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Am I being fair?


Advice

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The problem of the arms race in this regard has arisen not on the player's end, but on the GM's. Eventually the player will realize that the GM is pursuing their character unfairly compared to the rest of the table. Slumber is powerful hex but no more powerful than any other debuff or crowd control oriented character. I've run many games and campaigns most of the players in our group have tried a Witch and none of us have had any problem with the slumber hex. We're also not the kind to throw a single monster at a party of 4 or more players as they almost never tends to go well.

Besides personally I'd take Cackle and Evil Eye and just smash them with debuffs doesn't matter if they made the will save just keep extending it with Cackle.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
cranewings wrote:

You are acting like the writers for Paizo have the best interests of your table at heart. I don't think they do. They very deliberately include options that are better or worse than others specifically as an IQ test, either because they think it is funny, or to make people want to talk about the game. Either way, monks aren't as good as wizards and dodge isn't as good as power attack. That's on purpose. Because you can't trust the book, it is up to the GM to decide what is right: not some entitled player that wants what he wants.

Seriously dude, that's ridiculous. I don't care if they're insistent or not that's ridiculous. You're the type of GM that made me glad they made the Pathfinder Society. Now GM's can't do crap like that and if they do you can go over their heads and they get major repercussions.

I'm sorry someone has an ability that can be used once/day/creature that focuses on the most important save in the game and is completely negated by a move action from any single ally there. If you're still making bosses with low will saves that are running around alone though and magic exists at all in your world, you kinda get what you deserve. Frankly will saves are perhaps the easiest save in the game to radically boost and I believe every character should have at least a moderately good one.

The point of the mechanics is irrelevant though. Point being, as a gm you should never be singling out a character for using a class ability for its intended purpose. Thats not cheese. Thats playing a class as it was intended to be played and I have never met anyone who had a problem with that up till now


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
cranewings wrote:

You are acting like the writers for Paizo have the best interests of your table at heart. I don't think they do. They very deliberately include options that are better or worse than others specifically as an IQ test, either because they think it is funny, or to make people want to talk about the game. Either way, monks aren't as good as wizards and dodge isn't as good as power attack. That's on purpose. Because you can't trust the book, it is up to the GM to decide what is right: not some entitled player that wants what he wants.

Seriously dude, that's ridiculous. I don't care if they're insistent or not that's ridiculous. You're the type of GM that made me glad they made the Pathfinder Society. Now GM's can't do crap like that and if they do you can go over their heads and they get major repercussions.

I'm sorry someone has an ability that can be used once/day/creature that focuses on the most important save in the game and is completely negated by a move action from any single ally there. If you're still making bosses with low will saves that are running around alone though and magic exists at all in your world, you kinda get what you deserve. Frankly will saves are perhaps the easiest save in the game to radically boost and I believe every character should have at least a moderately good one.

The point of the mechanics is irrelevant though. Point being, as a gm you should never be singling out a character for using a class ability for its intended purpose. Thats not cheese. Thats playing a class as it was intended to be played and I have never met anyone who had a problem with that up till now

I have a problem with the class and I have a bit of a problem with Paizo for writing it. That is mitigated by the fact that I'm not in their RPGA thing and so don't have to allow it. It is silly anyway. Read the threads on here and listen to how people deal with it in their games. Most GMs pick enemies on purpose that mitigate PC abilities so that "everyone gets a chance to shine." That sucks in my opinion, and it is boring. I don't want to have to cater to one player because they have a built in win button for common enemies. I just won't let them play it.


cranewings wrote:


I have a problem with the class and I have a bit of a problem with Paizo for writing it. That is mitigated by the fact that I'm not in their RPGA thing and so don't have to allow it. It is silly anyway. Read the threads on here and listen to how people deal with it in their games. Most GMs pick enemies on purpose that mitigate PC abilities so that "everyone gets a chance to shine." That sucks in my opinion, and it is boring. I don't want to have to cater to one player because they have a built in win button for common enemies. I just won't let them play it.

First of all it's not a built in win button. If it was a built in win button it would be a wish spell that was level 1 infinite casts immediate action.

There are counters to it, 1 being the most predominate save in the game, the second being a move action called "I kick him". Don't even have to bend over and slap him a quick kick will waken him. Oh and its not even for common enemies. Plenty of monsters have high will saves or immunity to sleep.

