Rogue Eidolon's Guide to Rogues


Advice

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It is a shame rogues do not have more guides, but i supposeis a big endeavor.


Thanks, found this that helped clarify... It would have been awesome though.

[Source]

Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as having that spell on its spell list for the purpose of activating spell completion or spell trigger items?

No. A spell-like ability is not a spell, having a spell-like ability is not part of a class's spell list, and therefore doesn't give the creature the ability to activate spell completion or spell trigger items.

[Source]


Bravo's guide to the Knife Master Scout

View here.

Nicos wrote:
It is a shame rogues do not have more guides, but i supposeis a big endeavor.

Liberty's Edge

You mentioned in the guide that the rogue TWF should have short swords because you can take WF Shortsword for both. Can the same not be said for rapiers? I am not sure if it's a huge deal since rapiers and short swords are basically the same damage, just wondering.

Silver Crusade

Rapiers are not light weapons, but you can use weapon finesse with it for attack. Shortswords are light weapons and give you less of a penalty than rapiers. It's the difference between -4/-4 and -2/-2.


Quote:


Archery:

Right away, we have to ask ourselves--how in the world are we going to be getting our Sneak Attacks from range? There's a few answers to this question. In 3.5, having enough ranks in Balance, Climb, and the like allowed characters to avoid being flat-footed while performing those sorts of actions. In Pathfinder, even if you have 20 ranks in Acrobatics, you'll always be flat-footed when balancing unless you happen to be a Rogue with that awful Ledge Walker talent,

I believe this is not strictly true. Uncanny dodge makes you immune to being flat footed, so all rogues and barbarians of sufficient level are not flat-footed when balancing. This will be a small minority of all targets tough.

Losing your dexterity bonus is something you can suffer on its' own, such as when climbing. Uncanny dodge won't help you against such effects.


Another point; even if you want to do ranged sneak attacks, TWF and 2 daggers might be better than a bow. Saves on feats and allows greater focus. At 30 ft., the range penalty is tolerable.

Since you will need Quick Draw, you might as well be throwing Darts to increase range. 30 ft. range is just enough. And your strength penalty to damage will feel less sucky if you do 1 damage whatever you roll (Small dart 1d2, 7 Str -2, but minimum damage is still 1). See, there is still a use for the dart :o.

A ranged option against high-AC targets is to either learn a cantrip or get a cloak of the hedge wizard - conjuration. This lets you make ranged sneak attacks. Only one per round, but it is a touch attack.

With UMD, if you want to go mad with ranged touch attacks, get a Wand of Fire Shuriken, CL 15. 8 separate ranged touch attacks at once. Each doing 1d8 fire damage and capable of sneak attacking. 22,500 gp for 50 charges. At level 9, this is an average of 176 if they all hit. Very nice for a surprise round - when no full attack is allowed.


So I read through the rogue guide and there's no advice about prestige classes. I was wondering if the Duelist PrC is any good for a TWF Swashbuckler archetype or if I should just stick to core?


Starfox wrote:

Another point; even if you want to do ranged sneak attacks, TWF and 2 daggers might be better than a bow. Saves on feats and allows greater focus. At 30 ft., the range penalty is tolerable.

Since you will need Quick Draw, you might as well be throwing Darts to increase range. 30 ft. range is just enough. And your strength penalty to damage will feel less sucky if you do 1 damage whatever you roll (Small dart 1d2, 7 Str -2, but minimum damage is still 1). See, there is still a use for the dart :o.

Minimum damage is 1 non-lethal.

Get a Whetstone (near the very bottom of the page).

Whetstone:
Price 2 cp; Weight 1 lb.

A whetstone allows you to sharpen a blade by sliding it against the stone at a precise angle. Honing a blade with a whetstone requires about 15 minutes of work and grants the weapon a +1 bonus on your damage roll the first time you hit with it. This only works on nonmagical blades.

/cevah


Hey all,

Going to be in a RotRL campaign soon. Looking @ a dwarf rogue concept, wanted feedback on the build.

