Here's one that my DM and I can't seem to see eye-to-eye on:
Spells that have a duration of 'instantaneous' cannot be dispelled with Dispel Magic. No problem, makes sense that once that fireball goes off, it's gone, you can't dispel it later in the round. But what about counterspelling it? If you don't have fireball memorized can't you use dispel magic to counterspell it as outlined in the rules? Things are a bit fuzzy in the text:
Pg 209
Dispel Magic as a Counterspell: You can usually use dispel
magic to counterspell another spell being cast without
needing to identify the spell being cast. Dispel magic doesn’t
always work as a counterspell (see the spell description).
Pg 273
Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic...The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.
Counterspell: When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell
targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true
counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a
dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell.
Now, I believe that you can counterspell any spell regardless of it's duration with Dispel Magic as long as you make the dispel check. My DM is stuck on the 'can't be defeated by Dispel Magic' bit. I think there are two distinct uses of the Dispel Magic spell here: the main one, usable to dispel an on-going spell effect (such as bull's strength) that had previously been cast, and the secondary one, counterspelling a spell as it is being cast. In the second case, the Dispel Magic spell targets the spellcaster and 'grounds out' their magic as they are casting it, or as a party member put it, it powers the counterspell. I don't see an imbalance to my interpretation, as using Dispel Magic blows a level 5 spell slot, regardless of what the enemy caster is casting (woo hoo, I blocked that cantrip...), and if I blow the dispel check it's all for naught, whereas the regular counterspell is 100% effective and only uses a spell slot of the same (relative) level.
Thoughts?
Counterspell can counter a spell while it is being cast, the spell level of the spell being countered doesn't matter.
It can not be used to counter spell like abilities, or supernatural ones.
Counterspell can counter a spell while it is being cast, the spell level of the spell being countered doesn't matter.
It can not be used to counter spell like abilities, or supernatural ones.
Yes, but the question is whether one can counterspell an instantaneous spell with Dispel Magic, even though it says specifically that they cannot be 'dispeled'. Is a Dispel Magic counterspell 'dispelling' or 'countering'?
Yes, but the question is whether one can counterspell an instantaneous spell with Dispel Magic, even though it says specifically that they cannot be 'dispeled'. Is a Dispel Magic counterspell 'dispelling' or 'countering'?Counterspell can counter a spell while it is being cast, the spell level of the spell being countered doesn't matter.
It can not be used to counter spell like abilities, or supernatural ones.
Using dispel magic to counterspell is still counterspelling. You're just using dispel magic in lieu of the actual spell being cast. You're overthinking this one.
As Lathiira stated counterspelling is counter spelling. It doesn't matter if you use the exact spell, dispel magic or (with the use of improved counterspelling feat) a spell of the same school of magic you still counter the spell -- a spell that is countered doesn't take effect therefore its duration is meaningless.
You can't dispel an instantaneous spell effect but you can counter it.
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Dispel magic also has a duration of instantaneous. How our DnD group has always treated it was that you could ready an action to cast dispel magic on whatever magic the other caster is going to cast.
That way, you're essentially casting at the exact same time, so if you cast dispel magic at the same time as that fireball, even if its duration is instantaneous, well so is yours. Which would be counterspelling.
I believe what the rules are trying to say about instantaneous spell effects is that say the wizard goes and casts fireball, and does its damage, and then it's your turn, you cannot cast dispel magic on it. Even though it's in the same round, because it's an instantaneous effect.
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Counterspell can counter a spell while it is being cast, the spell level of the spell being countered doesn't matter.
It can not be used to counter spell like abilities, or supernatural ones.
Whether you can counterspell spell-like abilities is still stuck in errata. One place in the rule book says you can, another place says you cannot.
Back to the original question. Short answer is yes.
1. You ready an action to counterspell.
2. Enemy starts casting, you make a spellcraft check.
3a. If you make the spellcraft check and you have the appropiate spell, you can use it to counterspell.
3b. If you make the spellcraft check, but don't have the appropiate spell, then you may use dispel magic to counterspell.
3c. If you fail the spellcraft check, then you may use dispel magic to counterspell.
If you use a specific spell to counterspell, it automatically succeeds.
If you use dispel magic to counterspell, you have to beat the caster with a caster level check.
Note that there are essentially two ways to counterspell.
