Ok, so I went to the game last week with my shiny new bard and watched as 2 chain devils tore him limb from limb. This particularly awful display of evil highlighted a major weakness of our party: a lack of battlefield control.
Before I head into all of this, I want to make a few things clear: First, I'm not asking which is better, but instead asking which is better for my group. Secondly, seriously, please don't turn this into a debate about which class is more powerful. Now, with that said, here's what the party is currently running with:
Dwarven Barbarian: Damage, damage, damage. He fancies himself a "battlefield controller" with feats like stand still and lunge, but generally he just hits stuff. Hard.
Elven Fighter: Fighting with a glaive and the feat Short Haft from the PHB2, she's got awesome reach and area control, but like the Barbarian she's a one trick pony: hit stuff hard.
Human Sorcerer (Air Bloodline): A blaster focusing on area of effect spells. This is her first true caster, and she's ignoring a lot of the subtleties of arcane magic. As such, she's not providing *any* utility or buffs to the party.
Changeling Warlock: Another damage dealer, but instead focused on single target ranged attacks. He uses his eldritch glaive every once in a while, as to increase his damage, but all in all he's a glass cannon. He provides some minor utility (an at-will shatter gets us through most locks), but generally sticks to the damage dealing.
NPC Cleric: Run mostly by the DM, I agreed to take the leadership feat to give us access to some grade A healing. Her job is to hang out in the flank and offer much needed healing, but isn't really bringing much else to the table.
So, as you can see, my party has damage dealing covered quite well. What I'm looking for is a character to cover the major gaps of the party: Buffing/Debuffing, Battlefield Control, and Utility casting. I'm torn between druid and wizard.
As a druid I'd take the earth domain and focus on shutting down the battlefield and porting in summoned critters to flank and distract. As a wizard I'd be a transmuter and take preference to buffing, wall spells, and the wonderful "hand" line. I'd also be able to provide a high amount of utility casting as a wizard, which seems to be lacking from the druid list.
What do you think? My character is 8th level. Thanks in advance, guys.
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Ok, so I went to the game last week with my shiny new bard and watched as 2 chain devils tore him limb from limb. This particularly awful display of evil highlighted a major weakness of our party: a lack of battlefield control.
Before I head into all of this, I want to make a few things clear: First, I'm not asking which is better, but instead asking which is better for my group. Secondly, seriously, please don't turn this into a debate about which class is more powerful. Now, with that said, here's what the party is currently running with:
Dwarven Barbarian: Damage, damage, damage. He fancies himself a "battlefield controller" with feats like stand still and lunge, but generally he just hits stuff. Hard.
Elven Fighter: Fighting with a glaive and the feat Short Haft from the PHB2, she's got awesome reach and area control, but like the Barbarian she's a one trick pony: hit stuff hard.
Human Sorcerer (Air Bloodline): A blaster focusing on area of effect spells. This is her first true caster, and she's ignoring a lot of the subtleties of arcane magic. As such, she's not providing *any* utility or buffs to the party.
Changeling Warlock: Another damage dealer, but instead focused on single target ranged attacks. He uses his eldritch glaive every once in a while, as to increase his damage, but all in all he's a glass cannon. He provides some minor utility (an at-will shatter gets us through most locks), but generally sticks to the damage dealing.
NPC Cleric: Run mostly by the DM, I agreed to take the leadership feat to give us access to some grade A healing. Her job is to hang out in the flank and offer much needed healing, but isn't really bringing much else to the table.So, as you can see, my party has damage dealing covered quite well. What I'm looking for is a character to cover the major gaps of the party: Buffing/Debuffing, Battlefield Control, and Utility casting. I'm torn between druid and wizard.
As a druid I'd take the earth domain and focus on...
You describe your need as Buffing/Debuffing, Battlefield Control, and Utility casting. That pretty much describes a wizard. He's pretty good at summoning critters too.
