Creative Director
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Alternatively, they can spend a number of months at a time hunkering down and building the kingdom - if you do nothing but rule for the month, you get +4 to each ruler's contribution. You can also alternate adventuring months (which may want or need to do in response to events) with full-time rulership months.Is this an artifact of the playtest rules and/or a house rule?
Or just another example of me missing it in print?
I believe that's an artifact from an early playtest that was cut from the final, since we didn't want to make it seem like the only way to get full maximum potential from your kingdom was for the PCs to skip adventures.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If they're popular (and they certainly seem to be so far), chances of the kingdom building and city building rules being expanded and included in a stand-alone product at sometime in the future are relatively good. After all, many other new rules conventions that premiered in Pathfinder (traits, chases, haunts, etc.) are appearing in hardcover rulebooks this year.
Pathfinder RPG version of the Stronghold Builder's Guide. The super expanded version with city and kingdom building rules too.
We wants it, my precious.
|
If they're popular (and they certainly seem to be so far), chances of the kingdom building and city building rules being expanded and included in a stand-alone product at sometime in the future are relatively good. After all, many other new rules conventions that premiered in Pathfinder (traits, chases, haunts, etc.) are appearing in hardcover rulebooks this year.Pathfinder RPG version of the Stronghold Builder's Guide. The super expanded version with city and kingdom building rules too.
We wants it, my precious.
Thnx! that actually is better. Is there any way we can get a copy of stuff that got cut from kingdom building .... like if you spend the whole month doing 'nothing' you get a +4 on all rolls ie Controll etc. That's kinda important.
|
Creative Director
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thnx! that actually is better. Is there any way we can get a copy of stuff that got cut from kingdom building .... like if you spend the whole month doing 'nothing' you get a +4 on all rolls ie Controll etc. That's kinda important.
Actually, the fact that I cut it from the rules more or less makes it kinda unimportant, since if it were something I felt was important, it would have stayed in the rules.
In any case, I didn't keep a file of the rules from the first several drafts handy, since they changed and were adjusted during the various playtesting and development sessions the rules went through. Things like the +4 bonus to rolls while the PCs do nothing but sit at home were cut for reasons. Feel free to add them in if you want, but I cut them because I felt that they added too much clutter or skewed the experience in a way that wasn't really in the best interests of the overall experience.
In upcoming issues are there plans to include magic items that can affect the Kingdom rules? I don't mean magic ploughs, more like a magic crown that increases loyalty, or a gemstone that affects stability as long as it remains within the Kingdom?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Pathfinder RPG version of the Stronghold Builder's Guide. The super expanded version with city and kingdom building rules too.
We wants it, my precious.
We wants it, too, along with epic construction rules so we can rebuild the bridges of Thassilon and the Arch of Aroden.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you're looking for a simple suggestion:
I don't think it unreasonable to allow the Leadership feat to grant a bonus to your ruler bonus for whatever your role as leader is. Perhaps +1 per 5 or 10 points of your Leadership score (depending on how big of an effect you wanted it to be).
In terms of an in-game rationale for this bonus, certainly you could appoint a cohort to one of the rulership positions, but the PC skilled in the arts of leadership ought to be a bit more efficient at their role, whatever it may be. For that matter, you could rationalize that their followers are acting as their agents and loyal and efficient infrastructure throughout the kingdom, spreading good word of mouth, setting a good example for others, relaying rumors of unrest or honest assessments of the needs of the kingdom from the grassroots level back to the leadership, and generally being model citizens.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
Thnx! that actually is better. Is there any way we can get a copy of stuff that got cut from kingdom building .... like if you spend the whole month doing 'nothing' you get a +4 on all rolls ie Controll etc. That's kinda important.If they're popular (and they certainly seem to be so far), chances of the kingdom building and city building rules being expanded and included in a stand-alone product at sometime in the future are relatively good. After all, many other new rules conventions that premiered in Pathfinder (traits, chases, haunts, etc.) are appearing in hardcover rulebooks this year.Pathfinder RPG version of the Stronghold Builder's Guide. The super expanded version with city and kingdom building rules too.