Stats: STR 14, DEX 17, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 13, CHA 10

DM isn't keen on "dump" stats, but I could drop CHA to 8-9 w/out too much argument, since he won't be party face - pretty much the scout/backup combat support.

My idea is to go with a dwarven waraxe that he can use one or two-handed as required for some really solid damage output (1D10)- especially with his sneak attack factored in. If you account for the x3 crit multiplier, he could really put the hurt on, esp since I've had issues overcoming DR in previous campaigns with lighter D6 weapons.

The guide points out the benefits of the extra TWF attack for damage, but I'm thinking the waraxe is something the average rogue wouldn't have available - similar to the half-orc & his greataxe/falchion. Plus, he would have better chances to hit without the TWF penalties - at 1st lvl, he's got a -2 on both attacks, with no BAB to help. Then, at 2nd lvl, he's burning a rogue talent on Finesse to have a reasonable chance to hit. The waraxe would also then be far less feat intensive, which is appealing.

If this is a solid plan, should I switch STR & DEX? It seems the bonus to DEX will benefit more things (initiative, core rogue skills, AC, ranged combat, & reflex saves off the top of my head) than it would to STR (melee damage - using a light crossbow - & climb/swim are all I got).

Any advice/ thoughts would be very much appreciated!


synjon wrote:

Hey all,

Going to be in a RotRL campaign soon. Looking @ a dwarf rogue concept, wanted feedback on the build.

Stats: STR 14, DEX 17, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 13, CHA 10

DM isn't keen on "dump" stats, but I could drop CHA to 8-9 w/out too much argument, since he won't be party face - pretty much the scout/backup combat support.

My idea is to go with a dwarven waraxe that he can use one or two-handed as required for some really solid damage output (1D10)- especially with his sneak attack factored in. If you account for the x3 crit multiplier, he could really put the hurt on, esp since I've had issues overcoming DR in previous campaigns with lighter D6 weapons.

The guide points out the benefits of the extra TWF attack for damage, but I'm thinking the waraxe is something the average rogue wouldn't have available - similar to the half-orc & his greataxe/falchion. Plus, he would have better chances to hit without the TWF penalties - at 1st lvl, he's got a -2 on both attacks, with no BAB to help. Then, at 2nd lvl, he's burning a rogue talent on Finesse to have a reasonable chance to hit. The waraxe would also then be far less feat intensive, which is appealing.

If this is a solid plan, should I switch STR & DEX? It seems the bonus to DEX will benefit more things (initiative, core rogue skills, AC, ranged combat, & reflex saves off the top of my head) than it would to STR (melee damage - using a light crossbow - & climb/swim are all I got).

Any advice/ thoughts would be very much appreciated!

Been playing RotRL as a rogue.

To do list:
1) Don't depend on flanking for decent damage (not good damage, but higher than base weapon damage after low low levels[1-4ish]), like a feint build, or intimidate build, or Strength rogue
2) Have a viable range option (as in better than base weapon damage after low low levels. Skill focus UMD is not a bad idea)

Strength rogues are viable, but they rub me the wrong way. I like single weapon feint builds. It frees up room to add feats like skill focus (UMD,Bluff) and deceitful

Minor Magic talent also allows the rogue to take arcane strike which is basically free damage.

NOTE: The x3 crit won't do much since sneak attack die do not multiply. Base Weapon damage + str mod will though, which for low levels is still an instant kill. Also you seem to allude to sneak attacks being auto crits? If you did that's not true.

NOTE2: TWF feint build is nice-ish, moonstalker is another route)

NOTE3: If you are going Dex build you can afford to trade Int and Str.


* I was just saying a D10 weapon with a x3 crit multiplier could do serious damage just as is. No, it won't happen that often, but when it does... Adding the precise damage after multiplying would just be icing. And yes, I'm aware that sneak attacks do not auto-crit.

* I'm not familiar with doing a feint build. Any suggestions on how best to go this route? Might be worth considering... My main concern is that I believe feint uses bluff (CHA), & the character will be a dwarf.