Well, the way I see it you will be better off with a wizard if you are only going to use the buffing and control aspect of it. The free scribe scroll and Arcane Bond will allow you to have more utility spells available then a druid without spending extra feats. Specialist wizards will also have more spells available then a druid at any one point in time. Also, the wizard spells are a little bit more setting neutral. (A lot of the druid abilities require you to be outside or near plants.)
With the druid you would have wildshape, slightly better AC/HP/Saves and healing spells so losing those will hurt some. But as your group already has damage dealers the combat druid and animal companion are not really needed. Most of the items listed that you lose by going Druid are not really in line with the buffing and control aspect that you were looking for.
I was gonna say it pretty much describes a Druid.
Okay, I think a lot of the decision depends on what level the party is and how quickly you expect to reach high level and how often the party deals with anti-magic and magic resistance and how important you think knowledge skills willl be.
In our last campaign we played for 2 years, reaching 20th level a couple sessions before the end. I'd expect something along those lines.
Gah, I'm really torn! I like both classes, which is the main problem here.
Gah, I'm really torn! I like both classes, which is the main problem here.
LOL. Are you doing point buy or random stats? When I get torn like this I often roll the dice and then decide. If you get one high state Wizard is better choice. If you get multiple... or a mix of medium you may want to go Druid as it makes better use of several better then average abilities.
Gah, I'm really torn! I like both classes, which is the main problem here.LOL. Are you doing point buy or random stats? When I get torn like this I often roll the dice and then decide. If you get one high state Wizard is better choice. If you get multiple... or a mix of medium you may want to go Druid as it makes better use of several better then average abilities.
Our DM likes to play his games dangerously, and goes easy on magic items. As such, we use a very high powered rolling system to compensate for an abundant lack of magic items by near-epic levels.
My stats are: 18, 18, 16, 16, 13, 10. We use 8+1d10 six times, arrange to taste. You can move up to 2 points (not to exceed 18) and *must* have +8 total mod.
Well, with those great numbers you could make anything. :)
But a druid would shine. Something like this.
STR 18
DEX 16
CON 16
INT ??
WIS 18
CHA ??
Put whatever you want into INT or CHA based upon if you want extra skill points or not. Get Power Attack, Combat Casting , WildSpell, Spell Focus (Conjuration), and Augment Summoning early on. This will allow you to summon pets to help out with CC and allow you to cast and heal a little better in combat. And your combat forms while wildshaped will be pretty awesome with your base stats to work from. Another way to go would be to skip combat casting and work up the spring attack (or fly by attack) route and use movement to your advantage.
This could also make a pretty good wizard as well if you take the various Form of XXX spells. Just move the 18 to INT and put the 13 in WIS. The advantage of going this route is the feats are easier to deal with and you could make magic items for the party. You loose wildspell... but gain things like Dragonform and Giantform (allows weapon use).
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Gah, I'm really torn! I like both classes, which is the main problem here.LOL. Are you doing point buy or random stats? When I get torn like this I often roll the dice and then decide. If you get one high state Wizard is better choice. If you get multiple... or a mix of medium you may want to go Druid as it makes better use of several better then average abilities.Our DM likes to play his games dangerously, and goes easy on magic items. As such, we use a very high powered rolling system to compensate for an abundant lack of magic items by near-epic levels.
My stats are: 18, 18, 16, 16, 13, 10. We use 8+1d10 six times, arrange to taste. You can move up to 2 points (not to exceed 18) and *must* have +8 total mod.
Wow...nice stats. I said wizard, but maybe you should just create an 8th level druid and wizard and see which one you like best.
Wow...nice stats. I said wizard, but maybe you should just create an 8th level druid and wizard and see which one you like best.
That is an excellent idea.
Have you considered Mystic Theurge? I usually don't recommend them, but if you're looking at buffing and battlefield control primarily, then CL isn't so much of a concern. Espec. with those stats :)
If not...meh, God wizard as per TreantMonk's Guide is a pretty good battlefield controller.
There's a good combo for druids tho: Entangle, Briar Web, Plant Growth
Strength or Escape Artist check to move - take damage + restricted to 5ft movement in like 260ft radius.
