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15-Point-Buy. Be reasonable.


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

651 to 678 of 678 << first < prev | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | next > last >>

Chris Mortika wrote:

Min2007, I think you're running up against an issue other than point-buy budgets. If 20 points gets you the character you want to play, given that it includes 'simply fun' characters with strong 'secondary focus' stats, then the same points can be used by someone who is good at building efficient characters, who isn't interested in characters with 'secondary focus' aspects, to generate as powerful a character as he can.

I see what you're saying. But I see no way to truly fix 'that' issue other than forcing people to Roll their stats.

I am also not good with numbers. Maybe a math ninja can look at your variant point buy to see if it would help?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Chris Mortika wrote:
Then the monk will need a higher point-buy budget than the rogue, yes?

You misunderstand me, the monk depends more on their ability scores for their AC, for example. If both have improved scores, the monk benefits more.

For example, compare a monk with 14 dex and wis to a rogue with 14 dex and int. Both have the same AC, 14, if the rogue has leather armour. Now if they both have a 16, the monk is 1 point better as the rogue has 15 to the monk's 16.


Cold Napalm wrote:

1)16 IS a high stat. Getting a 16 and some 14s and 12s with NO negatives is pretty much yeah I'm good at everything. Okay so the good at everything is an exaggeration...but it's the whole lots of +s on stats...no weaknesses that I dislike.

3) Once again...16 IS a high stat.

Yep, a 16 is a high stat. That's what I said... I don't think we are disagreeing on that.

I prefer my players having the ability to do more than just be great at one thing, but I want them to still be great at that one thing. Hence why I want higher point buy or rolled stats that allow for at least one really good stat, and then a decent spread of stats after that.

As you say, you prefer that players have weaknesses. At this point, we are talking about a matter of taste.

And honestly.. having a negative on one stat is usually fine too. However, 15 pb is hard to get the other requirements I'm asking (multiple fairly high stats... the multiple is the key factor here).

Cold Napalm wrote:
2) If you don't like DCP's stats, how about my rogue 15 point stat array? I have high primary stats for that. And the rogue is a better fit for the concept then a fighter anyways. The idea that you should have high enough stats so you can hammer any class into any role you want doesn't quite fly with me. Pick the closest class to what you want and you can go from there on 15 points JUST fine.

It wasn't about a Fighter trying to perform a Rogue's job. I'm talking about a character being good at multiple roles. Focus on melee, but being viable in ranged combat, and still having a viability outside of combat.

I don't want the players to have to give up "excelling" at their primary focus to be viable at everything else.
With 15 pb, I'm seeing a lot of 13-14s to cover all the bases. I want the player to be able to have that 16 still is all I'm saying, and it takes a few extra points to do that. That's all.

Cold Napalm wrote:
4) See my post above. 3.x did not allow you to lower stats to get points back. If your DM allowed that, it was a houserule. The trade off for being able to recoup point is a higher cost to raise then at 14+.

Regardless, pathfinder races have an extra +2 anyways. I've already conceded this point before you posted, just need to read my follow up post.

Cold Napalm wrote:
5) The crux of the arguments is that some people insist that 15 point buy is unplayable...not that they don't enjoy it, but you CAN'T play with that value. And on a lesser scale, there is the issue of if 20 should be the default value over 15. I still like 15 just fine, but PFS games have moved to 20, there maybe some traction to having 20 be the new default.

I think it's you who says we are saying it's unplayable. Please don't take our saying "*I* want to play with more points" as meaning "15 pb is unplayable".

I've only see people say in this thread that 15 point buy is still playable, just doesn't allow for what they wanted.

Cold Napalm wrote:
6) The idea that they should excelling at their secondary and teriarty roles is once again the whole I must be good at everything with no weaknesses that I keep harping about. You can be good at those...your just gonna need a couple of 7s or 8s with 15 point buy instead of having at least 10 in all stats.

As a DM, I don't concern myself over whether or not a player has a weakness compared to the average person. Players are rarely (if ever) playing alongside the average person.

What I concern myself over is whether or not a player is doing better at a second or third role compared to another player's similar primary role.

20 or even 25 point buy doesn't cause this, and makes things easier on the player.