* I'm thinking that since the build I described above is less feat heavy, it should open up some room to boost his range attacks - deadly aim & rapid reload come to mind right off. Arcane Strike & weapon focus could also come into play. Getting a single sneak attack with his crossbow would do some reasonable damage with the precise damage factored in. Obviously, not so much if I were to face something immune to the precise damage...


synjon wrote:

* I was just saying a D10 weapon with a x3 crit multiplier could do serious damage just as is. No, it won't happen that often, but when it does... Adding the precise damage after multiplying would just be icing. And yes, I'm aware that sneak attacks do not auto-crit.

* I'm not familiar with doing a feint build. Any suggestions on how best to go this route? Might be worth considering... My main concern is that I believe feint uses bluff (CHA), & the character will be a dwarf.

* I'm thinking that since the build I described above is less feat heavy, it should open up some room to boost his range attacks - deadly aim & rapid reload come to mind right off. Arcane Strike & weapon focus could also come into play. Getting a single sneak attack with his crossbow would do some reasonable damage with the precise damage factored in. Obviously, not so much if I were to face something immune to the precise damage...

Build I'm going to use soon:
CN Half-Elf Rogue || 10 18 14 14 10 10 || Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Stealth ||5|| Bluff,Use Magic Device, Perception||3|| Secondary Skills(2); Climb, Diplomacy, Disguise, Knowledge(dungeoneering,local), Linguistics, Sense Motive, Swim

1 |Combat Expertise, Skill Focus(Bluff)
2 |Finesse Rogue
3 |Deceitful
4 |Combat Trick(Improved Feint)
5 |Skill Focus(UMD)
6 |Minor Magic(Prestidigitation)
7 |Arcane Strike
8 |Major Magic(Silent Image)
9 |Greater Feint
10|Skill Mastery(Bluff, UMD, Stealth, Disable Device, Acrobatics)
11|Extra Rogue Talent(Opportunist)
12|Familiar
13|Improved Familiar(Small Air Elemental)
14|Crippling Strike
15|Extra Rogue talent(Dispelling Attack)
16|Feat(Combat Reflexes)
17|Extra Rogue Talent(Hard to fool)
18|Unwitting Ally
19|Quick Draw
20|Skill Mastery
*If mythic*
Mythic Feats: Weapon Finesse, Arcane Strike, Improved Familiar, Combat Expertise, Quickdraw
Mythic Path: Longevity, Impossible Speed, Fleet Warrior, Precision, Precision, Limitless Range, Unstoppable Shot, Perfect Strike, Critical Master, Critical Master
At lvl 11 with a +1 agile rapier and 22 dex
Feint + Opportunist + Arcane Strike = 2 sneak attacks at +15 to-hit for 7d6+10
Flanking + Haste + Opportunist + Arcane Strike =4 sneak attack at +18/+18/+18/+13 to-hit for 7d6+10
(rough math for fighter to-hit = 11-3+2+2+6 = 18, rough math on damage 2d6+22)

That's how I do a feint build. at least 10cha + skillmaster + feats that boost bluff is enough to auto succeed.


The guide seems to be a bit out of date. I was hoping to find some advice on the new feats and rogue talents in UC, APG, etc. Anyone know of a review or blog entry that covers them?


Calybos1 wrote:

The guide seems to be a bit out of date. I was hoping to find some advice on the new feats and rogue talents in UC, APG, etc. Anyone know of a review or blog entry that covers them?

There is the feat Shadow Strike and the advance talent Hard Minded.

Aside from that? Some neat items in UE, the rest isn't all that useful as far as I know for non-strength rogues.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Starfox wrote:

Another point; even if you want to do ranged sneak attacks, TWF and 2 daggers might be better than a bow. Saves on feats and allows greater focus. At 30 ft., the range penalty is tolerable.

Since you will need Quick Draw, you might as well be throwing Darts to increase range. 30 ft. range is just enough. And your strength penalty to damage will feel less sucky if you do 1 damage whatever you roll (Small dart 1d2, 7 Str -2, but minimum damage is still 1). See, there is still a use for the dart :o.

