Panthestic Religion in Golarion


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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For a long time the trend has been to treat the various faiths in Dungeons and Dragons settings as essentially a collection of various monotheistic faiths, devoted to one deity. While characters may offer prayers to many deities it seems that there is a separate church for each god.

I do not like this trope. Personally I think that there should be churches that worship a group of deities. Now there are probably cults devoted to a single deity, in fact, they'd probably be more common than in the real world since the deities would want mortal servants devoted to them specifically. However most people would worship all the deities and thus religion in general would be not focused on any particular deity.

So with this premise in mind, which churches would exist? Obviously modern day Cheliax's church is devoted to Asmodeus and his archdevils. However, there could, perhaps, be remnants of the old church in Cheliax's old territories, like Galt and Andoran. In fact it'd probably be found anywhere that ethnic Chelaxians are found. Obviously, a Aroden would have been important in the church and thus Iomedae would now be important. The Cheliaxian church would probably have developed from the old Azlanti religion, so the Taldoran church would either be similar, or just a regional sect of the same organization. Of course, they may have incorporated parts of the religions of the peoples they interbred with. In fact religion would likely be organized along ethnic lines overall. So any body else have any thoughts? Especially Paizo people?


The average person on Golarion can worship as many or as few deities as he or she wants. However, except in rare circumstances, clerics and paladins gets their powers from a single deity, so while they could revere multiple deities or even an entire pantheon, they would worship only one, the one providing their power.

Check out this thread. While most of it does not go into what you are asking about, there are some posts in there debating pantheistic belief on Golarion.


Yes, I know that, but I don't think that's the way it should be. Especially not for Paladins. Paladins shouldn't get they're power from any particular deity, but from they're devotion to the ideals of the Paladin.


Yes, that could work that way and you could use it in your own created setting, but that is not how they wrote Golarion to work. Also, remember, with the Advanced Player's Guide and revision to the Campaign Setting both coming out later this year, there may very well be optional rules for doing things the way you are suggesting.


Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
Yes, that could work that way and you could use it in your own created setting, but that is not how they wrote Golarion to work. Also, remember, with the Advanced Player's Guide and revision to the Campaign Setting both coming out later this year, there may very well be optional rules for doing things the way you are suggesting.

Yes I know they wrote it that way. I'm saying I don't like it that way, and in fact think it is a bad thing. I'm asking for people suggestions on how they think it would work, not looking for a debate however.


lordzack wrote:
Yes, I know that, but I don't think that's the way it should be. Especially not for Paladins. Paladins shouldn't get they're power from any particular deity, but from they're devotion to the ideals of the Paladin.

This is covered in the CS, look under the paladin write up. Clerics do not normally have that option however with a few exceptions.{Godclaw}

To make it clear paladins often have gods, however a large number are called by all the good or Lawful neutral gods and are the servants of no one god.

Sovereign Court

The "Big 20" pantheon given in the Campaign Setting *is* a single, syncretic religious pantheon, worshipped in toto as one religion. I call it the Absalomite, or Arodenish, Pantheon - it's made up of the "biggest sellers" from the Inner Sea region's major cultures. They're the survivors of the Old Religions from before Aroden's cultural conquest of the Inner Sea. This is why you have multiple Law-givers, multiple Death Gods, multiple Adversaries, and multiple War Gods in a single pantheon.

Your average Inner Sea native is going to pray to Desna before a journey, will invoke Abadar and Asmodeus when signing a contract, will propitiate Urgathoa when ill, and so on. However, a dedicated priest will always be devoted to a specific deity. All of this is keeping with the Hellenic Greek-style religion D&D has hard-coded into the rules. And in keeping with this Hellenic style, you really do see one or two deities' temples/cults heavily emphasized in a given city or region, making it look like there's just a couple of stand-alone religions instead of outposts of the Absalomite pantheon.

As for Paladins, by RAW in Pathfinder, they get their powers from a devotion to a code of Law and Good, not any specific deity; but being religious warriors, they often devote themselves to a deity, as if they were a priest.

Grand Lodge

Wasn't the church in Sandpoint (Rise of the Runelords) home to shrines dedicated to several different gods? Desna was only one of them... I may be remembering wrong...

