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I have to agree with ken, flipper. You are unintentionally preventing the witch from using one of her powers on a wider variety of enemies than you might think.
Keep in mind that Hit Dice are not always directly related to Challenge Rating. It is entirely plausible for a creature to have a CR that is lower than the number of HD it possesses. Thus, even in situations where the CR matches up with the party level, the witch wouldn't have a chance to use her ability against that enemy.
Sleep = Death.
All it takes is a coup de grace, and regardless of what creature it was, it is now dead. The only comparable spells are sleep which has a full round casting time, and 4 HD limit, and hold person, which allows a save every round, and keeps you conscious.
I would totally limit that to 4HD as per the spell, or better yet, no more then caster level, and I hope that paizo does something similar. Another option would be to make it the drowsy hex, which acts as a slow spell for rounds per level. Any damage removes the effect, as does another creature taking a standard action. That would be much more in line with an ability gained at level 1
Looking at the other hexes, the slumber hex is MUCH more powerful, and with 30ft. range and unlimited use, should probably be at least a major hex.
Lets look at the Hex in question:
"Slumber (Su): A witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to fall into a deep, magical sleep, as per the spell sleep. The creature receives a Will save to negate the effect. If the save fails, the creature falls asleep for a number of rounds equal to the witch’s level. This hex can affect a creature of any HD. The creature will not wake due to noise or light, but others can rouse it with a standard action. This hex ends immediately if the creature takes damage. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day."
It only hits a target once per day and has a will save. It affects one target at a time and has no "save for partial" it's hit or miss. A standard action cancels the effect, and the range is only 30 feet. That's rather close to be to something. Any damage immediately ends the effect too (so full attacking and then hitting your buddy for 1 damage with an unarmed strike at the end of the attack sequence would wake him up too without a standard action).
This is on par with ghoul touch, Deeper slumber, or Hold person. Yes the DC scales by it's not insane on power level (indeed Good Will saves are one of the most common types for monsters, and several monster types are flat out immune to sleep effects).
To limit it to "Caster level or less" makes it an NPC only power. The instances where a PC would actually have a chance to use it would be so few and far between to render the power almost completely useless to him.
At the end of the day the only way this is going to "break" an encounter as it stands now is if there is only one monster that the party is facing.
If you are going to limit this are you going to nerf all the other SOD/SOS spells that are left too?
OK, I'm not saying this is the best spell in the game, or even a spell...or that SoD/SoS has no place.
But this is an unlimited ability usable all day for the witch, AND they get full casting! Other classes are getting little claws, or 1d6 fire bolts usable 3+Ability times per day.
But sleep is pretty much death with a will save. It should be a major hex.
It's not unlimited. It's once per opponent and most times an actual spell would be better. Color spray is more useful at lower levels (up until around level 4~5), or the sleep spell itself (which will affect most low level bosses and can have a higher DC at longer range). It affects one target and in LOF I remember most of the bosses either having minions immediately around them OR being close to an automatic TPK in their own right.
At rounds per level at low level you MUST be right on top of the opponent or you won't get the coup'd'grac. Personally I would rather have Ward (free +2 ring of protection and cloak of resistance for one ally), or Evil Eye (penalties that can stack up).
Heck I'm surprised that at will Daze hasn't been an issue for you yet then.
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nothing to see here -- move along.
Sorry the DM starts not playing by the rules I follow suit, "Sorry it would be more heroic and climatic for the boss to NOT kill me this round and me to Critical with every swing instead."
You people do know DM trick #1 don't you?? DM Screen is your best friend!!! It prevents the PCs from seeing your rolls.. "Oh you're trying to Slumber BBEG to end the fight on round 1?" DM rolls(3) "He passed his save with a roll of (15) added to his save, he made it by 3.. close though!"
DM's are for all intents and purposes allowed to cheat in order to make the game more fun for the entire group.. do you think they will like killing all the BBEGs in round 1?.. After the second or third time it gets lame, longer fights are more involved but also more fun.. and they will feel like you are a better DM for not throwing a trash boss at them, but a beast that pushed their limits.
You are right and you are wrong.
Yes, DMs are encouraged to keep the game interesting. But that encouragement is in all aspects of play, not just in cheating on the dice.
If you give a character an ability, and then never let him use it, what's the point? If every time the witch says "I put your BBEG to sleep" and you say "Nope, failed again", you're punishing the player for choosing that class with that ability. What's next? Every time the fighter uses Power Attack will you add 20 extra HP to the monster? Every time the wizard casts Scorching Ray will you give the monster Fire Resist 10?