Finally as a GM its part of your job to cater to your players. You cater to all of them believe it or not. You're supposed to give them all a chance to shine, and yes it is part of your job to build your encounters around the PC's as a whole or risk either crushing them or watching your boss go down in flames.


the slumber Hex at first is around a 50/50 or thereabouts

then the save eventually becomes don't roll a 1.


Ok lets finish this once and for all.

Level 20

It is not a spell so it is not available for spell focus

We will give it Accursed Hex (allows a 2nd time)
HEX SAVE
Base 10
Level/2 10
Int 13

Save 33

Intelligence (20+5 Level +5 Tome + 6 Headband=36 (36-10)/2=13

Now for Creature Save
From Bestiary
All dragons are immune

Taking from 4 other random creatures average will is 21.

Meaning fully Statting yourself as high as possible in Int you require them to roll a 12 to succeed on an average battle for your party. Therefore they have an initial chance of success of 45% and a final chance of success of 20.25% This is after spending over 160k gold, 17 of your original stat points in point buy, your racial adjustment, all 5 level increases and 10% of your feats.

On the comparison a wizard or sorcerer saves can go with a level 9 spell 10 + 9 (spell level) + 13 (Casting stat) + 4 (spell focus, greater Spell focus, spell perfection) for a total of 36 and that doesn't count blood lines or schools


next the rant will be on misfortune!


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cranewings wrote:
If I have players that are really, really insistent on playing something stupid like a sleep witch, I do have a strategy. I just double the encounter, or close to it, feed the witch something she can put to sleep, then focus her down that round. Then the real encounter can continue for the players that made fun characters.

Do you have many players in your game that take those kinds of insults?


Robert Jordan wrote:

The problem of the arms race in this regard has arisen not on the player's end, but on the GM's. Eventually the player will realize that the GM is pursuing their character unfairly compared to the rest of the table. Slumber is powerful hex but no more powerful than any other debuff or crowd control oriented character. I've run many games and campaigns most of the players in our group have tried a Witch and none of us have had any problem with the slumber hex. We're also not the kind to throw a single monster at a party of 4 or more players as they almost never tends to go well.

Besides personally I'd take Cackle and Evil Eye and just smash them with debuffs doesn't matter if they made the will save just keep extending it with Cackle. [/QUT

This is what I do!

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Shalafi2412 wrote:


Do you have many players in your game that take those kinds of insults?

I'm pretty sure they don't stick around long.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
cranewings wrote:

You are acting like the writers for Paizo have the best interests of your table at heart. I don't think they do. They very deliberately include options that are better or worse than others specifically as an IQ test, either because they think it is funny, or to make people want to talk about the game. Either way, monks aren't as good as wizards and dodge isn't as good as power attack. That's on purpose. Because you can't trust the book, it is up to the GM to decide what is right: not some entitled player that wants what he wants.

If you read my post, I said I was talking about players that are insistent. If I...

Wow. Just. . . . Wow.

Andoran RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

In other news, rangers: OP against favored enemies?

Shadow Lodge

cranewings wrote:
You are acting like the writers for Paizo have the best interests of your table at heart.

I literally have no words. What.


Charlie Bell wrote:
In other news, rangers: OP against favored enemies?

Not fair! Not fair! They should not be able to kill 7 goblins with one blow! Not fair! Not fair!

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Charlie Bell wrote:
In other news, rangers: OP against favored enemies?

I multiclass Ranger with all my characters. Everything is more hooah with Ranger in front of it.

Andoran

Lets deal with a more reasonable level like 10 with an optimized Witch who started out dumping stats to get that 20 Int (standard for PFS play) and has spent roughly half the average earning for a lvl 10 character on the +6 Headband to increase Int.

Slumber Hex

Int: 22 (+2 for 4th + 8th lvl attribute boost) (+6) + Level: 5 + headband +3 + 10 base DC = 24 will save.

Now lets look at some CR 10 monsters Will save:

9 headed Cryohyrda +5 - 10% chance of success
Guardian Naga +12 - 50% chance of success
Piscodaemon +9 - 35% chance of success
Brachiosaurus +9 35% chance of success
Fire Giant +9 35% Chance of success
Adlet +8 - 30% chance of success

We can also look at NPCs with CRs equal to 10

Human Rogue/bard 11 +8 30 Chance of success
Human Fighter 11 +5 10 Chance of success
Human Summoner 11 +9 35% Chance of success

So in all cases a pimped out Witch with the Slumber Hex has at least a 50% chance of taking out an equal lvled creature with one action.


a pimped out fighter can take out a level appropriate foe with 1 round of full attacks. i don't really see a different between a witch doing it or a fighter doing it.