But I do agree that clerics, and other classes that cast divine spells, should have ONE patron god, but may give thanks and honor any and all of the gods for different circumstances.

I am reminded of the movie Troy, though their patron god was Apollo, they wouldn't destroy the offering to Poseidon, instead, they brought it into the city to honor/please him. I prefer to look at it this way... though many of the gods seem unrelated to each other... I mean, there is mention of Cayden Cailean courting Desna, and how this amused her (being MUCH older) but there is little else in relationships that I have found...

I dunno, just thoughts on the matter... I do like the idea of a Pantheistic religion in Golarion, but that is probably because of my bias towards Greek Mythology! ^_^


Why should every priest be devoted to one god? It makes no sense to me. Why can't a cleric pray to all the deities in the pantheon, calling upon whichever makes sense for whatever spell they're casting at the moment?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

There's ABSOLUTELY panthesim in Golarion. As mentioned above, the temple in Sandpoint... one of the FIRST temples we ever talked about, is a pantheistic temple.

Clerics in Golarion generally have to worship a single deity.

Oracles, though, do not. We specifically created their flavor to support panthestic divine casters. Or divine casters who simply want to embody faith in a single concept (or "mystery") such as flames or bones or whatever.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

lordzack wrote:
Why should every priest be devoted to one god? It makes no sense to me. Why can't a cleric pray to all the deities in the pantheon, calling upon whichever makes sense for whatever spell they're casting at the moment?

Because that's how we define the role of the cleric class. A servant of a single specific deity who gains magical powers in return for his/her servitude.

As I mention in my previous post, characters who generally recieve magical powers for pantheistic worship do exist in Golarion: oracles (or arguably druids or even paladins or rangers). They're not clerics, though.

Same as for arcane spellcasters who don't learn spells and study them with spellbooks; those guys aren't wizards, and part of being a wizard is your spellbook.

Of course, feel free to change things how you want in your game. In Golarion, though, the official way clerics work is one deity.

Note that the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebok is NOT a "Golarion-only" book. But we do retain the flavor of "clerics worship a deity" for the same reason we retain the flavor of "wizards use spellbooks" or "barbarians have rage powers." It's all part of what defines the class as what it is.


It would be a setting thing. In Golarion the CS does not cover this , but there is one instance and that is the order of the Godclaw, They worship a some called heretical teaching that combines Asmodeus Abadar, Iomedae,
Irori, and Torag. They have the domains of Glory, Law, Protection, Strength, and War. Their favored weapon is the morningstar.

This is the one and only example I know of, although many push for the four philosophy from the CS, but only one of those has more then one god,and one has no gods.And in any case those do not seem to grant domains or have clerics who are not clerics of a god.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

seekerofshadowlight wrote:

It would be a setting thing. In Golarion the CS does not cover this , but there is one instance and that is the order of the Godclaw, They worship a some called heretical teaching that combines Asmodeus Abadar, Iomedae,

Irori, and Torag. They have the domains of Glory, Law, Protection, Strength, and War. Their favored weapon is the morningstar.

This is the one and only example I know of, although many push for the four philosophy from the CS, but only one of those has more then one god,and one has no gods.And in any case those do not seem to grant domains or have clerics who are not clerics of a god.

You still need to pick a deity in Golarion in order to be able to pick your domains. Even if you're a member of the order of, say, the Godclaw. Note that there's more than clerics in that order.


James Jacobs wrote:

[

Of course, feel free to change things how you want in your game. In Golarion, though, the official way clerics work is one deity.

Note that the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebok is NOT a "Golarion-only" book. But we do retain the flavor of "clerics worship a deity" for the same reason we retain the flavor of "wizards use spellbooks" or "barbarians have rage powers." It's all part of what defines the class as what it is.

I am saving both of these posts to my hard drive,.


James Jacobs wrote:


You still need to pick a deity in Golarion in order to be able to pick your domains. Even if you're a member of the order of, say, the Godclaw. Note that there's more than clerics in that order.

You have made my week man.


James Jacobs wrote:

There's ABSOLUTELY panthesim in Golarion. As mentioned above, the temple in Sandpoint... one of the FIRST temples we ever talked about, is a pantheistic temple.

Clerics in Golarion generally have to worship a single deity.

