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Welcome to Arizona...


Off-Topic Discussions

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Nasty Pajamas wrote:

No, let's not. Let's just stop the illegal portion.

Oh, I just had an even better idea! We should build ROBOT DEFENDERS that drive along the U.S.-Mexican border. 1000's of 'em patrolling and swarming -- ever vigilant.

This would require skilled workers to build them, and employ a lot of out-of-work LEGAL immigrants -- Look at me mom!

Reading your crazy ideas is fun, keep up the good work.

YES! How could I have been so short-sighted? I was too busy looking into the past, what with Berlin-style-walls and geriatric Stasi operatives, regurgitations of Python and Modest Proposals.

Ok, so here's the new plan: Instant blanket amnesty to every non-legal resident currently living in the US. Next, we retrain them in the fields of AI programming, robotics, and optics (for the laser guns, of course). Bada bing, bada boom: killer robot death squads. Just have to make sure we point them SOUTH. Can't forget to point them south...

Zo


Please reward me for my illegal smurftivity.


Smurfurion wrote:
Please reward me for my illegal smurftivity.

Shouldn't that be "Please smurf me..."


DigMarx wrote:
Nasty Pajamas wrote:

No, let's not. Let's just stop the illegal portion.

Oh, I just had an even better idea! We should build ROBOT DEFENDERS that drive along the U.S.-Mexican border. 1000's of 'em patrolling and swarming -- ever vigilant.

This would require skilled workers to build them, and employ a lot of out-of-work LEGAL immigrants -- Look at me mom!

Reading your crazy ideas is fun, keep up the good work.

YES! How could I have been so short-sighted? I was too busy looking into the past, what with Berlin-style-walls and geriatric Stasi operatives, regurgitations of Python and Modest Proposals.

Ok, so here's the new plan: Instant blanket amnesty to every non-legal resident currently living in the US. Next, we retrain them in the fields of AI programming, robotics, and optics (for the laser guns, of course). Bada bing, bada boom: killer robot death squads. Just have to make sure we point them SOUTH. Can't forget to point them south...

Zo

No to blanket amnesty.

Yes to the wall, and the new law.


Do you really want to fix the illegal immigration problem with our border with Mexico in a humanitarian way? I have the solution, though we are too cowardly to implement it.

Annex Mexico. Make Mexico part of the United States.

Let's examine this from a few points:
(1) Industry can then flow southward, wages there will increase, there will be more jobs (and more consumers) and fewer people will need to head so far northward.
(2) The Mexican government has no reason to halt illegal immigration, since the vast majority of immigrants (legal and illegal) funnel money back into the country.
(3) The Mexican government is even more inept and powerless and corrupt than our own. Want to stop the violence associated with Mexican drug gangs? Make them American drug gangs... finish this argument yourselves.
(4) Unifying the U.S. and Mexico will provide U.S. businesses a bigger market, and will encourage the Mexican people to aspire (even more so) to American ideals and standards (whether that is a good thing or not is a topic for elsewhere).

Of course, this is not a perfect solution, since many of the illegal immigrants come from farhter SOuth than Mexico, but it would put a major dent in the problem. If those other governments wanted to retain their autonomy, seeing the U.S. absorb Mexico would certainly provide impetus for their governments to approach the problem on equal footing. Expect an outcry from the E.U. and the Middle East, as alarger America would dent their power projection capabiliities and economy. Many would regard this as simply imperialist expansion or Manifest Destiny, but this solution would work within a relatively short time frame.

Andoran

When is someone going to start a thread condemning Mexico for the way it treats Guatemalan illegals?

Qadira

houstonderek wrote:

When is someone going to start a thread condemning Mexico for the way it treats Guatemalan illegals?

You mean twice as bad as we do the illegal Mexicans. The fact that one of our personnel men here at work used to work in a meat packing plant where they had guys stabbing each other because the Guatemalan guy dared look at his Mexican girl friend.

Yeah us poor Americans.... We treat the world as our toy.


Vigil wrote:

Reasons to ask for proof of citizenship that DON'T racially profile:

-Pulled over for a traffic violation and unable to provide a driver's license. (Citizens tend to have one)

-Pulled over for a traffic violation and 8 people are found hiding in your trunk. (Citizens tend not to traffic in human smuggling)

The real purpose of these laws is to make these people self-deport. We can't catch them all and send them home, there are too many. But if life here is scary when your not supposed to be here, you'll go elsewhere.

