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RPG Superstar 2015

Kelmarane and the Kingmaker Kingdom Rules


Legacy of Fire


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Thoughts on bringing the Kingdom Rules from River Runs Red into Legacy of Fire and specifically on building up Kalmarane? I was trying to figure out how to get my characters interested in saving this city, letting them build it up would be the obvious way.

I haven't grokk'd the kingdom rules yet so I've got no specifics to offer but had some general thoughts: Since the town already has some buildings, it might be cheaper to refurbish some of them (lower BP cost). Being in a desert and lacking resources, maybe 3 month time frames would be better than quarterly. Along the same vein, I'm not sure how many hexes the kingdom can really spread to.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

I was having the same idea.

Between the set pieces and other locations traveled to in the 1st & 2nd books, there's maybe 6 or 8 hexes already made up for us.

Filling in the rest of the plains of Pesh with smaller encounters shouldn't be too hard. Then retheme/repurpose some of the hexes from Kingmaker, and transplant some of the ideas from the Dark Markets or even Orision books and we're well on our way.

I don't recall the scale of the plains of Pesh ever being well-defined, so we can blow it up if we wish, or just have them start settling the nearby mountains (NOT the Pale one though).

I would treat the plains of Pesh like "plains" and not "desert" (or maybe plains+1) just because otherwise, from a game point of view, things would slow down too much. You don't want kindombuilding to be a drag.

What were your thoughts?


I'll definitely be doing this. I plan to spend the year break between the first to adventures with city building and exploration. I'll be working up a hex map to-scale for the Kingmaker rules, as well as a city map for building. I'm up for some collaboration on the effort, and will likely automate the mechanics in a spreadsheet (building from several other folks' work).

And I agree that Kelmarane is not desert--Dark Markets notes the deserts as more central, with plains surrounding them leading up to hills/badlands, then mountains. I think the region will be more focused on mineral wealth from the mountains, and I'm interested to see if my players rebuild the pesh fields or do something different (they aren't big on the whole "export drugs" aspect from what I can tell so far).

The Exchange

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Very interesting idea. I was looking into it this morning and thinking about how it could be done. Since this isn't a full blown kingdom and just a city would you condense the rules to just a few hexes and take out a majority of the rulership positions?

If you do keep the rulership positions, I'd assume much control of the city would be taken over by Almah, which might mean a slightly different type of government than a "monarchy." Any thoughts on adaptations?

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

Here are the considerations that I'm making:

- Other than the one notable one, there are no small or tributary rivers. However, the concept of rivers adds a lot to the map, so I'm going to replace that with ravines.
-- Walking through a ravine will be at normal speed, but you cannot use (most) mounts. However, the encounter rate is doubled. Encounters that take place in a ravine will most likely be EL+1 over the normal CR, due to the difficultly in fighting there.
-- Unlike rivers, ravines don't have to all connect. They can be a cleft in the earth that has a finite distance.
-- Ravines will be principally described in terms of Climb checks (go down, then back up). I might allow enterprising PCs to use Acrobatics checks to pole-vault.

- By default, farms must be placed in the same hex as the river, or in a hex adjacent to an existing farm. This represents the establishment of an irrigation system. It would make the system too fiddly to come up with a seperate system of rules for making canals and such, so this seems the most elegant solution.

- There will be at least 3 abandoned shrines: the area seemed pretty spiritually active.
-- When I say "shrine" I mean something very small (an altar with some surrounding statues) not a "temple."
-- They will all be hidden locations.
-- One of them will be Lamashtu, fallen into disrepair and neglect because the gnolls have moved on to Rovagug. A spirit there promises the PCs powerful blessings if they "bring the goddess's children back to her."
-- One of them will be the site a paladin of Saerene (I don't have the book handy at the moment, so forgive my spelling) was buried, then dug up and defiled (back when the city was taken), the body is no longer there

- Add a wandering monster: a ghost (haven't decided exact incorporeal undead type yet) of the paladin referenced above that attacks anyone who spends too much time in the fields of Pesh
-- After destroyed, the Paladin reappears the subsequent night
-- Once Kelmarane has been settled and the Temple of Saerene rebuilt, the Paladin comes into the town and the Temple to pray at; finding himself unable to enter the holy ground, he goes berserk and attacks a nearby villiager before fleeing in greif
-- With a successful Diplomacy check DC 25 (substitute Turn Undead if the PC has that Feat) the Paladin will communicate with the players peacefully
-- Otherwise, have to find the body (located at another hex) and re-bury it

- At another hex, in the mountains, where one of the gnoll tribes lives, there is a mini-dungeon (like you tend to get in Kingmaker) and at the end, there is the Paladin's head on a pike (by the blessings of Saerene, it has not rotted all these years)

More tomorrow...

