I've got a concern that one of my adult players is cheating and I'd like some advice on how to address it This is in our general pathfinder game (not open play), but I need some advice anyways from you experts.
I've always suspected that he fudges. He tends to use camouflaged dice so that you can't see the result from across the table. He rolls and picks it up quickly so nobody else sees the result. Our group rolls attack and damage dice together to save time, but his character (2 attacks) uses the same colored d6 for his attacks and I suspect he's just choosing the higher. He rarely reports a miss on an attack and always does plenty of damage.
I did a rundown of the average initiative's over the last 8 combats (and am thinking of keeping track of other things just to be sure..but should I have to do this 'sleuthing?'):
Player
1. (probable cheater): 20.13
2. 14.63
3. 11.13
4. 14.38
5. 16.5
DM. 16.5
I've requested everyones character sheets to be emailed over to me for two reasons: 1) to make sure everyone's math is correct before I jump to conclusions, 2) work on background/foreground development for characters.
Any thoughts on how I should address this? He's an adult, so I want to treat him as such.
jh
Just tell him to roll his die so everybody gets a chance to see them instead of ninjaing them away instantly.
Also tell him to roll the dice individually or designate what die does what before he rolls.
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I've seen this a couple times before. For the camouflaged dice, ask him to use another set. "Steve, could you maybe use a set of dice with higher contrast? My old eyes can't read those ones from all the way over here."
Similar for dice snatching. "Sorry, that roll was too quick for me, I couldn't see it...could you roll it again?"
Before he rolls for damage, "remind me again which one is first attack and which one is second?"
The point is to not be accusatory, and instead encourage him to roll in a way that you can see each roll. Eventually these habits may stick and he'll stop cheating. I've known GMs who follow a policy of "If the GM didn't see the roll, it didn't happen". That might be a useful houserule to implement.
Another option that I've seen proposed many times: simply don't worry about it. Unless he's truly upsetting the game in some way, just let him fudge. Some people are only happy when they do well all the time, and it's kind of sad. But as long as he's not ruining the fun for everyone else, let him go.
Of course, if he's optimized around a specific roll like crits or initiative, and he always rolls high on those, then you have a problem. In that case you might want to pretend as if he's a level higher than normal and adjust accordingly (adding a couple extra mooks, giving the advanced template to solo enemies, or even just throwing on 20 extra hp to a BBEG if you know that Steve is going to come up with 20 extra damage somehow).
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I'd start simple and tell him you can't see his dice very well when he's rolling. Ask him to roll more towards the center where you can see and to use different colored dice so you can tell the difference. If he's cheating, he'll likely be offended by the request.
It may be (as unlikely as it sounds) that he's genuinely not fudging, but everyone here's probably run into someone who views the game as one to be won/lost, and they want to be #1 in contributions (hence the dice fudging). Talk to your other players about your concern if things don't smooth out as well.
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Probably meet him somewhere and discuss it one on one. Tell him how you feel, and what led you to feel this way. Don't accuse him with 'I think you're cheating'. Tell him that you're getting less enjoyment from the game because of the perception. Of course, he could have just built an effective combat character, and his bonuses make his rolls average higher naturally. There really is no way to avoid him getting upset, even being as honest as you can about it. So be ready to possibly lose a player. Hopefully you mentioning how his actions appear from your side will let him adjust and dispell your worries.
Of course, if he's optimized around a specific roll like crits or initiative, and he always rolls high on those, then you have a problem. In that case you might want to pretend as if he's a level higher than normal and adjust accordingly (adding a couple extra mooks, giving the advanced template to solo enemies, or even just throwing on 20 extra hp to a BBEG if you know that Steve is going to come up with 20 extra damage somehow).
I would be very careful about this way. If every enemy beats him on the draw and is inexplicably tougher than normal, you're basically punishing him for being effective. Extra mooks that he can drop in one hit are a good idea, because it will give him the reward for being a good combat character.
I've seen this a couple times before. For the camouflaged dice, ask him to use another set. "Steve, could you maybe use a set of dice with higher contrast? My old eyes can't read those ones from all the way over here."
Similar for dice snatching. "Sorry, that roll was too quick for me, I couldn't see it...could you roll it again?"