If you are here legally, you have nothing to fear. Nor are you a "second-class" citizen.

+1.

Very well said. I agree 100%.
I have lived in the western part of our great nation in colorado and have visited utah,arizona,New Mexico so I know a little about the situation in that area.
I have personal experiance with an illegal that broke into his ex-girlfriends apartment while she was showering and began beating her. I and my roommate responded from upstairs and I fought him off of her while my roommate got her to safety. The really sad part came the next day when he ignored the restraining order, snuck in at night through a window and raped her at knife point. The police knew who he was and he even boasted to her in a letter that he was safe back in mexico and that it was her fault for breaking up with him because she damaged his honor or some sort of machismo BS.
This is indicitive of the illegal mindset. Look at the crime rates for california. I think the L.A. times did an article about how 95% of all murder warrents were for illegals.
The illegals come here for jobs and don't pay into our system and then go back home after 20+yrs or so and live like kings.
I am not racist nor do I hate anybody but ILLEGAL immigration has to end. I am very tired of my tax dollars being wasted to support criminals.

Andoran

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Andrew Turner wrote:


Out of curiosity, how many Paizonians routinely carry their SSN card on their person?

I have been carrying the same card since '87, though it is very close to disintegrating..

And wait...They are going to stop using SSN on military IDs?...first I heard that, it would be nice though.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Dragnmoon wrote:
Andrew Turner wrote:


Out of curiosity, how many Paizonians routinely carry their SSN card on their person?

I have been carrying the same card since '87, though it is very close to disintegrating..

And wait...They are going to stop using SSN on military IDs?...first I heard that, it would be nice though.

I've had the same card for many years now, but I never carry it since I've had my SSN memorized for the last 19 years or so. Instead, I keep the card locked away somewhere safe - kinda like a lich's phylactery.

Qadira

I beleive in fairness and equality. Therefore, I propose that we apply the same visitation and immigration policies on ALL foreign nationals that their country applies to US citizens. Now I realize that this is not at all feasible, but do a little internet searching and check out some foreign immigration laws. I took a quick look at some of Mexico's, and their standards are not much different than our own.

Taldor

bugleyman wrote:

Right. And dropping a nuclear bomb on Arizona would also solve the problem; I suppose you advocate that?

As long as you took out most of Texas too.


houstonderek wrote:

When is someone going to start a thread condemning Mexico for the way it treats Guatemalan illegals?

Sorry, I don't live in Mexico, and wasn't aware of the situation. Since you are, perhaps you should start such a thread?

But in any case, I don't see how this is at all relevant.


Nasty Pajamas wrote:


No to blanket amnesty.

Yes to the wall, and the new law.

You're either extremely clever, or just extremely oblivious.

Occam's Razor FTW.


Callous Jack wrote:
bugleyman wrote:

Right. And dropping a nuclear bomb on Arizona would also solve the problem; I suppose you advocate that?

As long as you took out most of Texas too.

The green-eyed monster shows it's ugly head again. ;)

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Garydee wrote:
Callous Jack wrote:
bugleyman wrote:

Right. And dropping a nuclear bomb on Arizona would also solve the problem; I suppose you advocate that?

As long as you took out most of Texas too.
The green-eyed monster shows it's ugly head again. ;)

It is a sad, sad thing to see....


Pathfinder Tales Subscriber
Aberzombie wrote:
Garydee wrote:
Callous Jack wrote:
bugleyman wrote:

Right. And dropping a nuclear bomb on Arizona would also solve the problem; I suppose you advocate that?

As long as you took out most of Texas too.
The green-eyed monster shows it's ugly head again. ;)
It is a sad, sad thing to see....

Very, very sad.

Qadira

Stats are what they are, so take this in stride:

Arizona #5 in the nation for car thefts 2009. California is #1. Per capita, 1 car is stolen from every 120 people in AZ, 1 in every 156 in California.

Phoenix is the #2 city IN THE WORLD for kidnappings. Mexico is #1. If I am not mistaken, a large portion (if not the greater portion) of this is from the illegal immigrants population. What is important is to understand how deeply into US territory the drug cartels and other criminal organizations are reaching.

Aside from stats, its a common event to watch on the News about another house invasion or something - they even had one guy who had security cameras and you see the thugs drive up and attempt to invade his home until he shot at them and chased them off.

