likely to do a tweak with a pre-APG tip (I won't put in any APG material until I'm ready to put it all in, and with the number of feats that Jason B. told us were going to be in Ultimate Combat, I immediately turned to my girlfriend at the banquet and whispered "There's no way I'm updating my Fighter Guide to include Ultimate Combat"). The dueling gloves are APG.
@Rogue Eidolon,
Mate, It may be worth nothing if someone is going to TWF a must have item is a glove of storing:
"A core solution is get him glove of storing.
Start combat with one weapon in hand- move to close and 2handed smack.
2hand any AOO'S.
Next round (when adjacent) draw offhand weapon from glove as a free action and TWF full attack- when complete sheath offhand weapon in the glove (free action).Now if enemies move/provoke he can
2 hand AOO again. Or move and 2 hand.Basically only pull the offhand Wpn from the glove for full attacks.
TYhis means your twf doesn't suck when he moves.works with a quick draw shield as well.
Unfortunately, that trick only works if you are using a non-light weapon in your on-hand, since you cannot two-hand a light weapon. I don't think it's worth it to have a mismatched pair of weapons to use this trick in most circumstances, since by the time you can afford the Glove of Storing, you're denying yourself at least the +2 to hit on your off-hand attacks from Greater Weapon Focus. You'd have a mismatched weapon pair with the Defender of the Weak, so it would be worth it when making only one attack if you have a longsword or other non-light weapon in the main hand (still not worth it for AoOs though since you lose the shield bonus).
It's an excellent trick, though, in general, when it applies. If you're playing with mismatched weapons for roleplaying reasons and one of them isn't light, I would recommend it quite a bit.
No worries, I discovered the trick when looking to help my Scimitar/Kukri
Ranger not suck when he moved.I thought about it for fighters when I looked at a Picture of Valerous.
Like you say, more worth it for non-matched weapons so Probably belongs in the Ranger guide.
(If I was gonna TWF a fighter- I'd go TWWarrior, who can TWF on standard actions/AOO's anyway)
@Rogue Eidolon,
Mate, It may be worth nothing if someone is going to TWF a must have item is a glove of storing:
"A core solution is get him glove of storing.
Start combat with one weapon in hand- move to close and 2handed smack.
2hand any AOO'S.
Next round (when adjacent) draw offhand weapon from glove as a free action and TWF full attack- when complete sheath offhand weapon in the glove (free action).Now if enemies move/provoke he can
2 hand AOO again. Or move and 2 hand.Basically only pull the offhand Wpn from the glove for full attacks.
TYhis means your twf doesn't suck when he moves.works with a quick draw shield as well.
Unfortunately, that trick only works if you are using a non-light weapon in your on-hand, since you cannot two-hand a light weapon. I don't think it's worth it to have a mismatched pair of weapons to use this trick in most circumstances, since by the time you can afford the Glove of Storing, you're denying yourself at least the +2 to hit on your off-hand attacks from Greater Weapon Focus. You'd have a mismatched weapon pair with the Defender of the Weak, so it would be worth it when making only one attack if you have a longsword or other non-light weapon in the main hand (still not worth it for AoOs though since you lose the shield bonus).
It's an excellent trick, though, in general, when it applies. If you're playing with mismatched weapons for roleplaying reasons and one of them isn't light, I would recommend it quite a bit.
No worries, I discovered the trick when looking to help my Scimitar/Kukri
Ranger not suck when he moved.
I thought about it for fighters when I looked at a Picture of Valerous.
Like you say, more worth it for non-matched weapons so Probably belongs in the Ranger guide.(If I was gonna TWF a fighter- I'd go TWWarrior, who can TWF on standard actions/AOO's anyway)
You can also use a Weapon Cord as a super-cheap (1 silver piece) version. It does cost your Swift action every round, but the cost savings cannot be denied.
I tried that, but the weapon cord description says you may not switch weapons- which i bbelieve two handing counts as.
I tried that, but the weapon cord description says you may not switch weapons- which i bbelieve two handing counts as.
That may be so--it isn't entirely clear in the description. I didn't get that impression myself, but it's certainly a reasonable ruling.
I tried that, but the weapon cord description says you may not switch weapons- which i bbelieve two handing counts as.
I wanted to ask about the chakrams idea as well, regarding this. Wouldn't that also be considered "switching weapons?"
I really want it to not be the case, because I love the versatility of chucking things with TWF if nothing is within range.
I tried that, but the weapon cord description says you may not switch weapons- which i bbelieve two handing counts as.I wanted to ask about the chakrams idea as well, regarding this. Wouldn't that also be considered "switching weapons?"
I really want it to not be the case, because I love the versatility of chucking things with TWF if nothing is within range.
The TWF/Thrower build works (especially Two Weapon Warrior with quickdraw/deadly aim or a Ranger spamming Instant Enemy) with one or two things:
An exotic double weapon.
- This lets you use the glove of storing trick to freely switch. You can walk around empty handed. If a fight starts at range (30ft) you can TWF throw at an opponent (getting full two weapon training for fighter, since your full attacking or if you're a ranger and use instant enemy), then stop throwing next round and either
1.Draw from your glove and full attack (if the enemy closed)
2. Keep throwing (if in range)
3.Draw from your glove and charge 2 handed (if out of throwing range.
Each method is equal or better, DPR wise to a normal two hander. A straight archer will outdo you. Damage is good throwing, but a magical bow would have greater range and bestow an enchantment to ammow.
A 3rd magic weapon for a TWF is hard since your spending nearly all money on your melee wpns.