The easy way is casting your counterspell at any time. For example, you just happen to be walking along and find an area of Darkness. You could cast Daylight to counterspell the Darkness. Or you could cast Dispel Magic to counterspell the Darkness. In both cases, it can be said that you are "counterspelling' and it can be said that you are "dispelling" the Darkness - both terms are correct.
Obviously, this won't work on instant spells because those don't stick around long enough for you to wander by and counterspell them at a later time. Once that instant spell is cast, it's already done; it's too late for you to do anything about it, even if your turn in the initiative order is immediately after the guy who just cast the instant spell.
The hard way is to plan ahead, ready an action for a spellcaster to begin casting a spell, then when he does, you interrupt him by cating the same spell as a counterspell, or by casting Dispel Magic as a counterspell. This is harder because you have to be there at the right time and right place, plan ahead, and ready an action.
This way works on everything. Counterspelling as a readied interrupt doesn't care what the spell is, or its casting time, or its duration - as long as you have the readied action and cast the appropriate spell or cast Dispel Magic, then you can attempt to counterspell anything your opponent is casting. Note that you must still make the caster level check to be successful.
Note that there are essentially two ways to counterspell.
The easy way is casting your counterspell at any time. For example, you just happen to be walking along and find an area of Darkness. You could cast Daylight to counterspell the Darkness. Or you could cast Dispel Magic to counterspell the Darkness. In both cases, it can be said that you are "counterspelling' and it can be said that you are "dispelling" the Darkness - both terms are correct.
Obviously, this won't work on instant spells because those don't stick around long enough for you to wander by and counterspell them at a later time. Once that instant spell is cast, it's already done; it's too late for you to do anything about it, even if your turn in the initiative order is immediately after the guy who just cast the instant spell.
The hard way is to plan ahead, ready an action for a spellcaster to begin casting a spell, then when he does, you interrupt him by cating the same spell as a counterspell, or by casting Dispel Magic as a counterspell. This is harder because you have to be there at the right time and right place, plan ahead, and ready an action.
This way works on everything. Counterspelling as a readied interrupt doesn't care what the spell is, or its casting time, or its duration - as long as you have the readied action and cast the appropriate spell or cast Dispel Magic, then you can attempt to counterspell anything your opponent is casting. Note that you must still make the caster level check to be successful.
Not trying to nitpick here, but I think your use of the term "counterspelling" is going to muddy things up a bit.
Counterspelling is the action of negating a spell as it is being cast.
Dispelling is the action of negating a spell effect from an already cast spell.
The two actions have very distinct differences when dealing with the mechanics of the game.
In your example of walking by a Darkness spell effect, it cannot be counterspelled because it is already in effect and has thus already been cast. You can dispel the darkness effect with a Dispel Magic spell by targeting the effect itself (or in the case of Greater Dispel Magic by catching the darkness effect in the area of an area dispell magic). And in the specific case of a Darkness spell effect, you can dispel it with certain light-based spells, such as Daylight. (Doing this would work the same way as casting Dispel Magic to do a targetted dispel, except that there would be no caster level check...you would simply cast Daylight and it would dispel the darkness effect, terminating both the effects of the Darkness and the Daylight spells.)
If you are around when someone is trying to cast a Darkness spell, you can attempt to counterspell the Darkness spell as it is being cast (but not dispel its effect, since it hasn't come into effect yet). In order to do this you must have an action readied to counterspell the caster when he tries to cast a spell. If you have such an action readied, and the target of your readied action attempts to cast a spell, you can attempt to identify the spell as it is being cast. If you do identify the spell, you can then cast the same spell to counterspell it (and in the case of some specific spells you can use certain other specific spells to counterspell, such as using Daylight to counterspell Darkness, or Haste to counterspell Slow.) You can also try to use Dispel Magic to counterspell a spell as it is being cast, whether or not you succeed at identifying the spell being cast; however, you must succeed at a caster level check against the spellcaster in order to counterspell his spell with Dispel Magic. (The Improved Counterspell feat allows one to counterspell a spell as it is being cast by casting a different spell from the same school that is at least one level higher, but its not necessary to delve into that here.)
So, to keep things simple, if one is trying to negate a spell as it is being cast, then he is counterspelling and must use the mechanics for that. And if one is trying to negate a spell effect that is in place from an already cast spell, then he is trying to dispel the spell effect and must use those mechanics.