Cold Napalm wrote:
7) YOU can have fun howevere you like. When you say that 15 is unplayable for YOU...or unfun for YOU, then fine. But to change the standard for YOU is a bit much. There should be a mechanical reason for the change. And once again with PFS games changed to 20, there could be some pretty dang good reason other then well I'm gonna take those 5 points and I promise I won't use they to make my character any better, and I'll just use it for role playing fluff. Because you know what?...some people won't follow that unless there is a rule in place to prevent it.

Errr... what? Who is asking for anything to be changed?

Remember the whole point of this thread... someone comes and says "Why play anything higher than 15 point buy! It's just more work for the DM!"

We gave our responses for why we play with more than 15 point buy, and it's not just to get more "pluses".

The question was asked, and we answered. You don't have to keep making this out to be more than it is.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

For the record, on one small point, I think the "unplayable" that keeps getting repeated comes from this post at the beginning of the thread:

Lazurin Arborlon wrote:
Gimped unplayable characters are not fun...sorry.

Now, that doesn't excuse assuming someone said something they didn't (and that goes for everyone, including myself). But to be fair, the "unplayable" sentiment was explicitly shared, and I don't think Lazurin was the only one who shared it either.


I just wanted to point out that looking at literary characters as proof that low point buy is good is flawed, as D&D characters do not have the plot armor that literary characters do. LotR makes an especially bad example, as has been shown in a pretty funny webcomic.


ProfessorCirno wrote:
I just wanted to point out that looking at literary characters as proof that low point buy is good is flawed, as D&D characters do not have the plot armor that literary characters do. LotR makes an especially bad example, as has been shown in a pretty funny webcomic.

Webcomic? Hell ... have you seen what "How it Should Have Ended" did with the thing?

Talk about turning it on it's head and making it a *footnote* of a story in D&D style.

:-D

Grand Lodge

Rogue Eidolon wrote:


This led me to an idea--what if you used 15 point buy (no 7s allowed) and then rolled 5d6. For every 1, put another point in Strength, for every 2, in Dex, etc. If you have any points assigned at the end of this that don't do anything, remove them all and try again,...

You know...I kinda like this idea. Gives a bit of randomness to you stats...but mostly point buy. I do agree that the 7s become an issue...but instead of removing them, I think they should stay as a trap. Having not enough points to raise a stat by a point gets removed from all stats EXCEPT 7s. Any point that land on a 7 stat stays there until you roll it again with remaining dice. If you use up all the dice rolls, then it just stays there and does nothing. Means 7s can be still used...but you can't use them to try and skew odds to boost your main stats. Also makes using 7s a bit more risky as you may end up losing 2 of those 5 random points.

Grand Lodge

Min2007 wrote:

How on earth do you justify calling not being able to make weird combos (like my gnomish fop specializing in whirlwind fighting) the same thing as saying all 15 point buy is unplayable??? Apologize please.

I will admit my fix is a house rule. But it's a good house rule. And you have to admit it does allow for a much easier time building characters.

So your argument is either that 15 point buy isn't viable because you can't do wierd things or it is because it only marginalizes the wierd. I got the feeling you were chiming for the former and not the latter. If I got the wrong impression, sorry...these things happen over the net.

And yes your houserule does simplify character building...but that isn't always a GOOD thing. For those who are not good optimizers, this may open doors and ideas and everything plays well...for the optimizers, this opens a pandora's box of pain for the DM. I can just see high strength high charism paladins TWFing with smite. Since feats have no stat req, I can get TWF, ITWF and hell GTWF since I am adding charisma AND strength to my full BAB to hit...that -15 can still hit often enough...and the + paladin level to damage sure makes it worth the try. And all that with my 8 dex, 7 wis and 7 int. Starting str of 18, con 16, charisma 16. strength at high levels becomes 32ish, charisma is 30ish. That is to hit of 20(bab)+11(strength)+10(charisma) for 41...before buffs and magic weapon. With bonded magic weapon that is gonna be +46 with your +5 weapon. -2 for TWF for 44. With haste or weapon of speed, that is 44/44/44/39/39/34/34/29. Actually 1 higher with haste. And possibly even higher with other buffs. And this isn't even trying very hard. For you and your players, that houserule maybe fine...but for the general game rules, no, those reqs need to stay there to prevent things like what I just said from happening.

Grand Lodge

Kaisoku wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:

1)16 IS a high stat. Getting a 16 and some 14s and 12s with NO negatives is pretty much yeah I'm good at everything. Okay so the good at everything is an exaggeration...but it's the whole lots of +s on stats...no weaknesses that I dislike.