A ranged option against high-AC targets is to either learn a cantrip or get a cloak of the hedge wizard - conjuration. This lets you make ranged sneak attacks. Only one per round, but it is a touch attack.

With UMD, if you want to go mad with ranged touch attacks, get a Wand of Fire Shuriken, CL 15. 8 separate ranged touch attacks at once. Each doing 1d8 fire damage and capable of sneak attacking. 22,500 gp for 50 charges. At level 9, this is an average of 176 if they all hit. Very nice for a surprise round - when no full attack is allowed.

Unfortunately the Fire Shuriken example does not work. See the relevant FAQ below:

FAQ wrote:

Sneak Attack: Can I add sneak attack damage to simultaneous attacks from a spell?

No. For example, scorching ray fires simultaneous rays at one or more targets, and the extra damage is only added once to one ray, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.
Spell-based attacks which are not simultaneous, such as multiple attacks per round by a 8th-level druid using flame blade, may apply sneak attack damage to each attack so long as each attack qualifies for sneak attack (the target is denied its Dex bonus or the caster is flanking the target).
—Pathfinder Design Team, 06/19/13

If you use all of the shuriken created by this spell upon casting, only one will get sneak attack damage. If you use a Swift Action each turn after the initial cast and only throw one each turn, however, you should be able to get sneak attack on each one.


Loving the guides! Just wanted to give good feedback being thanks for confirming ideas, or giving new ones! :)


Need some rogue love! I've not played a rogue since 2.0 or so.

Back in D&D 2.0 (? I think) there were player handbooks and one of them was for gnomes and halflings. There was a character of halflings that was a Urchin - basically he pretended to be a human child and then baam, sneak attack in the gut. NO sneaking, all about hiding in plain sight instead. I love the concept. I'd like to re-create the concept in pathfinder, and I'd like to keep it PFS legal if I can. I was thinking that a knife master rogue mixed with 3 levels (?) of Mouser swashbuckler could probably pull this off quite well, but am really unsure on how to feat and skill this guy - obviously disguise and bluff and slight of hand will have to be maxed.

I'm not experienced enough with rogues to know how this would work - can you get a sneak attack in the face if they don't suspect you are about to stab them? Bluff/disguise check to get a surprise round sneak attack? Or just a regular feint (works mechanically just loses the "thematic" part I'm going for).

Two weapon rogue works best with the character as far as damage goes, but not thematically - unless you can conceal and quick draw two weapons with a free action? Or I just go single for the first sneak attack, then go mouser and twf from that point on.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

there's a feat that let's you attack from drawing your weapon against a flat footed opponent.

also, on an unrelated note, unchained rogue no longer cares about concealment.

Scarab Sages

Timdog wrote:


I'm not experienced enough with rogues to know how this would work - can you get a sneak attack in the face if they don't suspect you are about to stab them? Bluff/disguise check to get a surprise round sneak attack? Or just a regular feint (works mechanically just loses the "thematic" part I'm going for).

There is no facing in pathfinder, any sneak attack can be in the face. The opponent just needs to be flat-footed, flanked, or denied dex to AC.

You can do that via feinting, or any other method that applies one of those conditions.


The halflings have a feat called "Childlike" that you should look into. It has a prerequisite that I cannot recall at the moment, but it's perfect for what you are wanting to do.


What are the easy /normal ways of getting soneone flatfooted? Seems like a goid rogue 101 thing to know

Scarab Sages

The standard way of getting someone flatfooted is going first. Surprise round, and the first round before the enemy acts, they are flat-footed.

After that is total concealment. Invisibility, stealth, obscuring mist, and so on.

Finally, there are some more obscure methods, like catch off-guard with an improvised weapon against an unarmed opponent.


