Panthestic Religion in Golarion


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Grand Lodge

Abraham spalding wrote:

Just a quick something:

<snip, snip>

After all Apollo and Artemis were worshiped together as "the twins" and if one wanted lots of victories in combat praying to both Ares and Athena was a good idea.

Not to nitpick, but soldiers would not pray to BOTH Ares and Athena at the same time. They were opposing forces, and often acted against each other... ^_^


Aeshuura wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

Just a quick something:

<snip, snip>

After all Apollo and Artemis were worshiped together as "the twins" and if one wanted lots of victories in combat praying to both Ares and Athena was a good idea.

Not to nitpick, but soldiers would not pray to BOTH Ares and Athena at the same time. They were opposing forces, and often acted against each other... ^_^

Yes they did cover different aspects of war so you probably wouldn't call on both at the same time -- however each are worthy of consideration for a soldier (and we know from the myths that ignoring any of the greek gods (no matter your side compared to theirs) was not a good idea).

Liberty's Edge

Hey, I decided to resurrect this old thread, because I find the concept interesting. I'm also of the opinion that Golarion could use a centralized "Pantheon" or two, even if only as a way for clerics of different deities to associate more closely. The key here would, of course, to tie in the mythologies of various deities more closely. We already know Iomedae was once Aroden's servitor before rising to absorb most of his remaining faithful once she ascended. We also know that Asmodeus once had a brother before he slew him and fell to become the God of all Devils.

I've already considered adding the cosmology from Green Ronin's "Book of the Righteous" to Golarion, tying the Golarion deities to it's cosmology in different ways. I also like Selk's suggestions of tying some of the gods to common themes as "Pantheons" fabricated by followers finding connections between the deities. And with the Order of the Godclaw, there's actually in-world precedent. Rather then break the rules, I think such an approach just adds another layer of depth to the setting.


besides sand point already mentioned I'n the thread back I'n may I think there are other examples of deities worshiped as groups. we did a module it might have been crypt of the ever flame I'm nitvsure z( we did one session then the dm got called by rl) but I remember I'n the village the church had bits for three deities. erastil and two others. the priest taking care of it though was a cleric of erastil though.


What, no talk of cleric necromancers in bringing this ole thread back to life, harumph! :)

On a serious note:

To me, clerics have always had *one* deity because it was not just their flavor but their drawback as well. While the god you worship helps define you- if you stray from the path they "yank your charter" so to speak. Its the carrot and the stick approach. Carrot for good, swat on the butt for being bad.

If you enlarge their focus to a pantheon or even a small group of gods away from the singular approach then they lose alot of that flavor. What they should be doing becomes alot more broad which means what they shouldn't be doing become alot more narrow.

God X is for A and against B. But if you are going for gods LMNOP then suddenly you have to break all of their "againsts" or at least one of them is still funneling you power. Unless of course you consolidate the group into one "for" and one "against".. but in that case all you've really done is given lip service to "pantheon" by treating it as a single deity, mechanically.

My own personal opinion on it: You can give lip service to a multitude of things but that isn't the same as worshipping any of them. Worship is trying to put that figure above yourself and to model yourself after them. It would be very difficult if not impossible to do that to an entire pantheon simply because different gods are responsible for different things meaning.. well, you'd have to be devoted to *everything* they all stood for and *against* everything they were against. That would be a tall order indeed.
Giving a sentence to Desna before travel or to Asmodeas before a contract is one thing- but modeling your life after one of them and trying to further their goals to the best of your ability is quite another.

-S

Sczarni

Selgard wrote:


To me, clerics have always had *one* deity because it was not just their flavor but their drawback as well. While the god you worship helps define you- if you stray from the path they "yank your charter" so to speak. Its the carrot and the stick approach. Carrot for good, swat on the butt for being bad.

-S

This - I'll go one step further. Clerics don't get spells for worshiping a god. As the clerics in the multi-churches mentioned lead the masses in worship of multiple gods, but only get spells from one. Instead they get their spells from the favoritism they show to their chosen god. If you just got spells for worshiping a god, then my fighter who has forced a party to leave a dungeon crawl to get to church on time would be casting divine spells (really got nasty once he found other religions that worshiped on different days and was going to church sun-wed and sat, or equivalents thereof).

it isn't that they worship a god, its that they devote their lives to this particular god that gives them the spells. You could make a similar distinction between a normal soldier, and Joan of Arc.


Yay thread necromancy. A few things here.

Lonewolf, golarion does indeed have a Pantheon, the big twenty are it. They may have been part of different Pantheons at some point, but are now part of a larger Pantheon, mostly do the trade and the spread of people across Golarion.

Mojorat, yes Golarion is a world where more then one god is worship and clerics of small communities do hold service for more then one god. However he is only the cleric of one god, who is simply tending the needs of his community.

Nothing says he can not hold respect for other gods, but his god is one he holds higher then the others, one he sees as the best match for himself and feels a connection to. Indeed he does have such a connection as only one god grants spells to any cleric.

On Golarion you must have a god to be a cleric, and gods do not share clerics.

After all why would you invest holy power in someone who is not devoted to you?

Silver Crusade

Mojorat wrote:
besides sand point already mentioned I'n the thread back I'n may I think there are other examples of deities worshiped as groups. we did a module it might have been crypt of the ever flame I'm nitvsure z( we did one session then the dm got called by rl) but I remember I'n the village the church had bits for three deities. erastil and two others. the priest taking care of it though was a cleric of erastil though.

Korvosa has the Pantheon of the Many, a temple that maintains shrines for all of the accepted gods in town who don't have a temple of their own in the city.

Then there are the janiforms like Shimye-Magalla(Desna + Gozreh).


I don't mind that clerics are over all more focused in their worship -- after all they get power straight from a god in most cases. But I feel having something available for a lay person, or having an archtype or something for a pantheistic cleric that might not get the full benefits of a cleric worshiping a single god (but gains a few other benefits as instead) would be fine.

If I was playing a cleric of a pantheon I would expect there would be some general rules of conduct, and that I wouldn't get everything that a cleric that was focused more on one god would get.

Perhaps such a pantheon could be "good" gods and the only domain available to a pantheistic cleric would be the "good" domain.