J-Bone wrote:

So in all cases a pimped out Witch with the Slumber Hex has at least a 50% chance of taking out an equal lvled creature with one action.

In all cases involving an opponent who is vulnerable to sleep who doesn't have a mate with an action nearby, you mean?

Hyperbolic statement is hyperbolic.

Are people still arguing about the slumber hex being gamebreaking? Really? Yes, the witch has a chance at disabling an opponent for the duration of the combat in a round. How much chance does the equal-level, equally optimized 2h barbarian/fighter/archer of choice have of just outright killing an equal-level baddy in that same round?

Andoran

In all cases involving an opponent who is vulnerable to sleep who doesn't have a mate with an action nearby, you mean?

Hyperbolic statement is hyperbolic.

Are people still arguing about the slumber hex being gamebreaking? Really? Yes, the witch has a chance at disabling an opponent for the duration of the combat in a round. How much chance does the equal-level, equally optimized 2h barbarian/fighter/archer of choice have of just outright killing an equal-level baddy in that same round?

1. Play more Pathfinder Society and you'll see how rare it is that the BBEG is one of monster classification immune to sleep.

2. A fighter on the first round generally has to move into position so he wont get that full round of attack. The Witch does not have to worry about that. Furthermore DR, high AC and other gimmicks are pretty common. Remember SR doesnt stop the Slumber Hex

3. To Pherni yeah if people are still talking about it that should mean that its still a big problem in the game.

Andoran

In fact people are still talking about it ruining their games so much that someone just posted a new thread HERE


J-Bone wrote:


1. Play more Pathfinder Society and you'll see how rare it is that the BBEG is one of monster classification immune to sleep.

2. A fighter on the first round generally has to move into position so he wont get that full round of attack. The Witch does not have to worry about that. Furthermore DR, high AC and other gimmicks are pretty common. Remember SR doesnt stop the Slumber Hex

3. To Pherni yeah if people are still talking about it that should mean that its still a big problem in the game.

1.And none of those BBEGs have a minion with an action nearby? Don't argue initiatives with me, you're talking about an 'overpowered' character who is feat-poor and low on dex.

2.The archer has far more range than the witch's close-range ability. FAR more. Barbarians can cap the beast totem tree to full attack off a charge. The fighter has the entire vital strike tree (and a pile of potential feats) to bump that first attack up to something nasty. Or he just takes the charge (cuz he has AC and HP) and then full attacks immediately after.

To slumber a target the witch (who is FAR poorer on defensive spells than the wizard) has to move within 30' of the target.

3. If your concern from a 10th-level caster is the slumber hex then something is wrong. A witch has a whole host of far more dangerous things that can be done in a combat (black tentacles to end the fight, mad monkeys to completely shut down an enemy spellcaster, etc).

You think slumber is bad? What about the optimized 10th level witch hitting the BBEG with feeblemind? That's just as deadly to the encounter, only now a 1HD minion can't immediately save the boss.

So I've been running games with witches and played the class both fairly consistently in the last couple years. Slumber's been really handy, but no more than any other spell. What's your direct (nontheorycrafting) experience with it?

Andoran

Phneri wrote:


Or he just takes the charge (cuz he has AC and HP) and then full attacks immediately after.

Not sure your getting Full Attacks after a charge unless you mean the next round, by which time the Slumber Hex has at least a 50% chance on KOing the opponent given the examples I used before. Also the melee fighter is still contending with ACs, DR and other potential issues the supernatural ability of the Slumber Hex completely bypasses. We should also remember that Slumber Hex is an every figh5t resource, awesome spells like Black Tentacles are limited resource spells.

My use of the 10th level witch using a Slumber Hex was to show its ability. Im not looking to expand this conversation with apple and oranges debated about every spell or ability in Pathfinder. Its a good example point but it can easily be examined at lvls 1,4 or even 14.

Anyway, you ask about my experience with them, as someone who plays a lot and runs a lot of PFS both online and at Cons I have seen this particular weapon be a game-ender many many times. In PFS you may (guesstimating based on the scenarios I've played/run 60% chance), have minions that can use their standard action to wake up the victim of the Slumber Hex but your chances for that are mitigated by the higher party initiative scores.