IF you allow weapon cords to let you drop your weapons and throw, then swift recover, you could forget the Exotic Double Weapon and use two swords, I believe it doens't work RAW.
OR
Do what I do. Have said fighter (dual weilding) start empty handed and throw only so long as you can reach someone with your chakrams. As soon as they close or are out or range, quickdraw your sword and 2h to move or pull both and full attack. Once they are out, they stay out!
A two handed charge (via glove of storing sheath of offhand blade) does alot more damage than move action sheathing both blades and throwing once...
Hey, I am brand new to pathfinder I this guide is very helpful. I was wanting some info for a fairly spcific build, a varient on the sword and board. Basically how does everything differ if you are a dwarf with a drawven ax on 25 point buy in? The feats dotn sync up at all with this paticular set up and I being so new do not know enough to try and apply the feats correctly. The campaign is starting at lvl1 and going on to apox 12-15 ( LONG game). Any help would be greatly appriciated.
Welcome to Pathfinder!
I wouldn't be too tied down to anything in the sample feat build for the Defender of the Weak--I cooked it up to be a single example of a reasonable set of choices, but not by any means a gospel.
Just pick out your favorites from the blue and green feats, avoiding any of the feats in the Critical Focus line like the plague.
As for stats, it's somewhat hard to do a good Defender of the Weak with Dwarf on low PB. Fortunately, thanks to your 25 pb, you will be awesome no matter what you do, so I'd personally recommend that you not min-max it and instead give yourself some non-combat stuff, but if you do trick things out for a combat monster at the expense of Int and Cha, you can wind up with something like Str 17 Dex 17 Con 16 Int 7 Wis 14 Cha 7.
Hello. We're roleplaying since 19.., but the whole group is totally new to pathfinder (or D&D). Yes, that's possible in Germany.
I started creating a fighter, and was very happy to find this guide. But I'm sure there has to be a misunderstanding about level gains:
Leveling gives me a bonus skill rank or a hit point, but no feats besides those given in the class description, as I understand it. Being human allows for another skill rank but no feat either.
The fighter class level gain table shows Armor Training 1 at level 3. You're only allowed to swap feats at 4th, 8th,... level. (And is this swap meant additionally to the bonus feat from the table?)So how is there Iron Will to choose at level 3?
Guten tag, and welcome to the wide world of Pathfinder. Don't let any of the caster supremacists tell you otherwise--you're going to kick butt as a Fighter! Now, what you're missing is the chart on page 30 of the Core Rulebook (it's the same chart that has the XP needed to level up). According to that chart, every character, Fighter or not, gets feats at every odd level and stat increases at every fourth level. That's the Feat available at level 3 (it doesn't have to be a combat feat either, which the Fighter bonus feats must). That's just how awesome Fighters are--a Human Fighter will get 22 feats over the course of his career!
Hope that helps, and good gaming!
~RE
I think I just found the reason - you have to choose a weapon for Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. So, if you choose these feats in the first 9 levels, they are not needed anymore when switching to the weapon that's better with Critical Focus, and you need to train them again.
But otherwise, would it be ok, choosing other good feats, and learn the Weapon-specific feats at 9th level or later for the new weapon?
Critical Focus is not the only reason to lean on crit range rather than straight out damage, but it is a good reason to do so. That said, if you have good buff support from your casters, you may start seeing an advantage in using, say, the Falchion over the Greatsword at earlier levels (or dual Kukris over dual Shortswords). A rule of thumb (the math isn't perfect but it's easy to calculate) is that for every 20 damage or so that you do in one blow, a weapon that's 18-20 crits can have 1 lower base damage than a weapon with 19-20 crits and still be on par. So for instance, once you start doing 20 damage per hit, the shortsword gets pretty close to the kukri. Once you start doing 40 damage or so per hit, the falchion gets pretty close to the greatsword.
Based on your limited number of feat swaps and the fact that Weapon Focus is an extremely good feat, you'll probably not want to switch around (unless you are using the Defender of the Weak build, in which case you don't have matching weapons anyway, the off-hand has lower crits, and Critical Focus can be less worth it). Also, there's certainly no need to go the Critical Focus build late game if you don't want, it can save you on feats to avoid it--pick a style that seems coolest to you and that works well strategically with the rest of your group. One thing that's fun about the Fighter is that you are (usually anyway) a professional fighting man or woman, like a soldier or knight. That bookish wizard can sure do research well, and the bard can win the king's favor at court, but you're often one of the go-to guys for organizing teamwork and tactics for battle.
True dat. Fighters are the only class that can reliably afford the awesome Assault Feats.
Example-
I have 2 builds: a Two Weapon Warrior Duel wielding Scimitar/Kukri and later just 2 scimitars (when the offahand penalty lessens).
And a Falchion wielding Dawnflower Dervish.
Rather than Critical focus at 9 and say Staggering crit at 13 then stunning crit at 17. (the only mega awesome crit feats that inflict real debilitating conditions) that was 3 feats. Crit focus is crap since fighters usually confirm anyway.
Instead- take Improved Critical (so you can put something else on your weapon) and Dazing Assault at 11. Dazed is a better condition (they can't attack or move) and it's on when you want- not random. If you pimped gtr wpn fcs and duelist gloves then your Best attack while still auto hit.
So- dazing assault all the time for: AOO'S, Flanking or If gtr heroism is on you. Swap it for stunning assault at 16 (which does the same thing but denies dex and they drop thier weapon).
Now while this is going on- that Improved Crit has you doing just as much burst damage as the Critical focus guy and your weapon which doesn't need keen is cheaper...
Dawnflower Dervish?