That is the role the Oracle fills. They are clerics of many gods.

Dark Archive

Poor James has his hands full trying to stomp them out.

First the Godclaw, in the Campaign Setting, then Gods & Magic, with the elven and dwarven pantheists, then Shimye-whatever, and now the Orcish pantheon, in Orcs of Golarion. The suggestions that the followers of Diabolism worship the arch-devils collectively, and that annoying 's' on the end of 'Great Old Ones.'

(Ooh, that last one's got potential. Oracles of That Which Sings in the Void Between the Stars? Individual Clerics for Yog-Sothoth, Shub-Niggurath and Azathoth? Not just 'yes,' but '*hell yes!*')

I already spat out an Oracle of Order for the Godclaw, and one of Omens for the Harbinger nutters who are trying to restore the Age of Prophecy, but since we've been told on multiple occasions that the Oracle was designed to handle 'clerics' of non-gods, pantheons and / or philosophies, it would totally support that assertion if there actually were Oracle Mysteries appropriate for followers of Diabolism, the Green Faith, the Prophecies of the Kalistrade, the Whispering Way and / or the Great Old Ones. (And, obviously, such Mysteries wouldn't have appeared in the APG, a setting-neutral book, so this isn't a passive driveby!)

Doh. I just made work for myself, didn't I? :)

Green Faith can probably get by with Nature, and, while Bones isn't particularly well-suited to the ethos and goals of the Whispering Way, it's at least a temporary fix.

That leaves Diabolism, the Prophecies of the Kalistocracy (which might not be worthy of an Oracle Mystery yet, perhaps they have to settle for adepts and allied Abadarites?) and the Great Old Ones.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
That is the role the Oracle fills. They are clerics of many gods.

Actually they are the "clerics" of universal concepts -- Gods need not apply.

But yeah they can fill the role.


Abraham spalding wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
That is the role the Oracle fills. They are clerics of many gods.

Actually they are the "clerics" of universal concepts -- Gods need not apply.

But yeah they can fill the role.

No they do fill that role. In Golarion any way.

Dark Archive

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
But yeah they can fill the role.
No they do fill that role. In Golarion any way.

Or, at least they will fill that role, in Golarion, once someone writes up Great Old Ones, Godclaw, Dwarven Pantheon, Elven Pantheon, Diabolism, Kalistocracy, etc. appropriate Mysteries. :)

As far as I know, there are no setting-specific Mysteries yet published, so it's a neat idea, but not yet mechanically supported.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
That is the role the Oracle fills. They are clerics of many gods.

Actually they are the "clerics" of universal concepts -- Gods need not apply.

But yeah they can fill the role.

No they do fill that role. In Golarion any way.

Actually I still see plenty that states they do not fill that role by default -- including the Iconic Oracle that doesn't worship any god at all.


The issue is most of those are not faiths, and are filled by clerics as it stands now. The elves can have clerics as can dwarves. We b]Know[/b] The god claw have clerics of all the gods whose teaching make up the order.

The philosophies are not faiths, but do include parts and faiths of some gods. But they are not faiths in the way you are using them. They do not have churches or temples unless those are also temples of one of the gods who are friendly to the Philosophy.

Dark Archive

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
The issue is most of those are not faiths, and are filled by clerics as it stands now. The elves can have clerics as can dwarves. We know The god claw have clerics of all the gods whose teaching make up the order.

James has closed that door, opened in the original Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting.

The new Inner Sea World Guide no longer lists the domains available for the Godclaw clerics, and when I brought it up in the sub-Domains thread, I got the 'that's what Oracles are for' reply (which prompted me to offer up an Oracle of Justice/Order, to fill that void, since the APG Mysteries don't terribly well suit the aims of the Godclaw Hellknights).

Liberty's Edge

Okay, no offense intended to anyone, but the "No, Clerics don't work that way" bit seems downright arbitrary. I've always operated out of the assumption "The magic comes from True Faith, not getting plugged into some Entity's Power Supply". But then I've usually preferred leaving the status of actual deities vague, like Eberron did.

But if that's how the Inner Seas roll, then I guess that's how they roll.


Lonewolf..

*every* campaign setting is absolutely crammed full of arbitrary decisions. That is why the *core* allows you to worship an ideal while Golarion doesn't. The rules for Golarion are narrower than the full core.
The same is true of any and every Campaign setting in existence- whether Bob the local DM's, or Spelljammer or Eberron or Darksun or FR or .. well, all of them.

The core rules are very broad and then individual campaign settings change them to invoke the feel and flavor that the writer/creator wants for the campaign setting. It is part of what makes each setting different and distinct from each other.

So yeah- "clerics in Golarion must worship one god" *is* arbitrary. Just as arbitrary as the rest of the campaign setting. :)

-S


I like the idea of having more interesting, organic pantheons too.

I especially liked Selk's post earlier in this thread that divided the gods up into more likely coherent pantheons - like Sarenrae is her own deal, not part of the Arodenite pantheon, for example.

All this helps those of us that like worldcrafting have an idea what gods are seen as part of the predominant society's mores, which are a "minority religion", etc. There are some interesting bits like this in the Campaign Setting, like how Nidal tends to be institutionalized Zon-Kuthonism and it's the religion of Desna that's the main minority/opposition religion.

I would never force a cleric to take one specific god if they wanted to do a pantheon. As I ask myself "why would I even consider doing that," I can't come up with a good answer. A guy wants to have stole embroidered with a batch of holy symbols, great.

Of course this is from the guy who authored the Church of the Seven Faiths for the Yeomanry League in Living Greyhawk, so clearly I'm into that sort of thing.

Liberty's Edge

I guess where I was going with the Pantheon deal, is that in real-world mythologies, gods tend to congregate into Pantheons of some sort: extended families, multiple facets of the same deity, political alliances, hierarchies, bureaucracies... Gods usually don't just stand out on their own, unless they're a monotheism.

Dark Archive

lonewolf23k wrote:
I guess where I was going with the Pantheon deal, is that in real-world mythologies, gods tend to congregate into Pantheons of some sort: extended families, multiple facets of the same deity, political alliances, hierarchies, bureaucracies... Gods usually don't just stand out on their own, unless they're a monotheism.