We wants it, my precious.
My bad for having some "edition leakage" with the rules. That's the problem with switching over midstream!
If I needed an in-game rationale, I'd just say that Brevoy had been sending advisors to help the PCs learn on the job for that first year or so, but now that they are on their feet (and now that trouble is brewing in Brevoy itself), they are withdrawing their "strategic advisors" and letting the PCs walk on their own two kingdom feet.
|
Creative Director
|
In upcoming issues are there plans to include magic items that can affect the Kingdom rules? I don't mean magic ploughs, more like a magic crown that increases loyalty, or a gemstone that affects stability as long as it remains within the Kingdom?
Nope. Interesting idea, but it's not a direction we went.
|
Creative Director
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Watchtower vs. Barracks: another typo?
Watchtower (6 BP): +1 Stability; +2 Defense Modifier; Unrest –1.
Barracks (12 BP): Defense Modifier +2; Unrest –1.Shouldn't the cost of these by swapped? Otherwise, it's pay more, get less (unless I misunderstood something).
Yeah; that's kinda weird. Swapping the BP costs is a good fix.
I believe that's an artifact from an early playtest that was cut from the final, since we didn't want to make it seem like the only way to get full maximum potential from your kingdom was for the PCs to skip adventures.
Ooooh... I'll be putting that back in.
Just wondering....... what will the costs for armies be? I assume it will be several BP per unit (how large will units be?) in addition to some BP consumption per month?
I expect my players wanting to start building up an army quite quickly (with many Military type of characters including a Cleric of Gorum), thus this would be interesting to know,
|
Creative Director
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just wondering....... what will the costs for armies be? I assume it will be several BP per unit (how large will units be?) in addition to some BP consumption per month?
I expect my players wanting to start building up an army quite quickly (with many Military type of characters including a Cleric of Gorum), thus this would be interesting to know,
Armies will cost money to create and money to maintain. The numbers will be revealed in Pathfinder #35; but saving money would be handy. It's not going to be a HUGE cost... but a well-equipped army of high level soldiers could EASILLY start costing dozens of BP a month if you do crazy things like give them healing potions or magic weapons...
Someone earlier asked about "epic" construction rules, and I have to admit I'm curious about something along the same lines. I'd love the opportunity to construct landmark buildings that have mechanical effects as well as just being awesome. What happens if you build a wonder of the world, as it were? I don't imagine it necessarily needs to work for Kingmaker, but it'd be neat to have for a future GM book.
And perhaps PC's might able to design structures using knowledge: architecture and engineering or something similar to provide unique benefits. I know for one when I get a chance to play at some point I'm going to go crazy with the graph paper.
Watchtower vs. Barracks: another typo?
Watchtower (6 BP): +1 Stability; +2 Defense Modifier; Unrest –1.
Barracks (12 BP): Defense Modifier +2; Unrest –1.Shouldn't the cost of these by swapped? Otherwise, it's pay more, get less (unless I misunderstood something).
Could it be related to the fact that a Town Hall halves the cost of the barracks?
If so, I'd probably drop the barracks to 10 or 8, so that it's cheaper once halved...
And perhaps PC's might able to design structures using knowledge: architecture and engineering or something similar to provide unique benefits. I know for one when I get a chance to play at some point I'm going to go crazy with the graph paper.
You could always give them a BP break with a check. DC20 reduces cost by 1 BP and an additional -1 BP for every 5 over the DC.
So the better they get at it the more "cost cutting" measures they know.
|
In upcoming issues are there plans to include magic items that can affect the Kingdom rules? I don't mean magic ploughs, more like a magic crown that increases loyalty, or a gemstone that affects stability as long as it remains within the Kingdom?Nope. Interesting idea, but it's not a direction we went.