J-Bone wrote:
Phneri wrote:


Or he just takes the charge (cuz he has AC and HP) and then full attacks immediately after.

Not sure your getting Full Attacks after a charge unless you mean the next round, by which time the Slumber Hex has at least a 50% chance on KOing the opponent given the examples I used before. Also the melee fighter is still contending with ACs, DR and other potential issues the supernatural ability of the Slumber Hex completely bypasses.

My use of the 10th level witch using a Slumber Hex was to show its ability. Im not looking to expand this conversation with apple and oranges debated about every spell or ability in Pathfinder. Its a good example point but it can easily be examined at lvls 1,4 or even 14.

Anyway, you ask about my experience with them, as someone who plays a lot and runs a lot of PFS both online and at Cons I have seen this particular weapon be a game-ender many many times. In PFS you may (guesstimating based on the scenarios I've played/run 60% chance), have minions that can use their standard action to wake up the victim of the Slumber Hex but your chances for that are mitigated by the higher party initiative scores.

No offense but your entire argument thus far is, "If i spend 85% of my initial stat points in my casting stat plus my racial modifier and then half of my gold (which btw in case you forgot is illegal in PFS. You cant spend half your gold on one item) then I have over a 50% chance of putting anyone to sleep, with a 1/day/creature ability that can be voided with a standard action.

Andoran

Thomas Long 175 wrote:


No offense but your entire argument thus far is, "If i spend 85% of my initial stat points in my casting stat plus my racial modifier and then half of my gold (which btw in case you forgot is illegal in PFS. You cant spend half your gold on one item) then I have over a 50% chance of putting anyone to sleep, with a 1/day/creature ability that can be voided with a standard action.

If your a monostat character like the witch, why wouldnt you spend 85 % of your stat points in it?


J-Bone wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:


No offense but your entire argument thus far is, "If i spend 85% of my initial stat points in my casting stat plus my racial modifier and then half of my gold (which btw in case you forgot is illegal in PFS. You cant spend half your gold on one item) then I have over a 50% chance of putting anyone to sleep, with a 1/day/creature ability that can be voided with a standard action.
If your a monostat character like the witch, why wouldnt you spend 85 % of your stat points in it?

Because your saves now all suck and you're completely squishy which means if they save and your allies aren't there to back you up, you're screwed.

You have next to no survivability, enemy spellcasters can launch much more destructive spells at you from longer range and you're screwed, where in terms of your survivability aren't you bad?

This build i think the witch is actually save or suck. Because lets face it you've built her around an ability that they still have a moderately good chance of saving and if they do you can't use it again.

Oh and you never addressed the fact that you cant put that +6 headband on her. You can only spend up to 35% on offense or defense in PFS and certainly never 50% in one item


J-Bone wrote:
Phneri wrote:


Or he just takes the charge (cuz he has AC and HP) and then full attacks immediately after.

Not sure your getting Full Attacks after a charge unless you mean the next round, by which time the Slumber Hex has at least a 50% chance on KOing the opponent given the examples I used before. Also the melee fighter is still contending with ACs, DR and other potential issues the supernatural ability of the Slumber Hex completely bypasses.

The fighter can choose to eat a charge from an enemy that will do minimal damage, then full attack. The Barbarian can full attack anyone within 80 feet, the archer can full attack anyone within 120 feet.

Slumber, again, has a range of 30 feet.

Yes, damage has a downside. The upside is it outright KILLS the opponent, instead of disabling him for a short number of rounds.

The slumber hex is rendered moot by a variety of racial options, a will save, or a nearby friend. It also doesn't actually kill the opponent.

J-Bone wrote:


My use of the 10th level witch using a Slumber Hex was to show its ability. Im not looking to expand this conversation with apple and oranges debated about every spell or ability in Pathfinder. Its a good example point but it can easily be examined at lvls 1,4 or even 14.

It's not apples v. oranges. Its using other available abilities to point out that far more often than not slumber is outshined by a whole host of other spells available to the witch, regardless of level. This will continue to be true whether you want to debate it or not.

J-Bone wrote:


Anyway, you ask about my experience with them, as someone who plays a lot and runs a lot of PFS both online and at Cons I have seen this particular weapon be a game-ender many many times. In PFS you may (guesstimating based on the scenarios I've played/run 60% chance), have minions that can use their standard action to wake up the victim of the Slumber Hex but your chances for that are mitigated by the higher party initiative scores.