The lack of interconnectedness between the various Golarion gods, with only Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon having a familial relationship, is a bit odd, from a real-world mythology stance, but in keeping with D&D tradition. The Realms gods also came off as a bit of a hodgepodge (quite literally, in the case of dieties plundered from Finnish myth or whatever).

The Suel pantheon, in Greyhawk, were occasionally related in some way, but the other dieties, again, kind of came and went.

Torag is the only diety of the 'big 20' who has any sort of family or spouse, with Erastil, the patron of comunity, marriage and family, so quick to chide others for not settling down, perversely being a childless loner...

Of the 'big 20,' I'd ship Desna & Gozreh and Aroden & Iomedae (well, in the past, anyway), but the others don't seem like they'd play well with each other. (Although I could see Lamashtu being quite interested in birthing a new Spawn of Rovagug, if he weren't all tied up at the moment.)

There's an odd relationship between Groetus and Pharasma, but certainly not a romantic one. Similarly, Sivanah and Razmir have something going on, but he's not really a god, and there's no question that she's not up to something. (Sivanah's middle name is 'up to something.')

Some sort of unpublicized connection between Pharasma & Achaekek, or Besmara & Gozreh, or Hanspur & Gyronna, could be interesting...

Liberty's Edge

You know what would help? Adding some myths to Golarion, giving some of those deities much needed connections, even if it's as simple as "Dahak, Lamashtu and Droskar hold a contest of trickery, only for the three of them to be played as fools by Calistria". They wouldn't even need to be consistent with one another, since real-world mythology often isn't.

Another thing that might help is giving the gods a Neutral gathering place, like Discworld's "Dunmanifestin", where they can gather and observe and discuss events on Golarion, or even play games.


lonewolf23k wrote:

You know what would help? Adding some myths to Golarion, giving some of those deities much needed connections, even if it's as simple as "Dahak, Lamashtu and Droskar hold a contest of trickery, only for the three of them to be played as fools by Calistria". They wouldn't even need to be consistent with one another, since real-world mythology often isn't.

There was a hint of such myths in the Calistria entry in the Campaign book...where it states that every god has been intimately linked with her....either just though her own religion or others.

Also in the Cayden Cailean entry the myth is that Calistria rebuffed his advances saying no mortal can survive a night of passion with her....so he took the starstone test to become a god.

There is nothing stopping you from coming up with more detailed myths about the gods...actualy one of things I love about playing a cleric (or even just a relgionous person) is creating these myths and rites and such.


Nothing is stopping you from actually building a familial connection between the gods. They are/were a race/family of entities that realized that worship grants power. What they didn't realize is that same worship enforces a pattern on them.

The Book of the Damned, Volume 1, has something liek this, where Asmodeus and another come from. I'd add Rovagug as one of these elemental or prime forces.

The you can have the "old" gods and "new" gods, as well as the Demon Lords, all primary creatures that have now aligned themselves with some source of power (souls), theough damnation or worship.

Dark Archive

Asmodeus, the ascended Archdevil, pretty much already leads a 'pantheon' of eight other Archdevils, and even has it's own composite faith of Diabolism.

Lamashtu, the ascended Demon Lord, doesn't have that level of influence over her fellow Demon Lords, so she might think of herself as the head of a demonic pantheon, but her ducks refuse to get in a row...

Sarenrae, the ascended Angel, is somewhere in the middle of lawful Asmodeus and chaotic Lamashtu, making it likely that *some* (but not all) of her fellow Empyreals look up to her as an unofficial head of their 'pantheon' of angels, archons and azata.

The only Empyreals we know of are Andoletta, Arshea, Korada, Ragathiel, Sinashakti and Valani, but since there are four Daemon Horsemen, eight Archdevils and thirty-one Demon Lords, it would make sense that the angels, archons and azata would have more than six Empyreals to represent them. An entire family of angelic Empyreals representing stuff like weather & agriculture or artifice, arts & craft or community, trade & travel, could follow Sarenrae's lead, while the archons and azatas more or less respect her as the one who 'made the big time,' but don't necessarily consider her *their* boss (particularly the independent-minded azatas).

The dozen Demon Lords revered by the Drow might be *loosely* 'organized' into a pantheon, due to a shared interest. That would be one heck of an Oracle Mystery...

Liberty's Edge

Torag also very distinctly heads the Dwarven Pantheon, which is a real pantheon, and a family.

Shelyn/Zon-Kuthon are already a pantheon of sorts, being brother and sister. Opositional, sure, but many pantheons have that.

Ditto Lamashtu and Desna in an oppositional sort of way. They both bear legacies from a dead older god whom Lamashtu murdered (she ate his dominion over animals, but he willed his power over travel to Desna), and of course utterly despise each other.

Sarenrae, aside from aving the Empyreal Lords, is opposed very directly to Rovagug and Asmodeus, both of which feature prominently as enemies in her faith.

Abadar, Cayden Cailean, Iomedae, Shelyn, Erastil, Sarenrae, and Torag compose a very informal sort of "good guys" Pantheon, all having extensive dealings with each other and, with a few exceptions (Torag and Sarenrae being a notable one) all get along pretty well. This is interesting, because that's not the Good-aligned deities. It includes Abadar but leaves out Desna (who most of them get along with, but is kinda distant). Making it a real grouping, not just one of convenience.

As for mythology, check out the dieties sections in the Adventure Paths, many of them have extensive details on both how the God in question interacts with the others and several myths regarding them. The above story involving Desna and Lamashtu is an example. Or the stories of their Heralds, who are sometimes fun, and always reveal something about the diety. I particularly like Cayden Cailean's herald, Thais.

Silver Crusade

Adding to the above on Desna being an outsider even amongst the good gods:

It's been stated that Shelyn, Sarenrae, and Cayden Cailean are the only ones really close to her, besides that god of animals that Lamashtu whacked.

And then there's the incident covered in Book of the Damned 2, where Desna went berzerkotron on some demon lord for crossing the line one too many times, killed her, stirred up a huge hornet's nest in the Abyss which nearly united a bunch of demon lords against her, and put Desna on the outs with a bunch of the good-aligned gods. IIRC, the only ones who stepped up to defend her were Shelyn, Sarenrae, and Calistria. It was never stated outright, but maybe gender politics played into it, maybe not. I really need to re-read that bit to make sure I've got it right.

