Just giving my $0.02 worth on the paladin ability smite evil. It's way too powerful, especially at high levels. Unless we start having more nonevil aligned villains (which is silly in a heroic game of good versus evil). Just my opinion I want pathfinder to know, otherwise great game that I am enjoying. I will continue to order the books and play the game.
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I can't decide if it's worse that you didn't necromance this thread or that you brought the issue up at all.
Either way, it will only end in tears.
Convert blackguards to even it out.
But no one said that you have to play good versus evil, or that all evil is found in dragons, undead and outsiders.
Make sure you have more combats at one day. I am talking about at least 4. That means the Paladin can use his smite on lousy enemeys. Second: Make Sure you put Neutral enemeys as well in the combat. If the paladin spoils a smite on a neutral enemy, he is pissded!
Dont forget: Lawful Good in the paladin is hard to play in rpg. You will problaly cost your party a lot of money.
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Long story short, the paladin only gets it against 7 targets a day at most. Yes, he will destroy single evil targets, but so will most parties through action economy. Adjust encounters and bad guy tactics to challenge him through multiple targets, wasted smite attempts, and not allowing him to melee the BBEG. Don't take his toys away because he does his job well. Make him work for it so that when he does get to full attack destroy the bag guy, he's earned it.
And hopefully we won't argue this for another eight pages.
My Kingmaker party consists of three major power houses. A paladin who will destroy anything evil. A wizard who's save DC's are insane. A ranger that will perforate any humanoid target. Do you know what my favorite monsters are?
Giant plants.
I've playtested it, just giving my opinion for customer feedback.Completely too powerful.
I've playtested it, just giving my opinion for customer feedback.Completely too powerful.
I dunno, in my GM'd campaign I saw a fighter out-damage the paladin, and I play a game where it appears the Inquisitor is out-damaging the paladin (too early to say decisively yet).
Smite evil is good, but over the course of an adventure path, even one that's full of evil critters like Runelords, they're really no better than the others.
I'm really glad the paladin now has a power that is "worth having" to the point where people think it's too good. But I've seen paladins alongside other classes and they just about break even.
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I've done two things, both ideas that I read here:
1. Don't allow the Smite to automatically bypass DR.
2. Require that the paladin focus on the enemy he's declared a Smite on to the exclusion of all others. If he turns aside or does not strive to attack the target each round the Smite lapses.
Now the paladin is in line with the other players PCs except for one over-the-top bugbear PC with a Str of 32 when raging... :(
I feel your pain man, but all things must be put into perspective.
8 level 10 players against a CR 12 black dragon, mature adult type.
Round one over half the party failed their save against the BW, only one player was out of range (the dragon had that feat or spell [can't remember now] from Draconomicon that made her line a cone). Lousy rolls happen to PC's sometimes.
The fey sorc summoned a celestial dire lion. Two rounds later as healers worked double time to keep the players alive, one dead dragon. Almost all of the damage came from the lion on that second round. It was the DR evil that allowed the lion to go a second round (a different discussion I know, but it was also me GMing stupidly). The smite from the lion added 8 damage per hit. That dragon was mince meat. The party paladin was there, and oh yes she smited, but she become a cleric real fast as the parties hp began to disappear.
Smite really is amazing at times. It's just an aspect of the game and has to be considered when making BBEG's. Don't be afraid to have a guy flee if he's a target of a smite. Yeah, it last all frakking day, but even a disguised foe soaking up a smite and leaving while the BBEG readies for battle is a drain on resources.
Also, don't be afraid to use cabals were more than one guy is in charge. Don't be afraid to use a married couple as the main villains.
Is there a ruling on undetectable alignment and smite evil? Can they still be smited?
Is there a ruling on undetectable alignment and smite evil? Can they still be smited?
Evil is evil even if undercover. They are still smite targets. The paladin just can't get them with the evil radar.
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which the deity would know target is evil, but tha paladin would n ot thus, would not ahve used it.
Or he can take the gamble and try anyways. Some things are pretty easy to tell. You know the cultist in the woods sacrificing children? Probably evil. That demon over there selling souls? Probably evil.