Whether or not this is a good law, a just law, or whatever would require me to understand more about law than I do. I can, however, understand where people are tired of such large crime numbers and are willing "to throw the baby out with the bathwater" in frustration. We have landowners and ranchers killed or attacked at their homes, property damaged, etc. on a regular basis.

A goodly portion of these immigrants, I am certain, are just wanting to have a job and to feed their families, and maybe, just maybe, a better life for their kids. I understand this. Unfortunately, there is a lot of chaff that comes through with them. How do you develop laws that separate the intent of the heart? Since we can't, what's the right thing to do?


TigerDave wrote:

Stats are what they are, so take this in stride:

Arizona #5 in the nation for car thefts 2009. California is #1. Per capita, 1 car is stolen from every 120 people in AZ, 1 in every 156 in California.

Phoenix is the #2 city IN THE WORLD for kidnappings. Mexico is #1. If I am not mistaken, a large portion (if not the greater portion) of this is from the illegal immigrants population. What is important is to understand how deeply into US territory the drug cartels and other criminal organizations are reaching.

Aside from stats, its a common event to watch on the News about another house invasion or something - they even had one guy who had security cameras and you see the thugs drive up and attempt to invade his home until he shot at them and chased them off.

Whether or not this is a good law, a just law, or whatever would require me to understand more about law than I do. I can, however, understand where people are tired of such large crime numbers and are willing "to throw the baby out with the bathwater" in frustration. We have landowners and ranchers killed or attacked at their homes, property damaged, etc. on a regular basis.

A goodly portion of these immigrants, I am certain, are just wanting to have a job and to feed their families, and maybe, just maybe, a better life for their kids. I understand this. Unfortunately, there is a lot of chaff that comes through with them. How do you develop laws that separate the intent of the heart? Since we can't, what's the right thing to do?

Bitter Thorn wrote:

How Immigration Crackdowns Backfire. The trouble with Arizona's draconian new law

I tend to have issues with this and real ID.

Does anyone know what the law actually says? I've heard reporting that ranges from, "You only have to document legal status if you are ticketed or arrested for something unrelated." to "Everyone with an accent will be cavity searched on the street.".

What can be used to prove legal status?

I'm curious if someone has a good source because the reporting is wildly contradictory. I'm even skeptical of elements of the piece I link to above.

Crunch the numbers.


I tell you, it's those Mexicans. Except for a few "clean" ones, they're criminals. Plus, who wants a bunch of young workers? It's not like we have an aging population and longer life spans, or anything.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go reflect on Moral Superiority by Accident of Birth.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Yeah, here in Canada we have a problem with illegal immigration. We want to build a huge concrete wall to keep them out but they just keep coming. Yeah thats right America is Canada's Mexico. :P


Jeremy Mcgillan wrote:
Yeah, here in Canada we have a problem with illegal immigration. We want to build a huge concrete wall to keep them out but they just keep coming. Yeah thats right America is Canada's Mexico. :P

Laugh, but if we don't get our economic house in order we may both live to see it. :(


WTS [Appointed Governor] x1, PST.


bugleyman wrote:

I tell you, it's those Mexicans. Except for a few "clean" ones, they're criminals. Plus, who wants a bunch of young workers? It's not like we have an aging population and longer life spans, or anything.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go reflect on Moral Superiority by Accident of Birth.

Are you sure you shouldn't replace "bugley" with "straw" for this post? I understand your frustration, but my that's a loaded post...

And I'm surprised at no response by anyone to the idea of making all Mexicans Americans...


bugleyman wrote:

I tell you, it's those Mexicans. Except for a few "clean" ones, they're criminals. Plus, who wants a bunch of young workers? It's not like we have an aging population and longer life spans, or anything.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go reflect on Moral Superiority by Accident of Birth.

I don't think it has to do with an accident of birth so much as social responsability. Every nation has it's problems but no other nation has the illegal imagrant problem that we do. They pour over our borders by the thousands per day and do you think any other developed nation would tolerate that.

I see us as a poor starving dog infested with blood sucking ticks and nobody cares if it dies, because the ticks will find a new host.
We as americans have worked hard to build this country up and make it a wounderful place to live in. Our forefathers worked hard to give us this great nation and I am sick and tired of seeing it given over to walking leeches that could care less about us as a nation.
The irish immagrants faced simlilar hatred and overcame it, so has every other immagrant population because they wanted to be a part of something better and contribute to it's greatness, they never expected us to learn their languages or their customs, if they caught on fine(St. Pattricks Day) but noone demanded a law saying it HAS to happen.