Shatter Defenses, always a good time.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

by RAW only invisibility gives FF.

there's shatter defenses with a sapper rogue build.


see the last is what I'm trying to do - catch off guard by disguise + concealed weapon. buuuut i'm not seeing that as a normal mechanic so Dm's may have no clue how to deal with it.

Mouser at least gives easy flanking so I have that to fall back on. and I can feint my way to success too I guess. I just thematically really want to pull off the whole "i'm just a little human child, ignore me, bamm, full expeinced rogue stab to the face!"


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

i know there's another feat or rogue talent that does this better, but i found this.


nice! That's great.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

it's written poorly but it basically means when drawing a light weapon in combat, you can feint your opponent and instead use your sleight of hand bonus instead of your bluff bonus. All bonuses to feint apply to this check.


Deft Palm (Ex): A rogue with this talent can make a Sleight of Hand check to conceal a weapon while holding it in plain sight, even while she is being observed.

This would mean, with quick draw, I no longer lose a move action to pull a hidden weapon, right? Since it's no being hidden on my person?

Scarab Sages

Actually, you no longer would need any action to draw it, as it is already in your hand. It's also the only thing that makes the underhanded talent usable.


oooo that's just beautiful for this guy as I plan to have high cha anyway :) It's coming together


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

you'd no longer be drawing the weapon and thus qualifying for sly draw though.


with two weapon fighting, do these feats apply to both?

(referring to deft palm and the underhanded talent)


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

you probably could hide as many weapons as you want, and if they're in your hand, feel free to full round into someone.


Not sure I have enough feats - trying to figure if I go steal or trip or twf or skill focus to support my disguise and slight of hand....

and childlike and pass for human. Oy! Feat starved :)


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

don;t mix TWF and combat maneuvers, feint is an exception due to TWFeint.


Is steal actually ever worth it? i'd have to get agile manovers and then the three steal feats (improved, greater and expertise) so it's a pretty heavy feat load.


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Timdog wrote:
Is steal actually ever worth it? i'd have to get agile manovers and then the three steal feats (improved, greater and expertise) so it's a pretty heavy feat load.

no, most enemies don't even have items, can't steal from a dire bear...


Bandw2 wrote:
Timdog wrote:
Is steal actually ever worth it? i'd have to get agile manovers and then the three steal feats (improved, greater and expertise) so it's a pretty heavy feat load.
no, most enemies don't even have items, can't steal from a dire bear...

Yup! Combat Maneuvers with Dex based characters are best if they can be done with a weapon. That way you don't actually need Agile Maneuvers. Some GMs might allow you to use your weapon with a Steal maneuver while some may not.

Also, I was incorrect on my earlier statement. Pass For Human requires Childlike as a prerequisite, not the other way around! Very cool feats for halflings in my opinion that want to do something like you describe!


This thread has some ideas on how to utilize underhanded:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rzg0?When-he-woke-up-the-fight-was-already#43


It seems like the most reliable way to get sneak attack turned on is via flanking. Being as other members of the party have their own problems it seems like a good idea to bring your own flanking buddy to the table. Also, in order to really guarantee the ability to get your flank on, Pack Flanking seems like a really nice tool to have.

I've seen people discuss how to do this but I haven't seen it all written up in one place so I thought I'd try and bring everything together.

I see a few different ways you can go:

Carnivalist Archetype

Live the dream of being Aladdin and having your own personal Abu. Give your familiar the Valet archetype and he will pick up your teamwork feats, so Pack Flanking is on.

The problem is that familiars are weak and squishy. There's also the awkward point that they have to be at least small size in order to threaten another square, which makes them hard for you to carry, but they also are too small and weak for you to ride.

Here is the complete list of small familiars with strength and associated bonus:

Donkey Rat (6, +2 Fort saves)
Dwarf Caiman (10, +3 stealth)
Koala (6, +3 Climb)
Peacock (7, +3 Intimidate)
Penguin (9, +3 Swim)
Pig (11, +3 Diplomacy)
Seal (10, +3 Swim)
Wallaby (12, +3 Acrobatics)
Dodo (3, +4 Initiative)
Goat (12, +3 Survival)

I guess you could go small, take undersized mount, and fit out your goat familiar with muleback cords. Riding some of these seems like it would take some fast talking with the GM even after you take undersized mount.