3) Once again...16 IS a high stat.

Yep, a 16 is a high stat. That's what I said... I don't think we are disagreeing on that.

I prefer my players having the ability to do more than just be great at one thing, but I want them to still be great at that one thing. Hence why I want higher point buy or rolled stats that allow for at least one really good stat, and then a decent spread of stats after that.

As you say, you prefer that players have weaknesses. At this point, we are talking about a matter of taste.

And honestly.. having a negative on one stat is usually fine too. However, 15 pb is hard to get the other requirements I'm asking (multiple fairly high stats... the multiple is the key factor here).

So your saying a 16 and 3 14s do not meet with your defination of having multiple high stats? How about 2 16s a 14 and a 12? I think that is a reasonable amount of multiple high stats...and can be done with 15 point buy just fine.

Kaisoku wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
2) If you don't like DCP's stats, how about my rogue 15 point stat array? I have high primary stats for that. And the rogue is a better fit for the concept then a fighter anyways. The idea that you should have high enough stats so you can hammer any class into any role you want doesn't quite fly with me. Pick the closest class to what you want and you can go from there on 15 points JUST fine.
It wasn't about a Fighter trying to perform a Rogue's job. I'm talking about a character being good at multiple roles. Focus on melee, but being viable in ranged combat, and still having a viability outside of combat.

And the rogue is more viable for the style of fighting that was mentioned using the race chosen then a fighter. And it fits the character's decription better as well. And fill more of the outside combat roles that such a character is likely to want to do better. A rogue does NOT have to be a sneak/trap finder. The class is a group of mechanics and that mechanic fits a whirling gnomish fop better then the fighter.


Cold Napalm wrote:
Rogue Eidolon wrote:


This led me to an idea--what if you used 15 point buy (no 7s allowed) and then rolled 5d6. For every 1, put another point in Strength, for every 2, in Dex, etc. If you have any points assigned at the end of this that don't do anything, remove them all and try again,...
You know...I kinda like this idea. Gives a bit of randomness to you stats...but mostly point buy. I do agree that the 7s become an issue...but instead of removing them, I think they should stay as a trap. Having not enough points to raise a stat by a point gets removed from all stats EXCEPT 7s. Any point that land on a 7 stat stays there until you roll it again with remaining dice. If you use up all the dice rolls, then it just stays there and does nothing. Means 7s can be still used...but you can't use them to try and skew odds to boost your main stats. Also makes using 7s a bit more risky as you may end up losing 2 of those 5 random points.

That's an excellent idea for how to deal with the 7s, actually. I like it.


Cold Napalm wrote:
Min2007 wrote:

How on earth do you justify calling not being able to make weird combos (like my gnomish fop specializing in whirlwind fighting) the same thing as saying all 15 point buy is unplayable??? Apologize please.

I will admit my fix is a house rule. But it's a good house rule. And you have to admit it does allow for a much easier time building characters.

So your argument is either that 15 point buy isn't viable because you can't do wierd things or it is because it only marginalizes the wierd. I got the feeling you were chiming for the former and not the latter. If I got the wrong impression, sorry...these things happen over the net.

And yes your houserule does simplify character building...but that isn't always a GOOD thing. For those who are not good optimizers, this may open doors and ideas and everything plays well...for the optimizers, this opens a pandora's box of pain for the DM. I can just see high strength high charism paladins TWFing with smite. Since feats have no stat req, I can get TWF, ITWF and hell GTWF since I am adding charisma AND strength to my full BAB to hit...that -15 can still hit often enough...and the + paladin level to damage sure makes it worth the try. And all that with my 8 dex, 7 wis and 7 int. Starting str of 18, con 16, charisma 16. strength at high levels becomes 32ish, charisma is 30ish. That is to hit of 20(bab)+11(strength)+10(charisma) for 41...before buffs and magic weapon. With bonded magic weapon that is gonna be +46 with your +5 weapon. -2 for TWF for 44. With haste or weapon of speed, that is 44/44/44/39/39/34/34/29. Actually 1 higher with haste. And possibly even higher with other buffs. And this isn't even trying very hard. For you and your players, that houserule maybe fine...but for the general game rules, no, those reqs need to stay there to prevent things like what I just said from happening.