Oracles, though, do not. We specifically created their flavor to support panthestic divine casters. Or divine casters who simply want to embody faith in a single concept (or "mystery") such as flames or bones or whatever.

They're does seem to be a separate church (as in the sense of an organization) for each deity, however. It makes more sense to me that for churches to be set up along regional/ethnic lines. So as I said they're might be a Chelaxian church, a Taldoran one, etc.

I don't really see why a cleric should have to devote himself to one deity, other than that's the way it's always been in D&D (and even then, I could probably make a case for it actually starting in 2e, with it's specialty priests). I personally think it was a mistake. Why do you make the decision to have clerics devoted to one deity each?


Ya know lordzack all the panthesim practitioners I know of all have a main or chief deity. All the priest or priestess I know always have a main deity

So let me ask ya, how many panthesim practitioners do you know of? And how much about real panthesim practice have you studied?

Sovereign Court

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Probable pantheons.

The Ascended Gods: Aroden (The Dead Father), Iomedae (The Herald), Cayden Cailean (The Fool), Norgorber (The Shadow). All chosen by the Starstone, all examplars of human chutzpah. Think of them as the gods of achievement and Azlant/Taldor ego; the 'can do' gods.

The Varisian Wild: Desna and Lamashtu. Enemy goddesses, but twined theologically. One represents the open road and the starry night, the other represents the dangers found upon and beneath them. The butterfly/cocoon motif of Desna and the cursed childbirth aspect of Lamashtu suggest a gamut of hopes and fears for Varisian mothers. Very matriarchal, very secretive.

The Golden Home: Abadar and Sheylyn. Wealth, beauty, civilization. It's the godly version of a patron/artist relationship, used as an epitome of refinement. After all, who made all those platonic items within The First Vault if not the finest artisans of Golarion? In this version they wouldn't have grand churches in the manner of the Ascended Gods, but would be idols in guildhalls, banks, salons, gardens and epicurean homes. A good Taldor family might publicly worship the Ascended Gods as symbols of valor and industriousness, while privately saving Abadar and Sheylyn for symbols of the good life.

The Dawnflower: Serenrae. Her own deal. Very monotheistic.

Death: Pharasma and Urgathoa. In Golarion the Grim Reaper is a woman. She appears in a dark robe and her face is veiled. When she appears you much watch her very closely, for in her visage will be clues how you will die. The blessed will see an old, careworn woman behind the veil. The unfortunate will see a young, beautiful face but will smell rot, or see her blackened feet or a bleeding wound. Some say death is one woman. Some say she is two.

***

These are just a few ideas. I'm generally impressed with the Golarion gods but it's difficult to buy them as a pantheon. A good pantheon should act like a hilariously dysfunctional family. For the most part the gods of Golarion are just mildly intolerant neighbors.


Selk wrote:


These are just a few ideas. I'm generally impressed with the Golarion gods but it's difficult to buy them as a pantheon. A good pantheon should act like a hilariously dysfunctional family. For the most part the gods of Golarion are just mildly intolerant neighbors.

The thing is as has been pointed out they were not always in the same v. However over time as lesser gods have been forgotten or replaced these gods have more or less formed to become the modern pantheon. If ya look at the age of some of the nations it's easy to see how the gods spread and overrode the indigenous gods, with the more common regional gods getting spread and lumped with the core pantheon

Sovereign Court

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seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Selk wrote:


These are just a few ideas. I'm generally impressed with the Golarion gods but it's difficult to buy them as a pantheon. A good pantheon should act like a hilariously dysfunctional family. For the most part the gods of Golarion are just mildly intolerant neighbors.
The thing is as has been pointed out they were not always in the same v. However over time as lesser gods have been forgotten or replaced these gods have more or less formed to become the modern pantheon. If ya look at the age of some of the nations it's easy to see how the gods spread and overrode the indigenous gods, with the more common regional gods getting spread and lumped with the core pantheon

True, but in the real world this sort of syncretism allows the gods to merge: Astarte, Isis, Aphrodite...smoosh smoosh smoosh. The confusion creates more stories and a richer tapestry. In Golarion gods have inviolable identities. They can inherit portfolios but never aspects or stories. Iomedea and Callistra will never merge in elvish lands, nor will Abadar and Torag be synonymous in Janderhoff.