I would like to applaud the Govenor of Arizona for her very brave stance and hope and pray that other govenors will follow suit. We need to deal with these crimminals as crimminals and not a up and comeing democratic piowerbase. I wonder what they'll be offered in place of 40 acres and a mule?


the Stick wrote:
bugleyman wrote:

I tell you, it's those Mexicans. Except for a few "clean" ones, they're criminals. Plus, who wants a bunch of young workers? It's not like we have an aging population and longer life spans, or anything.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go reflect on Moral Superiority by Accident of Birth.

Are you sure you shouldn't replace "bugley" with "straw" for this post? I understand your frustration, but my that's a loaded post...

And I'm surprised at no response by anyone to the idea of making all Mexicans Americans...

Loaded? Yes. Straw-man? I'm not so sure. In this very thread there is an assumption shared by many that immigrants are more likely to be criminals than natives, an idea that is:

1. Wrong.
2. Racist.

Qadira

Bitter Thorn wrote:
Crunch the numbers.

Again, stats are what they are ... just ask Dr. Michael Mann.

In 1999, the state population was ~ 4.7 million. In 2008, ~ 6.5 million. In a decade the state has grown by nearly half of what it was in 1999. Percentages being what they are, I would expect them to go down unless the percentage of people who are conducting these crimes also goes up at an equal rate. Understand that "people who are conducting these crimes" is NOT tied to any specific demographic, in fact crimes and their severity are equally spread across the entire diverse ethnic background of people. The actual numbers of crimes themselves have remained "steady" within your typical band of increases and decreases, with all sorts of social implications as to whys and wherefores that I'm not certain anyone has a real lead on.

I'm also surprised that Steve Chapman's blog refers to the Ruben Rumbaut and Walter Ewing text that deals largely with immigration as a whole, not just the "illegal" portion of it, whereas an article from Robert J. Sampson in the same magazine has a much more in depth look at that specific situation. His chart starts to make an interesting trend as we get into 2000-2004, but it isn't something I'd make into too much hype.

Andoran

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
bugleyman wrote:
In this very thread there is an assumption shared by many that immigrants are more likely to be criminals than natives, an idea that is:

Not saying I agree with the law.. But I would like to make one point..

If they are an Illegal immigrant, then they are a criminal.


Steven Tindall wrote:


I don't think it has to do with an accident of birth so much as social responsability. Every nation has it's problems but no other nation has the illegal imagrant problem that we do. They pour over our borders by the thousands per day and do you think any other developed nation would tolerate that.
I see us as a poor starving dog infested with blood sucking ticks and nobody cares if it dies, because the ticks will find a new host.
We as americans have worked hard to build this country up and make it a wounderful place to live in. Our forefathers worked hard to give us this great nation and I am sick and tired of seeing it given over to walking leeches that could care less about us as a nation.
The irish immagrants faced simlilar hatred and overcame it, so has every other immagrant population because they wanted to be a part of something better and contribute to it's greatness, they never expected us to learn their languages or their customs, if they caught on fine(St. Pattricks Day) but noone demanded a law saying it HAS to happen.

I would like to applaud the Govenor of Arizona for her very brave stance and hope and pray that other govenors will follow suit. We need to deal with these crimminals as crimminals and not a up and comeing democratic piowerbase. I wonder what they'll be offered in place of 40 acres and a mule?

First, would you at least try to keep your rants coherent?

Second, and once again, the problem with the law is the potential effect on citizens, some of whom are going to be stopped in the street based on race and asked to produce identification papers. If you truly can't see why that's a problem, well, I don't know what else to say, except: Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.


Dragnmoon wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
In this very thread there is an assumption shared by many that immigrants are more likely to be criminals than natives, an idea that is:

Not saying I agree with the law.. But I would like to make one point..

If they are an Illegal immigrant, then they are a criminal.

Semantics; people are suggesting illegal immigrants are more likely to be robbers, thieves, drug dealers, etc., than the indigenous population. That's what is what I meant by criminal. Substitute "a danger to others" if you wish; my points stands.

Andoran

bugleyman wrote:

In this very thread there is an assumption shared by many that immigrants are more likely to be criminals than natives, an idea that is:

1. Wrong.
2. Racist.

Actually the notion is that illegal immigrants are criminals. This is a notion supported by the fact that they are here illegally, thus guilty of a felony.