I have to echo that sentiment as far as being an interesting idea. Maybe it could be represented in the form of royal regalia where:
The Crown represents "Unity" therefore confers a bonus to Loyalty.
The Sceptre represents "Authority" therefore confers a bonus to Stability.
The Orb represents "Prosperity" therefore confers a bonus to Economy.
How much of a bonus and cost of creation of said bonuses is something that I will try to come up with (and share with all of you) later.
Sounds good Kevida, looking forward to seeing that!
Regarding the "Gaining Experience" section. Is this the amount rewarded to each PC or for the entire party?
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Polyhedron, I really like the issues you're bringing up!
I'm with you on PCs confiscating magic items... it seems a bit absurd to imagine that the king is going off to lead his armies into battle, in defense of the kingdom, yet the best weapon in the kingdom, rather than being in his hands, is in a shop somewhere.
Rather than using loyalty as a mechanism, I'd try to use the economy instead. Maybe that magic item shot is leveraged, and the owner needs to sell that item to make his payments, and when it's taken his business fails and the game mechanic is that the magic item shop is lost?
In my game I'm pretty much going to expect that the PCs 'borrow' magic items that come up on that list from time to time. I imagine that when a lot of players imagine being the king, getting to do this is part of what they have in mind. Why deny them their fun?
With that said, I'm considering toning down what gets generated a bit. Having a 50K magic axe spontaneously show up in a fledgeling kingdom in a backwater sounds kindof odd.
Ken
Your instincts are correct here - if you are going to play a game where the PCs have ready access to magic items that are generated through their kingdom with little consequence, then you absolutely should tone down what is found. By a lot. Otherwise, your PCs at 4th level when Rivers Run Red begin can quite easily be "borrowing" magic items worth 20-60,000 gp as soon as they build a magic shop or cathedral or caster's tower (which they can do quite early on if they decide to spend their BP that way).
Also, you'll need to consider:
1. What you will do about expendable items. You get a lot of scrolls and wands and limited use wondrous items and such. Can PCs borrow those and use PART of them and then give them back? What is the penalty for that?
2. Whether you want to ratchet the toughness of encounters up or the level of treasure down as a result of PCs having ready access to magic loot. Even if they don't "own" the items, they are still using them, and even if they only borrow THIS item this month and THAT item next month, they are still turning over their personal item inventory with both owned and borrowed goods.
3. Whether you want to impose a penalty to Economy rolls, whether all general Economy rolls or certainly the rolls for selling the items they are borrowing. Maybe borrowing an item precludes being able to sell an item that turn at the very least.
The "magic item list" concept is an unusual bit of specificity in what is otherwise a very abstract system. I think you can do it the way you suggest; just think about how it might impact the numbers in the kingdom system and with the regular adventuring gameplay of the PCs.
The Crown represents "Unity" therefore confers a bonus to Loyalty.
The Sceptre represents "Authority" therefore confers a bonus to Stability.
The Orb represents "Prosperity" therefore confers a bonus to Economy.How much of a bonus and cost of creation of said bonuses is something that I will try to come up with (and share with all of you) later.
I think thats a great idea with great fluff.
But you have to give the PCs a reason to take these new items instead of simple stat boosters, which influence Loyalty, Economy and Stability also directly , and are great when adventuring, too.
The word "district" gets used a lot but I'm not seeing the definition? Is it 4 small squares make a district or 36 small squares?
I'm not grasping some of the "halves cost of x" buildings. The Academy is listed as halving the cost of the Library but the Academy is 52 BP while the library is 6. A kingdom can't afford to build an academy at the beginning. Are you supposed to NOT build a library for several years, build your academy when you can afford it, and then build your library? That kind of seems backwards - having a library should make an academy easier to build. Or maybe Civ has hard-wired my brain.
A city district is 36 squares.
And of course you can always build a second library in your city. (which can span multiple districts) at some later stage.
But I agree that it seems strange that you need to build the expensive buildings first to profit most.......
|
|
The Crown represents "Unity" therefore confers a bonus to Loyalty.
