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RPG Superstar 2015

Using a two handed weapon with a shield????


Rules Questions

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Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

One of my players got a magic Glaive. Its a two handed weapon. He wants to put a little knock on the top of his shield and slide the glaive onto it so he can use it with the shield. Like they were doing with spears in the movie Troy.

I looked in the Pathfinder rulebook, and there is nothing about using a two handed weapon this way. First of all, can you? If you can, would there be some kind of penalty?


CapeCodRPGer wrote:

One of my players got a magic Glaive. Its a two handed weapon. He wants to put a little knock on the top of his shield and slide the glaive onto it so he can use it with the shield. Like they were doing with spears in the movie Troy.

I looked in the Pathfinder rulebook, and there is nothing about using a two handed weapon this way. First of all, can you? If you can, would there be some kind of penalty?

He can't do it by raw.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Raw? What am I missing?

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
CapeCodRPGer wrote:
Raw? What am I missing?

RAW = Rules As Written

Per the rules of the game (not house rules), there is no way to wield a 2-handed weapon AND a shield.


Although there is plenty of cheese about two-handed weapons and spiked gauntlets.


If you are high enough level, have your player take a look at animated shields. They let you wield a shield and two-handed weapon together. They are expensive and lots of people think they are cheesy, but they do exist in core.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Sorry to sound like a dummy, but can someone tell me where it is written? I thought I looked everything over and could not find it.


Quote:
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
Quote:

Shield, Heavy; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can't use your shield hand for anything else.

...
Shield, Light; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.

Two handed weapons need two hands to wield. Shields need one hand to wield. Barring having three hands or more (such as being a marilith), you are stuck.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules Subscriber
MisterSlanky wrote:
CapeCodRPGer wrote:
Raw? What am I missing?

RAW = Rules As Written

Per the rules of the game (not house rules), there is no way to wield a 2-handed weapon AND a shield.

Lies! Lies I tell you... "Magic" allows you to do anything you want in the game (might have to jump through some hoops though).

Animated Shield (PFRPG pg. 462) + 2H weapon will allow you to do this for several rounds.

Not exactally like the movie but it is core PFRPG/RAW and will allow the use of the shield and 2 handed weapon during the rounds it is activated.

*Wrong*If you are actually ok with the idea and not just looking for a reason to say "No", the backwards compatibility with 3.5 would also let you bring in the feat Monkey Grip allowing use of 2h weapons in 1 hand with a penalty. *WRONG*

EDIT: Bleh Monkey Grip was the one that allowed oversized weapons to be used, at work and had to get around the work firewall to look it up. :-(

The Magic Item Compendium did have the Strong Arm Bracer which would do what you were looking for though. I knew there was something out there and jumped on MG without my books around, sorry.

Dark Archive

he could use a buckler and weild a 2 handed weaon, but thats about it

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ok i did not look in the descritions of shields. I looked in the descritions of two handed weapons.


Name Violation is correct in the fact that you can strap on a buckler and use a two handed weapon. However, while the weapon is being wielded in two hands, the buckler just adds ACP and ASF (if that matters) but doesn't offer its shield bonus to AC.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yah. Buckler's the only way I know to do it, barring magical shield companion thingies. It's handy for my paladin, who decides at any given moment whether he wants to get an AC bonus or more damage from his sword. Doesn't make a lot of sense to do it with a full-time 2H weapon, though...unless he just uses it against ranged attacks on his way to the front and then doesn't use it in the actual battle.
M


I would probably houserule a feat that would let him do it with a regular spear and a light shield, especially if he describes his actions well. I liked the Achilles/Hector fight your player is thinking of.


Well, a shortspear (what they probably are using in the film) is a one-handed weapon, so you can wield all sorts of shields with it. It's just the longer spears that require two hands where you run into problems.


I'd buy that, but they defined a shortspear as 3' long.

"Shortspear: A shortspear is about 3 feet in length, making it a suitable thrown weapon."


Well, if the player wants shield and spear fighting, he's sort of limited to animated shields (9000+ gp) or a short spear and shield (which he can have at level 1 for 4 gp).