This notion is neither incorrect, nor racist as illegal immigrants are not a race. The discrimination* in this matter is between those whom respect our laws upon entry (during stay, and upon exit), and those that do not.

*Remember, discrimination is not inherently wrong, as discrimination is merely the discerning of the difference between two or more persons, places, things, or actions.

Silver Crusade

Dragnmoon wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
In this very thread there is an assumption shared by many that immigrants are more likely to be criminals than natives, an idea that is:

Not saying I agree with the law.. But I would like to make one point..

If they are an Illegal immigrant, then they are a criminal.

Just to clarify, "illegal" does not equal "criminal".

Adultery is illegal. People who commit adultery are not criminals. It can be dangerous to conflate the two terms.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled flamewar.

Edit: I'll point out that entering the country or remaining there without a visa is considered a crime, albeit not a felony, as was mentioned in another post.


NotMousse wrote:
bugleyman wrote:

In this very thread there is an assumption shared by many that immigrants are more likely to be criminals than natives, an idea that is:

1. Wrong.
2. Racist.

Actually the notion is that illegal immigrants are criminals. This is a notion supported by the fact that they are here illegally, thus guilty of a felony.

This notion is neither incorrect, nor racist as illegal immigrants are not a race. The discrimination* in this matter is between those whom respect our laws upon entry (during stay, and upon exit), and those that do not.

*Remember, discrimination is not inherently wrong, as discrimination is merely the discerning of the difference between two or more persons, places, things, or actions.

Actually, no, the notion (explicitly stated in this thread) is that illegal immigrants are more likely to be drug dealers, murderers, home invaders, etc., which is both incorrect and racist.

Andoran

bugleyman wrote:
Substitute "a danger to others" if you wish; my points stands.

In that case illegal immigrants would also qualify as 'a danger to others' given the medical screenings that are bypassed by illegal immigrants that are illegal upon entry. One need only look to the increased in TB and polio, diseases practically wiped out in the US.

In the case of TB I know that it is screened for and treated within the education system in at least several states (I believe it is federal regulation).

Andoran

bugleyman wrote:
Actually, no, the notion (explicitly stated in this thread) is that illegal immigrants are more likely to be drug dealers, murderers, home invaders, etc., which is both incorrect and racist.

I've missed this. Where is it explicitly stated that any particular race is more likely to be drug dealers or home invaders?

A quote would be preferable to a link as the quote would point out exactly where this notion came from.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

bugleyman wrote:
Second, and once again, the problem with the law is the potential effect on citizens, some of whom are going to be stopped in the street based on race and asked to produce identification papers.

My understanding is that the law is written to specifically exclude that sort of behavior. Those arrested for other reasons will be expected to produce documentation, but no one should be "stopped in the street" based solely on their race or nationality. The law simply mandates that those arrested for other reasons must prove they are here in the US legally.

I understand the concern that people will be harassed solely because of their skin color, but I don't think widespread abuses are very likely. Arizona has a large Hispanic population, who will not tolerate police harassment. In a time when police cars have computer network access, verifying the identity of a cooperative citizen (or documented foreign national) shouldn't be particularly time consuming.

One of the problems this legislation is meant to address is the difficulty police officers have verifying the true identity of foreign-born criminals. Some Mexican criminals habitually gave false names and birthdates, claiming not to have any US identification. Police might arrest the same individual several times before they figure out his true identity and his criminal history catches up to him.


NotMousse wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
Substitute "a danger to others" if you wish; my points stands.

In that case illegal immigrants would also qualify as 'a danger to others' given the medical screenings that are bypassed by illegal immigrants that are illegal upon entry. One need only look to the increased in TB and polio, diseases practically wiped out in the US.

In the case of TB I know that it is screened for and treated within the education system in at least several states (I believe it is federal regulation).

...which is only true because we make it so. Illegals are here; if there are as dangerous as you claim, we should immunize them. And no, that in no way legitimizes their presence; it is merely a concession to reality.

But this is all beside the point, which is: People are arguing that home invasions, drugs, and violent crime come with illegal immigrants. Basically, that these people are inherently prone to crime. That they're dangerous. Yet there is no data to support this claim. So why are they making it?


