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NPC Class Level's + PC Class Level's =?


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion


So i'm reading through the PHB, and noticed something. That NPC's with NPC class levels are equal to there class -2, while a PC is equal to his class -1, so what happens when you combine them.

EX: a 3rd level expert and a 3rd level rogue a CR 3?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Michael Wadden wrote:

So i'm reading through the PHB, and noticed something. That NPC's with NPC class levels are equal to there class -2, while a PC is equal to his class -1, so what happens when you combine them.

EX: a 3rd level expert and a 3rd level rogue a CR 3?

Calculate separately and add together, perchance? Expert = CR 1, Rogue 3 = CR 2, so said NPC is CR 3, by that method.

Dark Archive

Not quite; the answer is CR4.

For all intents and purposes, if they have even one NPC level, they get the NPC level bonus (level-2 CR). So a fighter 4/warrior 1 and a fighter 4 are the same CR. No it's not fair, but CR is a bit of a mess; they used to cheese that up all the time in LGR.

An Expert 3 is CR 1, and any levels he adds (PC or NPC) increases the CR by 1. A Expert 2 / Rogue 1 is also CR 1, despite being much better.

Scarab Sages

Actually, Expert 3 / Rogue 3 would be CR 5.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gamemastering.html wrote:
A creature that possesses class levels, but does not have any racial Hit Dice, is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –1. A creature that only possesses non-player class levels (such as a warrior or adept) is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –2.

Emphasis mine.

I take the first sentence to be a blanket statement, and the second to be a specific exception.

So, even the presence of a single PC class level makes your total CR to be sum of class levels minus one. (Which, considering Creating NPCs says that NPCs with PC class levels get better ability scores kind-of makes sense.)

Dark Archive

Well good they fixed the old LGR loophole. Module writers had CR limits; so would toss 1 level of Warrior or expert on anything that moves. That makes more sense.


@Thalin - What's "LGR".

@OP - The -1 and -2 are the rules, but I find that they still don't really work right. IMO, a 10th level NPC is a lot less than CR 8 due to their lack of Special Abilities, Class Feats and so forth that a comparable monster or PC-Classed opponent will have. There is no way a 20th level Warrior is a CR 18, and there is no way that the difference between CR 18 and CR 19 is ~10 Feats and a dozen other Special Abilities. Put another way, a 20th Level Warrior will get creamed by a 19th Level Fighter, even though they are supposedly equal in CR.

I still prefer the old method of cutting NPC levels in half compared to PC levels. Half them again in the case of a "non-associated" multi-class. This way, a 20th Level Warrior and a 10th Level Fighter are both CR 9. The Warrior may have many more HP, but the Fighter has more than twice the Warrior's Feats plus nearly a half-dozen Special Abilities.

It's not an official answer, but I find it more realistic and functional.

FWIW,

Rez


Rezdave wrote:

@Thalin - What's "LGR".

@OP - The -1 and -2 are the rules, but I find that they still don't really work right. IMO, a 10th level NPC is a lot less than CR 8 due to their lack of Special Abilities, Class Feats and so forth that a comparable monster or PC-Classed opponent will have. There is no way a 20th level Warrior is a CR 18, and there is no way that the difference between CR 18 and CR 19 is ~10 Feats and a dozen other Special Abilities. Put another way, a 20th Level Warrior will get creamed by a 19th Level Fighter, even though they are supposedly equal in CR.

I still prefer the old method of cutting NPC levels in half compared to PC levels. Half them again in the case of a "non-associated" multi-class. This way, a 20th Level Warrior and a 10th Level Fighter are both CR 9. The Warrior may have many more HP, but the Fighter has more than twice the Warrior's Feats plus nearly a half-dozen Special Abilities.

It's not an official answer, but I find it more realistic and functional.

FWIW,

Rez

I generally agree. I have always considered NPC classes (other than Commoner) to be CR = level * 2/3. Commoners are no more than half level in CR.

Even if you disagree with this estimation, you must admit that ranking Commoners alongside Adepts and Warriors at the same CR is ludicrous.


Oh, and I believe LGR stands for Living Greyhawk.

Grand Lodge

Actually, if one of the modules that Pathfinder's done has a character with NPC/PC levels, that'd make a world of difference. Anyone notice if they have yet? Maybe an aristocrat/rogue or something?


kevin_video wrote:
Actually, if one of the modules that Pathfinder's done has a character with NPC/PC levels, that'd make a world of difference. Anyone notice if they have yet? Maybe an aristocrat/rogue or something?

Have you looked at the preview of the Game Mastery Guide on the Paizo blog? The latest one has an image of the NPC-by-CR table. There are some combos on there that could be analyzed, take a look.


Can'tFindthePath wrote:
kevin_video wrote:
Actually, if one of the modules that Pathfinder's done has a character with NPC/PC levels, that'd make a world of difference. Anyone notice if they have yet? Maybe an aristocrat/rogue or something?
Have you looked at the preview of the Game Mastery Guide on the Paizo blog? The latest one has an image of the NPC-by-CR table. There are some combos on there that could be analyzed, take a look.

Commoner 1/rogue 1 = CR 1 (supports the idea that you use the PC rule for a mix)

Expert 5/Fighter 2 = CR 5 (supports the idea that you use the NPC rule for a mix)

Arrrrggghhhh!

Spoiler:
If I had to guess from these two, I would say:
If you have more levels in the NPC class, then you use the NPC rule.
If you have at least as many levels in the PC class, then you use the PC rules.


pres man wrote:
Can'tFindthePath wrote:
kevin_video wrote:
Actually, if one of the modules that Pathfinder's done has a character with NPC/PC levels, that'd make a world of difference. Anyone notice if they have yet? Maybe an aristocrat/rogue or something?
Have you looked at the preview of the Game Mastery Guide on the Paizo blog? The latest one has an image of the NPC-by-CR table. There are some combos on there that could be analyzed, take a look.

Commoner 1/rogue 1 = CR 1 (supports the idea that you use the PC rule for a mix)

Expert 5/Fighter 2 = CR 5 (supports the idea that you use the NPC rule for a mix)

Arrrrggghhhh!

** spoiler omitted **

I agree with this, and decide stats and ability score all on one track. That expert shouldn't have a 15 in his array, while the commoner rogue should. That cements some logic onto it. Heroic array then implies heroic gear, etc.


pres man wrote:
Can'tFindthePath wrote:
kevin_video wrote:
Actually, if one of the modules that Pathfinder's done has a character with NPC/PC levels, that'd make a world of difference. Anyone notice if they have yet? Maybe an aristocrat/rogue or something?
Have you looked at the preview of the Game Mastery Guide on the Paizo blog? The latest one has an image of the NPC-by-CR table. There are some combos on there that could be analyzed, take a look.

Commoner 1/rogue 1 = CR 1 (supports the idea that you use the PC rule for a mix)

Expert 5/Fighter 2 = CR 5 (supports the idea that you use the NPC rule for a mix)

Arrrrggghhhh!

** spoiler omitted **

THAT is Awesome with a capital A!

Dark Archive

Arazyr wrote:

Actually, Expert 3 / Rogue 3 would be CR 5.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gamemastering.html wrote:
A creature that possesses class levels, but does not have any racial Hit Dice, is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –1. A creature that only possesses non-player class levels (such as a warrior or adept) is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –2.

Emphasis mine.

I take the first sentence to be a blanket statement, and the second to be a specific exception.

So, even the presence of a single PC class level makes your total CR to be sum of class levels minus one. (Which, considering Creating NPCs says that NPCs with PC class levels get better ability scores kind-of makes sense.)

+1. This is how you calculate CR for NPCs in PF RPG.

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