No, I'm not saying I think you do that stuff. But you are advocating screwing the witch. If this player were in your game, he would be better off if you just limit the hex to his level - at least then he will know when it will work and when you'll screw him over.
Back to my initial statement. DMs are encouraged to keep the game interesting. So fix the class ability in the first place. Make it interesting for the player to use it without making you feel the need to cheat him out of any effective use of the power by faking die rolls.
Wouldn't that be more interesting, and more fair, that just negating the player's class ability?
Damn Jimmy just got stabbed...
They...They dun Killd'd him.
He was my onnnly brother!
/hollywood shuffle
Dazed: The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC. A dazed condition typically lasts 1 round.
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
Paralyzed: A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can't swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.
I am a bit conflicted on this ability, it seems quite powerful. Add to it, it provokes no AoO and allows no spell resistance, I might opt to give a higher HD creature a + 4 on saves.
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If it's seriously screwing up your game as you say then work out a compromise with the player. I would say this with any class but with the playtest classes in particular. In spite of it's fairly wide use the class is still beta and it's entirely possible that this will change before print.
I tend to agree that an at will scaling save or die is a bit much even if it is only once per day/ creature. I've heard a few people say this is OP. Be interesting to see if it makes it to print.
If you do nerf it make sure you give your player the option to swap it out for something else.
Just start adding Half-Dragon to every BBEG.
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I initially houseruled slumber the same way, but after a good discussion with my player, decided to leave it as is unless there was a major problem with how it played. I can report it has not been unbalanced so far.
One point to consider, the slumber hex is one of the few really good abilities a witch character possesses. It is IMO akin to nerfing a paladin's smite evil or a cleric's channeling. Yes they get other hexes, and yes some of them are good, but slumber is very good. I warned my witch player not to go around town using it on common people to excess and have had no problems so far. Yes, hes resulted in a fair number of coup de graces, but so has the cleric and wizard with hold person and the like. The main way I can see it being unfair is at low levels, you can take a 1 level dip of witch and get a nearly at will ability to sleep people. Barring that, I would suggest you let the hex work as intended, and see what happens.
First off I think your player should be happy to get the chance to play a playtest class.
With that said I think it is important you find a solution with the player. It is always better to stand on common ground, as I am sure your player will understand that the power can undermine the fun for all.
Lastly I think jimmy has a good point. DMs are allowed to fudge rolls. We should not do it every time we do not agree with how things are turning out, but do it when it is important to keep the game interesting. Fudging goes both ways. Sometimes it favors monsters sometimes the PCs.
However, I would never let the BBEG kill a player after i had fudged it to stay alive. That would be uncool.
You could allow a save to daze and a save to sleep on the next round. The duration could be your level minus the CR of the target (so it will only daze creatures of your CR or higher). You might want to allow the power to be used any number of times against the same target as long as the target continues to fail saves, though, to make up for the nerf.
Just an idea how you could nerf the power, while still letting it seem better in some ways (i.e., unlimited uses against the same target as long as the target continues to fail saves).
Just because most of us know about it doesn't mean we all believe in it. Personally speaking I absolutely refuse to ever fudge rolls OR use a screen. My games are every bit as much in the open to my players as to me.
Damn Jimmy just got stabbed...They...They dun Killd'd him.
He was my onnnly brother!
/hollywood shuffle
It's just a flesh wound... it's getting better!
Love blatant Monte Python plugs ^_^
Seriously, bein a shankopotomus just cause I said what most of the boards already know and/or have experience isn't very nice.. I may just have to DM fudge my reflex save vs. that stabbing... ooh look I only took half damage(still workin on gettin evasion)!! :P
Me, neither. I see that as DM laziness, personally.
Until the APG comes out, we don't know what the final version of slumber will be.
However, if you want to change it, I'd suggest something like this :
Normally affects any creature who's CR is equal to or less than the Witch's CL+1. Any creature with a CR greater than the witch's CL+1 is instead fatigued until they take a move action to shake off the affects. If the creature critically fails his save, he falls asleep regardless of CR.
That divorces it from HD. And, you might want to use CL (Class Level) rather than CL (Character Level) for that.
Hey everyone.
I am running legacy of Fire and one of the players wanted to play the witch from the advanced Players Guide final play test. I restricted the sleep hex ability to only be able to affect targets that are equal to the characters HD or lower. The ability still scales in power with level in both DC and creatures it is able to affect.
Am I being fair as a DM?
Yes, absolutely.
Most BBEGs should have minions. Why don't they just wake him up?
Just start adding Half-Dragon to every BBEG.That, is a form of screwing the player. It would be like deliberately changing your planned campaign to an undead focused one from something else just because your wizard specialized in enchantment.