Star Voter 2015

Yeah I can get your player what he wants. I'm good like that:

Weapon Sizes:
"Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all."

Long and short of it -- give him a small Glaive. He'll take a -2 to hit with it, and it will do slightly less damage, but he can use it in one hand freeing the other hand for a shield. If you are nice let him take an exotic weapon proficiency or "catch off guard" to use it without the penalty (note this isn't RAW but an easy to use houserule you can throw out there).


I can see using a sloted shield to attack with a spear that is a stright forward thrusting Piercing weapon , but a Glaive is a slashing weapon and that is ALOT more difficult.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Name Violation wrote:
he could use a buckler and weild a 2 handed weaon, but thats about it

Thing is on any round in which he attacks with the glaive, he won't get the buckler's AC bonus. Other thing is that the glaive is a swinging slashing weapon as opposed to a thrusting weapon so it's not used the same way as the spears of Troy.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If you are willing to use 3.5 material, there was a feat in i think complete warrior called improved buckler defense. It allowed the use of a buckler with 'a weapon in each hand' which some believe includes 2handed weapons. You still get a penalty to attack, but if you get a mw mithral buckler it would be negated. Its not exactly what you are looking for but it would allow some kind of sheild and using a glaive.


Me I would just use a houserule that I have trotted out now and again.
Shield Bonus is halved (+4 Tower Shield drops to +2, etc.) and considered slung but not in hand. Withe the caveat that the slung shield stuff only applies to that (spear & shield) fightin' style.

Or make it a Fighter Bonus Feat...


CapeCodRPGer wrote:
One of my players got a magic Glaive. Its a two handed weapon. He wants to put a little knock on the top of his shield and slide the glaive onto it so he can use it with the shield. Like they were doing with spears in the movie Troy.

Also note that the spears in Troy were wielded with ONE HAND. The glaive is FAR longer and heavier than a one handed spear, hence why it is a two handed weapon.

The only way to have both a 2Handed weapon and a shield is to animate the shield via the magic ability.

Star Voter 2015

Gilfalas wrote:
CapeCodRPGer wrote:
One of my players got a magic Glaive. Its a two handed weapon. He wants to put a little knock on the top of his shield and slide the glaive onto it so he can use it with the shield. Like they were doing with spears in the movie Troy.

Also note that the spears in Troy were wielded with ONE HAND. The glaive is FAR longer and heavier than a one handed spear, hence why it is a two handed weapon.

The only way to have both a 2Handed weapon and a shield is to animate the shield via the magic ability.

or use a small version of the weapon.


Abraham spalding wrote:
or use a small version of the weapon.

Of course then it would not be an actual 2 handed weapon any more.

Star Voter 2015

Gilfalas wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
or use a small version of the weapon.
Of course then it would not be an actual 2 handed weapon any more.

I think the main point is to have reach and it is a two handed weapon -- you simply use it as one handed because it's not sized for you (you also suffer the -2 penalty but hey reach and a shield has it's price) -- if a halfling would pick it up he would use it properly: as a two handed weapon.

Method of use doesn't equate to type of weapon. A light weapon is always a light weapon and therefore isn't capable of getting more than x1 on a power attack regardless of who uses it and how.


Im just lost on how a spear cant be used one handed, and must be used two handed.

Must be used two handed, and lacks reach... useless.


CapeCodRPGer wrote:

One of my players got a magic Glaive. Its a two handed weapon. He wants to put a little knock on the top of his shield and slide the glaive onto it so he can use it with the shield. Like they were doing with spears in the movie Troy.

I looked in the Pathfinder rulebook, and there is nothing about using a two handed weapon this way. First of all, can you? If you can, would there be some kind of penalty?

think it would work with a buckler

Star Voter 2015

Shifty wrote:

Im just lost on how a spear cant be used one handed, and must be used two handed.

Must be used two handed, and lacks reach... useless.

Well you've missed vital posts apparently.

Spoiler:

Weapon Sizes:
"Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all."