So no specific examples, then? Allow me to provide a few.

At level 3 the party encountered a half-dozen undead. The witch had..burning hands, I think? Beyond that it was levitating and dropping alchemical items.

At 4th the slumber hex went off successfully against the midboss fighter/anti-paladin. He missed the save by about 2. And almost made the upcoming fort save. Mild success, enabled because the party was smart and managed to get around a number of mooks.

At 8th the party encountered a mixed group of humanoid archers, casters, and fighters. Slumber was never used, because things like vomit swarm and black tentacles were FAR more effective at crowd control.

at 12th level we encounter the BBEG wizard. Feeblemind. One of his minions got slumbered the next round. Its damage output would have easily 1-shotted the witch.

These were the four of the several dozen encounters I can recall in a campaign where the witch really shined. Only one of those was due to the slumber hex.

And if everyone is taking a trait and feat to get a +6 to an initiative rolls, there should be a benefit. Again, the witch is feat poor and likely not high on dex.


At low levels that Hex makes a lot of fights really easy. Later on monster stats and abilities get really good, and the hex is not so good. The Evil Eye hex is more annoying than the sleep hex. If a creature saves against the sleep hex he can't be affected again for 24 hours, IIRC. Evil Eye and Cackle, especially once the penalty goes to -4 is a pretty big debuffer.
Using Evil Eye before another hex is a good way to make the 2nd hex stick.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Cards, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
KenderKin wrote:
next the rant will be on misfortune!

Well, since you mention it ...

Two of our local PFS players have characters with this capability. At low level it's pretty much a "save or die" spell, and saves are by no means automatic. The limitation of once per creature per day means you only get one chance, but if it succeeds it can seriously inconvenience even the BBEG for long enough to let the front-line troops to deal with him.


If the encounters become less challenging... then lower the challenge rating.

In other words, the players will earn less experience, and eventually be at a level where encounters are challenging once more....


I personally think its broken. I play PFS with a guy who plays a witch and Ive seen the last 3 end fights over in round 1 Slumber Hexes. The last one, Sewer Dragons of Absalom ended with the RP of the the end fight going on which allowed the party to advance and then Slumber Hex. Game over, thanks for coming.

I once played a witch when the APG first came out and had a witch with Slumber Hex. I ruined fight after fight for the first few levels got bored and asked to switch my character to a Wizard.

As Wriathstrike said, the Hex makes a lot of fights really easy, later on monster stats get good. Thing is most campaigns go go to later on. So if the numbers for lvl 10 say anything to me its that for most parties adventuring tenure that Hex dominates.

Andoran

Phneri wrote:
These were the four of the several dozen encounters I can recall in a campaign where the witch really shined. Only one of those was due to the slumber hex.

So basically your countering with an argument that I can paraphrase as Not only can my witch end fights with the Hex ability but it can do all sorts of other awesome stuff that an equal level Wizard can do.

phneri wrote:
It's not apples v. oranges. Its using other available abilities to point out that far more often than not slumber is outshined by a whole host of other spells available to the witch, regardless of level. This will continue to be true whether you want to debate it or not.

Actually it is apples and oranges as your comparing something that works on a limited resource basis to something that works in every fight, ignores SR and goes against the original Pathfinder philosophy of moving away from save or suck.

Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Oh and you never addressed the fact that you cant put that +6 headband on her. You can only spend up to 35% on offense or defense in PFS and certainly never 50% in one item

My argument does not have to be confined to PFS to show that the witch's Slumber Hex is overpowered.


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
a pimped out fighter can take out a level appropriate foe with 1 round of full attacks. i don't really see a different between a witch doing it or a fighter doing it.

The difference with SoS is that the Witch can do them to much more powerful enemies because the saves don't go up. KOing out a 10th level fighter is hardly any more difficult than KOing a 6th level Fighter, while chopping one up with a sword is much, much harder. It isn't that they can both kill equal level enemies, it is that the witch can kill more powerful ones.


Not sure what the problem is it just goes to sleep. Is BBEG a wizard, then his familiar should be biting him awake (even if the damage is 1d2-1, the hit should happen and BBEG awakens).

A coup is a full round action, and with henchmen near-by should provoke AoO's out the ass, if the henchmen are further away they should be 5 foot stepping up and in the way!


J-Bone wrote:


So basically your countering with an argument that I can paraphrase as Not only can my witch end fights with the Hex ability but it can do all sorts of other awesome stuff that an equal level Wizard can do.