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
erian_7 wrote:
I'm interested to see if my players rebuild the pesh fields or do something different (they aren't big on the whole "export drugs" aspect from what I can tell so far).

My group will be consisting of a bard(archeologist) who is a pesh addict, and a gnome rogue/sorc who is a pesh dealer... I'm sure the two of them will be quite interested in the pesh fields...


Alizor wrote:

Very interesting idea. I was looking into it this morning and thinking about how it could be done. Since this isn't a full blown kingdom and just a city would you condense the rules to just a few hexes and take out a majority of the rulership positions?

If you do keep the rulership positions, I'd assume much control of the city would be taken over by Almah, which might mean a slightly different type of government than a "monarchy." Any thoughts on adaptations?

Important change in my game--I allowed the players to actually select from the NPC concepts for the game. So, Almah has been replaced by a Bard (still a minor noble sent by the Pactmasters), the major domo is the bard's adopted "brother" (an Entobian summoner), and my wife is playing a Zephyr Guard initiate charged with seeing to the safety of the Pactmaster's interests. So, I plan on actively using the rulership aspects, actually. I see Kelmarane rising up as a sort of city-state, basically.

I like that angle with the paladin ghost. Should make for an interesting side-quest.


Wow, using the Kingmaker rules for Kelmarane occurs to me as a no-brainer, now that I've found this thread. I'll definitely use them in my campaign (should it ever start).


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Pale Mountain Region map from House of the Beast with a hex overlay: Click Here.

The scale is wrong. Kingmaker says hexes should be 12 miles, hex on this map makes it about 3 miles. I just felt that this sized-up better on the map.


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Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

This is the starting setup I gave my players:

Almah’s funds gives 10 BP to start

2 districts in the city have been cleared and are ready for use (the upper city and the lower city). The Consumption cost on each district is 1 so you may want to wait for the city to be profitable before starting to use both of those districts.

Leadership positions: Almah is Ruler of the city, Garavel will be treasurer. Other positions are open to PCs and NPCs with Almah deciding.

The following buildings currently exist in the town though in some disrepair. They must be completed before they are any use in kingdom building. The buildings are as follows:

Building, BPs Already Present, BP to Complete
Graveyard, 2, 4
Guildhall, 10, 34
House, 2, 3
House, 2, 3
House, 1, 3
House, 1, 3
Inn,6,10
Mansion, 9,10 (Almah has awarded this building to you)
Mill,2,10
Noble Villa,8,24
Stable,3,10
Tannery,4,6
Temple,10,32
Watchtower,4,12

The building known as the Battle Market actually works as a collection of buildings:
Shop,7,8
Shop,6,8
Shop,3,8
Mansion,8,10: Almah’s quarters inside the battle market

While I’ve given some of these buildings names, some of them could be re-purposed as other buildings.

Desert hexes cost 2 BP to clear, 1 month before you can start placing buildings. Roads in a desert hex cost 1 BP. A desert hex can be used as farmland only if a water source is present.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Some thoughts:

Assuming the players go CG for the city. I gave Almah a +3 to economy, Garavel a +2. That's an economy of only 6. PCs may have a tough time making the economy roll of 21. Hopefully they spend Almah's initial funds building the shops.

My PCs befriended Janx the goblin and he's agreed to go back to his tribe and convince them to trade with the town. I'll probably run that as a 1-time Economic Boom event. The Set Piece from House of the Beast may be used - perhaps the goblins can't get to town until that is dealt with.

Dashki has survived and the PCs don't yet know about Three Jaws tribe. Dashki will probably ask the PCs to setup trade with them as well. I'm going to have this go not so well if they agree: Unrest in the city as the gnolls cause trouble (or maybe a stability roll. On success, the gnolls generate trade. On miss by more than 5, they do enough damage to cost 1d6 BP.)


Great thread.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Modules Subscriber
DMFTodd wrote:

Some thoughts:

Assuming the players go CG for the city. I gave Almah a +3 to economy, Garavel a +2. That's an economy of only 6. PCs may have a tough time making the economy roll of 21. Hopefully they spend Almah's initial funds building the shops.

My PCs befriended Janx the goblin and he's agreed to go back to his tribe and convince them to trade with the town. I'll probably run that as a 1-time Economic Boom event. The Set Piece from House of the Beast may be used - perhaps the goblins can't get to town until that is dealt with.