Then pull your bow/chain lightning out - pin & plug.
Dwarven Barbarian
Elven Fighter
Human Sorcerer (Air Bloodline)
Changeling Warlock
NPC Cleric
If it were me, I'd take a human or half-elf rogue/transmuter. It fills the large skills gap your party has, and gives you the utility casting and battlefield control you seek; I suggest that as far as physical combat is concerned, you use a bow and snipe - don't get physical, and use spells as much as possible. Ironically, the bard could have done all of these things very well, if structured correctly ...
Druids battlefield control is a little too situational and a little too limited. A wizards is not. If you want battlefield control, conjuration wizard is THE Way to go. From grease to Maze, the wizard controls the battlefield and can hamper, divert and control better then any other.
A druid's control spells are often dependant on there being a natural environment available for them to manipulate which is not always the case. And while the druid can summon more then the wizard, you already have 2 main combatants, tons of summons isnt really needed.
Given the amount of firepower your group has, I'd suggest wizard over druid.
You don't 'need' to summon critters for this party except as roadblocks. You can probably avoid getting targeted by enemies much, since you would have four party members posing significant threats; thus, the AC/hp boost of the druid is less needed. Also, with the NPC cleric you don't need the extra healing available.
For utility, battlefield control and buffing/debuffing, the wizard will have more spells available (due to specialization and scribe scroll), will have more variety in his spell selection, and will have more feats available to boost those spells through metamagic thanks to his bonus feats and not needing to take Natural Spell.
Wizard can also bring some additional benefits to the party that it appears the party may be lacking--knowledge and skills. With his high Int he'll have plenty of skill points to fill in the gaps that the party might be missing in. And with even a single skill point into a knowledge skill he can have it up to around +10 or more.
It doesn't look like you have any trapfinding/disabling in that party. So a rogue 3/wizard 3/arcane trickster could work well, or even rogue 1/wizard X to get the bonuses for the rogue skill set (disable device, perception, trapfinding). Alternatively, skill focus in disable device (and/or in perception as well) can reach an equivalent result with a good dex score. (I'd note that starting at lvl 8 you will avoid the hard levels of levelling up an arcane trickster, which are mainly in levels 4-7 due to poor BAB, spellcasting, and Hps.) Not saying that these are optimal builds, but if its something you've wanted to play before now would be a good chance to try it.
Loremaster would also be a solid option. Although when to take it, if at all, would depend on your specialization powers. You don't want to miss out on some specialization powers that are available at 8th level, and some scale so well that dipping into loremaster probably wouldn't be worth it.
I'd probably suggest elven wizard 8 with scores of Str 10, Dex 20 (18), Con 14 (16), Int 20 (18), and dividing the wis and cha between the last 16 and 13 as you desire. Elf would give low-light vision, the boost to perception, and the elven magic bonuses. Human would be a good choice as well for the extra feat, but its probably not necessary.
For Wizard specializations I'd probably suggest either conjuration (for the dimensional step ability at 8th level, plus the solid selection of spells) or diviner (for the initiative boost and the diviner's fortune ability). Illusion can work well too if you choose to use that as a means of battlefield control; the swift invisibility power at 8th level is very handy.
Snip ...list of spells...
Don;t both Stone Shape and Spike Stones require unworked stone to function? (the SRD is blocked at work :PP)
That being said, Wizard is they way to go here. Don't waste spell progression on Rogue (though I agree the skills bump would be nice), just get a spell book full of wall spells and a couple "save or die"s and roll out.
A druid's control spells are often dependant on there being a natural environment available for them to manipulate which is not always the case. And while the druid can summon more then the wizard, you already have 2 main combatants, tons of summons isnt really needed.While I agree that a druid's control spells -can be- dependent on there being a natural environment, I don't think they are -often- dependent on there being a natural environment.
Faerie File
Obscuring MistFlaming Sphere
Warp WoodStone Shape
Wind WallFreedom of Movement
Spike StonesThese are just some battle field control spells of 1st through 4th level which don't require natural environments to work.