Sigh... this is the kind of post I should have received pages ago. I now understand why you don't like my house rule. And I guess you have a valid point. I mean this sort of thing has happened to me before when running a 3.5e game. I had these amazing charts for gender and cultural traits. They were intended to help some of my less imaginative players roleplay. But I made the mistake of attaching a small +1 bonus to a stat for each trait chosen (max 2). I mean it did work. I had one of the optimizers at my table select (boy crazy, +1 cha) from the female gender table and (aristocratic dandy, +1 cha) from the cultural background table. He then chose a fey elf (+2 cha, -2 con) sorceress. He ended up with an amazing 22 cha. 'Her' spells were amazing. But 'she'

didn't outshine everyone. After all with her low con and horrible luck at rolling 'she' still had single digit HPs at 6th level. I remember him giving up on the character around 12th level to play something even more optimized. But it was absolutely fun watching this guy trying to role play an appearance obsessed female elf who went nuts every time a boy smiled at her. And with a 22 cha I had a lot of boy NPCs chasing her around... Just to rub it in... er... just to 'encourage' role play. ;)


Cold Napalm wrote:
So your saying a 16 and 3 14s do not meet with your defination of having multiple high stats? How about 2 16s a 14 and a 12? I think that is a reasonable amount of multiple high stats...and can be done with 15 point buy just fine.

It's the 7s and 8s that you need to pull that off that invalidate it for me.

Remember, I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying I like my players not having such large weaknesses in order to excel.
I want them to be the top 99th percentile of humanity, etc.

I'm saying that this is the reason 15 point buy won't work for me. Not because they need to start with a 20, but because having too many weaknesses will detract from the feel of the game I'm going for.

I know a game can be run with grittier feel. I know epic can be done from the smaller scale (Sam vs Shelob was very epic).
When I want that, I play a game focused on that (probably E6, and likely low stats, 15 pb, etc).
Call of Cthulu with standard array for example, or even just 10s/11s, because horror just works better when you feel more vulnerable.

When I'm playing High Fantasy (such as my current campaign, where the players are expected to level to 20 and epic levels in less than a year campaign time, and fight final fantasy-esque bosses), I want them to be the cream of the crop.
That is the feel I'm going for, and that's why 15 point buy won't cut it.

Can we agree that it's at least a matter of taste (ie, no one is "wrong" in this aspect?).

Cold Napalm wrote:
And the rogue is more viable for the style of fighting that was mentioned using the race chosen then a fighter.

Perhaps you were thinking of another build requested? I know a lot of have been tossed around lately.

I was talking about the Fighter-Knight who was really good at melee, but didn't have to sacrifice that much in ranged combat (dex) and had good social skills (Int and Cha).

A rogue doesn't get full BAB, and suffers from wearing full armor. He also doesn't get enough feats for what the character wants to do. And he comes burdened with extras that he won't use.. like trapfinding bonuses, sneak attack (not very honorable for this concept), and talents that, while a couple choices might be okay (weapon focus and a feat), most are dishonorable or "dexy" type things that don't really fit the concept.

Please don't bother to try and offer an example of 15 point buy "working" for that. I've already given my reasons above why I don't want weaknesses, or low primary stats (a matter of taste in campaign feel).
It was an example of how higher point buy might be used and not be just about a super high stat, not a request to prove how 15 point buy "can do it too".


DeathQuaker wrote:

For the record, on one small point, I think the "unplayable" that keeps getting repeated comes from this post at the beginning of the thread:

Lazurin Arborlon wrote:
Gimped unplayable characters are not fun...sorry.
Now, that doesn't excuse assuming someone said something they didn't (and that goes for everyone, including myself). But to be fair, the "unplayable" sentiment was explicitly shared, and I don't think Lazurin was the only one who shared it either.

Ah, I missed that post. This thread was in it's third page by the time I started posting, so I was playing catchup. I didn't realize that this sentiment had been aired.


Something else to note...

When I started running a published campaign setting at the beginning of this year, I had only 3 players.

When the players don't even cover the four cornerstones (combat, skills, healing and spell utility), you run into the reverse of what Evil Lincoln's post was about: I'd have the headache of powering down each written encounter to make sure the party wasn't being unduly overwhelmed.

The economy of actions is bad enough, but it helped that the players were able to be great at more than one role, because they were down a person compared to the expected CRs.

So there's another "legitimate" reason for using a higher point buy: when you have a smaller than normal group of players.