Dashki has survived and the PCs don't yet know about Three Jaws tribe. Dashki will probably ask the PCs to setup trade with them as well. I'm going to have this go not so well if they agree: Unrest in the city as the gnolls cause trouble (or maybe a stability roll. On success, the gnolls generate trade. On miss by more than 5, they do enough damage to cost 1d6 BP.)

HotCK Back Story:
Building Kelmarane into a thriving economic waypoint was the whole purpose of HotCK. Since Almah should be making the decisions, she should choose to build the economy first. Any other choice goes against the pactmasters agreement to send her out in the first place.

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Ouch, our first run through did not go so well. PCs built some shops with Almah's starting money and then proceeded to not make an economy roll the next 4 months. With a consumption of -2, they quickly went broke, unrest grew out of control, and the town of Kalmarene was not going to survive.

Reboot: Consumption has to be 0 for the town to survive. The first order of business has to be a farm. I gave them the pesh fields as another hex and put down a farm there. That costs the 4 BPs that Almah could provide.

Consumption is still -1 though so they need another farm. I don't want the desert to be farmland, so it will have to be the hills east of town. That's a cost of 6. They did make one economy roll at the start for +4 BP, -1 Consumption = 3 BP in the treasury. Still in trouble.

You could increase Almah's startng BP to 7 which would give them 6 right now to build that second farm and get to 0 consumption. I'm not that nice. I hope clearing out the salamanders will establish trade with the goblins and bring in some BPs for my group. Or, they manage to make an economy roll this month or next, which give them enough.

----
And having seen this, trade with the gnolls potentially costing BPs will not work. I'll probably change that to a stability check causing unrest. -2 on a fail, -5 if miss it by more than 5.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm about to start this AP with a new group using the Pathfinder rules, and my players really want to incorporate the Kingmaker rules somehow. I'm currently a player in a Kingmaker Campaign and we are having a great time with those rules.

I've been following this thread to see if I could milk some ideas and I like what you guys have come up with. The hex map in particular will be invaluable to incorporate the Kingmaker rules.

i will probably let the pc's become the rulers if they want and maybe Almah can become a co-ruler if it fits with how the events unfold.

I'm having some concerns when it comes to the size of the hexes, they are about 3 miles across if I'm not mistaken, while those in Kingmaker are four times that size.

Anyway it would be great if we could get together and create some side-quests and such to make the AP fit smoother with the Kingmaker rules. I've been working on some myself, but I'm using some non-ogl material (especially from the wotc book Sandstorm) so I don't think I can post it here.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

Mortagon wrote:
Anyway it would be great if we could get together and create some side-quests and such to make the AP fit smoother with the Kingmaker rules. I've been working on some myself, but I'm using some non-ogl material (especially from the wotc book Sandstorm) so I don't think I can post it here.

Brilliant! I'm assuming you're talking about Touchstone sites. That's... sheer brilliance! That is basically a perfect fit, you couldn't ask for better.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Erik Freund wrote:
Mortagon wrote:
Anyway it would be great if we could get together and create some side-quests and such to make the AP fit smoother with the Kingmaker rules. I've been working on some myself, but I'm using some non-ogl material (especially from the wotc book Sandstorm) so I don't think I can post it here.
Brilliant! I'm assuming you're talking about Touchstone sites. That's... sheer brilliance! That is basically a perfect fit, you couldn't ask for better.

Yes when I thought about adding quests to Lof the touchstone sites from Sandstorm was the first thing that popped into my mind. I've also been making a few quests from scratch and toying with some ideas on how to give the Kingmaker rules a more Arabian style flavor.

Scarab Sages

DMFTodd wrote:

Pale Mountain Region map from House of the Beast with a hex overlay: Click Here.

The scale is wrong. Kingmaker says hexes should be 12 miles, hex on this map makes it about 3 miles. I just felt that this sized-up better on the map.

Perfect!

I am running my crew through a LoF set in Geb (I like the ancient Egyptian/undead feel better than Arabian Knights) and using the Kingmaker rule-set/concept allows me to build in hexes with various great Egyptian style adventures of old (Pharoah, Necropolis, etc.) and this map is JUST what I needed!

The adjustments I have made is to make the campaign focused on destroying Geb's ghost and freeing Geb from the tyranny of the undead by carving out a realm free of their taint.

This is part of why I love Paizo so much. They give us room to take their great ideas, customize it, and make a module or adventure path into something much more personalized.