So, since cultures can merge but gods can't, Golarion is kinda destined to be a land full of hundreds of house gods but no real pantheons.

Dark Archive

Selk wrote:
The Ascended Gods: Aroden (The Dead Father), Iomedae (The Herald), Cayden Cailean (The Fool), Norgorber (The Shadow). All chosen by the Starstone, all examplars of human chutzpah. Think of them as the gods of achievement and Azlant/Taldor ego; the 'can do' gods.

I could see some of the 'ascended' gods who didn't use the Starstone, such as Irori, Nethys and Urgathoa, being a bit 'less-than-impressed' with those that wandered into the Starstone and got spat out gods, particularly in the case of Cayden Cailean...

That could make an interesting mini-pantheon, the self-made gods, who didn't have divinity handed to them as a quest reward. Each of them is a god of self-advancement, in some ways, whether through mental and physical self-perfection, magical advancement or defeating death itself.


Serenrae also ascended to godhood, she was not mortal when she did so, but she did ascend


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seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Ya know lordzack all the panthesim practitioners I know of all have a main or chief deity. All the priest or priestess I know always have a main deity

So let me ask ya, how many panthesim practitioners do you know of? And how much about real panthesim practice have you studied?

From what I can tell in ancient polytheistic religions most people sacrificed to all the gods equally. There were however, mystery cults which focused on a single deity. There was were also patron deities, but from what I can tell this wasn't an exclusionary thing. Sure, Athens had a temple to Athena, but they also offered sacrifices to the other gods. Thus, the priest would deal with all the gods.

Of course any pantheism practitioners that are actually around for me to meet are not indicative of the ancient religion they may be derived from. They are as I understand it, more like mystery cults. Those are different from the organized state religions of the ancient world. Of course an initiate of a mystery religion would make a good model for a D&D character, but they wouldn't necessarily be a good fit for the D&D cleric.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

lordzack wrote:
I don't really see why a cleric should have to devote himself to one deity, other than that's the way it's always been in D&D (and even then, I could probably make a case for it actually starting in 2e, with it's specialty priests). I personally think it was a mistake. Why do you make the decision to have clerics devoted to one deity each?

Several reasons.

1) Because worshiping one god rather than a pantheon is more the norm for modern readers.
2) Because worshiping one god makes it a lot easier to determine a cleric's holy symbol and all of the cleric's flavor.
3) Because specific gods add a lot of mythical flavor to a game.
4) Because clerics have always been intended to play the role of "the devoted minion of a specific deity."
5) Because the role of worshiping pantheons is, by definition, a diversification and a generalization and a homogenization of beliefs, and thus does not really function as a "specialization."

That last one's the key reason. Think of a cleric as a "specialist" at worshiping a single deity, and by becoming a specialist in that specific faith he or she gains cleric powers.

You can gain powers by NOT becoming a specialist in a faith, but that means you're an adept, paladin, druid, ranger, or oracle.

It's also why druids have to be nature oriented, barbarians can't be lawful, and wizards have to use spellbooks.

It's just the way clerics work in the game.

Grand Lodge

lordzack wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Ya know lordzack all the panthesim practitioners I know of all have a main or chief deity. All the priest or priestess I know always have a main deity

So let me ask ya, how many panthesim practitioners do you know of? And how much about real panthesim practice have you studied?

From what I can tell in ancient polytheistic religions most people sacrificed to all the gods equally. There were however, mystery cults which focused on a single deity. There was were also patron deities, but from what I can tell this wasn't an exclusionary thing. Sure, Athens had a temple to Athena, but they also offered sacrifices to the other gods. Thus, the priest would deal with all the gods.

Of course any pantheism practitioners that are actually around for me to meet are not indicative of the ancient religion they may be derived from. They are as I understand it, more like mystery cults. Those are different from the organized state religions of the ancient world. Of course an initiate of a mystery religion would make a good model for a D&D character, but they wouldn't necessarily be a good fit for the D&D cleric.