Thanks everyone, you all seem to be basically in agreement with me - I just hope my DM will agree ;)
One clarification though - according to the rules there is no need for a caster to make a spellcraft check to identify the spell being cast if they are using Dispel Magic:
Pg 208
Dispel Magic as a Counterspell: You can usually use dispel
magic to counterspell another spell being cast without
needing to identify the spell being cast.
However, it would likely be a good idea to do so so that you don't end up blowing your Dispel Magic on a silly little cantrip.
One clarification though - according to the rules there is no need for a caster to make a spellcraft check to identify the spell being cast if they are using Dispel Magic:
If you look carefully at Charender's step-by-step, that's taken into account.
If you look carefully at Charender's step-by-step, that's taken into account.
It is, and perhaps I'm being picky, but in the name of clarity I thought it important to point out that Step 2 is not necessary - absolutely advisable, but not absolutely necessary.
If you look carefully at Charender's step-by-step, that's taken into account.It is, and perhaps I'm being picky, but in the name of clarity I thought it important to point out that Step 2 is not necessary - absolutely advisable, but not absolutely necessary.
Ok, so change step 2 to make a spellcraft check if possible.
I have never seen anyone who was not trained in spellcraft try to counterspell. In theory you could have a rogue counterspelling via use magic device and a wand of dispel magic, but that has never happened in any game I have been a part of.
...I have never seen anyone who was not trained in spellcraft try to counterspell. In theory you could have a rogue counterspelling via use magic device and a wand of dispel magic, but that has never happened in any game I have been a part of.
My Warlock in a 3.5 game did not care about Spellcraft for RP reasons for a long time (he didn't need no damn magic training/learning, he WAS Magic!).
He regularly would use the base dispel invocation as a counterspell function. He would simply ready an action to cast dispel if the enemy caster types did anything besides just movement or melee. With being able to effectively dispell at will it would drive the GM nuts somethimes.
Damn double post. Please delete if possible.
...I have never seen anyone who was not trained in spellcraft try to counterspell. In theory you could have a rogue counterspelling via use magic device and a wand of dispel magic, but that has never happened in any game I have been a part of.My Warlock in a 3.5 game did not care about Spellcraft for RP reasons for a long time (he didn't need no damn magic training/learning, he WAS Magic!).
He regularly would use the base dispel invocation as a counterspell function. He would simply ready an action to cast dispel if the enemy caster types did anything besides just movement or melee. With being able to effectively dispell at will it would drive the GM nuts somethimes.
Your guy was better off eldritch blasting the spellcaster with his prepared action whenever a spell was cast. That way you damage them AND force a check to lose their spell.
Preparing an action for counterspelling as written (in 3.5 OR Pathfinder) is NEVER worth doing.
Well, if the enemy caster has mirror image, blur and globe of invulnerability up and you're out of blast spells then dispelling might be a good idea :P
So maybe "NEVER" wasn't the best choice of word to be using... :P
...I have never seen anyone who was not trained in spellcraft try to counterspell. In theory you could have a rogue counterspelling via use magic device and a wand of dispel magic, but that has never happened in any game I have been a part of.My Warlock in a 3.5 game did not care about Spellcraft for RP reasons for a long time (he didn't need no damn magic training/learning, he WAS Magic!).
He regularly would use the base dispel invocation as a counterspell function. He would simply ready an action to cast dispel if the enemy caster types did anything besides just movement or melee. With being able to effectively dispell at will it would drive the GM nuts somethimes.
Like I said, I have never seen it in any of my games. It is possible, but very rare.
Thanks everyone, you all seem to be basically in agreement with me - I just hope my DM will agree ;)
One clarification though - according to the rules there is no need for a caster to make a spellcraft check to identify the spell being cast if they are using Dispel Magic:
Pg 208
Dispel Magic as a Counterspell: You can usually use dispel
magic to counterspell another spell being cast without
needing to identify the spell being cast.However, it would likely be a good idea to do so so that you don't end up blowing your Dispel Magic on a silly little cantrip.
Speaking as your DM, yes, I agree. We'll use Dispel Magic this way going forward. Thanks, everyone!
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I've been over this subject in the past to no avail...there are actually TWO entries regarding Spell-like Abiltiies/Spells and Counterspelling in the main book that conflict directly with one another, with one being a hold-over from 3.5 and the other seems to be an intentional change.