On the matter of Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon, don't forget their dad.(poor guy...)

I really need to double-check on this soon too, but the bit on Asmodeus and his brother Ihys and Sarenrae possibly taking up Ihys' championing of free will is well worth mining as well.

Dark Archive

Set wrote:


The dozen Demon Lords revered by the Drow might be *loosely* 'organized' into a pantheon, due to a shared interest. That would be one heck of an Oracle Mystery...

It would. Write it up please.

Dark Archive

baron arem heshvaun wrote:
Set wrote:
The dozen Demon Lords revered by the Drow might be *loosely* 'organized' into a pantheon, due to a shared interest. That would be one heck of an Oracle Mystery...
It would. Write it up please.

It's on the 'to-do' list.

Note that there are things on the 'to-do' list for Starfleet Battles, Trinity and AD&D 2nd edition that I never got around to finishing, so don't hold your breath... :)

Shadow Lodge

Personally, I feel that the Cleric's ties to a (single) deity is pretty boring and a weakness of the d20 game. Just ditching it, (but keeping the rules for alignment and proper action within your divine sphere) are infinitely better in all ways. But that's just me.

Dark Archive

Beckett wrote:
Personally, I feel that the Cleric's ties to a (single) deity is pretty boring and a weakness of the d20 game.

It's a limitation of some settings, but the core rules of 3.X and PF allow for clerics without a singular diety, such as pantheists, or followers of a particular ethos or philosophy.

Even then, it's only a real limitation for Organized Play. There's nothing stopping me from playing a Cleric of the Godclaw at home, and, thanks to the Campaign Setting, I've even got the Domains for such a critter (p 92, Glory, Law, Protection, Strength, War).

On the other hand, I've never been impressed with how poorly defined any such divine credos / tenets are fleshed out. Paladins suffer from occasionally controversial interpretations of what their 'codes' allow or don't allow, but few, if any, sources seem to care that Clerics are *supposed* to similarly follow the ethos of their dieties, and many dieties have no real guidelines for what is and isn't acceptable.

It's easy to give Pharasma crap for limiting her clerics spell list by forbidding access to undead creating spells, despite being non-good, and yet, really, *all* dieties should probably have some unexpected and potentially controversial limitations or restrictions on their clerics behavior.

On the other, other hand, writing up such 'codes of conduct' for the bajillion gods that end up proliferating the various settings, would be a colossal pain in the butt...

I remember thinking something similar when Relics & Rituals came out with it's glorious Summoner Prestige Class, that it seemed very strongly defined and potentially limited by the nature of it's Pact, and then, the space where the Pact was to be defined was apparently cut from the book to make room for the artwork.

I kinda feel the same way about the Eidolon and the Witch Patrons. There's a huge amount of potentially important information missing there, information that might stave off questions about what happens to an Eidolon that is dismissed while poisoned or diseased or suffering a bleed effect. (Does it die on it's home plane and stay dead forever? Buh-bye class feature?) Just as Clerics *should* have some sort of clerical prohibitions / guidance other than 'don't cast spells with an alignment type opposite mine,' Witches Patrons should be something a little more actively a part of a Witches life than 'get these nine bonus spells.'

Like the divine prohibitions, and setting specific restrictions like 'a cleric shall be a union between one mortal and one diety, no more, no less,' Witch Patron / Eidolon / etc. special features should probably remain setting specific, like Godclaw / Kalistocracy oracle mysteries or whatever.

Shadow Lodge

And I have absolutely no issue with Clerics being limited by their deeper faith and belief. Its just the manditory deity thing I hate

Silver Crusade

This thread has been an interesting read.

There are a number of particularities that are I think fairly unique to the 3.5 D&D game which has grown into the Pathfinder game.

First there is a division between “divine magic” and “Arcane magic”. There is a division between Devils and Demons.

The way a Wizard has to go to his spell book, “cram” an arcane formulae, which includes odd materiel components like sulfur, bat guano, gum Arabic, sand, a glass rod and some fur etc, Arcane words (usually Latin) and “somatic gestures” which might be the tracing of glyphs or runes in the air, and Poof! He casts a spell.

The spell is then gone from his mind, the magical energy expended, and the next day (after 8 hours of rest to refresh himself) he has to go back to his book and then “Cram” often the same spell back into his mind.

I could probably think of lots of other examples.

So this brings us to the cleric. He serves and worships a particular deity and then is given his divine spells or miracles, etc to use on his deity’s behalf. i suppose he is limited to one deity because of game mechanics.

This is the way i see things:

I think that in a larger community, a city perhaps, you would be most likely to find clerics and temples of many faiths. Each of these varied deities would have interests in different parts of people’s lives.

As you leave the cities, and head into smaller and smaller communities, you would probably only have one cleric. Now that cleric while still being devoted to one deity, through his “ Knowledge religion” would be able to council his parish when it came to a variety of problems.

I could see Father Zanthos, in sand point, although he worships and serves Desna primarily might lead his flock in a prayer to Erastil for a good harvest, Gorzeth for the right amount of rain, and to Pharasma, when a child is born, or someone has died. In my opinion leading a flock in prayers to a variety of deities would not be upsetting to Desna, except perhaps if Father Zantos took an interest in Lamashu or Pazzuzu or somebody like that.

I would guess for a more pantheistic approach you have the oracle.

I suppose we all have our likes and dislikes. I for one strongly dislike the idea of getting divine spells and abilities through the veneration of an ideal. I think if the gods on the whole represent various ideals and concepts, then why venerate the ideal, may as well not have a deity then. I much prefer having something venerated, weather nature as in “mother nature”, a deity, entity, ancestors, spirits, whatever its much more interesting to have some sort of personality on the other end…. just not plain vanilla good, or evil or order.

Just my two cents.

Liberty's Edge

Set wrote:

It's a limitation of some settings, but the core rules of 3.X and PF allow for clerics without a singular diety, such as pantheists, or followers of a particular ethos or philosophy.

Indeed, in Eberron a cleric could follow the Sovereign Host pantheon as a whole instead of any of the individual deities, in terms of rules it was as simple as assigning an alignment and domains to the Pantheon as a whole.