Thank you all.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Modules Subscriber

Remember guys, you have 3 places that can be used to provide one time rewards in bp to kelmarane. The oldfort, the waterfalls, and the set piece all seeing eye. Even the abandoned monastary canbe used for a bp reward rather than a cr2 xp encounter reward. Just wanted to throw those out there


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

We played out the year, detailed below. I made a couple significant house rules:
* Several buildings already had BPs towards them by using the ruins
* You could spend 2 * Number of Hexes Controlled BPs each turn. No free house, road, or building limit.
* You could put BPs towards a building without having to finish it.

Months 1-3: Party makes an alliance with the goblins for trade. Goblins can't do it though, because of the salamanders. We run that side trek, defeat the salamanders. Roll 1d6 for bonus BPs. PCs manage to build two farms to get them to 0 consumption and a treasure of 13 BPs.

Month 4: Made economy roll. Finished Mansion, Shop, Shop, House. 12 BPs left

Month 5: Make economy roll for 5, spend 6: Shop, House. Dashki is assassinated. The Three Gnolls got tired of him. PCs finish off the gnolls in the ruined fort, gain 1d6 BP for 2.

Month 6: +2 BP gnolls + 1 BP stability, fail economy, spend 6: Watchtower 4, temple 2. 8 BPs left.

Month 7: Spend 6, fail economy. Watchtower 2, Temple 2. Economic boom + 4 BP. 6 BPs left.

Month 8: +1 BP stability. Spend 6: Temple 6. No event.

Month 9: Fail economy, spend 6: Temple. 0 BP in treasury.

Month 10: +1 BP Stability, spend 1 on temple. Scandal involving a PC.

Month 11: Make economy roll for 5, spend all 5 on temple. Treasury still 0.

Month 12: Lost my notes. They finish the temple I think. Make the economy roll.

So at the end of the year:
3 hexes controlled, 1 city, 2 farms, 2 roads, Shops x 3, Mansion, House x 2, Temple, Watchtower, 2 minor magic items, 5 BPs in Treasury.


I have a question... I just started DMing LoF and I'm intrested in using Kingmaker rules, but the thing is - I'm going to be a player in Kingmaker (once we finish LoF). How will that affect my play in Kingmaker, seeing I'll have to learn the rules of kingdom making? I'd rather not use Kingmaker rules in LoF if that means I'll spoil my experience as a player in Kingmaker...


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I wouldn't think it would make any difference. You'd be learning rules, not plot or story.

I've seen some people saying "the players shouldn't know exactly what effect building X" has, you'd be spoiling that if that's the way the DM planned to run it.

Scarab Sages

Just to update the thread, and see if anyone else out there has had as much fun as I have with using Kingmaker rules in the ongoing LOF campaign:

My crew has added a good dozen hexes through the end of the House of the Beast adventure. I have imported the old classic 'Pharaoh' and the Paizo instant classic 'Pactstone Pyramid' as well as put the entire campaign in Geb (I like undead more than alien sovereigns) and it has been churning along nicely. We are soon to get to the point where the undead overlords are going to notice the party carving out, successfully, a zone where the undead don't get to feed and the dead aren't harvested for unwilling eternal slavery.

I have realized that the biggest adaptation for Kingmaker is the scale of time. I need to build in a lot more downtime between dungeon crawls to give the kingdom game time to work. Personally, this strikes me about right since the instant level phenomenon always struck me a bit wrong, with my AD&D (adding a level takes training time) mindset. I am also going to soon see if my successful merchant princes in Kelmarane are able to turn into effective generals against a legion of the undead.

It should be fun. How have you all done with it?


My players haven't finished Book #1 yet (they're still clearing the village) but I think the kingdom building rules from RRR will work well for the automatic year off they recieve at the end of Book #1. My players have aready made several side treks onto nearby villages using the region map from Book #2 to make sure that nearby viallges know that Kalmarane will sone be open for business.

They problem my players are having is what to do with the Pesh fields. Two characters (thief and sorcerer) want to expand the fields and use them as a cash crop. Three others (palidan, cleric and alchemist) are firmly against the idea of producing drugs.

Has any other group run into this problem over Pesh? If so, how was it solved? I could always have the Pactmasters simply order the fields to be brought back inro production, but I want my players to have more influence over the reconstruction of Kalmarane. What do other DM's think about this? I'd like your ideas and input. Thanks in advance for your help.