Just because you can't Detect evil doesn't mean they aren't evil and you wouldn't smite them -- especially since the undetectable alignment spell is on the paladin's list so he knows it exists.
and when that cultist out in the woods or that demon turn out to be nothing more than illusions churned out by a Nymph getting a little payback on your paladin for rude gestures , you loose a smite for it.
attack first, smite after, or if you can detect it.
I'm not saying the paladin wouldnt know it exists, but the paladin isnt Capt. Smurf Obvious either
I can't decide if it's worse that you didn't necromance this thread or that you brought the issue up at all.
Either way, it will only end in tears.
But....niekrowmauncy is.....evil....
But....niekrowmauncy is.....evil....I can't decide if it's worse that you didn't necromance this thread or that you brought the issue up at all.
Either way, it will only end in tears.
"But evil is more fun! We also have hotter babes more often, or at lest hot ones with questionable morals. Which are normally the fun ones."
"But evil is more fun! We also have hotter babes more often, or at lest hot ones with questionable morals. Which are normally the fun ones."But....niekrowmauncy is.....evil....I can't decide if it's worse that you didn't necromance this thread or that you brought the issue up at all.
Either way, it will only end in tears.
"The green ones bangable, but I have a few more in mind"
here
here
here
here
here
here
oh here too
also not bad
this one throws a abyssalbly good party
"And lest not forget"
this one
Or this one
Or her
This one was at the last party I think
and her
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I like paladins being (overly) powerful.
My vision of a paladin's life is this:
he's essentially like the Shogun Assassin in Lone Wolf and Cub.
He's a marked man. He gets no rest. No respite.
Every splash page of every comic book about him is a new gob of ninja dudes with straw buckets on their heads coming to put the whack on him.
Demons, devils, daemons, githyanki, drow, on and on all have their reasons why they really want to do this guy in in the worst way.
ANY adventure put in his path, like Luke Skywalker to the Death Star, he has to go after; he can't haggle with the boss for more cash or threaten not to do it. He's not Han Solo. He has to go save the day.
Any nighthag worth her salt yearns to have a hobbled low-level paladin grovelling through the refusestrewn halls and chambers of her skanky nasty abode shaking his fist at her and moaning "you can break....my...body but...you can never break...my....spirit..." out of a bleeding yap missing multiple teeth while she cackles at him and cuts his fingers off for her brew.
I know it's set up for the paladin to be attention-whore-par-excellence, but I think their deity would want to hook them up with some heinous anti-evil artillery cos they're really gonna get it stuck to them by the dark side.
There is no question in Pathfinder the Paladin got the love. *shrugs*
"The green ones bangable, but I have a few more in mind"
here
here
here
here
here
here
oh here too
also not bad
this one throws a abyssalbly good party"And lest not forget"
this one
Or this one
Or her
This one was at the last party I think
and her
"I fail to see how, I mean I would bang her but shes does not beat even half on the above list, Not by a long shot and they I know are more likely to be fun and not to squeamish about a little murder here or a scarification there or ya know having more girls in the hot tube then it can safely hold, and oh nude freeze tag, with ya know ray of frost spells." Shacks head in bewilderment "Just not sure how that one wins shes just not that hot, bangable but I'd take the others, they don't mind sharing a bit"
"I fail to see how, I mean I would bang her but shes does not beat even half on the above list, Not by a long shot and they I know are more likely to be fun and not to squeamish about a little murder here or a scarification there or ya know having more girls in the hot tube then it can safely hold, and oh nude freeze tag, with ya know ray of frost spells." Shacks head in bewilderment "Just not sure how that one wins shes just not that hot, bangable but I'd take the others, they don't mind sharing a bit"
"That only happened the one time. Besides I got to use the drill next :)" Tilts head in thought "But ya know having them fear you, being near unkillable and the boss of your own layer does indeed help. I can send ya a couple of succubi over if ya want to find out, it only hurts a little the first time and sooooooooooooo worth it"
You couldn't tap any dat nohow.