That is not entirely true. As a population, all of the gods were offered to and prayed to, but SPECIFIC people would often choose to pray to one or a small set of gods more than others. It would often depend on profession. Sailors and fishermen often prayed to Poseidon over all the others, as hoplites prayed to Athena or Ares more than the others. The priests often were priests of a specific god, and though they performed rituals to all of the gods as was part of their duties, their primary responsibility was to their god over the others.

That is why you had temples to Apollo, or to Zeus. Athens was a capital and as such created the Parthenon to represent all of Olympus, just as it represented the Democracy it was known for, and the variety of it's peoples. That does not mean that there weren't priests dedicated to their god, who spoke as his or her voice.

Of course, much of this is due to my interpretation of history. I am by no means an expert.


Yes but that wasn't universal was it? I'm not saying that no clerics should be devoted to specific deities, but that some should be devoted to the pantheon in general. Of course I too am not an expert. Nor am I saying that this is the way it should be in everyone's game. It's just what seems right to me and I want to discuss it.


All the ones I can think of yeah it was. You had a main personal god, one you related with and then you knew and also did rites for the pantheon as a whole.

Sovereign Court

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cappadocius wrote:
The "Big 20" pantheon given in the Campaign Setting *is* a single, syncretic religious pantheon, worshipped in toto as one religion. I call it the Absalomite, or Arodenish, Pantheon - it's made up of the "biggest sellers" from the Inner Sea region's major cultures. They're the survivors of the Old Religions from before Aroden's cultural conquest of the Inner Sea. This is why you have multiple Law-givers, multiple Death Gods, multiple Adversaries, and multiple War Gods in a single pantheon.

Good explanation, but that's the part that's never sat well with me. It's like the top two or three from each culture get to join together and make a pantheon.

It seems to me that if different old pantheons are going to spread and blend, they would do so following a pattern similar to human migrations. So the myths and stories might actually include tales of when certain gods first met as their chosen people spread across the land. Some of these tales would include the gods of dominate cultures wiping out gods of smaller/weaker cultures but one goddess from the smaller culture might fill a niche in the invader's pantheon so was assimilated rather than exterminated. Other stories of happier blendings might involve the marriage of the god of one culture to the goddess of another. Or a god being cast out of his original pantheon and finding a new home far from his land of origin.

What we haven't seen so far is the story of how the Big 20 came to know each other. I've never been a big fan of stories of where the gods have always known each other or were all present at creation, because it suggests that there have ALWAYS been the Big 20 or were destined to be the Big 20 even when there were 40 or 100 other gods. It seems to me that most gods' stories shouldn't go back much farther than the times of the cultures that began worshiping them. One or two "ancient gods rediscovered" work, but that shouldn't be the norm, not in a world were people are continually ascending to godhood.

Two interesting fantasy pantheons whose stories really "work" for me are from David Eddings' Belgariad and the one from the original Thieves' World books. In Thieves World, the Ilsig and Rankan gods were at war even as their worshipers were at war, and as the strength of the Ranken increased, so did the power of their gods. In the Belgariad, the gods were a family who, long ago, adopted tribes of hunter/gatherers and nurtured them into the modern nations of the world. There was also a newer nation that worshiped all the gods, an empire of several nations that all worshiped the same warlike god, and a tribe with no god who sought out the father of the gods and begged him to be their patron.


Actually Mr. Jacob, that fourth point wasn't the case in the original Blackmoor campaign, and Gary Gygax only bothered to create actual deities for his players to worship after they asked him to sometime after the Greyhawk campaign started. Really I think the game would work just as well if members of the cleric class where assumed to be worship the gods in general. Flavor could be derived by the specific sect they worship, regardless of whether that sect is devoted to one god or many.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
All the ones I can think of yeah it was. You had a main personal god, one you related with and then you knew and also did rites for the pantheon as a whole.

Well if you have knowledge of this I'm curious to learn more about it. Could you cite some examples?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

lordzack wrote:
Actually Mr. Jacob, that fourth point wasn't the case in the original Blackmoor campaign, and Gary Gygax only bothered to create actual deities for his players to worship after they asked him to sometime after the Greyhawk campaign started. Really I think the game would work just as well if members of the cleric class where assumed to be worship the gods in general. Flavor could be derived by the specific sect they worship, regardless of whether that sect is devoted to one god or many.