Silver Crusade Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber
Halidan wrote:

My players haven't finished Book #1 yet (they're still clearing the village) but I think the kingdom building rules from RRR will work well for the automatic year off they recieve at the end of Book #1. My players have aready made several side treks onto nearby villages using the region map from Book #2 to make sure that nearby viallges know that Kalmarane will sone be open for business.

They problem my players are having is what to do with the Pesh fields. Two characters (thief and sorcerer) want to expand the fields and use them as a cash crop. Three others (palidan, cleric and alchemist) are firmly against the idea of producing drugs.

Has any other group run into this problem over Pesh? If so, how was it solved? I could always have the Pactmasters simply order the fields to be brought back inro production, but I want my players to have more influence over the reconstruction of Kalmarane. What do other DM's think about this? I'd like your ideas and input. Thanks in advance for your help.

Alma is still in charge.

Have each side present her with reasons for or against using Diplomacy, Appraise or Knowledge (local/nature) as their skills. The side that wins best two of three opposed rolls gets their way. If your players can abide that (pesh isn't inherently evil and Alma decides what's legal and not), it should resolve the issue.


I would like to have DMFTodd's map of the Pale Mountain Region with a scale of 6 miles (and neither 3 nor 12). How can I do that ?


Awesome, I've just been toying with how to adapt the kingdom rules to my LoF sandbox. I like the idea of personalizing it and reducing the scale to more of a city-state thing than a large kingdom. I'm also playing around with the regional geo-politics and whatnot to make the area more independent. The Pactmasters only control about two days ride out from Katapesh proper, and most of the region is largely independent. Kelmerane is also a little further away, I figure your average caravan or large armed force is going to take in the vicinity of three weeks to move from Katapesh to Kelmerane, depending on the weather and other factors. Solku is a little closer, but the route is more dangerous. Going to be starting in about a month I think, can't wait.


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Sorry to be a wet blanket but why? Just can't see the point.

As it stands the gap between chapter 1 and chapter 2 is merely to allow Kelmarane enough time to grow into a town to suit the rest of the plot (and chapters 2 - 6 are all likely to conclude in a matter of months).

The party leave at the beginning of chapter 2. Have perhaps a short stay at the beginning of chapter 3 (although some groups might head straight for Katapesh).

Then they don't come back til the beginning of chapter 6 by which time everything has hit the fan and any development is kind of irrelevant.

In Kingmaker you presumably have 5 chapters at least partly set in the player's kingdom. Developing it is interwoven into the plot and takes years. The timescale of LOF couldn't be more different.

Lastly and frankly, if I was a player in such a game and spent all of this time building up my kingdom I think I'd be rather pissed to find out my kingdom got stomped into the ground by DM fiat while I was stuck on another plane.


Well for me personally I'm not running the AP as written all the way through, more using parts of its a jumping off and environmental adventures. The first two books are getting the entire treatment, with some modifications, The Jackal's Price and End of Eternity I will be using in some form or another, but I have no interest in the City of Brass, and I'm still deciding details on how the end game will play out, but I suspect it will involve the giant sphinx ;p.

I'm downplaying the "genie wars" as more of a historical piece up until the Scroll comes into play, and I'm still working on what will be going on there. I might depower Jhavul a bit and let them deal with him inside Kakishon with the aid of the other factions. Decisions decisions.

I do know I've written the Brazen Claw up as a relic that on a confirmed crit hits the target with a disintegrate spell (fort save and all), and that its currently in the possession of the Red Sultana ;p

Also, this is what Almah's background looks like in my version

Spoiler:
Almah Roveshki (Rogue 1)

The PCs employer and patron, Almah is only 16 years old at the start of the game. Her family is originally from Varisia, and her gypsy blood is visible in her somewhat exotically pretty face. She is the last of her family line, and is hoping to restore her family's fortunes by reclaiming their old estates and home in Kelmerane. The Roveshki's successfully oversaw the thriving market town for almost a century before darkness came to Kelmerane, when Karayan the Woe-Bringer arrived in the bustling town and set about his dark work. It was only a matter of weeks before his tender ministrations had the town seething in suppressed paranoia and hatred, the most tragic and important victim being Halruun, the high priest of Sarenrae's temple in the town.
Several of the the paladins and priests proved able to resist the Great Ghul's manipulations, and grew concerned. It was they who were able to organize the handful of sane townsfolk and take the battle to Karayan, driving the fiend into the crypts beneath the temple, and with the sacrifice of their leader, the paladin Aliyah Lightbearer, succeeded in sealing the fiend within the crypts. Afterwards the ragtag band of survivors gathered what they could and abandoned the now cursed town, heading south for Solku.
This was almost twenty years ago, and Almah had not yet been born when the tragedy took place. Her father (Luca) was the only member of the Roveshki family to escape, along with a much younger Garavel (who was a servant at the time, about 17 years old). One of the clerics of Sarenrae (Ridayah) would eventually become her mother.
Nine years ago her parents were killed during the Siege of Solku by the gnoll attackers, and she has relied on Garavel for guidance and protection ever since. The family's fortunes have waned considerably since the days Kelemerane was a thriving trade town, and she is wagering what is left on the success of this caravan. With the aid of her few servants and advisers she has set about making her dream of reclaiming her home a reality.
Her father had business dealings with the merchant prince Rashid Al'Haziir, and the Rakshasa gave Almah a seemingly reasonable loan in order to help her finance the venture.