Points to Demon lord title "When your a Demonlord ya have your on portfolios as well, and well tribbles only do a few things :) but they do em really, really well." Kicks a few out of his way The one things the layers swarming with is succubi and tribbles. You should drop by some time, been ages since I had any visitors. Well have a BBQ roast a few angles or lost souls or something."
BLa bla bla: His is to strong, o no!
Don't forget: When a poor mother asks to help to find her lost child/husband in the dungeon. The paladin Goes, wihtout demands or the like.
When he knows that the evil dragon/deamon/wizard is terrorzing a villige: he goes to fight.
Make Sure he has to made choices in this manner. Do good things because your code says so!
When fighting evil the paladin is likeley the first target to take. They hate him!
I honestly haven't found smite to be "too powerful."
Quite frankly if you're setting the party against only one or two enemies, you're setting the enemies up to lose.
The paladin's biggest "problem" is that DMs still think a final battle is meant to be the entire party against one person.
Edit: Also, meh, too many white chicks :|
Edit: Also, meh, too many white chicks :|
Agreed
Yah know, while we're at it, Fireball and Magic Missile are broken too. Same thing with that silly 'Players get to have cure spells' thing too. Can we get somebody on that?
What about the Craven feat and the like ?
Probably one of the most influential villains of female persuasion, Brigid O'Shaughnessy.
Regards,
Ruemere
+1, awesome pic!
I think the argument is that smite itself is overpowered and potentially limits what GM can through at a party. Celestial summons gaining the new smite makes those summons clutch in some fights. Now, I didn't want my players to fail against the dragon, but I did want them to take more advantage of their terrain as opposed to beating it with a smitey liony stick.
On paladins smite is probably okay, usually there's only one paladin per party, but putting it on something with pounce?
And on an only slightly related note, Druids got hosed with SNAlly. Not even a fey or elemental template to put on thier critters? Really?
I think the argument is that smite itself is overpowered and potentially limits what GM can through at a party. Celestial summons gaining the new smite makes those summons clutch in some fights. Now, I didn't want my players to fail against the dragon, but I did want them to take more advantage of their terrain as opposed to beating it with a smitey liony stick.On paladins smite is probably okay, usually there's only one paladin per party, but putting it on something with pounce?
Well, luckily Smite Evil (and conversely, Smite Good) on Celestial (Fiendish) creatures is not the same of Paladins' - more of a diluted version.
PRD -> Monster Advancement -> Simple Templates:
"Special Attacks smite evil 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against evil foes; smite persists until target is dead or the celestial creature rests)."
No add Cha to AC as a Deflection Bonus, no double damage against Undead/Evil Dragons/Evil Outsiders, no bypass any DR. The attack itself is not even (by RAW, at least) considered Good-Aligned (Evil-Aligned) !
So, a smiting Celestial Lion pouncing against a Babau would still inflict 10 points of damage less per attack (and would inflict only +5 damage per attack due to its 5HD, not +10).
Boohoe! Smite is to good! Plz stop Whining.
I have played, paladins, wizards, clerics and druids. I have seen Rangers and Rogues in action and they are all good in their expertise erea. Look at the level 5,6,7,8,9 spells of the casters. What makes Smite Evil better than that? I dont see it. The Sneak attack of a rogue with two weapon fighting is an awful sight for a GM. It tears a Balor in pieces.
Summon monster is a full round action. Instead of casting Fireball, Or cone of Ice you get a celestial monster. Not better, but different.
Sorry for the heavy reaction, but its bothering me.
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If you would run the numbers, you would see that an optimized Paladin making a smiting full attack against a member of Team Evil (undead, dragon, outsider) has rather high chances of dropping said target in 2 rounds max, without any saves, SRs and immunities involved. It's not really something a caster can achieve.
While I don't consider that a Bad Thing, mostly because 3.5 Paladins were useless douchebags, and now they have something to bring to the table apart from their uppity moral codes and "no, we can't steal/kill/raper/burn this" attitude, there are many posters around here who consider the new Paladin to be zomgwtfbbq broken.