Faerie Fire? How is that battlefield control? It just negates invisibility or blur, etc. Its a debuff not battlefield control.
Obscuring Mist - Almost useless as battlefield control, it goes both ways. If it hampers enemies it hampers allies. Its great if you need to hide, or distract an enemy, but its not battlefield control.
Stone Shape - A pretty good control spell but at 3rd level spells the wizard gets much better like stinking cloud. or even sleet storm.
Wind wall is a defensive spell more then control, unless you are facing lots of small flying creatures.
Freedom of Movement - This is an anti control spell, its a buff, not a battlefield control spell
Spike Stones - This requires rocky ground or stone floors, and though it is a good spell, at that level a wizard has black tentacles, which not only will likely to more to hamper movement, but will do more damage as well.
Alright, I've decided to go with a Wizard. I know that elf is the best choice, but I've never really liked the flavor of elves. I dunno, I'll have to read up on the Scarred Lands elves. As for specializations, I'm probably going transmuter- more probably that I'm going focused specialist with the schools of enchantment, divination, and abjuration barred. Conjuration is probably a better choice, but I spent 2 1/2 years playing a conjurer, so I'd like to branch out. :D
Thanks a bunch for the advice, guys.
Alright, I've decided to go with a Wizard. I know that elf is the best choice, but I've never really liked the flavor of elves. I dunno, I'll have to read up on the Scarred Lands elves. As for specializations, I'm probably going transmuter- more probably that I'm going focused specialist with the schools of enchantment, divination, and abjuration barred. Conjuration is probably a better choice, but I spent 2 1/2 years playing a conjurer, so I'd like to branch out. :D
Thanks a bunch for the advice, guys.
Elves have some nice advantages for wizard, but if you don't like them, humans do a fine job, too. Nothing wrong with an extra feat and a skill point.
Half-orcs have some nice features, too. Darkvision is situational, but nice when you need it. And wearing a big old falchion just looks cool. Thog cast spell! Thog slice leftovers!
Since you are making an 8th level PC a single dip into another class might really be worthwhile for those things you talked about.
Battlefield control
two best spells in the game
grease
entangle
pfft, newb...
Solid Fog
Black Tentacles :)
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A druid's control spells are often dependant on there being a natural environment available for them to manipulate which is not always the case. And while the druid can summon more then the wizard, you already have 2 main combatants, tons of summons isnt really needed.While I agree that a druid's control spells -can be- dependent on there being a natural environment, I don't think they are -often- dependent on there being a natural environment.
Faerie File
Obscuring MistFlaming Sphere
Warp WoodStone Shape
Wind WallFreedom of Movement
Spike StonesThese are just some battle field control spells of 1st through 4th level which don't require natural environments to work.
Obscuring Mist - Almost useless as battlefield control, it goes both ways. If it hampers enemies it hampers allies. Its great if you need to hide, or distract an enemy, but its not battlefield control.
Stone Shape - A pretty good control spell but at 3rd level spells the wizard gets much better like stinking cloud. or even sleet storm.
Okay so your saying obscuring mist a bad BC spell because it hampers allies and enemies alike and yet consider sleet storm a good one?!?
Okay so your saying obscuring mist a bad BC spell because it hampers allies and enemies alike and yet consider sleet storm a good one?!?
I'd agree, if only because Obs Mist has to be centered on the caster, which means the rest of the gang is usually in it's radius on casting. Sleet storm can (should?) be used at range.
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Half-orcs have some nice features, too. Darkvision is situational, but nice when you need it. And wearing a big old falchion just looks cool. Thog cast spell! Thog slice leftovers!
I appear to have gotten over the fact half-orcs aren't half-orcs to me anymore...[/amazement] That being said, I've always though Half-Orcs made good wizards, even in 3.5.
Anyway, the Arcane Bond(Greataxe or Falchion) can be pretty cool. Take the Universalist School, cast Keen Edge on your Falchion(or enchant so it's keen) and throw it. You also might like the Whirling Blade spell from Complete Arcane for this.