I must admit, I never really liked the long list of gods seen in the likes of FR and Golarion, it makes it seem (at least to me) like everyone in the world has the same overall belief in gods just differing by which they favour. Eberron's religions feel different - the Silver Flame seems something completely seperate from the Sovereign Host for example.

When I was re-reading the Pathfinder Gazateer I was thinking about trying to put the gods into their own "pantheons", but only got as far as "Ascended Starstone Mortals" for Aroden, Cayden Cailean, Iomedae & Norgorber. Collecting together deities in categories can help IMHO to give each group its own feel and give more of a shape to the gods than a simple long list.

Dark Archive

DigitalMage wrote:
I was thinking about trying to put the gods into their own "pantheons", but only got as far as "Ascended Starstone Mortals" for Aroden, Cayden Cailean, Iomedae & Norgorber.

I kind of sub-grouped them in my head, as well, with the ascended Starstone mortals being seen as the latest batch of upstarts, along with the other ascended mortals (Irori, Nethys, Urgathoa, who didn't need no newfangled Starstone, and had to walk uphill to divinity, goshdurnit!) and the ascended celestials (Sarenrae, Asmodeus, Lamashtu, some of whom have been around for ages), being more or less considered different levels of 'new blood' by the old guard who've, as far as anyone remembers, have 'always been' gods (Abadar, Calistria, Desna, Gozreh, Pharasma, Torag).

Then again, even Desna was 'new blood' to Curchannos, at one time.

Liberty's Edge

Set wrote:


I kind of sub-grouped them in my head, as well, with the ascended Starstone mortals being seen as the latest batch of upstarts, along with the other ascended mortals (Irori, Nethys, Urgathoa, who didn't need no newfangled Starstone, and had to walk uphill to divinity, goshdurnit!)

I'm with you so far.

Set wrote:
and the ascended celestials (Sarenrae, Asmodeus, Lamashtu, some of whom have been around for ages),

And here we disagree. Asmodeus isn't an ascended celestial in Golarion. Indeed, according to his own church, he's the oldest God, and possibly the first being in existence. And nobody contradicts him, in fact, some of Sarenrae's myths support the idea.

And Lamashtu, while she is ascended, did so so long ago she may be older than some 'original' dieties.

Set wrote:
being more or less considered different levels of 'new blood' by the old guard who've, as far as anyone remembers, have 'always been' gods (Abadar, Calistria, Desna, Gozreh, Pharasma, Torag).

Erastil is clearly one of the oldest, and regards Desna as very old, so that puts her near the top. He regards Abadar as younger, and Torag as a peer, so those are probably accurate, too.

Set wrote:
Then again, even Desna was 'new blood' to Curchannos, at one time.

True enough, but it seems like almost all of the things older than her are nearly gone.

Okay, so, my chronology would go something like this:

Asmodeus
Desna, Lamashtu,
Gozreh, Calistria, Pharasma,
Erastil, Torag,
Shelyn, Zon Kuthon, Sarenrae,
Abadar, Gorum,
Nethys,
Urgathoa (? I'm really not sure whether she's before or after Nethys and Irori, she's in there somewhere, though)
Irori
Cayden Cailean
Norgorber
Iomedae

Rovagug is from outside, and thus not precisely part of the whole thing, but I'd put his invasion uin the same category as sarenrae (as he was her reason for rising to godhood).

Shadow Lodge

I would just rather have more Cleric options, like a follower of the dualality, a primitive religious priest/shaman type, a good necromancer Cleric, and other things you can't do. Not because it doesn't make sense or because its a power issue, but because the rules say no.

I like both as a player and DM, to have some moral roleplaying issues. But the Cleric, hands down more than any class, even Paladin, just screws that up. And unlike with other issues, it is not a players lack of creativity, but instead rules that have noclose appoximate anywhere else in the game.

Liberty's Edge

Revisiting this concept a bit, I did consider another option: a massive "Church of the Gods" organization, loosely based on the Great Church from Book of the Righteous and on Eberron's Sovereign Host. The Pantheon Church would promote a philosophy of honoring all the benevolent (non-evil) deities, especially the Good ones.

What would make the Pantheon Church a unique concept is that it would've been founded by Mortals, not the gods themselves, as a way of centralizing religious belief in the growing centralized empires; I could see Taldor having promoted such a concept as it grew in power, giving all the Imperial citizens a single place to worship, while still honoring all the gods.

The Pantheon Church would have a lay priesthood consisting of Commoners, Experts and the occasional Aristocrat or Adept, but on occasion a Cleric would arise. Unlike the lay priesthood, however, a Cleric would be chosen by a single God of the Pantheon, and would thus be named "The Select".

The average Lay priest would be the ones dedicated to day-to-day temple activities and weekly masses. The Clerics would be Agents of the Church, sent forth by their Patron God to perform a Holy Quest of some sort, usually fighting evil or promoting their godly agenda, or aiding an allied deity.

The various Golarion gods (especially the Chaotic ones) would still have their own separate temples and "personal" priesthoods, but would still consider the Pantheon Church conveniant enough, even if it's not completely under their direct control.

So yeah, consider this an optional concept for allowing "Pantheon Churches" while preserving the Canon concept of "Clerics only have 1 God".


Beckett wrote:
I would just rather have more Cleric options, like a follower of the dualality, a primitive religious priest/shaman type, a good necromancer Cleric, and other things you can't do. Not because it doesn't make sense or because its a power issue, but because the rules say no.

Ok...you can by the rules. Except for the good necromancer cleric which is because Pathfinder has rules it as all evil in general, but that easily ignorable. I don't get what is preventing you from doing so.

Beckett wrote:
I like both as a player and DM, to have some moral roleplaying issues. But the Cleric, hands down more than any class, even Paladin, just screws that up. And unlike with other issues, it is not a players lack of creativity, but instead rules that have noclose appoximate anywhere else in the game.

And I really don't get how a cleric or a paladin gets in the way of morale RPing issues. As in my game it has never has. Can you give a example of what you mean?

Liberty's Edge

Coming back to this thread, because I hit upon another idea after reading through "Faiths of Balance". Looked through the Green Faith entry, then reread the section on Philosophies in the "Inner Sea World Guide", and I started to think about it.