Before he rolls for damage, "remind me again which one is first attack and which one is second?"The point is to not be accusatory, and instead encourage him to roll in a way that you can see each roll. Eventually these habits may stick and he'll stop cheating. I've known GMs who follow a policy of "If the GM didn't see the roll, it didn't happen". That might be a useful houserule to implement.
That is how to solve the problem. You don't risk alienating him by accusing him of cheating and you will eventually teach him that cheating is not possible by monitoring things more closely.
also this is just a game. so there is no reason to "punish" him for prior bad acts.
In the games I run, we have a few rules about dice rolling:
1) All dice must be readable from across the table with ease
2) All dice must be shaken and rolled, no "pick up the dice and drop them on the table" things. (As a fan of dice cups, I encourage them).
3) Players must hae enough dice for their actions. If you have 2 attacks, you need 2d20 (you can borrow from other players of course)
4) All dice remain on the table until the GM finishes the results. No "ninja-ing" the dice.
ALL of the players have to follow this, not just the ones who might occasionally be fudging.
I don't know your playr, but I know the type. And it sounds like he has all of the typical symptoms of a dice fudger.
I would simply recommend instating all of these rules and you don;t have to single out anyone. And it lets the rest of the players help keep each other honest.
Out of curiosity, what kind of dice are most of you using? I can't think of a single die I've ever seen (except for a foot-square novelty plush d20) that could be read clearly from the other end of the table.
Back to the original question - my various games back in college neatly sidestepped this issue by having a gaming culture where everyone was interested and paying attention to everyone else's actions. So it didn't matter if the GM could see the roll, because all of the players were watching just to see what happened. Think of that scene in The Gamers where the ranger rolls a natural 20 on his attack and everyone is staring at the die as it comes to a stop, and then they're all cheering. Cultivate an environment like that, and not only will you remove cheating as an option but you'll make each player feel like they're the focal point of the game during their turn, which fulfills a lot of the psychological needs others have mentioned that can lead to fudging rolls.
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I've had similar problems lately with my RL group. Because there's 6 of them, i've asked them to roll attack and damage dice together, leave dice where they lie without picking them up straight after (pet peeve of mine), and to keep each other honest. From where I run my game, theres no way I can see all of the dice rolls.
there is some sound advice here.
i will add my own experience, as well.
Make sure you take care of it before the other players decide to!
We had a dice fudger once upon a time, and my players got him back in game by setting him up for his fudging glory, then tactically causing it to backfire, causing the poor fudgers pc to get whacked.
After the encounter i was like, 'Whoa, what happened to you guys?" and the players told me what they did, and the fudger got upset, threw a childish temper tantrum, threw some dice and some books, smashed his book bag against one of the players cars (cops were called!), and basically yelled and hollered and screamed down the street until we couldn't hear him anymore.
I did a rundown of the average initiative's over the last 8 combats
Player
1. (probable cheater): 20.13
2. 14.63
3. 11.13
4. 14.38
5. 16.5
DM. 16.5
Those numbers are completely useless without context, as those are obviously modified rolls (either that or the guy is very definitely a cheater, as you cannot roll over 20 on a d20 and 20.13 would mean he had at least one 21 or higher).
What did the various people ROLL on average? What are their bonuses?
Player 1 could be a big fat cheater with an init bonus of +2, or a really, really unlucky bastard with a bonus of +18.
I had a character once with an init bonus of +18. It was a drow swordsage in a pretty high-powered game, and swordsages can get all sorts of bonuses on their initiative.
My average initiative was something like 25 (it was lower than that if anything).
Out of curiosity, what kind of dice are most of you using? I can't think of a single die I've ever seen (except for a foot-square novelty plush d20) that could be read clearly from the other end of the table.
Actually, my players are using pretty regular dice. They're made from some sort of plastic I think, pretty mundane stuff. They're not radioactive or magical, and thus I cannot see them when I sit behind my screen.
I don't get up to watch each roll. I do tend to look at the mat when there's fights (but not always), but if they roll a spot check, I believe that they're telling the truth about the rolls.
Out of curiosity, what kind of dice are most of you using? I can't think of a single die I've ever seen (except for a foot-square novelty plush d20) that could be read clearly from the other end of the table.