NotMousse wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
Actually, no, the notion (explicitly stated in this thread) is that illegal immigrants are more likely to be drug dealers, murderers, home invaders, etc., which is both incorrect and racist.

I've missed this. Where is it explicitly stated that any particular race is more likely to be drug dealers or home invaders?

A quote would be preferable to a link as the quote would point out exactly where this notion came from.

Re-read my statement.

Andoran

Sir_Wulf wrote:
In a time when police cars have computer network access, verifying the identity of a cooperative citizen (or documented foreign national) shouldn't be particularly time consuming.

During a time where I was routinely stopped I know that the identification process is both quick and painless. Annoying after awhile, but that's another matter.


I don't. But I definitely carried my passport and visa when I lived in Peru. And I was meticulously careful to keep my visa valid and up-to-date. Every country in which I've spent significant amounts of time required it. Insisted upon it. Would bring consequences on your head if you didn't.

Did I gripe or complain about that? No. It's an accepted part of travelling abroad.

Andrew Turner wrote:
Rhubarb wrote:
well thank you for your military service, you should probably find yer card and memorize that number cuz its gonna be needed as we head into the future

Thanks, and I appreciate your support :-)

I use my SSN routinely (someone in the Army is asking for my "Last Four" on a daily basis), so I know it; and it's incorporated into several of my identity cards I use at work...but the actual SSN card? I certainly don't carry it around, and I can't remember the last time I actually saw it. My prints, DNA, and favorite color are all on file, thanks to my government service, so it should be a pretty quick process for anyone to verify my status.

Out of curiosity, how many Paizonians routinely carry their SSN card on their person?


Sir_Wulf wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
Second, and once again, the problem with the law is the potential effect on citizens, some of whom are going to be stopped in the street based on race and asked to produce identification papers.

My understanding is that the law is written to specifically exclude that sort of behavior. Those arrested for other reasons will be expected to produce documentation, but no one should be "stopped in the street" based solely on their race or nationality. The law simply mandates that those arrested for other reasons must prove they are here in the US legally.

I understand the concern that people will be harassed solely because of their skin color, but I don't think widespread abuses are very likely. Arizona has a large Hispanic population, who will not tolerate police harassment. In a time when police cars have computer network access, verifying the identity of a cooperative citizen (or documented foreign national) shouldn't be particularly time consuming.

One of the problems this legislation is meant to address is the difficulty police officers have verifying the true identity of foreign-born criminals. Some Mexican criminals habitually gave false names and birthdates, claiming not to have any US identification. Police might arrest the same individual several times before they figure out his true identity and his criminal history catches up to him.

I give up. I don't know how to be more clear: It doesn't matter if it's painless. YOU DON'T SINGLE OUT PEOPLE BASED ON RACE and ask for their papers in free and open society. And like it or not, there is no practical way to enforce this law without using race.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

bugleyman wrote:
Actually, no, the notion (explicitly stated in this thread) is that illegal immigrants are more likely to be drug dealers, murderers, home invaders, etc., which is both incorrect and racist.

The issue isn't that illegal immigrants are more likely to commit crimes than other groups. The issue is that they're more difficult to capture and prosecute because foreign criminals freely "jump" the border, taking refuge in Mexico to derail efforts by American law enforcement officials. I've had Mexican criminals boast to me that they'd be back within a day, resuming their criminal lifestyle after release.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

bugleyman wrote:
YOU DON'T SINGLE OUT PEOPLE BASED ON RACE and ask for their papers in free and open society. And like it or not, there is no practical way to enforce this law without using race.

I agree with you that it's wrong to single people out because of race, but what I've read suggests that every single Arizona arrest will involve verification of the arrestee's status. If police want to arrest folks because of their skin color, they'll make a lot of paperwork for themselves, something that any cop prefers to avoid.

Shadow Lodge

Celestial Healer wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
In this very thread there is an assumption shared by many that immigrants are more likely to be criminals than natives, an idea that is:

Not saying I agree with the law.. But I would like to make one point..

If they are an Illegal immigrant, then they are a criminal.

Just to clarify, "illegal" does not equal "criminal".

Adultery is illegal. People who commit adultery are not criminals. It can be dangerous to conflate the two terms.

Via Dictionary.com:

Illegal
–adjective

1. forbidden by law or statute. ***
2. contrary to or forbidden by official rules, regulations, etc.: The referee ruled that it was an illegal forward pass.