Well, I guess then what it boils down to is that the people in charge of this particular game (Pathifnder) and campaign setting (Golarion), who grew up not playing Blackmoor but playing Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms, and who found the wide range of deities in those settings to be quite inspiring and interesting, decided to keep that model for the current game.

AKA: It's that way because I prefer it that way. And because for the vast majority of experience for a LOT of gamers for the same reason, it's also the preferred way.

Grand Lodge

I look at it like this: anyone with the skill, Knowledge(religion) knows the rites and rituals to pay homage to the gods. The higher the skill, the more extensive his knowledge. However, clerics, in general seem to be less, representative of the gods as a whole (which would be their adepts) and more representative of their patron god.

Much like priests of old, the clerics are expected to be the voice of their god, and as such should revere and serve that god above all others.

Just my thoughts. Faith has always been a tricky thing for me when role-playing. Faith is easy when you can see the results. Clerics just haven't always been my cup o' tea, just recently, since I discovered Cayden... dude is my favorite of gods...


Off and by name, Madusa who was a priestess in Athena before she was changed into a monster . I do have some books but will have to drag them out. If ya look online and look up Pantheons you will see that in most cases if not all that fall within the classic "pantheon" structure that gods where worship by the community as a whole, but priests where devoted to a personal god.

I know modern pantheism you often are priest to one god in the pantheon , even if you represent them all for rites and such and often call upon them all for different occasions.


James Jacobs wrote:
lordzack wrote:
Actually Mr. Jacob, that fourth point wasn't the case in the original Blackmoor campaign, and Gary Gygax only bothered to create actual deities for his players to worship after they asked him to sometime after the Greyhawk campaign started. Really I think the game would work just as well if members of the cleric class where assumed to be worship the gods in general. Flavor could be derived by the specific sect they worship, regardless of whether that sect is devoted to one god or many.

Well, I guess then what it boils down to is that the people in charge of this particular game (Pathifnder) and campaign setting (Golarion), who grew up not playing Blackmoor but playing Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms, and who found the wide range of deities in those settings to be quite inspiring and interesting, decided to keep that model for the current game.

AKA: It's that way because I prefer it that way. And because for the vast majority of experience for a LOT of gamers for the same reason, it's also the preferred way.

That's certainly a valid answer, after all D&D is a game of the imagination, and thus everybody is going to have a different interpretation. I admit mine is far from common, and you're idea is closer to the majorities. However I don't think that the tradition goes back as far as most people think. The 1st Edition PHB flat out says that a cleric may serve multiple deities. The core rulebooks don't spend that much time talking about religion for that matter. Even in the World of Greyhawk boxed set, nothing says a cleric must worship a single deity. Unfortunately that set does not go into much detail at all about the actual religion of the Flanaess.

Of course saying that most clerics worship the deities does not prevent a "wide range of deities" from existing. Certainly I would not give up the opportunity to include divine rivalries and machinations.

I just realized my problem isn't so much that clerics have patron deities. Mostly it's that I think that religions shouldn't necessarily be organized around which deity they worship. That's too simplistic. Instead there might be different sects that are based on many different factors.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

Off and by name, Madusa who was a priestess in Athena before she was changed into a monster . I do have some books but will have to drag them out. If ya look online and look up Pantheons you will see that in most cases if not all that fall within the classic "pantheon" structure that gods where worship by the community as a whole, but priests where devoted to a personal god.

I know modern pantheism you often are priest to one god in the pantheon , even if you represent them all for rites and such and often call upon them all for different occasions.

Well if they call upon different deties for different occasions, if you translated that into D&D terms wouldn't that mean they might call upon different deities for different spells?


I would not, no. Hell all my pc's tend to do that as do the common people. God of travel before setting off on a journey, god of the sea before an sea voyage, god of war before battle, god of oaths before a deal is made and so on.

You get the spells and domains of Your god, not all of em.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I would not, no. Hell all my pc's tend to do that as do the common people. God of travel before setting off on a journey, god of the sea before an sea voyage, god of war before battle, god of oaths before a deal is made and so on.

You get the spells and domains of Your god, not all of em.

But that's the thing if they worship multiple gods they ought to receive spells from all of them. We've already established that even those who have patron gods worship more than just that god. So why wouldn't they call on the god of healing when casting a cure wounds spell or on the god of protection when casting a protection spell?

