Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain - confusion and inconsistencies


Rules Questions

51 to 73 of 73 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Hard to tell, but my guess is yes.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

My search-fu is weak, so this looks like the best thread to ask the question: with the exception of CON, is it possible to take a stat negative due to ability score damage? (The victim would be unconscious in any case; it's just a matter of how hard it is to recover.) There seems to be nothing preventing going negative, but the language used ("A character with a Charisma score of 0...." vs. "A character with a Charisma score of 0 or less....") could be taken to imply that 0 is the bottom.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Ability damage (which doesn't reduce the affected score) can indeed exceed the ability score:

Core Rulebook, Glossary wrote:
If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score...

Ability drain is less clear. Ask your GM?


With ability score damage, it is not possible to take an ability score negative as damage does not reduce the actual ability score.

The only way to reduce your ability score is by draining it, which yes, if it hits 0, you will either become dead (CON) or unconscious (any other score).

Edit: Shoot, ninja’d by Jiggy.

How is ability drain less clear, though? It does say it lowers the ability score, so if the score becomes 0 (or below), you are dead or unconscious.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That's right; it's not that the ability goes negative per se.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

To flip it around, yes, you can take more ability damage than you have points in an ability, and would need to heal up to your ability score less 1 in damage to become conscious/mobile.


Majuba wrote:
To flip it around, yes, you can take more ability damage than you have points in an ability, and would need to heal up to your ability score less 1 in damage to become conscious/mobile.

Oh, you are right, just looked it up again. If you do take ability damage, and it exceeds your ability score, you fall unconscious or die.

I had thought the distinction with your ability score not decreasing (with damage), your score could not reach 0 and therefore you could not become unconscious (die).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hobbun wrote:

With ability score damage, it is not possible to take an ability score negative as damage does not reduce the actual ability score.

The only way to reduce your ability score is by draining it, which yes, if it hits 0, you will either become dead (CON) or unconscious (any other score).

Edit: Shoot, ninja’d by Jiggy.

How is ability drain less clear, though? It does say it lowers the ability score, so if the score becomes 0 (or below), you are dead or unconscious.

AIUI now, the distinction is that ability damage doesn't change your actual ability, only your capacity for using it. That is, if you have a 13 STR and you're hit by a shadow, you take some amount of STR damage. Your STR is still 13 (so you don't lose your power attack feat), but due to penalties you're not able to use your STR to full effect (so you have penalties on attack and damage rolls, STR checks, and the like). It's possible to take more ability damage than you have points in an ability (except for CON).

OTOH, ability drain changes the actual ability. Since it's not clear from RAW whether it's possible to have a negative ability score, there is some confusion regarding whether ability drain can take you negative.

I think.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Hobbun wrote:
I had thought the distinction with your ability score not decreasing (with damage), your score could not reach 0 and therefore you could not become unconscious (die).

That is the case with Ability Score Penalties, which act like damage but can't effectively reduce you below 1 (i.e. to unconscious or dead).


Ok, I understand the differential between the three now (penalty, damage and drain).

I will say though ability damage is a bit misleading. The issue I have is it stating it “doesn’t reduce an ability”. I understand they are trying to get across taking ability damage does not affect feats, spell slots or other ability related requirements, but it does reduce your ability score where you still need to heal it, whether through magical or natural means.

I would prefer they just stated it reduced your ability, but this reduction does not impact ability requirements needed for feats or bonuses to spell slots.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Hobbun wrote:
but it does reduce your ability score

Except it doesn't. You just accrue some penalties. Why are you saying it reduces your ability score?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's semantics. Ability score damage reduces the effect of your ability score in some ways, and the question is whether it's clearer to say "Ability score damage does not change your ability score, but applies penalties 1 to n to the effect of your ability score." or "Ability score damage reduces your ability score for the purposes of <functions 1 to n> but not for the purposes of <functions n+1 to x>." Because the number of possible applications for an ability score is large and may increase as the rules set grows, it seems to me to be better to go with the former (as the developers did). An example or two might have helped with the explanation, though.


Jiggy wrote:
Hobbun wrote:
but it does reduce your ability score
Except it doesn't. You just accrue some penalties. Why are you saying it reduces your ability score?

Nevermind, I understand what is being said now. But it is an extremely fine line between ‘reducing’ and ‘taking damage’, which is where the confusion originated.

Some can say it is semantics whether a number is being reduced or a minus (damage) is being assigned to it.

Edit: John understands where I am coming from.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

There are other differences, as well.

For instance, if I have a 14 and my score is reduced by 1, my modifier went down and I start taking penalties right away, while if I started at 15 then that 1-point reduction has no real effect until there's a second point of reduction.

But the way ability damage works, the first point never affects you at all, while every even-numbered point of damage always accrues a penalty, no matter whether your ability score is even or odd.


Curious if and how this ties in with the Temporary/Permanent increase discussion on another thread...only in reverse.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Hmm, this just came up in our group, and I never thought of it.

Target has 14 dex and the dodge feat and gets hit by a tanglefoot bag. He takes a dex penalty of -4, so RAW, his dodge feat is shut down. Right?


Matthew Morris wrote:

Hmm, this just came up in our group, and I never thought of it.

Target has 14 dex and the dodge feat and gets hit by a tanglefoot bag. He takes a dex penalty of -4, so RAW, his dodge feat is shut down. Right?

Near as I can tell only if he takes dex damage. Ability drain and penalties to abilities don't actually reduce the ability score.


dragonhunterq wrote:
Near as I can tell only if he takes dex damage. Ability drain and penalties to abilities don't actually reduce the ability score.

It is the other way around. "Drain" permanently reduces the ability score, while "damage" does not.


Brf wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
Near as I can tell only if he takes dex damage. Ability drain and penalties to abilities don't actually reduce the ability score.
It is the other way around. "Drain" permanently reduces the ability score, while "damage" does not.

Quite right, well spotted! i shall fire my editor right away...:)


Matthew Morris wrote:

Hmm, this just came up in our group, and I never thought of it.

Target has 14 dex and the dodge feat and gets hit by a tanglefoot bag. He takes a dex penalty of -4, so RAW, his dodge feat is shut down. Right?

Nope. Penalties don't actually lower your ability stat.


wraithstrike wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Hmm, this just came up in our group, and I never thought of it.

Target has 14 dex and the dodge feat and gets hit by a tanglefoot bag. He takes a dex penalty of -4, so RAW, his dodge feat is shut down. Right?

Nope. Penalties don't actually lower your ability stat.

Though, if it were ability drain instead of damage it would disable the dodge feat.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Claxon wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Hmm, this just came up in our group, and I never thought of it.

Target has 14 dex and the dodge feat and gets hit by a tanglefoot bag. He takes a dex penalty of -4, so RAW, his dodge feat is shut down. Right?

Nope. Penalties don't actually lower your ability stat.
Though, if it were ability drain instead of damage it would disable the dodge feat.

True, but ability drain is an actual reduction in your stat.


Yet another Thread necromancy!

So here's my character's relevant stats:
Alch 10 /Master Chymist 2 (CL 11)
Int (including headband): 18 (+4) [without mutagen]
4th level extracts 2+1

Question: If I use one of my 4th level extracts at the start of the day (namely, Age Resistance because he's old) when I drink my mutagen or mutate (both buff STR so with either one I take -2 penalty to INT) do I still have 2 4th level extracts or does one become inert?

Phrased another way: can I designate my Age Resistance as using my bonus extract slot and consume it before taking an INT penalty and not lose it's or my other extracts' potency?

51 to 73 of 73 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain - confusion and inconsistencies All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.