Back to the original question - my various games back in college neatly sidestepped this issue by having a gaming culture where everyone was interested and paying attention to everyone else's actions. So it didn't matter if the GM could see the roll, because all of the players were watching just to see what happened. Think of that scene in The Gamers where the ranger rolls a natural 20 on his attack and everyone is staring at the die as it comes to a stop, and then they're all cheering. Cultivate an environment like that, and not only will you remove cheating as an option but you'll make each player feel like they're the focal point of the game during their turn, which fulfills a lot of the psychological needs others have mentioned that can lead to fudging rolls.
I have a player that has, on occasion, literally leapt up and kicked chairs across the room because other PCs have rolled natural 20s.
When he does this, there's no question if it's legit. It's become natural for the game progression now-- if the player isn't jumping around shouting and kicking things, I wouldn't believe it was a crit confirm.
Look at it from a different direction.
Cheating is aggravating, but what real harm are his actions causing? (this isn't an insinuation that his actions aren't harming anyone, rather it is a request for you to identify what harm his actions are causing)
Once you know the extent of the harm his actions are -actually- causing, then you know how far to press the issue. This can be all over the board.
Some GMs (and players) get overwraught just because somebody else isn't playing by the rules and they tend to overreact in ways which can be damaging to the campaign and detrimental to friendships. It's a game. Unless there's money on the line or he's actively harming someone else's ability to have fun, it probably doesn't matter whether the guy cheats.
This. I could not agree more. It's difficult to sit back and say nothing, but if he's doing nothing to wane on others fun and the others ARE having fun, let the man his have fun too. If there's something mathematically wrong with his character sheet, I'd point it out honestly, but otherwise I'd tend to agree with LilithsThrall.
Alternatively, another approach is to say something of "Let's keep appearances and at least let one of the other players witness your roll before picking it up, so no one thinks we're cheating." Allow the player the opportunity to rectify the situation before the thought "You're cheating" comes about in the first place. :)
Good luck!
I did a rundown of the average initiative's over the last 8 combats
A statistical sample with a sample size of 8 isn't proof of anything.
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If you are rolling both attack and damage in the same roll, one thing that can also be of help is to have the players use coordinated dice sets, ie the pink 20 and the pink d6 are attack one, the purple are attack two etc. There is no way you can have the same colour d6 for both your damage rolls and not be cheating, how would you know which belongs to which.
We have a player who always rolls two d20s for attacks as he claims his dice get lonely when they are rolled by themselves, but we all know that it is the green dice that is the one to watch, as it is the same every game, and we have been playing for many years now. Your problem player (for that matter all players) should to declare colours before rolling.
The other solution that could be used, if your gaming set-up can accomodate it, is a dice tower that everyone uses. There is even a really great DM screen that looks like a castle and has two towers, one a dice tower facing outwards for the players, and one a dice tower facing inside for the DM.
I think that it all boils down to....make some dice rolling rules for the whole table.
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Out of curiosity, what kind of dice are most of you using? I can't think of a single die I've ever seen (except for a foot-square novelty plush d20) that could be read clearly from the other end of the table.
I use high contrast dice, usually black and white, glow in the dark with black, or a dark solid with white. You can't see it from across the table to generally the 2-3 players around you will see it and keep you honest. Ultimately if the player is cheating the fact that his die is plainly visible for a longer time will make him uncomfortable and less likely to do so whether the GM can actually see the dice or not.
I like your suggestion about cultivating an environment where the players police each other in a positive way.
Also consider that he may just be a lucky dice roller. I have a player who very consistently rolls crits. He can be counted on to roll a crit pretty much every fight, and many times more than once a round. He sits right next to me where I can see all the rolls. Some people are just lucky.
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Also consider that he may just be a lucky dice roller. I have a player who very consistently rolls crits. He can be counted on to roll a crit pretty much every fight, and many times more than once a round. He sits right next to me where I can see all the rolls. Some people are just lucky.
Lucky or maybe he unknowingly has dice that favor high rolls.
Also consider that he may just be a lucky dice roller. I have a player who very consistently rolls crits. He can be counted on to roll a crit pretty much every fight, and many times more than once a round. He sits right next to me where I can see all the rolls. Some people are just lucky.