Sovereign Court

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lordzack wrote:
But that's the thing if they worship multiple gods they ought to receive spells from all of them. We've already established that even those who have patron gods worship more than just that god. So why wouldn't they call on the god of healing when casting a cure wounds spell or on the god of protection when casting a protection spell?

There's a difference between honoring a god and worshiping a god. I'm going to honor the god of death at a funeral and the god of the sea before a voyage, but I don't worship either of them. Likewise, with me being a commoner, the god of pestilence might accept my offering and not give me the plague, but he ain't granting me any spells either. Gods might grant little boons to regular folk who honor them (the greatest boon might be just leaving them alone...), but gods are only going to take time to offer miracles (i.e., spells) to those who devote themselves to a single god.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

lordzack wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I would not, no. Hell all my pc's tend to do that as do the common people. God of travel before setting off on a journey, god of the sea before an sea voyage, god of war before battle, god of oaths before a deal is made and so on.

You get the spells and domains of Your god, not all of em.

But that's the thing if they worship multiple gods they ought to receive spells from all of them. We've already established that even those who have patron gods worship more than just that god. So why wouldn't they call on the god of healing when casting a cure wounds spell or on the god of protection when casting a protection spell?

Again... because that's not how clerics work. Clerics get their spells from one deity, as a result of their devotion and loyalty to that deity. If a cleric could get his spells from any deity, then there's no reason to be loyal to a single deity.

I really really REALLY think that oracles are going to do exactly what you want when it comes to a divine caster who doesn't worship a single deity.


Mosaic wrote:
lordzack wrote:
But that's the thing if they worship multiple gods they ought to receive spells from all of them. We've already established that even those who have patron gods worship more than just that god. So why wouldn't they call on the god of healing when casting a cure wounds spell or on the god of protection when casting a protection spell?
There's a difference between honoring a god and worshiping a god. I'm going to honor the god of death at a funeral and the god of the sea before a voyage, but I don't worship either of them. Likewise, with me being a commoner, the god of pestilence might accept my offering and not give me the plague, but he ain't granting me any spells either. Gods might grant little boons to regular folk who honor them (the greatest boon might be just leaving them alone...), but gods are only going to take time to offer miracles (i.e., spells) to those who devote themselves to a single god.

Giving offerings and prayers to a god is worshiping them.


James Jacobs wrote:
lordzack wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:

I would not, no. Hell all my pc's tend to do that as do the common people. God of travel before setting off on a journey, god of the sea before an sea voyage, god of war before battle, god of oaths before a deal is made and so on.

You get the spells and domains of Your god, not all of em.

But that's the thing if they worship multiple gods they ought to receive spells from all of them. We've already established that even those who have patron gods worship more than just that god. So why wouldn't they call on the god of healing when casting a cure wounds spell or on the god of protection when casting a protection spell?

Again... because that's not how clerics work. Clerics get their spells from one deity, as a result of their devotion and loyalty to that deity. If a cleric could get his spells from any deity, then there's no reason to be loyal to a single deity.

I really really REALLY think that oracles are going to do exactly what you want when it comes to a divine caster who doesn't worship a single deity.

Thing is I just don't see any reason why that should be the case.


lordzack wrote:

Giving offerings and prayers to a god is worshiping them.

Not it the well christian sense no. You can honor multiple gods and minor spirits but really worship only one. Honor and respect and maybe even some fear will have your giving thanks or signs of warding, but only one god has your full devotion.

It's like you can love many people, but only one would be your true love.


Hmmm... I think this debate has run it's course. If anybody wants to talk about how this idea would actually work I'd like that, but otherwise...

Grand Lodge

If you look at the Oracle and how it works versus the Cleric, there is a distinct difference in how one gains his spells. I have always had trouble with the Cleric that only prays for his spells in the beginning of the day, then can cast them at various times of the day. The Oracle is how I expected a cleric to be. They are spontaneous Divine casters, they pray and the gods bestow the power upon them.

So if you look at it that way. It is very difficult to have a cleric pray to several gods in the morning for circumstances that may or may not arise during the day. It makes more sense to me that they are praying to one god, to watch over him, and grant him said abilities...