I honestly haven't found smite to be "too powerful."
Quite frankly if you're setting the party against only one or two enemies, you're setting the enemies up to lose.
The paladin's biggest "problem" is that DMs still think a final battle is meant to be the entire party against one person.
Seriously, is there no way to cull the 'I want an awesome fight for the end of the adventure, let me park a single big bad in front of the party, that will work' attitude? Come on people...it just plain doesnt work.
Boss fights should look like this
If you would run the numbers, you would see that an optimized Paladin making a smiting full attack against a member of Team Evil (undead, dragon, outsider) has rather high chances of dropping said target in 2 rounds max, without any saves, SRs and immunities involved. It's not really something a caster can achieve.
While I don't consider that a Bad Thing, mostly because 3.5 Paladins were useless douchebags, and now they have something to bring to the table apart from their uppity moral codes and "no, we can't steal/kill/raper/burn this" attitude, there are many posters around here who consider the new Paladin to be zomgwtfbbq broken.
I have run the numbers, and the smiting paladin (normal smite) is still outdamaged by the fighter who doesnt have a per day mechanic to his abilities, nor a limitation on who he can use them on. Its only against team badguy that the paladin exceeds the fighter. And in that case, they SHOULD be badass. That is their thing they do. Put some minions between the big bad and the paladin and move on.
If you would run the numbers, you would see that an optimized Paladin making a smiting full attack against a member of Team Evil (undead, dragon, outsider) has rather high chances of dropping said target in 2 rounds max, without any saves, SRs and immunities involved. It's not really something a caster can achieve.
While I don't consider that a Bad Thing, mostly because 3.5 Paladins were useless douchebags, and now they have something to bring to the table apart from their uppity moral codes and "no, we can't steal/kill/raper/burn this" attitude, there are many posters around here who consider the new Paladin to be zomgwtfbbq broken.
I have run the numbers, and the smiting paladin (normal smite) is still outdamaged by the fighter who doesnt have a per day mechanic to his abilities, nor a limitation on who he can use them on. Its only against team badguy that the paladin exceeds the fighter. And in that case, they SHOULD be badass. That is their thing they do. Put some minions between the big bad and the paladin and move on.
Thank you for the explanation. Quit Clear! I want to say: Thats absolutely right! My GM put some crappy monsters in the game before my evil kicking paladin could reach him. That makes it a lot of less interesting, the smite thing.
The paladin is not a very tactical class, Run in and kill! If the GM master has the same tactics with evil creatures then the paladin Wins!
if you have a smart gm who uses versitile tactics then the paladin has a hard time and then are the Druid and Wizars(if the players are smart) way better.
What is even more powerful is when the Paladin shares his smite with the TWF rogue. In one round, the Paladin, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard and Artificer did about 150% of his total hit points against a boss at our recent session.
Bosses really need to be triplets (at least).
Edit: Also, meh, too many white chicks :|
"While I agree, ya know how few hot non white evil chicks there on with cloths on? I did have a blue one though and one that was greenish, I'll see what I can do"
Feel free to quote my posts from the LAST Paladin/Smite Evil thread(s) :-)
Basically, options I see to 'tone it down' (but not too much):
Instead, double the CHA bonus to Saves vs. abilities of (Smited) Dragons/Undead/Outsiders.
Makes sense to me.
Since AoJ now functions as a continuous emanation, it makes sense that your allies no longer have to "Smite" themselves (using a Swift Action) but would be 'forced' to share the same Smite Target (designated when Aura of Justice is activated), which keeps the ability very single-target focused, rather than easily obliterating the multi-monster encounter the GM whipped up just to create a challenge for the single-target "nuclear option" of Smite Evil.
I don't think much more should be taken away from the Paladin, as the class is designed around the powerful, but very limited per/day Smite Evil without many other offensive abilities usable on multiple enemies or encounters per day. That's a very "swingy" balance, but it is a balance that reducing the strong side too much would disrupt, IMHO.
Put on a draco-lich with an antimagic field on. Game over :)