Only if I get to paraphrase your argument by saying you don't like the slumber hex because you don't understand the game system?

You've had alternatives to this pointed out to you over and over that you simply don't want to address. Slumber IS limited, in both range, type of target, number of targets, and duration. There are significantly more powerful combat control abilities that virtually every primary spellcaster has access to, as that is the spellcaster's job.

And yes, as your ENTIRE argument has been based on "PFS bad guys don't have will omg!" I think you should leave your point to that. The second we discuss a freeform game your argument becomes moot, as you've been given a dozen options to build a challenging encounter that bypasses slumber or makes it a power, not a game-ender.

Pathfinder combat isn't 4E D&D. You don't all pile in your special moves on the bad guy until he drops. The system is deadlier, for NPCs and PCs alike.


Lass wrote:

I personally think its broken. I play PFS with a guy who plays a witch and Ive seen the last 3 end fights over in round 1 Slumber Hexes. The last one, Sewer Dragons of Absalom ended with the RP of the the end fight going on which allowed the party to advance and then Slumber Hex. Game over, thanks for coming.

I once played a witch when the APG first came out and had a witch with Slumber Hex. I ruined fight after fight for the first few levels got bored and asked to switch my character to a Wizard.

As Wriathstrike said, the Hex makes a lot of fights really easy, later on monster stats get good. Thing is most campaigns go go to later on. So if the numbers for lvl 10 say anything to me its that for most parties adventuring tenure that Hex dominates.

It is not broken. The issue with PFS is that GM's are very restricted since they can't modify encounters, and there is not such thing as a one size fits all adventure.


cranewings wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
a pimped out fighter can take out a level appropriate foe with 1 round of full attacks. i don't really see a different between a witch doing it or a fighter doing it.
The difference with SoS is that the Witch can do them to much more powerful enemies because the saves don't go up. KOing out a 10th level fighter is hardly any more difficult than KOing a 6th level Fighter, while chopping one up with a sword is much, much harder. It isn't that they can both kill equal level enemies, it is that the witch can kill more powerful ones.

A 10th level fighter should have high saving throws so it there should be a significant difference.


Arguing anything is broken in low levels is sad because EVERYTHING is broken in low levels. A barbarian can 1 shot almost everything with an auto attack without rage at level 1. OMG 2 HANDED FIGHTING SO BROKEN. no its not. It shines low level.This hex is powerful low level and like 2 handed fighting is moderately powerful later on. I built a barbarian based on natural attacks that killed a PFS boss in one round.

Point is it has a time to shine, which is low levels. The fact that you think its less cool than 1 shotting an enemy with an auto attack is irrelevant. What you think is cool or not does not factor into balance and I'm sorry for that.

That being said we've broken it down to.

1) Most situations at low level are kill or die. It's broken like that. It's always like that. It's always been like that. It will always be like that as long as an enemy can get enough damage (which is easy) to one shot squishies due to low health.

2)Many enemies get high saves or immunities to it at higher levels. So it shines at low level and falls off as the game scales.

3)It does basically the same thing for casters at low levels as fighters and barbarians. The only difference is that the the witch gets a limited number of uses per day and it can only be used once per creature.


Slumber can be negated by spending a standard action. want to know how easy it is to get an ally who can do that?

it's as simple as hiring an untrained single hit die maid or other servant. a gold piece could buy you one for a month. before you say a maid wouldn't accept that payment. it's a month's salary all at once. what young untrained maid wouldn't want her first full gold piece?


Many mid to high level monsters are immune to sleep like u dead.

Andoran

Phneri wrote:


You've had alternatives to this pointed out to you over and over that you simply don't want to address. Slumber IS limited, in both range, type of target, number of targets, and duration. There are significantly more powerful combat control abilities that virtually every primary spellcaster has access to, as that is the spellcaster's job.

And those combat control powers of every other spellcaster is limited to a finite number of times it can be used and further limited by circumstances such as SR, AoO, casting reagents.

phneri wrote:


And yes, as your ENTIRE argument has been based on "PFS bad guys don't have will omg!" I think you should leave your point to that. The second we discuss a freeform game your argument becomes moot, as you've been given a dozen options to build a challenging encounter that bypasses slumber or makes it a power, not a game-ender.