The concept is this: The Great Pantheon is a philosophical concept, wherein the mortals gather to pay homage to all the (non-evil) Deities. The average Non-Cleric Avistan farmer isn't likely to devote himself to a single deity; he may say a prayer to ask Gozreh for rain for his crops, say a prayer of thanks to Erastil on a good harvest, beg Pharasma to show mercy to his wife and child while she's giving birth, and later on toast to Cayden Cailean to celebrate the new arrival.

As a result, the Great Pantheon allows the average person the convenience of one nearby location (a local shrine or Pantheon temple) to say a prayer to all the gods, while still giving actual Clerics a place in the world. Non-Clerics don't devote themselves to a single deity. Clerics do, and serve as intercessionists for their Patron deity.


Because someone else (lone wolf) necro-fu'd this back into existence, I figured I'd finally weigh in, too. As often the case, I find that I write/type/speak/etc waaaaaaayyyyyyy too much, so here's the rundown: spoiler tags are for your convenience. Use them to read what you want, and ignore the rest.

First: lonewolf, excellent job. You've shown many ways to work within the framework of Golarion's specific rule system as well as create the Pantheon-like concept.

on the various archetypes in-game, and a cleric's limitations (Beckett and John Kretzer):
Beckett wrote:
...a follower of the dualality...

Golarion: cleric of Shemyi-Magalla

CORE: okay, that's fine as is
Beckett wrote:
... a primitive religious priest/shaman type

Golarion: adept, druid, or oracle all fit this bill (as does bard and witch, actually)

CORE: the same
Beckett wrote:
...a good necromancer Cleric...
John Kretzer wrote:
Ok...you can by the rules. Except for the good necromancer cleric which is because Pathfinder has rules it as all evil in general, but that easily ignorable. I don't get what is preventing you from doing so.

Actually, although the "cleric" class can't support a good necromancer (at least of the undead-crafting persuasion), an oracle can. With the Juju mystery (found in Serpent's Skull Adventure Path) you can actually make non-evil versions of zombies (called Juju Zombies, talked about, although couched in terms of evil, in Beastiary 2) with a non-evil version of the animate dead spell (and, I think, higher level variants thereof). So, you know, this archetype is now supported as well. The other problem with a cleric being a good necromancer, is finding a good deity who likes Urgathoa. The only one I can think of is Calistria... and she's not, precisely, what you could call "good".

The thing to really get around is the idea that classes must be cleric to be 'divine'. Bards and witches are the only non-"divine" classes to gain any sort of healing magic. They are useful for simulating non-standard (i.e. not-cleric) "priests" of various kinds as a direct result. Druids and oracles are both pretty much built for this exact role. These are the sources of archetypes for use in non-standard ways.

Beckett wrote:
I like both as a player and DM, to have some moral roleplaying issues. But the Cleric, hands down more than any class, even Paladin, just screws that up. And unlike with other issues, it is not a players lack of creativity, but instead rules that have noclose appoximate anywhere else in the game.
John Kretzer wrote:
And I really don't get how a cleric or a paladin gets in the way of morale RPing issues. As in my game it has never has. Can you give a example of what you mean?

Easily, actually - the cleric and paladin both come with (either implied or discretely stated) codes that must be followed by RAW in order to maintain their integrity (and continue in their class). While this is doesn't actually hinder RPing of moral issues, it does greatly hinder RPing of certain moral archetypes that aren't viable with our Western thought structure and practice. For example, neither Buddhism nor Hinduism work (mentally, morally) the way Western religions do: even though many Western religions work differently, they share some similarities and presumptions that both of these Eastern philosophies lack, and vice-verse (I was pretty sure this was "vice-versa", but spell check doesn't like that).

The d20 system uses some of those core presumptions that really fly in the face of Eastern philosophies. It makes sense - it was developed by Westerners which had (consciously or not) underlying Western philosophies. That said, it doesn't work too well (the alignment system, and discrete, permanent deities, especially) when held up to Eastern elements.

Note, this isn't me claiming that d20 religious systems work like Western religious beliefs - they don't. However certain world-view presumptions were made (difficult to articulate in internet chatter) and rules were made around them that hamper moral RP action based off of completely different world-view assumptions. (It's also worth noting that d20 religious system actually violates several basics of Western religious thought, too, and actually leans closer to Eastern in that way, but really this is beyond this particular conversation).

All that said, it makes a certain amount of sense that: if it doesn't work for your game, change it. Most games will flow one way (RAW, or at least more-or-less RAI), but yours can follow another. A friend of mine ran a game where Paladins had to be lawful good... too their own religion (which may or may not have been LG itself). They detected paladins of other religions as "evil" - aka, opposed to their deity. One thing that bothers me is the over-specificity of the Cavaliers' various orders. Especially the Order of the Cockatrice. Oof, I'd hate to play a game with one of them. But, with those underlying assumptions in place, and the game mechanics of the class, you could tweak the descriptions and concepts for your own game. This is normal and expected. In RAW Golarion, however, it's one-deity-per-cleric and oracles-as-catch-alls.

Mikaze and politics:
Mikaze wrote:
And then there's the incident covered in Book of the Damned 2, where Desna went berzerkotron on some demon lord for crossing the line one too many times, killed her, stirred up a huge hornet's nest in the Abyss which nearly united a bunch of demon lords against her, and put Desna on the outs with a bunch of the good-aligned gods. IIRC, the only ones who stepped up to defend her were Shelyn, Sarenrae, and Calistria. It was never stated outright, but maybe gender politics played into it, maybe not. I really need to re-read that bit to make sure I've got it right.

Mikaze, did you ever find out if this is correct? Because that's... pretty odd. One possibility for Cayden not being there, is it could have happened before he was a deity.

And the longest...

Deadmanwalking wrote:


deity list:
Asmodeus
Desna, Lamashtu,
Gozreh, Calistria, Pharasma,
Erastil, Torag,
Shelyn, Zon Kuthon, Sarenrae,
Abadar, Gorum,
Nethys,
Urgathoa (? I'm really not sure whether she's before or after Nethys and Irori, she's in there somewhere, though)
Irori
Cayden Cailean
Norgorber
Iomedae

While an impressive work, I'm pretty sure that's at least a little bit off. Adding in some now-deceased deities {noted by brackets like so}, just for historical reference (this is not an exhaustive list), I'm going to make an altered list and explain the reasoning behind it. One thing it's important to note is the distinction between the deities' beginning of existence and their ascension.