.

For example, if I ran a game for only two players, I'd probably run gestalt with a very high point buy (or rolling method that guaranteed some really good stats).
That way they can cope with dealing with two primary game roles.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Evil Lincoln wrote:


I've been trying to use a 15 point buy in all my new games, and I still get push back from the players.

I just don't get it. All high scores accomplish is more paperwork for the GM and/or ruining the experience for all involved.

Actually, I've done the stats and the average character rolled on 4d6 drop the lowest is worth just under 20 points in the point buy system.

Sadly, random stats are rarely average, and you will always have a 'best' and 'worst' character pointswise.
One solution I've heard (if your players are mature enough) is to let them choose their stats. Give it a go, you may be pleasantly surprised.
:-D avid

Grand Lodge

Kaisoku wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:
So your saying a 16 and 3 14s do not meet with your defination of having multiple high stats? How about 2 16s a 14 and a 12? I think that is a reasonable amount of multiple high stats...and can be done with 15 point buy just fine.

It's the 7s and 8s that you need to pull that off that invalidate it for me.

Remember, I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying I like my players not having such large weaknesses in order to excel.
I want them to be the top 99th percentile of humanity, etc.

I'm saying that this is the reason 15 point buy won't work for me. Not because they need to start with a 20, but because having too many weaknesses will detract from the feel of the game I'm going for.

I know a game can be run with grittier feel. I know epic can be done from the smaller scale (Sam vs Shelob was very epic).
When I want that, I play a game focused on that (probably E6, and likely low stats, 15 pb, etc).
Call of Cthulu with standard array for example, or even just 10s/11s, because horror just works better when you feel more vulnerable.

When I'm playing High Fantasy (such as my current campaign, where the players are expected to level to 20 and epic levels in less than a year campaign time, and fight final fantasy-esque bosses), I want them to be the cream of the crop.
That is the feel I'm going for, and that's why 15 point buy won't cut it.

Can we agree that it's at least a matter of taste (ie, no one is "wrong" in this aspect?).

Cold Napalm wrote:
And the rogue is more viable for the style of fighting that was mentioned using the race chosen then a fighter.

Perhaps you were thinking of another build requested? I know a lot of have been tossed around lately.

I was talking about the Fighter-Knight who was really good at melee, but didn't have to sacrifice that much in ranged combat (dex) and had good social skills (Int and Cha).

1) The issue wasn't what kind of game style do you prefer since there is NO disagreement that you can play with whatever pointbuy you like. The issue was why people have so much issue using the default value and a side argument about if 20 should be the default instead of 15.

2) The rogue was for the gnomish fop.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The conclusion (to me at least) seems to be that:

1) 15 point buy need not mean low powered.

2) 20 point buy is actually nearer the default than 15.

3) Higher point buy is preferred not because of power but versatility.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Dabbler wrote:

The conclusion (to me at least) seems to be that:

1) 15 point buy need not mean low powered.

2) 20 point buy is actually nearer the default than 15.

3) Higher point buy is preferred not because of power but versatility.

If I might ammend your point 3...

3) One argument for Higher point buy is to increase versatility. Another is for higher general attributes.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I ran rise of the runelords through with 5 PC's using 15 point buy.

I am now running CoT, this time with 6 pcs and again with 15 point buy.

I have to 'up' some encounters to reflect the extra characters but the players are all more than happy with their characters. Horses for courses I guess.


Man, I go on vacation for nearly a week and this thread is still going?

There's some really good advice here for new GMs, to ensure they assign the correct abilities/CRs in their game before things get out of hand and they have to learn the hard way.

Thanks for your input everybody.

I know for my next campaign, I'm considering some things I never would have before reading your thoughts.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The Otyugh wrote:
Horses for courses I guess.

+1.

Grand Lodge

Evil Lincoln wrote:

Man, I go on vacation for nearly a week and this thread is still going?

There's some really good advice here for new GMs, to ensure they assign the correct abilities/CRs in their game before things get out of hand and they have to learn the hard way.

Thanks for your input everybody.

I know for my next campaign, I'm considering some things I never would have before reading your thoughts.

Hehe yep...next game I run, I'm doing RE's 5 random points via 5d6 method...with my 7 ruling of course. I'd change the wording to be, if the points are not enough to raise the stats and the stat has a postive modifer, remove all points and roll again. That way a point is 7 stays. 8 and 9 always goes up if rolled.