Fair enough. I guess my point is that kingmaker rules only seem to make much sense if the bulk of your game is going to be set in or around Kelmarane.

If your going to re-write the AP to do that then it sounds like a fine idea.

Either way as you say I recommend downplaying the genie wars initially. One of the major plot disfunctions for me is that Jhavul (and impliedly his fate) is referenced too early and Xotani too late. It makes a much stronger story to swap the timing around. Plus it makes much more sense. As written Jhavul was being super secret about what he was doing while the legend of the Rough Beast's spawn should be part of Katapeshi folklore ala "Don't be naughty or Xotani will come back and burn you up."

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Modules Subscriber

The first three installments of this AP fit very well with using the kingmaker kingdom building rules. For me, as I have said in numerous other threads, I promised my players that they would get to lvl 18 before the final book since we had played so many of these ap's and only get to 14-16th level.

Everyone wanted to have the chance to get lvl 9 spells if they went solo classed.

The kingdom building option does help alot with additional xp, and with so many of the areas needing to be cleared already written into the first two books, its almost tailor made for DM's that dont want to do too much extra work other than knowing the rules and making the call on what the bp numbers would be for those areas...

CC


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Having run my group through 16 kingdom turns' worth of modified Kingmaker rules between HotCK and HotB, I can say that for me, as GM, the benefit came from giving a players a deep and concrete connection to Kelmarane. It isn't "just" their home -- it's a place they've personally rebuilt from rubble. Sure, Lady Almah gave them the Wharfmaster's Manor, but they, the players, had to scrimp and save to get it habitable.

By giving them an impetus to do some exploring, I also stumbled into some nice roleplaying/foreshadowing scenarios, such as meeting Amwyr Yuseifah and his slave harem on their way to their rendezvous with fate at the House of the Beast. (Two of the players took me off-guard and were hellbent on buying up as many of the concubines as possible, managing to throw together enough valuables to rescue 9 out of 12 of the women. One of those ex-concubines is now likely going to become a cohort to the party's kobold sorcerer.)

Scarab Sages

DMFTodd wrote:

Pale Mountain Region map from House of the Beast with a hex overlay: Click Here.

The scale is wrong. Kingmaker says hexes should be 12 miles, hex on this map makes it about 3 miles. I just felt that this sized-up better on the map.

The link is broken.

Is there somewhere else, where we can find this map ?


Having read the Adventure Paths in question, I figured a few things:

First thing is that developing Kelmerane and the Pale Mountain region is not the same as the Stolen Lands. There's not the same amount of expansion as the area is already limited. I would say that to expand the experience, you might want to make the City development part a little more detailed.

Also, given the settings and rewards you can get over the course of the game, You can make Kelmerane a very different place than Narland.

Adventure Path spoiler:
A Sub-spatial realm (or parts thereof), a Noble Efreet's entire estate, and the services, wish-granting or otherwise, of a number of genies are all among the possible spoils of the campaign.

A few ideas to come to mind:

Give the players some time between HotB and TJP to do further development. Given the circumstances, you might want to make the time variable, but hit them with an increasing amount (and severity) of people trying to buy or take the treasure gained at the end of HotB from them.

Since the campaign ends around Lvl 15, the time after stopping Javhul can be used to further rebuild the town. If you managed to take the Big Prize of TIE, they could have a connection to the Elemental Plane of Fire, which could make good trading partners, not to mention new threats.

Another possible hook is that one of Katapesh's big players takes an unhealthy interest in the region's newfound prosperity. Maybe someone with bottled and enslaved Genies at his or her command. This also ties into if the PC's choose to revive the Templars.

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