According to the rules in the spoiler above (which are in the equipment section) you can use a weapon one size category smaller than you are as a lighter weapon (two handed weapons become 1 handed, 1 handed become light -- light stay light). Don't so does not change the special properties of the weapon. After all a small long spear in a halfling's hands has reach and it still does in a human's hand -- it's just easier for the human to use it (hence he can do it with one hand). Now he does take a -2 penalty to hit (per size category of difference) with the inappropriately sized weapon (a small longspear) but it is an one handed weapon for him and he still gets reach since it doesn't lose the reach property just because it's not medium sized.

To recap:

Human fighter level 1 (Str 16 with weapon focus longspear)
Heavy Steel Shield
Small Longspear (To hit bonus: 1 (BAB) + 3 (strength) + 1 (weapon focus) - 2 (wrong sized weapon) = +3 damage: 1d6 + 3) has reach

Dark Archive RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

I'd let him take an Exotic Weapon Proficiency and state that the glaive cannot benefit from reach when being wielded one-handed like this.

The glaive deals 1d10/x3 damage and has reach. The dwarven waraxe (an exotic one-handed weapon) deals 1d10/x3 as well, but does not have reach. Remove the reach and the weapons are balanced (mostly, though the waraxe doesn't gain reach when he switches to two hands like the glaive would). Also, he obviously would not get STR x 1.5 damage when using the glaive in conjunction with the shield, since it's only being used one-handed.

Star Voter 2015

Fatespinner wrote:

I'd let him take an Exotic Weapon Proficiency and state that the glaive cannot benefit from reach when being wielded one-handed like this.

The glaive deals 1d10/x3 damage and has reach. The dwarven waraxe (an exotic one-handed weapon) deals 1d10/x3 as well, but does not have reach. Remove the reach and the weapons are balanced (mostly, though the waraxe doesn't gain reach when he switches to two hands like the glaive would).

Actually I think this is most apt.

After all the dwarven waraxe is two handed as a martial weapon and one handed as an exotic weapon.

With this feat the glaive would be two handed as a martial weapon and one handed (without reach) as an exotic weapon.

Exactly the same in most aspects.


You should also consider that the spear is a thrusting weapon, allowing the slotted shield trick to work easier: the attacker is basically using it a little like a pool cue, using the shield as his guide. The glaive, on the other hand, is a big cleaver on a pole. It is a chopping weapon, and doesn't work well as a stabbing device. Some glaives didn't even have points, depending on who made them.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Well you've missed vital posts apparently.

That's a very 'shifty' solution though - I'd prefer the problem (as I see it) solved, rather than us need dodgy workarounds :P


In this vein, can you weild a torch, a one handed weapon, and a small shield at the same time?


could he not just use a 2 handed weapon designed for a small race ;) then he can use it with a shield hehehe

Star Voter 2015

Phasics wrote:
could he not just use a 2 handed weapon designed for a small race ;) then he can use it with a shield hehehe

Yeah you are late to the show.


Abraham spalding wrote:

According to the rules in the spoiler above (which are in the equipment section) you can use a weapon one size category smaller than you are as a lighter weapon (two handed weapons become 1 handed, 1 handed become light -- light stay light).

This is the only error in your otherwise corrected statement regarding different-sized weapons.

Quoting the rules again,
"The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all."

Since a Light weapon would have his designation reduced by one step, but there is no 'Super-Light' designation, it cannot be wielded by a bigger creature. How can a Human wield a Halfling-sized Dagger effectively ? This is the same as a Human trying to wield an Ogre's Greatclub, which would become a 'Three-Handed Weapon' for him...

Other than that, as I said, your reading is indeed correct.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Phasics wrote:
could he not just use a 2 handed weapon designed for a small race ;) then he can use it with a shield hehehe
Yeah you are late to the show.

wouldnt be the first time ;)

Dark Archive

Did dragon publish in their class acts article for fighters a feat that covered that once I seem to remember it but can't place it

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:

I think the main point is to have reach and it is a two handed weapon -- you simply use it as one handed because it's not sized for you (you also suffer the -2 penalty but hey reach and a shield has it's price) -- if a halfling would pick it up he would use it properly: as a two handed weapon.

Method of use doesn't equate to type of weapon. A light weapon is always a light weapon and therefore isn't capable of getting more than x1 on a power attack regardless of who uses it and how.

Actually I think the main point is the one he made in his first post.