Cold Napalm wrote:
Evil Lincoln wrote:

Man, I go on vacation for nearly a week and this thread is still going?

There's some really good advice here for new GMs, to ensure they assign the correct abilities/CRs in their game before things get out of hand and they have to learn the hard way.

Thanks for your input everybody.

I know for my next campaign, I'm considering some things I never would have before reading your thoughts.

Hehe yep...next game I run, I'm doing RE's 5 random points via 5d6 method...with my 7 ruling of course. I'd change the wording to be, if the points are not enough to raise the stats and the stat has a postive modifer, remove all points and roll again. That way a point is 7 stays. 8 and 9 always goes up if rolled.

I am really happy to hear that my idea was cool enough for you to try out (and your adjustment rocks). Please let me know how it turns out!


0gre wrote:

I suspect Evil's original point is long lost here.

I think the point he was making is the game is just as fun with a 15-20 point buy, characters are every bit as heroic. It's just a bit easier on the GM planning encounters and using pre-generated adventures.

Ultimately it's not a "my game is better than your game" sort of thing,
everyone can and should play the game they enjoy most.

There are some good counter points. Namely:

  • Higher point buys allow more options for roll playing development - you are not forced to optimize to be effective.
  • Lower point buys strongly favor classes that have a single prime requisite.
  • +1

    Liberty's Edge

    As a minor aside I use a 20 point buy though my house rules state that each stat starts at 10 then each character has 20 points to purchase stats on a 1:1 then add racial modifiers. My friends tend to enjoy it and it gives them a fair amount of wiggle room that they don't seem to mind.

    Just thought I'd share :o)

    Also, not sure if this would be the place to post it or not...

    I started a Chronicle in a Home brewed World with the Pathfinder Deities, Races, etc. I also went back and redone the Spell Points from Unearthed Arcana as well as Class Defense Bonuses and my friends really enjoy it. So I guess I done something right for them :o)

    Happy Gaming!


    Don't forgett, the player characters are "Heros"!

    For a "heroic" Barbar/Fighter (e.g. Conan or Caramon) Str 18 should be ok. (Or can you imagine Dragonlance with a Str 14 Caramon?)

    The player characters aren't commoners they are gifted by birth, that's why they called heros.


    Pathfinder Cards Subscriber
    Evil Lincoln wrote:

    I've just read several threads where people are dealing with players with astronomical Ability scores.

    I've been trying to use a 15 point buy in all my new games, and I still get push back from the players.

    I just don't get it. All high scores accomplish is more paperwork for the GM and/or ruining the experience for all involved.

    So to all you players out there, I beg you, take the 15 points. Your GM can then build encounters super-easily, and you'll get to play more! Anyone can make a "powerful" character by writing down big numbers rather than small ones, but you cannot make an awesome character in this way.

    *steps down from soapbox*

    I give my players 25 point buy and will give out stat bonuses as they progress in levels with the caveat that stat boosting items are super rare. It's nice to have players wearing something more interesting than belts of giant strength and gloves of dexterity without them feeling gimped.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    Tryn wrote:

    Don't forgett, the player characters are "Heros"!

    For a "heroic" Barbar/Fighter (e.g. Conan or Caramon) Str 18 should be ok. (Or can you imagine Dragonlance with a Str 14 Caramon?)

    The player characters aren't commoners they are gifted by birth, that's why they called heros.

    An 18 Str is completely possible with 15-Point Buy:

    Human using Caramon for inspiration
    18 Str (10 for 16 +2 race), 12 Dex (2), 14 Con (5), 8 Int (-2), 10 Wis (0), 10 Cha (0)
    or possibly
    18 Str (10 for 16 +2 race), 12 Dex (2), 13 Con (3), 8 Int (-2), 10 Wis (0), 12 Cha (2) with Toughness at 1st level and +1 Con at 4th

    Note that Raistlin probably dumped both Con and Cha for a 20 Int... X-o

    BTW, Conan is not a "Standard Fantasy" character. He's "High Fantasy" or even "Epic Fantasy."

    PCs are already heroes with 15-Point Buy. See Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, pg. 451:

    "Basic NPCs: The ability scores for a basic NPC are: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8.
    Heroic NPCs: The ability scores for a heroic NPC are: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8."

    A 15-Point Buy is equivalent to the Heroic NPC array.

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