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RPG Superstar 2015

KM Post Count


Kingmaker


The Kingmaker forum post count is the first to break the trend of declining post counts for each successive AP. Before Kingmaker each new AP forum has had less posts than the previous. Kingmaker has more posts than both LoF and CoT. I know this can be chalked up to the oldest APs will always have the most posts but I don't think its the only factor.

I wonder if this is indicative of Kingmakers popularity/sales? Kingmaker seems to be more popular an AP than the last few releases as far as I can tell since I am seeing it discussed more, and in more places, than the previous APs.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I do think Kingmaker has a surge of popularity and interest from players who aren't normally Paizo fans. I do suspect that the high post count has more to do with the new rules subsystems that have been introduced. Exploring and Kingdom Building are new, so even if you had the same level of popularity you'd get more posts as people ask questions. It won't be until the sales numbers are in for the entire path that we can really tell if the entire path is more popular. It could be that more people buy Volume 2 just to look at the Kingdom stuff, but less people buy Volume 6.

Of course Paizo is unlikely to provide numbers, but I would hazard a guess that they'd say something like "We are very pleased with Kingmaker's performance so far."


deinol wrote:

I do think Kingmaker has a surge of popularity and interest from players who aren't normally Paizo fans. I do suspect that the high post count has more to do with the new rules subsystems that have been introduced. Exploring and Kingdom Building are new, so even if you had the same level of popularity you'd get more posts as people ask questions. It won't be until the sales numbers are in for the entire path that we can really tell if the entire path is more popular. It could be that more people buy Volume 2 just to look at the Kingdom stuff, but less people buy Volume 6.

Of course Paizo is unlikely to provide numbers, but I would hazard a guess that they'd say something like "We are very pleased with Kingmaker's performance so far."

its the first PF module AP ive bought into

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Here's hoping it is a big success and that we'll see more sandbox style campaigns from Paizo in the future.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Maps, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

This also could be because KM has so much that can be used in other APs and generic PF...

Like the Sandbox Style, the Kingdom Building, and the Mass Combat sections

Or the fact that you get to Ally with Kobolds, Lizardmen and Boggards if you play your cards right...without having to go Evil...

Or the "Wanted Poster" game style

Or it could be the free Hireling Supplement...

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32 , Star Voter 2014

gigglestick wrote:
Or the "Wanted Poster" game style

That part made me cringe, actually, though the rest of the module looks good. It just looks too much like a series of MMORPG "Kill Six Rats" quests. I haven't read through the whole thing, so I hope it plays out better than that. I may never run it, but I'm almost embarrassed to let other gamers see it.


I think that the wanted poster element is important in a sandbox type adventure. It gives the party a few leads/reasons to step outside the fort, gives them a motivation other than blindly blundering across the countryside and puts some of the control into the players hands.

I can see it raising some interesting role playing amongst the players as they prioritise their activity.


Malorium wrote:
I can see it raising some interesting role playing amongst the players as they prioritise their activity.

The Wanted Posters have been very popular with my players. Not only from a prioritising viewpoint, but players love hand-outs.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

Banesfinger wrote:
Malorium wrote:
I can see it raising some interesting role playing amongst the players as they prioritise their activity.
The Wanted Posters have been very popular with my players. Not only from a prioritising viewpoint, but players love hand-outs.

My players have enjoyed having the little mini-quests pop up, as they create another in-character tie to NPCs and events going on. It's not some arbitrary thing that just *happens* - it grows organically (or at least it FEELS organic to the players) out of the campaign.

Same with the rumors from the back of each mod - as they explore and gather news, they have an assortment of potential hooks to navigate, and the campaign world around them is dynamic. The hooks they take up, they deal with. The ones they DON'T, things happen with those as well.

The only one that has that feel the above poster described is the very first one "kill six bandits and get a reward." All of the rest have, I think, perfectly usable in-game rationales.


I think to some extent people were waiting to see if Pathfinder RPG was gonna work out.

I definitely think the Kingmaker format has met with approval, but I also think that the PRPG is a much bigger factor in subscription numbers. People may have avoided going into CoT because they thought the whole thing might collapse. 6 months later, PRPG is more a known quantity, exploring an old-school concept in a new way, people are going to feel much better about taking that 6-month plunge.

It's all a total guess, anyway. I just think that PRPG skepticism is the more likely explanation.

Silver Crusade Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber

If its any indication I'm running a Massive Multiplayer Offline RPG with 12+ players. Those "Poster" quests are a great way of seperating those players into smaller groups. That way they have a goal in the Stolen Lands outside of wander around mapping things.

In any case, I hope James Jacobs sees that their "Experimental" AP is already a smashing success.