Criminal
–adjective

1. of the nature of or involving crime.
2. guilty of crime. ***
3. Law. of or pertaining to crime or its punishment: a criminal proceeding.
4. senseless; foolish: It's criminal to waste so much good food.
5. exorbitant; grossly overpriced: They charge absolutely criminal prices.
–noun
6. a person guilty or convicted of a crime. ***

For simplification's sake:

Crime
–noun

1. an action or an instance of negligence that is deemed injurious to the public welfare or morals or to the interests of the state and that is legally prohibited. ***
2. criminal activity and those engaged in it: to fight crime.
3. the habitual or frequent commission of crimes: a life of crime.
4. any offense, serious wrongdoing, or sin.
5. a foolish, senseless, or shameful act: It's a crime to let that beautiful garden go to ruin.

Follow the asterisks. Ergo: CH is incorrect.

YES, if you are involved in a crime - an illegal activity - YOU ARE A CRIMINAL.

END OF LINE.

PS: I'm curious where Adultery is considered a crime. In most places as far as I'm aware it's not even illegal anymore. Which saddens me greatly, but that's the state of the world.

Andoran

bugleyman wrote:
Re-read my statement.

I have. For any notion to be racist it must discriminate on the basis of race. I've missed any possible notion in this thread that any particular race is more prone to crime than any other. That is why I asked for the quote you surely possess, for you would not have stated such things otherwise.


NotMousse wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
Re-read my statement.
I have. For any notion to be racist it must discriminate on the basis of race. I've missed any possible notion in this thread that any particular race is more prone to crime than any other. That is why I asked for the quote you surely possess, for you would not have stated such things otherwise.

The vast majority of illegal immigrants in Arizona are Hispanic; no one is denying that. When one claims that, as a group, illegal immigrants are violent criminals to a disproportionate degree, what one is really saying is that Hispanics are violent criminals to a disproportionate degree. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

Good try, though.

P.S. It's also xenophobic, but no one explicitly mentioned that, either.

Silver Crusade

Orthos wrote:
Stuff

I'm not interested in dictionary definitions, I'm interested in legal ones.

A crime is that which violates the criminal code. Illegal is that which violates any law, including criminal law, civil law, family law, etc.

Adultery is illegal in the context of family law as a grounds upon which to sue for divorce. (My Google-fu, however, reveals that it is still a crime in New Hampshire. Interesting.)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

But what about all the complaints people have had about that new-born baby, or that 90-something year old lady being stopped by airport security because their names were on some anti-terrorist no-fly list?

Profiling someone based on ethnicity is unfortunately often-time a necessity...

Examples:

Who tends to blow themselves up? Muslim Extremists (certainly not babies and little old ladies).

Who tend to be the extremists within the Muslim faith? Those with a Middle Eastern background...

Of what racial background do the majority of illegal aliens come from IN STATES THAT BORDER MEXICO? Those with a Latin background...

Have we as a nation truly become so thin skinned?

We're afraid to profile at airports, and we get upset. We make a law that tries to weed-out those that are here illegally, and because a large majority of those "illegals" that are in states like Arizona happen to be Latino, we think it's about discriminating against all who have brown skin...

WTF??

Seriously, is our skin that thin...

Shadow Lodge

Digitalelf wrote:
Seriously, is our skin that thin...

Political correctness at its worst. Yes, yes some of us have.


Digitalelf wrote:

But what about all the complaints people have had about that new-born baby, or that 90-something year old lady being stopped by airport security because their names were on some anti-terrorist no-fly list?

Profiling someone based on ethnicity is unfortunately often-time a necessity...

Examples:

Who tends to blow themselves up? Muslim Extremists (certainly not babies and little old ladies).

Who tend to be the extremists within the Muslim faith? Those with a Middle Eastern background...

Of what racial background do the majority of illegal aliens come from IN STATES THAT BORDER MEXICO? Those with a Latin background...

Have we as a nation truly become so thin skinned?

We're afraid to profile at airports, and we get upset. We make a law that tries to weed-out those that are here illegally, and because a large majority of those that are in states like Arizona happen to be Latino, we think it's about discriminating against all who have brown skin...

WTF??

Seriously, is our skin that thin...

*Sigh*

It's not about being thin-skinned or afraid. It's about putting in place mechanisms to treat people differently based on race. No matter how noble the original motivation, history teaches us that such systems *will* eventually be abused.

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