1) In the beginning (Age Before Ages <Age of Creation>:
Asmodeus, {Curchanus}, Groteus, {Ihys}*, Pharasma, Rovagug
Reasons: Part and parcel of all of existence: Asmodeus forging the contract of creation, Ihys his brother (slain by Asmodeus)*, and Pharasma part and parcel of the birth (and death) of all things, including gods and existance, and will be the last thing Groteus does before unmaking everything. Rovagug is spoken of as if he was at the beginning of all creation as well (although this could just be exaggeration or some sort of temporal fugue effect from scholars looking so far back at the past that "time" kind of loses its meaning for them). It seems likely that it would be somewhere around here that some of the Eldest and the Great Old Ones would come into being. Curchanus is here because he predates...

2) Shortly** after the beginning (Age Before Ages <Age of Creation>:
Desna, Lamashtu, Sarenrae
Reasons:
Still part-and-parcel of the creation of the physical universe, Desna and Sarenrae are responsible for crafting stars and placing them in the sky. Sarenrae was just an advanced outsider, and that's a distinct possibility for Desna as well. If Lamashtu is truly as old as you have here (I am unsure, as she is a demon - basically the most recently created race in the universe), she wouldn't be a deity yet. I'd say she didn't ascend until after...

3) Creation of Golarion (Age Before Ages <Age of Creation>:
Abadar, Calistria, Torag
Reasons: Torag is known for being around at the beginning of the world (which, as we've seen, isn't necessarily the beginning of creation). Dwarves and elves are both ancient beyond belief, and it's difficult to tell who came first (although elves were clearly on the surface first. As Calistria is the patron of the elves (and possibly originally from another planet that may, in fact, predate Golarion) it's debatable who came first. Abadar, regardless, is ancient beyond belief. Although he's a deity of civilization he exists in Axis and would have before "civilization" necessarily came to the world. As the owner (and maker?) of the First Vault (containing "perfect" versions of just about everything, it would stand to reason that he's old beyond belief. Further, he's old enough to have played a critical role in the war against Rovagug. It is possible that he's part of the next set, however.

4) Golarion's Origin (Age Before Ages <Age of Creation>:
Erastil, Gozreh
Reason: These two are part and parcel of the natural world of Golarion - which only came into existence due to the machinations of other deities. Nonetheless, both substantially predate the Age of Darkness, and both are unfathomably old. Also, Erastil was an important factor in bringing Avistan out of complete barbarism. It would be somewhere around here that Rovagug was imprisoned, and Sarenrae would have ascended.

~Age of Serpents happens here. It's probable that this is when Lamashtu ascended.~

5) Pre-Earthfall/Age of Darkness (Age Before Ages <Age of Legends>):
Aroden, Shelyn, Thron, Zon Kuthon (and Dou-Bral)
Reason: While Shelyn and Dou-Bral are both Taldan deities (part of the Taldan pantheon [sic!], they clearly predate the Age of Darkness, as the legends of Zon-Kuthon rely upon that event, and Shelyn's depictions can be found in ancient Azlanti works (without the trident). It is unclear what, precisely, happened to their mother (whose portfolio Dou-Bral and Shelyn apparently shared after their mother's death). After Dou-Bral and Shelyn argued, the former went away, returned as Zon-Kuthon, captured/destroyed/corrupted Thron, and with his new herald (his former father Thron) was banished from Golarion "for as long as the sun hung in the sky" by Abadar (it was, in fact, a bargain made with Abadar that Abadar never thought would come to pass). This was fulfilled by the Age of Darkness, and Zon-Kuthon came back, blah, blah, blah, stuff. Aroden was obviously Azlanti - he was the last (known) living Azlanti by a few thousand years. Obviously immortal before achieving ascension, it is unclear when or how he gained his immortality - he could have been ancient when the Azlanti Empire first became an independent empire. Nonetheless, it's generally considered that he's not as old as any of the others listed above him, or even Shelyn or Dou-Bral (although he's possibly older than Zon-Kuthon).

6) Post-Earthfall (the Age of Darkness):
Gorum
Reason: generally, it's presumed that he came into being in the Age of Darkness when humans and orcs first warred against one another. His age is actually pretty straight-forward!

~The Age of Anguish happens here.~

7) Post-Age of Darkness (the Age of Destiny):

Irori, Nethys, Urgathoa (these are unspecified as "when", but seem to be after Aroden, so they are here)
Reason: It is known that Nethys was an Osirian God-King at some point, which places him after the age of darkness. Aroden was already around, but it's unclear if Irori and Urgathoa were or not. It does seem, however, that Irori would have been around first, as, in the article on Nethys in Serpent Skull AP, it says that Nethys is very curious as to how, exactly, Irori came to ascend - if Nethys already had his divinity, such curiosity would be pointless, as he'd already know. Nonetheless, Irori seems not to predate Aroden's rise to ascension, as all of the deities who were raised to divinity except Aroden are considered "cheaters" by Irori, indicating that Aroden was probably a deity (and probably already the deity of humanity) when Irori came around. The question of Urgathoa is one to ponder, as she's clearly ancient, but her picture looks vaguely like an Egyption (Osirian) to me, while her physical description makes her sound Azlanti or Chelaxian, to me - one of which definitely could predate Aroden, but neither of which had to predate Aroden. In fact, Urgathoa could have been born in or just before the age of darkness as a mortal (not predating Aroden) and died (and thus ascended) before Aroden. It's a bit murky, however - which would also be explained by the Age of Darkness as no one was really taking any notes at that time. It does seem weird, though, that disease never existed before Urgathoa came back (supposedly). I'd put her significantly older than this, but I really don't have any evidence for this (for or against).

8) Starstone gods (Age of Enthronment):

These are the only deities we have hard facts about their ascension time and order.
Norgorber: The first to pass the Starstone, Norgorber did so in 1983 AR.
Cayden Cailean: The second to pass the test of the Starstone (he did so drunkenly), his ascension was in 2765.
Iomedae: the third, and (so far) last to pass the test of the Starstone, she did so in 3832.