Having a dragon here or there? Epic.
Having SOME half-dragons? Cool
Littering the campaign with half-dragons? Not cool.
Sorry, forgot to include my <tongue-in-cheek> tags.
My gf's half-orc Witch has gotten pretty good mileage out of Slumber + Greataxe. It hasn't made her the overpowered superstar of the party, but the DM does seem concerned about it. On the one hand, if you Slumber a mook that's probably about the same as blowing him up, chopping him in half, etc - no big deal. If you Slumber a BBEG that's kind of a pain in the DM's dicebag though.
Our DM feels that Protection from <Witch's Alignment> would stop the ability from working. Protection from Chaos potions are only 50gp, and 1st level caster buddies are free. The problem with that is knowing the Witch's alignment.
As an aside, I personally don't like coup de grace much. I'm only a little wary of True Neutral NPC Witches spamming Slumber us, but I've also had problems with CDG as a DM. One of my storylines has a lot of ghoul and ghasts. The PCs should make most of the Fort saves easily, but of course somebody rolls a 1, and then it is a big emergency to go save them before one of the enemies gets a turn. I'd kind of rather see CDG just be an auto-hit/auto-crit and leave it at that. If you feel like this would weaken CDG too much I guess you could raise the multiplier of the weapon by x1 (swords etc would do x3, axes x4). Either way it would turn Slumber (and ghouls) from SoD into an auto crit (which still seems like a pretty nice power to me). The enemy also ends up prone, so really it would be tough for him to survive, but at least there's a fighting chance.
First off I think your player should be happy to get the chance to play a playtest class.
BINGO.
The player is playing a class that is known to be under revision and experimentation. The DM is in his or her rights to modify the class as he or she sees fit depending on discoveries at the gaming table. That being said, cooperation and negotiation fit in here nicely, so both sides have to be happy.
I've got a witch in my Council of Thieves campaign. The sleep hex hasn't been problematic so far. Given the paladin is busy smiting the living crap out of BBEG types, a little sleep here or there is no big deal.
I am currently running the only Witch in our group (we have separate monthly and weekly games, this is for the monthly) and are in the middle of a "going up river" style module my friend is running. I have been able to use the hex ONCE, and the BBEG saved. Then I Black Tentacled him, and he was stuck for the rest of the fight. I really hated being that close with my character, and he hit me a couple times with other spells (I saved), but the rest of teh party was busy with the mooks, or trying to get up the damn cliff face, so it was mostly a delaying tactic until the hitters could come round.
Then again, I do not play with the same blood lust some of your players seem to exhibit, and we tend to take prisoners a lot. YMMV of course, but I think the power is fine as written, the problem is munchkined players.
I am currently running the only Witch in our group (we have separate monthly and weekly games, this is for the monthly) and are in the middle of a "going up river" style module my friend is running. I have been able to use the hex ONCE, and the BBEG saved. Then I Black Tentacled him, and he was stuck for the rest of the fight. I really hated being that close with my character, and he hit me a couple times with other spells (I saved), but the rest of teh party was busy with the mooks, or trying to get up the damn cliff face, so it was mostly a delaying tactic until the hitters could come round.
Then again, I do not play with the same blood lust some of your players seem to exhibit, and we tend to take prisoners a lot. YMMV of course, but I think the power is fine as written, the problem is munchkined players.
What was your "go-to" ability at level 1, then? It just seems to me that it would be worth using pretty much every round, if possible.
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If you're going to put a hit die cap on it, make it caster level +4, that way it somewhat mimics the sleep spell. If you make it caster level then it's a useless ability. Even caster level +4 means there are situations where it won't have any effect, but at least you have a better chance. Monsters and BBEG almost always have more HD than the players
If you're going to put a hit die cap on it, make it caster level +4, that way it somewhat mimics the sleep spell. If you make it caster level then it's a useless ability.
I think first it should be decided "How useful is a hex supposed to be?"
Wizards, for instance, get full spellcasting and a fairly weak class ability (e.g. the enchantment school's Dazing Touch power). So does it make sense for the witch class to get full spellcasting and a fairly strong class ability? And is the Slumber hex on a par with the other offensive hexes of its level (e.g. Evil Eye or Misfortune)? I have my opinions on the matter, but every GM needs to answer this for himself or herself.
So does it make sense for the witch class to get full spellcasting and a fairly strong class ability?
The witch can, based on class spells-per-day and int mod, cast the same number of spells a Wizard can, yes.
Except the wizard gets an extra spell from his specialization school per spell level, 39 1st level spell choices (and I consider each one of them a choice because the wizard can choose his opposition schools based on what spells in what schools look uninteresting to him) vs. 23 1st level spell choices, and a free 1/day spontaneous cast from his bonded object.