And some people learn how to weight or shave their dice so that they usually come up on good numbers. If you want to know if someone is truly lucky, have them use the same dice in a situation where good results are opposite of what they are used to, such as rolling low instead of high. Or give the lucky roller some of your dice to use for a session and see if the luck continues.
Good advice.
The best is to know where you are coming from when you try and deal with this. Don't worry about the rules broken, but the players. Other players want to be important too - not over shadowed by perma 20.
Ask for general confirmation procedures and perhaps arrange to have an unnamed player make the request for simple general improvements. Once you are clearly being vigilant, stick to your guns and ignore rolls you haven't seen. Stress that situation before they start rolling for the evening.
"Owww, you should have shared that! Sucks to reroll... Go ahead."
Emphasize that not sharing a good roll is the cause of losing it. To be impartial you need one rule. If he'd be clear, good dice etc... he'd have that 20 he's talking about.
"Is there anything I can do to help you roll more clearly?"
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While it had nothing to do with cheating, we got so sick of dice rolling off the table in the hands of the overly excitable players, that we grabbed the top of some boxed set and required all dice to be rolled in the box.
It also conveniently made sure that all of the dice would be rolled in a specific area, easily viewable by at least two others at the table, but that wasn't the intent.
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the last time i accused a player of cheating(while rolling stats), i made him reroll stats. They actually rolled all 18's on the rerolls, in front of me, using MY dice.... Then rocked a 3.5 human samuari (?!?). i ended up reincarnating him as an elf, just to give him variety in his stats
we were using 4d6, 1's rerolls, pick highest 3. he never rolled below a 5.
Same player also rolled natural 20's like no tomorrow. I couldn't hate on him, but it was nearly game breaking
Firstly.
Lets pretend he isn't cheating. Act that way. It'll help. (even if he is)
1) Ask him to please use differently colored dice for rolling multiple attacks. Treat it like a mistake, or as though he simply misunderstood how it should work.
2) Ask everyone to roll in the middle'ish of the table- not just him. Make it so you are asking Everyone to do something rather than single him out.
If you ask nicely and he refuses, then you know you have a problem. Then stop the game, and address it directly. With everyone there.
To me, this is an issue that effects everyone. its not a "disruption" issue, its something everyone needs to deal with.
It isn't "your game". its the game of everyone and they should all weigh in on it. Maybe players closer to him can (and have) verified his rolls and you just haven't realized it.
Just thoughts.
-S
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Of course, if he's optimized around a specific roll like crits or initiative, and he always rolls high on those, then you have a problem. In that case you might want to pretend as if he's a level higher than normal and adjust accordingly (adding a couple extra mooks, giving the advanced template to solo enemies, or even just throwing on 20 extra hp to a BBEG if you know that Steve is going to come up with 20 extra damage somehow).I would be very careful about this way. If every enemy beats him on the draw and is inexplicably tougher than normal, you're basically punishing him for being effective. Extra mooks that he can drop in one hit are a good idea, because it will give him the reward for being a good combat character.
To clarify: I don't advocate making enemies vastly tougher - just enough to outweigh the cheating. If he's always cheating on initiative and thus getting an average of 7 sneak attack damage that we wouldn't get otherwise, give the enemy 7 extra HP. If he cheats his way into an extra 15 damage every combat by fudging a crit, add an extra 15 HP.
It's not punishing him in any way, it's just negating the effects of the cheating. Besides, if you're playing with enemies from an AP or the Bestiary, they all have average HP anyway. An increase of 1-2 points per hit die isn't much at all.Point being, there are ways to make sure the cheating doesn't unbalance the game without having to confront it.
I used to have a player that did this a lot, he used an un-inked dice set that he claimed were amazing. I didn't want to accuse him of cheating, but the other players took matters into their own hands - when he left the table one time for the bathroom, they used a crayon to ink in his dice in a strongly contrasting colour.
He wasn't happy about this AT ALL, but it did stop the cheating.
So it may be best to find out what your other players think of this before deciding on action. The group I was DMing for at that time were tired of what was going on and felt it devalued their contributions, so they acted on it. Don't wait for that to happen to you.