~The Age of Lost Omens (the current age) happens here.~

*I apologize that I don't seem to find him anywhere, although I'm absolutely positive I've read about it. At any rate, here's what I know: apparently Asmodeus killed him with a spear that shattered, leaving one long, gleaming fragment that acts as some sort of artifact-weapon that can stun a god who's hit by it, IIRC.
**This is entirely ambiguous as to what, precisely, "shortly" after means. It could be a few decades, centuries, or a millennium. Perhaps longer. It just happens before anything else does.


Tacticslion wrote:
That post long, slightly erratically worded post.

First: wow, that had some terrible sentences. Man, I over-used "part and parcel" and "beyond belief". Also, I really need to close my (parenthesis). Hey, look, what can I say, I'm exhausted! Babies are wonderful, though! :D

Corrections on how somethings should be written
Ugh, the first entry was terrible for grammar and clarity (although in retrospect, that's kind of appropriate, -ish, for that period of "history").

Tacticslion wrote:


1)... Reasons:
Building Blocks of all (physical?) existence: Asmodeus forged the contract of creation, and Ihys his brother (slain by Asmodeus)* were knownw and admited to be among the oldest. Pharasma is part and parcel of the birth (and death) of all things, including gods and existance, and will be the last thing Groteus interacts with before unmaking everything. Rovagug is spoken of as if he was at the beginning of all creation as well, although this could just be exaggeration or some sort of temporal fugue effect from scholars looking so far back at the past that "time" kind of loses its meaning for them. It seems likely that it would be somewhere around here that some of the Eldest and the Great Old Ones would come into being. Curchanus is here because he predates...

And, while "5)" was accurate in stating they are Taldan deities, that's because Taldor is (effectively) the "inheritor" of Azlanti culture (as much of it as survived the Age of Darkness, anyway). It should be more like...

Tacticslion wrote:


5)... Reasons: As Thron, Shelyn, and Dou-Bral are all Azlanti deities (part of the Azlanti pantheon [sic!]), they clearly...

Part six is slightly misleading. Gorum isn't just presumed to have come from the age of Darkness... he basically says as much, as do most deities.

It occurs only in retrospect that Urgathoa could not have risen in the Age of Enthronement - Osirion was already practicing undeath and mummification rites by that point. Since Urgathoa was the first, she had to predate that significantly. Further, since Zura, the demon lord of vampires, was Azlanti, Urgathoa needs to be older than that - extending as far back as the Age of Serpents. It may very well be that Urgathoa fled to the material while Pharasma was too busy dealing with, say, Rovagug to notice one, lone mortal escaping the Bone Yard. One other facet - I believe Lamashtu was a deity shortly after Rovagug's imprisonment, and might have also come into power during that time. Again, it would make sense - with deities of all kinds coming to early ends because of Rovagug, those who're fighting him have most of their attention focused on annihilating Rovagug (or at least stopping him) rather than the full ramifications of their duties. It'd be strange that Curchanus wasn't with the others, however he might just have gone wandering right after the whole Rovagug debacle and when most deities saw he was gone just presumed he was another one that bit the dust. Even when it was revealed that it was Lamashtu, not Rovagug, the other deities'd probably be exhausted from their battles with Rovagug and wary about taking on another deity so soon... especially one who'd ascended by killing one of them. They were probably testing the waters before a fight, but eventually just dropped it. That might have been part of Desna's disengagement from the other gods, too - none of them went after her mentor's murderer because they were all too tired, licking their wounds, hunting down that bothersome escaped mortal, or whatever else prevented it.

Another thing about that is its likely Lamashtu would have learned her "trick" of being able to destroy deities by overwhelming them by watching Rovagug do it. It would also be interesting symmetry if the rough beast, chaotic evil deity of destruction, were imprisoned and stopped... only to allow two new destructive chaotic evil deities who are made of essences of destruction show up. Another reason why deities would be hesitant to take them on so quickly. So I'd plop both Lamashtu's and Urgathoa's ascension somewhere around the 4) point mark - after Erastil and Gozreh, but before the Age of Serpents. Probably around the same time, actually, as Ydersius rose up, I'm guessing. I'd probably change the number scheme from eight points to nine and place those three in their own segment before the Age of Serpents.

Silver Crusade

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Tacticslion wrote:
Mikaze, did you ever find out if this is correct? Because that's... pretty odd. One possibility for Cayden not being there, is it could have happened before he was a deity.

Just rechecked, the names are right but some assumptions might be off. The stuff that's stated for certain:

Desna is stated as having broken several divine laws to take that demon lord out(and freeing every soul that had been stolen by her in the process) and it did result in a coalition of demon lords rallied against her. That coalition fell apart due to treachery, which many suspect was instigated by a disguised Calistria.

There were far reaching repercussions, and it was Shelyn, Sarenrae, and Calistria's support that allowed Desna to come out of it all intact. It's also noted that all of those goddesses' faithful had been targeted by the now deaded demon lord in the past.

But yeah, this could have been before Cayden's apotheosis as well. No information is given on when it happened, but it seems like ancient history.

I think that's all the info there is on that event, all listed under Aolar's entry in the Dead Demon Lord section of Lords of Chaos.


Mikaze wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
Mikaze, did you ever find out if this is correct? Because that's... pretty odd. One possibility for Cayden not being there, is it could have happened before he was a deity.

Just rechecked, the names are right but some assumptions might be off. The stuff that's stated for certain:

Desna is stated as having broken several divine laws to take that demon lord out(and freeing every soul that had been stolen by her in the process) and it did result in a coalition of demon lords rallied against her. That coalition fell apart due to treachery, which many suspect was instigated by a disguised Calistria.

There were far reaching repercussions, and it was Shelyn, Sarenrae, and Calistria's support that allowed Desna to come out of it all intact. It's also noted that all of those goddesses' faithful had been targeted by the now deaded demon lord in the past.

But yeah, this could have been before Cayden's apotheosis as well. No information is given on when it happened, but it seems like ancient history.

I think that's all the info there is on that event, all listed under Aolar's entry in the Dead Demon Lord section of Lords of Chaos.

Thank you! This is actually really interesting...

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