At first level, yes, they're very similar and the witch pulls ahead because of their hexes. By twelfth level, though, you're definitely going to see a big difference between the witch and the wizard in terms of raw magical power and also differentiation in play styles.
They're similar but the witch has definitely not got that much over the wizard.
What was your "go-to" ability at level 1, then? It just seems to me that it would be worth using pretty much every round, if possible.
Dunno, he was brought in @ 7th level as a replacement for my Air Elemental Sorcerer, Boffo the Magnificent. (Sigh, I miss Boffo). I took the Cauldron Hex @ 1st level (RP Choice, made easier by starting at a higher level) so I probably would have just run away a lot :) And it needs to be re-emphasized- It only works 1/day per target. And it only targets one creature at a time. And the DM for that game never throws just one thing at us at once.
@ Ice Titan- Agree, very much so. While you CAN make a combat critter out of a witch, they do not compare on versatility or staying power at mid to high levels.
New, extremely cheap, magical item: Sleepbane Amulet. Deals you 1 point of damage whenever you fail a Will save.
New, extremely cheap, magical item: Sleepbane Amulet. Deals you 1 point of damage whenever you fail a Will save.
Facepalm gloves- If knocked unconscious, gloved hand will smack wearer in face, doing 1d3 +STR subduing damage?
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The witch has plenty of really good hexes, losing this one isn't going to trash the class.
Flight - very good
Evil Eye - Nice debuff
Cackle - Extend Evil Eye indefinitely even if they made there save
Misfortune - Used in combination with the above... very nasty and cackle extends it.
Evil eye plus slumber is devastating past 8th level, even people with good will saves are going to miss this a lot with the -4 from evil eye.
Misfortune is pretty devastating also.
If you're going to put a hit die cap on it, make it caster level +4, that way it somewhat mimics the sleep spell. If you make it caster level then it's a useless ability.I think first it should be decided "How useful is a hex supposed to be?"
Wizards, for instance, get full spellcasting and a fairly weak class ability (e.g. the enchantment school's Dazing Touch power). So does it make sense for the witch class to get full spellcasting and a fairly strong class ability? And is the Slumber hex on a par with the other offensive hexes of its level (e.g. Evil Eye or Misfortune)? I have my opinions on the matter, but every GM needs to answer this for himself or herself.
See here's my thing:
Wizards get specialization, and extra spells per day off of this, in addition to a choice on their familiar or item. Their spell list is a bit more versatile with more direct action spells too (not by much but it is some).
Witches are currently the only class without a means (in class) of expanding their spell slots per day -- they end up with the fewest slots per day of any of the full 9th level spell casting classes.
Personally when playing a witch I just haven't seen the sleep hex as a good choice. It's too limited in scope (many monsters are immune), can't be used repeatedly (like evil eye can) has no effect if the save is made, and is short ranged with only a single target. Overall I would much rather have evil eye, fortune, misfortune, or ward.
I even ended up taking the healing hex before I would have taken the sleep hex since the healing hex ended up being an extra 5 spells slots I knew I would use in the day.
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To be honest I haven't played or GMed a witch so I'm not going to go back and forth about whether slumber is OP or not. My feeling is an at will SoD with a scaling DC is too much but that's all it is is a feeling.
In the original posters case he is seeing a beta class that's disrupting his table and IMO he's absolutely being fair in limiting that (again providing he gives the player options). When the final is released in August I'll worry about it a bit more.
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Having played the witch as my primary society character for a few months now:
Slumber isn't all that overpowered so long as you recognize that you have a SOS/SOD enchanter in the group. That means you respond by putting lightly spicing encounters up with some vermin, undead, or other mindaffecting immune creatures where appropriate.
In addition, one chance to hit on a creature each day is in fact a big deal. My witch is society based. She's got a 20 int and runs off of a strength dump stat she absolutely has no use for. Is she powerful? Yes. Much like any SOS/SOD caster is.
Depending on the adventure, a witch can either wreck encounters or be absolutely and completely useless. One of the society mods we played in had only vermin and undead as enemies, leaving my witch completely out of the fight aside from being a cure light wounds dispenser via her wands.
Remember that the witch at 1st level is effectively trading actions with the enemy, assuming they don't save. She's spending a standard to force them to spend a move and a standard. That's actually not a bad deal for the NPC given that a wizard could have done some actual damage. In order to kill an enemy, the witch has to act to sleep the enemy, and a party member must be close by to initiate a coup de gras. That's a party using 2 actions to MAYBE kill something. Note that a coup de gras is a full round action and does not resolve until the initiative order comes back around! If the mob wakes up between the start and end of the coup de gras they are no longer helpless and the coup de gras fails. Or if you're generous becomes a regular attack against a prone opponent. Also note that a coup de gras provokes attacks of opportunity. Basically, don't throw enemies at a witch alone.