I should have asked this in my original post, but do you, or anyone else posting about dice cheaters, award individual XP or an equal amount to each character per session? Because this type of cheater can really start to disrupt a group as they slowly get more XP than everyone else. After all, if you are hitting more and killing more and succeeding more on other rolls that everyone else, your character will pull ahead in XP and levels and that is bad. So if you do award XP based on individual performance, switch to another method, perhaps a flat amount plus bonus for role-playing, and this may stop some or all of the problem.
Even if all these ideas do not work, you have to remember that to some players treat rpg's as a competition and they have to kill more, succeed more, be better than all the other players, and dice fudging may be a sign of a bigger problem down the road.
I think talking it out with the other players is REALLY important. Whatever decision you make should affect everyone at the table, and everyone should abide by the same rules.
Addressing the problem would be best, as cheating can become really game breaking. I can't tell you how many times the action hinges on a +1, single HP, or 5' step. If you are going to allow one player to fudge things, create a (secret from the cheater) rule to compensate such as opponents have DR 3- against that player. That way, the other players at the table know that their contribution to combat is still important.
I have found that this game can push people mentally and emotionally. Late sessions, bad luck, and low blood sugar, can combine with out of game stress to upset the best of us. Festering problems get forced to a head, often in the worst way. It is better to nip problems in the bud, but we all play for different reasons, and a little dice fudging may or may not be worth losing a player over. That decision is best made as a group, since everyone's enjoyment in the game is affected.
EDIT vvv Having played since I was a kid, I really would have thought that stuff would have been left in middle school. Nope. I wish I could GM without issues like that, but apparently some things never change. Don't let it ruin your fun. vvv
I appreciate all the suggestions thus far.
I've been DMing sooooooooooooooo long that it annoys me to see adults cheating at this game.
jh
You may want to have a look at his dice. I have had (and seen dice) that without alterations roll very poorly or very well. They can be warped in the creation process, and every once in a while you run into dice that are just skewed. I had a dm with a set of green jewel dice that were unmodified (i watched him open the packed years ago in a flgs) that rolled insanely well right from the begginging. We had to eventually force him to retire those dice because they were killing too many pcs. So its possible it's the dice not the player.
In terms of not picking up the dice, and being able to see the dice, you can use something i have done. Get a shallow wide bowl, and place it in the centerish of the table. Ask players to roll in there so the dice dont go off the table. It will make it so you can see them (dice rolled closer to you) and also does the prescribed job and prevents dice from rolling off the table all the time and slowing the game down.
Look at it from a different direction.
Cheating is aggravating, but what real harm are his actions causing? (this isn't an insinuation that his actions aren't harming anyone, rather it is a request for you to identify what harm his actions are causing)
Once you know the extent of the harm his actions are -actually- causing, then you know how far to press the issue. This can be all over the board.
Some GMs (and players) get overwraught just because somebody else isn't playing by the rules and they tend to overreact in ways which can be damaging to the campaign and detrimental to friendships. It's a game. Unless there's money on the line or he's actively harming someone else's ability to have fun, it probably doesn't matter whether the guy cheats.
While I agree that in the end it is just a game, cheating is cheating. By not stopping the potential cheater, he is going to get worse and worse. The more a person gets away with, the more they attempt to get away with.
Also, a cheating player can easily subvert the rest of the table. Maybe you've got a player who is really trying to build a strong character, numbers-wise at the very least, without completely min/maxing, but pales in comparison to the cheating player, who consistently excels at everything.
I had a player once who cheated so much that his name still comes up in our gaming groups to this day, and it's been several years since we played with him. No matter how small the gaming table was, or how few of us were playing, he'd always roll his dice on a book or clipboard, off-table on his side, and never rolled below a 16(ninja'ed the dice before anyone could see). When we called him on it and demanded he roll out in the open with the rest of us, he rolled plenty of natural 1's just like the rest of us. He'd also constantly make ridiculously broken characters(i.e. half-dragons w/o a level adjustment), and then feign ignorance when we called him on that too. "Like, really man, you didn't notice anything odd about your race having +8 Str, a breath weapon, +4 Nat. AC, etc?" We really wanted to believe he just didn't know any better, but all this was after he had been playing for several years at the time.