Entry mentioned on Page 221 of the Core Pathfinder Rulebook.Spellike Abilities (Sp)
Usually a spellike ability works just like the spell of that name. A spelllike ability has no verbal, somantic or material components, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spellike ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somantic component.
A spellike ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless otherwise noted in the ability or the spells description. In all other ways, the spellike ability functions just like a spell.
Spellike abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do no function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spellike abilities cannot be used to counterspell or can they be counterspelled.
Some creatures actually cast arcane spells as sorcerors do, using components when required. Some creatures have both spellike abilities and actual spellcasting power.
NOW EVEN MORE CONFUSING... (And is found on the SRD as well)
Entry found for Spellike Abilities (Sp) on Page 554 of the Core Pathfinder Rulebook.
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled and counterspelled as normal[.
Now I am officially confused, two entries contradict one another in Pathfinders main rulebook...theres a problem right there.
Which is the right one?, there has been no official response yet but the SRD supports the second (Spell-like Abilities can be Counterspelled) entry.
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Speaking as your DM, yes, I agree. We'll use Dispel Magic this way going forward. Thanks, everyone!
WooHoo! I did not know if you had seen this thread, hopefully we'll get back to our game before too long!
This may be a silly question, but what do you roll against when using dispel magic as a counterspell?
I know you roll 1d20 + caster level, but what is the DC?
Is it DC 11 + spell's caster level? This is used to dispel the highest level spell already cast on a creature or object, but this is for a spell already in place.
Is it the DC of the spell? This is used to dispel a specific spell that you can identify and name, but again, this is for a spell already in place.
Or does it depend on whether or not you can identify the spell being cast? If you can, it is the DC of the spell, but if you cannot, it is DC 11 + spell's caster level?
I am browsing the forums looking for the exact same answer....
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This may be a silly question, but what do you roll against when using dispel magic as a counterspell?
I know you roll 1d20 + caster level, but what is the DC?
Is it DC 11 + spell's caster level? This is used to dispel the highest level spell already cast on a creature or object, but this is for a spell already in place.
Is it the DC of the spell? This is used to dispel a specific spell that you can identify and name, but again, this is for a spell already in place.
Or does it depend on whether or not you can identify the spell being cast? If you can, it is the DC of the spell, but if you cannot, it is DC 11 + spell's caster level?
"..you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster's spell." edit: I see your point: different dispel checks have different DCs. I think you're specifically trying to end one spell, so you check against the DC of the spell. That is presumably its save DC (or the save DC it would have if it allowed a save) since DC 11 + caster level wouldn't be specific to that spell.
To counter with dispel magic (presumed readied) you have two options:
1. If you do not know/recognize the spell (via spellcraft), you make a dispel check as usual against the spell's caster. So this check would be 11+spell's caster's caster level. Example: 10th level wizard casts fireball, then the DC is 11+10=21. If your own caster level is 5, you have to roll a 16 to successfully counter it.
2. If you do recognize the spell you can try to go for the (theoretical) DC of the spell (10+spell level+casting attribute bonus). Assuming abovementioned wizard has an intelligence of 18 when casting fireball, it would be 10+3+4=17 - much easier to beat than the 21. But since you rarely will know the casting attribute bonus, this is a gamble.
Note that if you know the spell being cast, you can counter much more easily with it. Also, dealing damage to force a concentration check may be a viable option.
To counter with dispel magic (presumed readied) you have two options:
1. If you do not know/recognize the spell (via spellcraft), you make a dispel check as usual against the spell's caster. So this check would be 11+spell's caster's caster level. Example: 10th level wizard casts fireball, then the DC is 11+10=21. If your own caster level is 5, you have to roll a 16 to successfully counter it.
2. If you do recognize the spell you can try to go for the (theoretical) DC of the spell (10+spell level+casting attribute bonus). Assuming abovementioned wizard has an intelligence of 18 when casting fireball, it would be 10+3+4=17 - much easier to beat than the 21. But since you rarely will know the casting attribute bonus, this is a gamble.Note that if you know the spell being cast, you can counter much more easily with it. Also, dealing damage to force a concentration check may be a viable option.
Sorry, just rechecked, remove option #2: Seems to be available only for target/area dispelling, not counterspelling.