The witch has no actual way to kill an enemy for a very very long time. Unless you take the viper familiar you basically have no damage spells at all, and even then you don't get them until you hit the level a sorcerer would access that spell level. To balance this, they're VERY VERY good at command/control casting.
The problem with the sleep effect is the duration. Its rounds/level scale too quickly. At level 1, it's fine. To get a coup de gras at level 1 a group would need people in melee delaying their coup de gras actions waiting for the witch to land a sleep which they only get one shot at. Meanwhile other unattended mobs are getting a huge amount of action economy from not being actively assaulted. It's at level 2 where the coup de gras can start becoming a problem, if someone's already in melee. Still, at 2 rounds the act of moving up to the target prevents a coup de gras from occuring. (Move action prevents the coup de gras from occuring on round one, coup de gras initiates on round 2, subject wakes up prior to resolution on round 3.)
The way I see it if you really MUST nerf the witch, you have the following options:
1) Give sleep hex a uses per day limit. If you do this, REMOVE THE ONCE PER TARGET PER DAY restriction. This is a decent way to 'fix' the ability. I still say the uses limitations as is are fine.
2) Impose the HD limit on sleep. I do not like this option. The sleep hex having no HD cap is one of the things that makes the witch truly unique among the spellcasters. She is a command/control caster and damn good at it. Removing her primary command/control hex from use on half the monsters you fight is bad. Remember, HD increases far, FAR faster than CR, and CR tends to scale even faster than level. Frankly, the sleep spell line in the core rulebook would be more balanced if it didn't have an HD cap, since its DC doesn't actually ever increase. Basically, this is a BAD way to do it. It's pretty much a terrible blow to the player and the class as a whole.
3) Cut the duration of the sleep to 1/2 level, minimum 1 round. This prevents the witch from getting 2 rounds of sleep on a mob until level 4, and really effectively preventing coup de gras attacks until then. It prevents move-and-CDG until level 8. At level 8, if you can't deal with a command/control caster taking out a single monster each round, you're a bad GM. Frankly, they're going to be doing it to entire groups with their AE spells. This is by far the best way to fix the ability IMO, and as a person who both plays a witch and GMs a lot, this is where I'd like to see them put it in the APG.
Depending on the adventure, a witch can either wreck encounters or be absolutely and completely useless. One of the society mods we played in had only vermin and undead as enemies, leaving my witch completely out of the fight aside from being a cure light wounds dispenser via her wands.
This reminds me of the 3.5 PHB2 Beguiler.. If the enemies didn't have sky-high Will saves or mind-affecting immunity, the Beguiler could handle the entire encounter by herself (leading to the other PCs not really doing anything except coup-de-grace'ing), while if they DID have sky-high Will saves or immunity, the Beguiler did absolutely nothing (which led to the encounters being pretty tough on the remaining PCs).
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This reminds me of the 3.5 PHB2 Beguiler.. If the enemies didn't have sky-high Will saves or mind-affecting immunity, the Beguiler could handle the entire encounter by herself (leading to the other PCs not really doing anything except coup-de-grace'ing), while if they DID have sky-high Will saves or immunity, the Beguiler did absolutely nothing (which led to the encounters being pretty tough on the remaining PCs).
I played a beguiler in 3.5 as well. (I love enchanter type casters. Can you tell?)
Anyway, the witch is like a severely toned down and not asininely broken beguiler. The beguiler's main issue was they had access to way, way, way too many spells that they could randomly spontaneously cast, and then they added in the 11 or so skills per level if you got decent rolls.
The witch only has one truly moderately broken hex in the slumber hex. Cutting the duration to 1/2 level progression completely fixes it too. Also, I need to edit the move-and-CDG comment. 1/2 level progression allows that at level 6, but really a witch is going to glitterdust you into the ground at that point.
That's a party using 2 actions to MAYBE kill something. Note that a coup de gras is a full round action and does not resolve until the initiative order comes back around! If the mob wakes up between the start and end of the coup de gras they are no longer helpless and the coup de gras fails.
This part isn't true: A coup de gras is a full attack action, but it does not wait until the next round to resolve. Otherwise full attacking would not resolve until the next round.
Casting a spell with a full round action also resolves in the round it is cast -- a spell with a casting time of 1 round isn't the same and takes until the next round to cast.