I don't like the posters either. They just seem goofy for some reason.

I will probably try to integrate the ideas of the quests into the game when I run Kingmaker, but I won't use the posters.

Ken

Paizo Employee Creative Director

I should note that even just using the quests as a way for you the GM to keep track of what ones the PCs are on is a perfectly valid use for them. And even if you don't use that, the fact that they're so easy to find as sidebars or inside the covers is important—makes it easy for you to find them in play and give the PCs some direction.

Of course, if your PCs are good at giving themselves their own direction, you might not even need the quests. Of course... in nearly three decades of playing, I have yet to see ANY group of PCs that, when presented with a huge sandbox type game, are able to decide with any modicum of swiftness on one thing to do. Because everyone wants to be a star and the main character.

Dark Archive

I enjoy the posters. Lends that "wild west" ("savage south" maybe?) feel to the whole endeavor.

As for the post counts, yep, I think a lot of discussion has been on the topics of kingdom-building, exploration, etc. and both managing the new rules and modes of play and bringing those elements to life in the minds of players. There are also many threads on fan-made resources.

But if anything, I think that we come here and mull over these things and share ideas to the extent indicated by the post count shows that "Kingmaker" has fired the imaginations of lots of people.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Kingmaker seems to have brought in a LOT of new players. That, combined with the fact that the PF RPG itself has brought in a lot of new folks to the fold has something to do with it... remember, Kingmaker's the first AP to launch with the momentum of the PF RPG already established. Council of Thieves launched simultaneously with the core rulebook, not later once the core rulebook started making some pretty impressive ripples.

There's also the fact that a single AP is going to take most groups more than 6 months to play, but we put a new one out every 6 months. It could be that Kingmaker started when folks were finally finishing up Runelords or Crimson Throne or other APs.

I also think that the tripple-whammy of the sandbox style, the use of hexes, and the new rules subsystems got Kingmaker a lot of attention.

There's lots of possible reasons for the increase in post count, in other words. I suspect that all of those reasons are good news for Paizo. :)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

All signs point to the fact that Kingmakers is a major success. It made quite a splash in the community, including drawing the attention of the "old-school revival" crowd which shunned 3.5 but got drawn to the idea of 1e-like hexcrawling.


Yes, I guess there are many reasons for the increase in post count in the KM forum. I do believe it is one of the more popular (in sales and discussion) APs to date as well.

I just ordered KM#1 off Amazon and will take a look. Maybe I'll run it after we finish RotRL. If I do run it it will be in 3.5 so a good test of the compatibility between the two systems.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32 , Star Voter 2014

Jason Nelson wrote:
The only one that has that feel the above poster described is the very first one "kill six bandits and get a reward." All of the rest have, I think, perfectly usable in-game rationales.

Possibly. But if I were an unscrupulous sort of person in the lawless frontier, and I saw a poster telling me Joe Homesteader wanted to give 50 gold to the group that killed a wild boar that was giving him trouble... Well, if the guy can't handle a boar, he probably can't defend himself against an unscrupulous sort of person coming to his house and taking that 50 gold. And Joe Homesteader might serve as a lesson to the others not to advertise how much disposable income they have.

In times of chaos, we must ask ourselves, "What would Al Swearengen do?"

Now, if I were to run the campaign, I would very likely use those quest ideas, but not as posters on a board. I'd have the PCs encounter those people individually, by chance at first, then as their reputation grew, have the people come directly to them. Not necessarily say what they'll pay up front, unless the PCs don't do anything without a promise of a reward.

For the kill-six-bandits quest, I might put a bounty on some sigil of membership that the bandits carry, not stop rewarding at six kills, and make the value of the bounty go down as time goes on (bandits are less of a problem and/or the guy's running low on reward money). Something to make it more organic.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

Christopher Dudley wrote:
Jason Nelson wrote:
The only one that has that feel the above poster described is the very first one "kill six bandits and get a reward." All of the rest have, I think, perfectly usable in-game rationales.

Possibly. But if I were an unscrupulous sort of person in the lawless frontier, and I saw a poster telling me Joe Homesteader wanted to give 50 gold to the group that killed a wild boar that was giving him trouble... Well, if the guy can't handle a boar, he probably can't defend himself against an unscrupulous sort of person coming to his house and taking that 50 gold. And Joe Homesteader might serve as a lesson to the others not to advertise how much disposable income they have.

In times of chaos, we must ask ourselves, "What would Al Swearengen do?"

I have no idea who that is, but presumably a not-nice sort of person, so I think I can infer the meaning.

Christopher Dudley wrote:
Now, if I were to run the campaign, I would very likely use those quest ideas, but not as posters on a board. I'd have the PCs encounter those people individually, by chance at first, then as their reputation grew, have the people come directly to them.