Consider the Web spell, followed by Fireball or Burning Hands. If you can cast Invisibility on the Web first, and get your enemies to run into it...
Okay so your saying obscuring mist a bad BC spell because it hampers allies and enemies alike and yet consider sleet storm a good one?!?
A druid's control spells are often dependant on there being a natural environment available for them to manipulate which is not always the case. And while the druid can summon more then the wizard, you already have 2 main combatants, tons of summons isnt really needed.While I agree that a druid's control spells -can be- dependent on there being a natural environment, I don't think they are -often- dependent on there being a natural environment.
Faerie File
Obscuring MistFlaming Sphere
Warp WoodStone Shape
Wind WallFreedom of Movement
Spike StonesThese are just some battle field control spells of 1st through 4th level which don't require natural environments to work.
Obscuring Mist - Almost useless as battlefield control, it goes both ways. If it hampers enemies it hampers allies. Its great if you need to hide, or distract an enemy, but its not battlefield control.
Stone Shape - A pretty good control spell but at 3rd level spells the wizard gets much better like stinking cloud. or even sleet storm.
sleet storm can be aimed. It has a long range instead of spreading from the caster. It hampers movement instead of just blocking line of sight.
Nah, Druid/Wizard/Arcane Hierophant - mystic theurge, but with added tree-hugging!
Both classes will fill the role you've described. However, when it comes to Battlefield Control - NOTHING beats out a Wizard.
I would go either Diviner (for the initiative boost) or a Conjurer (Since conjuration will make up the bulk of your spells.)
If you go Druid - you will find yourself blasting quite a bit more - unless you go Wildshape style - which will actually defeat the purpose of the selection (as your party already has lots of tanks - and a wildshape druid who dedicated casts will run out of spells much faster)
What do you think? My character is 8th level. Thanks in advance, guys.
You're not going to like this, but for the party you've described, the bard is most likely the optimal choice.
As an alternative, you could have your Resurrected Bard just BUY some scrolls of these control-ly type spells to give to the Sorceror (so they can learn how effective they are) in gratitude for being Res'd (hint, hint)...
As an alternative, you could have your Resurrected Bard just BUY some scrolls of these control-ly type spells to give to the Sorceror (so they can learn how effective they are) in gratitude for being Res'd (hint, hint)...
Given battlefield control spells often rely on save DC's or caster level, scrolls are generally not going to impress anyone, let alone be effective. I dont think this would be a good route for the OP to go.
I'd probably suggest elven wizard 8 with scores of Str 10, Dex 20 (18), Con 14 (16), Int 20 (18),This deserves mentioning for actually not recomending a wizard so feeble in strength he wouldn't be able to tote his own spellbook.
LOL - a wizard with a strength of 1 can carry a travelling spellbook without encumbrance - it doesn't even take up half his capacity.
A wizard with a strength of 6 uses only 5% of his light encumbrance limit on his spellbook.
Wizards can live with a low strength because their equipment is light, their abilities aren't strength based, and they don't wear armor.
However, if, like in this post, you have awesome stats to play with, dumping strength isn't necessary.
Given battlefield control spells often rely on save DC's or caster level, scrolls are generally not going to impress anyone, let alone be effective. I dont think this would be a good route for the OP to go.
Summons are considered battlefield control. You don't need them out that long for them to be effective, and they ignore spell dcs.
Given battlefield control spells often rely on save DC's or caster level, scrolls are generally not going to impress anyone, let alone be effective. I dont think this would be a good route for the OP to go.Summons are considered battlefield control. You don't need them out that long for them to be effective, and they ignore spell dcs.
some summons can be battlefield control, but to limit yourself just to those will mean you arent really filling the battlefield control role. There are too many other important spells.
some summons can be battlefield control, but to limit yourself just to those will mean you arent really filling the battlefield control role. There are too many other important spells.
Well, there are other spells besides summons that work well with scrolls. I was thinking of just one example. Figment spells are both pretty effective even without high save DCs.