The real drawback with the carnivalist though is that your sneak attack dice get cut in half. The idea is that half is going to your animal companion. However, since your animal companion's attacks are going to suck compared to yours I have a hard time seeing it as worth it.

If you could qualify for improved familiar things might get interesting, but I'm pretty sure you can't.

Animal Ally
You can stay a straight up rogue and get an animal companion by taking Nature Soul and Animal Ally. You probably also want Boon Companion to keep the animal companion at your level. Your choice of animal companions is limited but there are some good ones on there (wolf and horse are probably the best mounts, and the badger's rage ability is interesting).

The big issue for me is the feat investment. This almost requires you to be human, since you need the three feats for the fighting animal, and you almost certainly want two weapon fighting and pack flanking (with the pre-requisite combat expertise) as well. Even as a human deploying combat trick you won't get pack flanking online until level 5 (and even that requires retraining). Your animal companion would then be squishy until level 7. You also won't have access to any other feats (Piranha Strike, devotion to Pharasma) until level 9.

This path also requires a 12,000 GP investment in the Horsemaster's saddle if you want to share the pack flanking feat.

You can ease some of the feat crunch by dropping boon companion and having your AC do normal flanking instead of riding them for pack flanking. This is a little less reliable and opens them up to getting squished, but them's the breaks.

Disposable Animals
Ok, this is a little mean. But needs must...

A light, combat trained horse costs 110 GP. In PFS play, the carry companion spell should cost 60 GP (level 2 spells seem to run that much) and transforms the horse into a small statue that you can turn back into a horse with a command word.

So: walk around next to the horse. When you get into combat, order it into flanking position and get as many sneak attacks in as you can. Since it only has 15 HP it's going to die as soon as it gets attacked. When that happens give a brief eulogy, then pull the next statue out of your backpack and use the command word to pop out another horse.

This doesn't cost any feats, but it's not as reliable as the other methods. Note that you can't do Pack Flanking even with the Horsemaster's Saddle since Pack Flanking calls out your "companion creature."

Also, your GM might have an issue with the bag full of horses and your party members might have an issue with the ongoing horse slaughter.

A higher end version of this would involve using a combat trained Woolly Mammoth and a wand of carry companion. At that point you're kind of getting away from the whole rogue thing in favor of the surprise war elephant strategy, but it could be fun.

Dipping
Either one level of Cavalier or three levels of Hunter seem like your best bet. Cavalier is less of a commitment but Hunter lets you pick from a bigger pool of animals and gives Hunter Tactics (whereas Cavalier requires you to buy the fancy saddle).

The advantage here is that you pick up the animal companion along with a free feat or two, instead of spending several feats to get it. You probably will want Boon Companion, though, so on net you're going to be about level feat-wise.

I see two downsides here: one is that the animal is stuck once you have boon companion. With one level of cavalier you're stuck at a 5th level AC and with the three levels of hunter you're stuck at 7. On the other hand 7 is the sweet spot for a lot of AC evolutions and even a fifth level horse shouldn't be getting instagibbed during most of your PFS career. The saves might be a little rough though.

The other big downside is the loss in sneak attack progression and rogue progression generally. You can make it up a bit by going into snakebite striker.

After writing all this down, something like three levels of rogue, then one level of cavalier, one of snakebite striker, then rogue the rest of the way seems pretty good. You stay in line with your sneak attack progression. You lose one rogue talent and delay access to the advanced talents, but you get a reasonably sturdy flanking buddy that is a net neutral on your feat count (Cavalier gives you pack flanking, but you use one feat on boon companion).

Stuff I missed

Any other ideas on bringing your own flanking buddy to the party?

Two other benefits of having animal companions, btw: (1) some of the other teamwork feats are quite nice; (2) always-on flanking makes the traits that give +1 to hit or to damage when flanking pretty sweet.

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