Ahhhhh, I think I misunderstood your original object.

I don't think that many (if any) of these "wanted posters" are intended to be literal "wanted posters" tacked on a board outside Ye Olde Tradinge Poste.

I think the flavor text on all of them indicates "NPC Bob has this problem. He gives this info to the PCs and offers a reward if they can do it." All of them presuppose either (a) a personal encounter with the NPC in question or (b) local rumor/gossip pointing to a particular individual who wants something done or knows about some local menace and might be able to point the PCs in the right direction. For Arven the fisherman wanting you to deal with Ol' Crackjaw or Stas and the hodag or Svetlana and her ring or "the alchemist" and shamblesap, the PCs can encounter it on either end of the rumor equation. Either:

1. They hear a rumor about the menace itself, and in tracking it down or researching it they "hear tell that so-and-so is offering a reward for (something to do with that menace)." This certainly would be the path for straight bounty adventures (king of the forest, troll bounty, bandit bounty/stag lord).

or

2. They hear that "so-and-so needs a hand with something" or they just happen to encounter that NPC with no foreknowledge, and in talking with the NPC they learn that this NPC or the locals nearby have a particular problem, using the "wanted poster" to simply serve up an adventure hook.

I would agree that using them as detached in-character posters that the characters see as the players see them would be pretty silly.

I think the intention is that these are game aids for the players to represent reward opportunities they have come across in the course of their normal interaction with the people and critters in the game world.

(They also have the convenience of having a picture of either the object of the quest or the person who offers it, plus a thumbnail of what the quest entails.)

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I've never really seen the wanted posters as MMO-style quests, but much more as Grand Theft Auto-style missions from your character's various contacts. Gee, something from a sandbox-style game in a sandbox-style AP. What are the odds?


Jason Nelson wrote:
Christopher Dudley wrote:
In times of chaos, we must ask ourselves, "What would Al Swearengen do?"
I have no idea who that is, but presumably a not-nice sort of person, so I think I can infer the meaning.

Al Swearengen of Deadwood fame would probably first call him a c**ksucker, and then put a bullet in his head.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
evilash wrote:
Jason Nelson wrote:
Christopher Dudley wrote:
In times of chaos, we must ask ourselves, "What would Al Swearengen do?"
I have no idea who that is, but presumably a not-nice sort of person, so I think I can infer the meaning.
Al Swearengen of Deadwood fame would probably first call him a c**ksucker, and then put a bullet in his head.

Any serious gamer, and especially GM, needs to have watch Deadwood! :)

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game Subscriber
evilash wrote:
Jason Nelson wrote:
Christopher Dudley wrote:
In times of chaos, we must ask ourselves, "What would Al Swearengen do?"
I have no idea who that is, but presumably a not-nice sort of person, so I think I can infer the meaning.
Al Swearengen of Deadwood fame would probably first call him a c**ksucker, and then put a bullet in his head.

I don't know about that. Al was a smart cookie. He recognized that you can only get money from a dead man one time. A properly subdued man will keep paying you money for the rest of his life. Now if said subdued many were to grow a pair of b*!!& and find the wherewithall to question the reason for paying said funds, he may have to kill the uppity c**ksucker and take his money.

Dark Archive

Agree with Zaister! As mentioned up-thread, I get a Wild West vibe not just from the posters but from the frontier campaign in general. I'm looking forward to some good social and political maneuvering as when they establish a business with shady dealings in their home city, I'm going to start building up a Swearengen-esque character. First thought is gnome bard, heheh.


James Jacobs wrote:


Of course, if your PCs are good at giving themselves their own direction, you might not even need the quests.

Ha! My players lose direction when presented with a fork in a path!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Malorium wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


Of course, if your PCs are good at giving themselves their own direction, you might not even need the quests.
Ha! My players lose direction when presented with a fork in a path!

Grats! KM posters we have passed Second Darkness in post count. Now all we need is 6000 more to pass Curse of the Crimson Throne. Keep up the posts lol.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
PJ wrote:
Grats! KM posters we have passed Second Darkness in post count. Now all we need is 6000 more to pass Curse of the Crimson Throne. Keep up the posts lol.

Done and done. It'll be a tall order, however, to ever surpass Rise of the Runelords - especially given that the next couple APs which are due out which look like could be very popular themselves.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yes, but RotRL has been around for... three+ years now? Whereas Kingmaker managed to surpass CotCT in a little less than a year. I've got faith in the KM forum thread. Let's go KM!