I'd probably suggest elven wizard 8 with scores of Str 10, Dex 20 (18), Con 14 (16), Int 20 (18),This deserves mentioning for actually not recomending a wizard so feeble in strength he wouldn't be able to tote his own spellbook.
Well I was using the stats that the OP had generated, and 10 was his lowest. I did put Str as his lowest stat, and probably would for any battlefield control focused wizard. If his lowest stat was a 6 I would have suggested that go into Str as well.
If point buy were used I would consider an 8 str for a wizard, but probably no less than that, as it would start to draw down his CMD.
I generally prefer not to have an abysmal Cha and hate using that for a dump stat, unless theres no way around it (e.g. switch hitter ranger).
And this was all said from a Character Optimization standpoint. I can certainly understand playing a caster with high physical ability scores, and have done so in the past (e.g. a dragonlance minotaur fighter/sorcerer). But the OP seemed to be requesting advice on making the strongest character he could to complement his party; hence elven wizard with high Int, then Dex, then Con.
I'd probably suggest elven wizard 8 with scores of Str 10, Dex 20 (18), Con 14 (16), Int 20 (18),This deserves mentioning for actually not recomending a wizard so feeble in strength he wouldn't be able to tote his own spellbook.LOL - a wizard with a strength of 1 can carry a travelling spellbook without encumbrance - it doesn't even take up half his capacity.
Keep in mind the severe differences between traveling spellbooks and full sized ones, and the weight of the latter. Try carrying around several copies of the Oxford Abridged dictionary and tell me how far a strength 8 wizard is going to get in a day.
remember spells take up 1 page per spell level and even full sized books only have 100 pages. travellers have 25 and that's counting your cantrips.
Handy Haversack for carrying spellbooks, and Blessed Books for spells. One place where I tend to disagree with Treantmonk is in item creation feats, but thats probably due to the types of games I play in. Craft Wondrous Item for a wizard is quite the boon, as there are many low level wondrous items that are rather beneficial for a wizard to have (multiple haversacks, blessed books, etc) that may not be readily available to purchase.
Handy Haversack for carrying spellbooks, and Blessed Books for spells. One place where I tend to disagree with Treantmonk is in item creation feats, but thats probably due to the types of games I play in. Craft Wondrous Item for a wizard is quite the boon, as there are many low level wondrous items that are rather beneficial for a wizard to have (multiple haversacks, blessed books, etc) that may not be readily available to purchase.
+1 on your first point.
On your second, it is very possible. Minor magic like haversacks are usually available for purchase in the campaigns I've played in.
The value of item creation feats certainly vary based on the availability of those items for purchase.
I'd probably suggest elven wizard 8 with scores of Str 10, Dex 20 (18), Con 14 (16), Int 20 (18),This deserves mentioning for actually not recomending a wizard so feeble in strength he wouldn't be able to tote his own spellbook.LOL - a wizard with a strength of 1 can carry a travelling spellbook without encumbrance - it doesn't even take up half his capacity.
Keep in mind the severe differences between traveling spellbooks and full sized ones, and the weight of the latter. Try carrying around several copies of the Oxford Abridged dictionary and tell me how far a strength 8 wizard is going to get in a day.
remember spells take up 1 page per spell level and even full sized books only have 100 pages. travellers have 25 and that's counting your cantrips.
An excellent reason to take a couple of spell mastery feats. Cuts down on the number of books you need to carry. Of course the handy haversack and blessed book cut down on it too without the feat, but the feats can't be taken away.
True, a wizard is a good choice, but the druid tends to not fold so quickly if caught alone. That's the end of my debate.
At any rate, consider going Abjurer. Extra resistance to elements, buffing, and don't prohibit evocation or the other usual suspects for a wizard who can actually live. The resistance boost in another three levels is also like having an energy resist ring for the day.
If you're going to be an elf though, go diviner. Take Improved Initiative. Start every combat off with some big nasty spell and continually tell the DM you knew he was going to do everything he does. (Mostly because the divination abilities are really, really good)