Pathfinder combat isn't 4E D&D. You don't all pile in your special moves on the bad guy until he drops. The system is deadlier, for NPCs and PCs alike.

but isnt that what you and several other have been recommending? "pile all your moves by making your opponents elves, undead, or constructs. Add a bunch of minions or boost their Will saves. In other words change most of the encounters in AP or PFS to reduce that PCs effectivenesss to fix something the people at Paizo screwed up in the first place.

Andoran

Thomas Long 175 wrote:


1) Most situations at low level are kill or die. It's broken like that. It's always like that. It's always been like that. It will always be like that as long as an enemy can get enough damage (which is easy) to one shot squishies due to low health.

2)Many enemies get high saves or immunities to it at higher levels. So it shines at low level and falls off as the game scales.

And again, Ive pointed out how this scales with levels. Even showing how it effects a wide variety of monsters at lvl 10. Yet you seem unable to want to deal with the argument that things like high AC, DR and other anti-melee effects give monsters far more defensive options than the Slumber Hex offers. Additionally when comparing it to spells there are far more defensive options to make an encounter more interesting than the every fight, supernatural effect of the Slumber Hex.

Anyway, this has gone round and round. Ive made my point several times and the fact that this is still such a hot issue over a year after the APG release should inform people on why its relative power level.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:

Repeatedly stabs Jimmy then hides the body. nothing to see here -- move along.

Sorry the DM starts not playing by the rules I follow suit, "Sorry it would be more heroic and climatic for the boss to NOT kill me this round and me to Critical with every swing instead."

The DM IS playing by the rules. One of them is Rule Zero. The question is is he being consistent in his applications of Rule Zero. I understand why, he doesn't want his Big Bad to go down to a lowly sleep hex. Of course, the other way to handle this is to make sure his Big Bad is never alone.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Robert Jordan wrote:
The problem of the arms race in this regard has arisen not on the player's end, but on the GM's. Eventually the player will realize that the GM is pursuing their character unfairly compared to the rest of the table. Slumber is powerful hex but no more powerful than any other debuff or crowd control oriented character.

Slumber has range, also theorectically the Witch has an unlimited amount of uses of the Hex, bound only to the one try per target limit.


J-Bone wrote:


Additionally when comparing it to spells there are far more defensive options to make an encounter more interesting than the every fight, supernatural effect of the Slumber Hex.

Anyway, this has gone round and round. Ive made my point several times and the fact that this is still such a hot issue over a year after the APG release should inform people on why its relative power level.

This has gone round and round the same reason 2h weapon + armor spikes, double weapons, trip, etc. have gone round and round. People want to keep talking about it.

I'll leave you with this. You say Slumber is overpowered because it's an unlimited (no it isn't) win the fight.

Black tentacles: No save, no SR, just a grapple check v. every thing in the area. This will beat virtually any medium-sized opposition. A wizard with the int stats you described earlier has 5 or six of these a day. Lasts as long as slumber, hits a MUCH larger area, and can be done from a safe distance (or while invisible)

Feeblemind: Allows SR because it's permanent. Will end the fight immediately. Wizard gets up to four of these a day. Can hit from 200 feet out (almost 3x the range of slumber).

When a similar-level primary spellcasters can have 9 or more options per day (please, please try to tell me all your PFS games run 10+ encounters a day) to immediately end a combat with a single spell at 200 feet away, often while flying and invisible, I find it baffling that you pick on a substantially weaker at-will ability to call broken.


Phneri wrote:


Black tentacles: No save, no SR, just a grapple check v. every thing in the area. This will beat virtually any medium-sized opposition. A wizard with the int stats you described earlier has 5 or six of these a day. Lasts as long as slumber, hits a MUCH larger area, and can be done from a safe distance (or while invisible)

Wow a 10th level Wizard with 5 or 6 Black Tentacle spells. No wonder Phneri doesnt see the Slumber Hex as overpowered.

Great thing about the Slumber Hex is that when Im at a Con it means the game is going to go really fast and I get to go shopping on the floor before the next one. If there is 1 or more summoners, I get to take a nap.


Lass wrote:


Wow a 10th level Wizard with 5 or 6 Black Tentacle spells. No wonder Phneri doesnt see the Slumber Hex as overpowered.

I didn't declare 28 Int to be the standard for a 10th-level PFS character, J-Tone did so he could try to argue the save DCs are too hard. I'm just making use of it :)


Phneri wrote:
J-Bone wrote:


Additionally when comparing it to spells there are far more defensive options to make an encounter more interesting than the every fight, supernatural effect of the Slumber Hex.