The sandbox nature is big as it means that no two campaigns are going to be look the same once you get past the first first couple modules. Each campaign will have different PC's as rulers, and thus different priorities and stories that shape the campaign. This means that, especially with the new rules presented, there is always going to be something that comes up that DMs will want to seek out the advice of others about as parties go off script or try to use the new rules.


For what it's worth I own every AP up to CoT but was only buying them for the extra fluff and crunch at the back. My group (myself included) hates the amount of railroading required to run most published adventures. I jumped ahead in my AP buying to Kingmaker with the intention of actually running it. Prep is almost done and character creation has started and I plan to run it all the way to 20. I think Kingmaker has shown that it is possible to try something new with APs. I think the strong sense of personality that Carrion Crown looks like it will have is another example. I also think there is evidence that Paizo has taken note of lessons learned from producing Kingmaker, namely that some players would grow more attached to Brevoy than they thought when planing the adventure. I think that the amount of posts on this board have really gone a long way to helping Paizo see the many different ways people are going through the AP and they have responded with new info, an archetype and patience at our many questions. I also believe a thank you is in order for everybody who has been posting player hand outs and other helpful info (special mention for auld grene belte mappe) I think they have enhanced the games of a lot of people.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Troubled_child wrote:
For what it's worth I own every AP up to CoT but was only buying them for the extra fluff and crunch at the back. My group (myself included) hates the amount of railroading required to run most published adventures. I jumped ahead in my AP buying to Kingmaker with the intention of actually running it. Prep is almost done and character creation has started and I plan to run it all the way to 20. I think Kingmaker has shown that it is possible to try something new with APs. I think the strong sense of personality that Carrion Crown looks like it will have is another example. I also think there is evidence that Paizo has taken note of lessons learned from producing Kingmaker, namely that some players would grow more attached to Brevoy than they thought when planing the adventure. I think that the amount of posts on this board have really gone a long way to helping Paizo see the many different ways people are going through the AP and they have responded with new info, an archetype and patience at our many questions. I also believe a thank you is in order for everybody who has been posting player hand outs and other helpful info (special mention for auld grene belte mappe) I think they have enhanced the games of a lot of people.

ditto! I truly appreciate all of the ideas and hard work everyone has donated to KM. My group loves this AP! I believe this will be the most popular AP! Thnx Paizo!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I took the posters with a degree of self-aware humor.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
J.S. wrote:
I took the posters with a degree of self-aware humor.

Hey what's up with KM post count? It's been stuck at 14526? I've seen and posted quite a few it's still at same count.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
PJ wrote:
J.S. wrote:
I took the posters with a degree of self-aware humor.
Hey what's up with KM post count? It's been stuck at 14526? I've seen and posted quite a few it's still at same count.

post count still stuck at same# 14526?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I think it's been there for quite a while. It'll be tough to catch RotRL at this rate... :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Tem wrote:
I think it's been there for quite a while. It'll be tough to catch RotRL at this rate... :)

seriously LOL!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tem wrote:
I think it's been there for quite a while. It'll be tough to catch RotRL at this rate... :)

Conspiracy, I say!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Archmage_Atrus wrote:
Tem wrote:
I think it's been there for quite a while. It'll be tough to catch RotRL at this rate... :)
Conspiracy, I say!

That's what I was thinking! RotRL lovers!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
PJ wrote:
Archmage_Atrus wrote:
Tem wrote:
I think it's been there for quite a while. It'll be tough to catch RotRL at this rate... :)
Conspiracy, I say!
That's what I was thinking! RotRL lovers!

Congrats Kingmaker for 20000 post count. I believe it was even faster than RotRL!!

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

Tru dat. Long live the King(maker)!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Jason Nelson wrote:
Tru dat. Long live the King(maker)!

Keep up the good work Jason!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

Kingmaker seems to have brought in a LOT of new players. That, combined with the fact that the PF RPG itself has brought in a lot of new folks to the fold has something to do with it... remember, Kingmaker's the first AP to launch with the momentum of the PF RPG already established. Council of Thieves launched simultaneously with the core rulebook, not later once the core rulebook started making some pretty impressive ripples.

There's also the fact that a single AP is going to take most groups more than 6 months to play, but we put a new one out every 6 months. It could be that Kingmaker started when folks were finally finishing up Runelords or Crimson Throne or other APs.

I also think that the tripple-whammy of the sandbox style, the use of hexes, and the new rules subsystems got Kingmaker a lot of attention.

There's lots of possible reasons for the increase in post count, in other words. I suspect that all of those reasons are good news for Paizo. :)

I strongly believe it was all of the above. The timing of new rule set and sandbox style play excited a lot of gamers new and not so new. Most everyone I've told about this PF has enjoyed some don't like that the pcs have so many choices to go. It brings back some Birthright memories for me and my friends.

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