Now, the oracle, casts as he needs without spell preparation. I can see more that the oracle comes upon a situation, then prays to a god to overcome something, then oh, another situation, ask Gozreh for rains to help the farmers... etc etc...

Because the cleric gains the domain powers of his god, it has to be one god. To me, gods are inherently selfish and reward those that devote themselves to them. I don't know if that helps...


So the "Golarion Orthodox" answer is clerics and paladins are of one deity, but oracles and normal people and adepts and stuff can be of multiple ones.

1. If you don't like the rule for clerics then change it. I don't know what help you need with that - "choose two of all the domains all the gods in that pantheon do." Ta da. Worst that happens is that clerics aren't stuck with crap domains. (I took Holy Warrior with my cleric of Sarenrae because all her domains sucked.)

2. If you don't like the rule for paladins then change it. No rules changes required.

3. Note that there's also the Pantheon of Many in Korvosa, a temple dedicated to a mess of deities. My cleric in Curse of the Crimson Throne served there. Thought that was relevant.

4. I think in some places there are defined "pantheons." In most places, people are more fully polytheistic - they tend to take the time to worship certain gods more relevant to them as in their country writeups, but don't necessarily disbelieve in gods outside that or whatnot. In general all those well-known gods are really a pantheon, a semi-shared pantheon in most places that aren't all overwrought about Sarenrae or Zon-Kuthon or whoever, just one that (kinda like the Greeks and Romans) different places have semi different takes on.

Note that even the Greeks - sure they were polytheistic, but specific cities and regions had specific ones they considered patrons.


I have to agree, the oracle seems more like what ya want. The cleric has always been a one god servant as far as I can recall {sept in eberron where the gods where fake anyhow}

Also lordzack ya might want to research pantheism and polytheistic worship as truthfully man you have the wrong ideal about alot of it. As Ernest above me points out even the greeks {the most well used examples } had patron gods who in that city or region where "the" god even if others where invoked.

Dark Archive

Just thought I would point out that there does seem to be at least one instance in a Pathfinder product that seems to support the idea of pantheism. Page 22 of Dwarves of Golarian states:

Quote:

Though dwarves honor Torag as the father and creator

of all things, they pay equal homage to his family (with
the exception of Droskar, whom most surface dwarves
shun). Below are spells granted by each of these deities to
the followers of Torag and his relatives.
In order to prepare any of these spells, the caster must
spend an hour performing a ritual in which he beseeches
Torag (or a member of his family) for the aid of one of his
divine family members. For 24 hours after the ritual, the
caster may prepare spells of the requested deity. The caster
may only attune himself to one additional deity at a time.

While the human gods are, as pointed out, from many different cultures and traditions, and so not part of a codified pantheon, if you want to make them so in your home campaign I would suggest looking at this as a starting point. Group various gods into mini-pantheons as you like, and have a cleric function mostly as a worshiper of a specific god within the pantheon, but have the ability to call on aid from the god's fellows within the pantheon. Hope this helps you a bit in making your campaign more to your liking!


James Jacobs wrote:


You still need to pick a deity in Golarion in order to be able to pick your domains. Even if you're a member of the order of, say, the Godclaw. Note that there's more than clerics in that order.

So, does that mean if I played a cleric of the Godclaw, I'd have to designate my deity as, for example, "Asmodeus (Godclaw)"?


lavi wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


You still need to pick a deity in Golarion in order to be able to pick your domains. Even if you're a member of the order of, say, the Godclaw. Note that there's more than clerics in that order.
So, does that mean if I played a cleric of the Godclaw, I'd have to designate my deity as, for example, "Asmodeus (Godclaw)"?

You would have to worship one of the ones listed by the godclaw yes. Your cleric would need to select either Asmodeus Abadar, Iomedae,Irori, or Torag as their personal god.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

lavi wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:


You still need to pick a deity in Golarion in order to be able to pick your domains. Even if you're a member of the order of, say, the Godclaw. Note that there's more than clerics in that order.
So, does that mean if I played a cleric of the Godclaw, I'd have to designate my deity as, for example, "Asmodeus (Godclaw)"?

You would designate your deity as "Asmodeus" and that's it.

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