CapeCodRPGer wrote:


One of my players got a magic Glaive. Its a two handed weapon. He wants to put a little knock on the top of his shield and slide the glaive onto it so he can use it with the shield. Like they were doing with spears in the movie Troy.

He wants to use the full size one he already has.

Star Voter 2015

So again he wants reach and he wants a shield. Specifically with the weapon he has though. This too can be done:

Sit the weapon down, get enlarge person permanencied on the character in question. Pick weapon up use it as an one handed weapon.

*quick notes -- The Wraith is right -- no super light weapons. -- Phasics -- quite correct but it does work you are right.


noretoc wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

I think the main point is to have reach and it is a two handed weapon -- you simply use it as one handed because it's not sized for you (you also suffer the -2 penalty but hey reach and a shield has it's price) -- if a halfling would pick it up he would use it properly: as a two handed weapon.

Method of use doesn't equate to type of weapon. A light weapon is always a light weapon and therefore isn't capable of getting more than x1 on a power attack regardless of who uses it and how.

Actually I think the main point is the one he made in his first post.

CapeCodRPGer wrote:


One of my players got a magic Glaive. Its a two handed weapon. He wants to put a little knock on the top of his shield and slide the glaive onto it so he can use it with the shield. Like they were doing with spears in the movie Troy.

He wants to use the full size one he already has.

Well with a slight bending of the rules one could argue the shrink item spell that reduced an object by 4 categories could be tailored to instead reduce the size of an object by 1 category instead.

not RAW but its not that much of a stretch


Phasics wrote:
noretoc wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

I think the main point is to have reach and it is a two handed weapon -- you simply use it as one handed because it's not sized for you (you also suffer the -2 penalty but hey reach and a shield has it's price) -- if a halfling would pick it up he would use it properly: as a two handed weapon.

Method of use doesn't equate to type of weapon. A light weapon is always a light weapon and therefore isn't capable of getting more than x1 on a power attack regardless of who uses it and how.

That's what i thought too, but not according to Core p.144: "The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would

wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon".


or you could just design a homebrew kit for a shield that allows the player to wield the shield and a two-handed polearm in one hand.

or even a specialized feat for this. name it after the character.

honestly, i don't see this as game breaking.

don't be afraid to take ownership of your game, no matter what others say or think or believe might happen.


this might be an odd idea but interesting and fun for gm's, and players, is to make or have magic items that are suedo race points, EX. a sash taking the back(cap slot) that gives another arm to the player, this would allow a shield and any two handed weapon to be used, or duel wield with. or protection items like a faerie wings shield amulet, gives DR/5 cold iron as if you were a fay creature, or any thing else from the race creation selection use the RP as a price guide.


Look at the phalanx soldier archetype, he could be what you are looking for. From 3rd level on he can use a polearm onehanded when using a shield.
But that means that he doesn't get twohanded str. bonus.

Star Voter 2013

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It won't work for a glaive unless you house rule it, but for a spear you want the phalanx soldier fighter archetype. At level 3 they can use any polearm or spear of the correct size as a one-handed weapon while also wielding a shield.

EDIT:Blasted ninjas, at least I used a link.


SlimGauge wrote:
It won't work for a glaive unless you house rule it, but for a spear you want the phalanx soldier fighter archetype. At level 3 they can use any polearm or spear of the correct size as a one-handed weapon while also wielding a shield.

A glaive is a polearm.


CapeCodRPGer wrote:

One of my players got a magic Glaive. Its a two handed weapon. He wants to put a little knock on the top of his shield and slide the glaive onto it so he can use it with the shield. Like they were doing with spears in the movie Troy.

I looked in the Pathfinder rulebook, and there is nothing about using a two handed weapon this way. First of all, can you? If you can, would there be some kind of penalty?

If he takes the Phalanx Solider Archetype of a fighter he can use a two handed polearm or spear of his size one handed while wearing a shield of any type.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Name Violation wrote:
he could use a buckler and weild a 2 handed weaon, but thats about it

You can WEAR a buckler while wielding a two handed weapon, but you won't get any benefit from it. You will also take a -1 to your attacks while wearing it.

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