Anyway, this has gone round and round. Ive made my point several times and the fact that this is still such a hot issue over a year after the APG release should inform people on why its relative power level.

This has gone round and round the same reason 2h weapon + armor spikes, double weapons, trip, etc. have gone round and round. People want to keep talking about it.

I'll leave you with this. You say Slumber is overpowered because it's an unlimited (no it isn't) win the fight.

Black tentacles: No save, no SR, just a grapple check v. every thing in the area. This will beat virtually any medium-sized opposition. A wizard with the int stats you described earlier has 5 or six of these a day. Lasts as long as slumber, hits a MUCH larger area, and can be done from a safe distance (or while invisible)

Feeblemind: Allows SR because it's permanent. Will end the fight immediately. Wizard gets up to four of these a day. Can hit from 200 feet out (almost 3x the range of slumber).

When a similar-level primary spellcasters can have 9 or more options per day (please, please try to tell me all your PFS games run 10+ encounters a day) to immediately end a combat with a single spell at 200 feet away, often while flying and invisible, I find it baffling that you pick on a substantially weaker at-will ability to call broken.

Well stated!


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Ok.. So here's my take on this.. I haven't read the whole thread, but enough to get the gist. If I had a player who had an ability that could take out my BBEG too easily in the final fight, here's what I would do:

Give the BBEG an opportunity to find out about the ability and then do something about it. Presumably, the players will be tangling with the BBEG's minions.. word should get back eventually that there's a witch in the party. Assuming the BBEG is remotely intelligent, they'll do their homework and discover something that could protect them. I wouldn't make it a 100% chance.. Say something like an illusion spell to get the witch to target the wrong thing (making a minion look like the BBEG), something to increase the Will save, etc... This can apply to its minions too. If the BBEG thinks the minions on an important mission will be targeted by the party, it might use minions with higher Will saves, provide items that will protect them, etc.

It should be realistic, don't just give every minion a +10 Will Save ring, but assume that the BBEG is going to be proactive in combating threats it sees. If the party somehow completely hides that there's a witch in the party (by killing any possible survivors, making sure that no one outside of them who could talk knows the character's a witch, avoids being scryed, etc) then the BBEG shouldn't be able to prepare specifically for a Witch.. but I'm guessing there are very few parties who can completely cover their tracks!

I realize that the original post didn't even refer to a BBEG, but as the party's reputation increases more and more of the groups they go up against should have taken at least some preparations.


Phneri wrote:
J-Bone wrote:


Additionally when comparing it to spells there are far more defensive options to make an encounter more interesting than the every fight, supernatural effect of the Slumber Hex.

Anyway, this has gone round and round. Ive made my point several times and the fact that this is still such a hot issue over a year after the APG release should inform people on why its relative power level.

This has gone round and round the same reason 2h weapon + armor spikes, double weapons, trip, etc. have gone round and round. People want to keep talking about it.

I'll leave you with this. You say Slumber is overpowered because it's an unlimited (no it isn't) win the fight.

Black tentacles: No save, no SR, just a grapple check v. every thing in the area. This will beat virtually any medium-sized opposition. A wizard with the int stats you described earlier has 5 or six of these a day. Lasts as long as slumber, hits a MUCH larger area, and can be done from a safe distance (or while invisible)

Feeblemind: Allows SR because it's permanent. Will end the fight immediately. Wizard gets up to four of these a day. Can hit from 200 feet out (almost 3x the range of slumber).

When a similar-level primary spellcasters can have 9 or more options per day (please, please try to tell me all your PFS games run 10+ encounters a day) to immediately end a combat with a single spell at 200 feet away, often while flying and invisible, I find it baffling that you pick on a substantially weaker at-will ability to call broken.

The argument that an ability cant be broken because I know this other spell/ability that I can stockpile 5-6 times a day thats REALLY REALLY broken is laughable. I hope you guys enjoy your games, they dont sound fun.


Lass wrote:
The argument that an ability cant be broken because I know this other spell/ability that I can stockpile 5-6 times a day thats REALLY REALLY broken is laughable. I hope you guys enjoy your games, they dont sound fun.

Sounds better than yours. "I don't like this ability so you can't have it anymore."

"ok?"

Tell me at the end of the day is killing monsters OP so you're all level 1 NPC's?

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