Cheating is cheating, and if you don't put a stop to it, it's only gonna get worse. It does affect the other players, and takes away form your game in general. If he's stomping everything you throw at him, you might scale up the CR's, and eventually the honest players are going to be in the toughest game of their lives. This is just one likely scenario.
The simplest way I can think is to just ask him to roll out in the open, and leave the die until you've seen the resulting rolls. Any die he picks up before you see, ask him to reroll(maybe with a -5).
If it's gotten to the point that the DM sitting across the table notices something fishy, then there's a strong chance other players have noticed it too. What's that say for the DM's game? If other players see a cheating player who gets away with whatever he wants, why can't they?
If he's not doing any harm, than what does it matter if he cheats and cheats?
It doesn't.Could his cheating be doing harm? Yes. But, not necessarily.
The question is whether he's doing any harm. So far, no one has indicated that he has.
If it can be shown that his cheating is harming the game, then I agree it needs to stop. If it can't be shown that his cheating is harming the game, then the cost benefit ratio isn't worth making an issue of it.
Define harm. As a DM, the moment I know a player isn't being truthful about their die rolls, their gear, anything really, THAT is harming the game. The trust is gone. Encounters become impossible to gauge, and you never know what kind of loot they are carrying around. Every time they just happen to make their saving throw, you'll question whether they did or not. Times when the party's life is on the line, you'll second guess whether they actually were successful or just fudged it. It's a slippery slope to stand on, and rarely do cheaters just cheat a "little bit."
Having played alongside a cheating player before now, it can really be frustrating and it spoils everyone's fun. The problem needs to be addressed.
I gotta say, it's been interesting reading the two different sides of this conversation. It seems that side A believes that cheating isn't a big deal if it's not hurting anyone, and you should just compensate on your end to make up for his statistically high responses. Side B, however, thinks that cheating destroys the game and will eventually lead to more disruptive play, so should thus be stopped. Either way, I'd like to offer my own opinion.
I'm a cheater. I've been playing for 5 years now, and yeah, I fudge my rolls every now and again. To me, cheating is like a form of player DM'ing- it's the only time you have a mechanical "say" in the world. When combat has gone on too long (hitting the 3 hour mark) because nobody in the group can seem to hit the enemy, I'll bump up a roll or two to help end the fight. When a player's character is on the line, I've "rolled" well on a stabilization check- but in our campaigns we play with perma-death. And yeah, when sessions have been sorta mundane I've been known to botch a particularly crucial save. In fact, I've been known as Mr. Unlucky by more than one group. :D
So yeah, I've modified the numbers to fit my own desires from the session- rarely more than once a night, if that, but it happens and I'm not really ashamed of it. I think you should try to figure out *why* your player is cheating. If this person is your friend, and you value his/her presence at your gaming sessions, I think that you should figure out why s/he's cheating. If it's because they want to be mechanically the best, I'd recommend trying to set the person straight (using any of the suggestions above) and then offer other ways to "be the best." If it's just the stuff like I mentioned above, I'd say let it go. But hey, I'm partial.
As a DM, the moment I know a player isn't being truthful about their die rolls, their gear, anything really, THAT is harming the game. The trust is gone. Encounters become impossible to gauge, and you never know what kind of loot they are carrying around. Every time they just happen to make their saving throw, you'll question whether they did or not. Times when the party's life is on the line, you'll second guess whether they actually were successful or just fudged it. It's a slippery slope to stand on, and rarely do cheaters just cheat a "little bit."
So, you feel that as soon as someone starts cheating, that makes encounters impossible to gauge?
What does it mean to "gauge an encounter"? What defines a well-gauged encounter?
For me, "gauging an encounter" means coming up with a challenging scenario for my players, based on what my players bring to the table. Case in point, in a game I am currently running, nearly the entire party are spellcasters. The closest thing to a competent melee type is the level 4 cleric with 12 STR. So, when choosing challenging encounters, I keep that in mind. A Golem would wreak havoc on the party, for example.
It makes these encounters difficult to gauge since the cheater is doing things above and beyond what they are capable of doing at their character's level. So, you bump up the CR. That may eventually slow the cheater down, but in the process makes the game exceedingly difficult for the honest players.
It's as simple as finding encounters you feel are appropriate for your players. Now, do you really not know how to do that, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?