The Sceptre represents "Authority" therefore confers a bonus to Stability.
The Orb represents "Prosperity" therefore confers a bonus to Economy.How much of a bonus and cost of creation of said bonuses is something that I will try to come up with (and share with all of you) later.
I think thats a great idea with great fluff.
But you have to give the PCs a reason to take these new items instead of simple stat boosters, which influence Loyalty, Economy and Stability also directly , and are great when adventuring, too.
I have thought of that as well. This is only the "embriotic" <sp?> stage. I am still tinkering with it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just treat withdrawing items from the public the same as withdrawing money. The rules are already there in the Economy phase.
On the matter of PCs wishing to purloin items above their monetary station, I had a couple thoughts:
1- Roleplay and haggle with the vendor. Not just for cash, but I could see a vendor wishing a certain building type would be built next door, etc. That could lower the price some. "I'll sell it to you at cost if you have built a Caster's Tower so I could do some research!"
2- Okay, this might fall out of the Lawful-Good alignment, but how's about a good old-fashioned break-in? Could be its own encounter, as well as incuring whatever fallout might come of some unknown thief stealing an expensive item from one of your loyal subject's stores. Magistrate- "Can you describe the subject?"
Witness- "Well, uh... he looked kinda like Lord Newbie, but I'd never suggest that he would ever...."
Yes, I can see Unrest going up with the second idea. :)
~CO
P.S. - I'm new to the boards, hoping to start a Kingmaker campaign next month, and might I say that Messrs. Jacobs, Nelson, et. al. have created something very exciting, and I can't wait to dive into this AP!
Nice works, Paizo staffs, as always. These rules remind me of Good Old Days of the green box.
I am a little confused by the Edict rules, though.
1) Upkeep Phase Step 2 (Pay Consumption) precedes that month’s Improvement Phase Step 6(Edicts), so how one can determine the increase of Consumption by Edicts? By previous month’s Edicts? Or should a Ruler declare that month’s Edicts before Improvement Phase?
2) More important question. It seems that Festivals are measured by numbers per Year. But Consumption and Loyalty are needed by monthly rate. How does it work? For example, does “No Festival per Year” mean “Loyalty -1 at the end of 12 consecutive months with no Festivals”?
I can rule by myself, but if there are any advices or answers, it would be better.
And perhaps PC's might able to design structures using knowledge: architecture and engineering or something similar to provide unique benefits. I know for one when I get a chance to play at some point I'm going to go crazy with the graph paper.You could always give them a BP break with a check. DC20 reduces cost by 1 BP and an additional -1 BP for every 5 over the DC.
So the better they get at it the more "cost cutting" measures they know.
I was thinking along the lines of having them use knowledge checks to know what bonuses each building might give. If I combined that with your idea of letting profession checks cut cost that would be good, and it would finally give people a mechanical reason to choose the profession skills.
|
Creative Director
|
Nice works, Paizo staffs, as always. These rules remind me of Good Old Days of the green box.
I am a little confused by the Edict rules, though.1) Upkeep Phase Step 2 (Pay Consumption) precedes that month’s Improvement Phase Step 6(Edicts), so how one can determine the increase of Consumption by Edicts? By previous month’s Edicts? Or should a Ruler declare that month’s Edicts before Improvement Phase?
2) More important question. It seems that Festivals are measured by numbers per Year. But Consumption and Loyalty are needed by monthly rate. How does it work? For example, does “No Festival per Year” mean “Loyalty -1 at the end of 12 consecutive months with no Festivals”?
I can rule by myself, but if there are any advices or answers, it would be better.
A change to edicts doesn't affect the consumption for that month; it takes a bit for the change to go into effect, and so won't hit consumption until the next turn's Upkeep.
As for the festivals, the number per year is as much the number you actually hold as it is the number you promise, and the number that the common folk prepare for and look forward to over the months. This assumes that the king isn't lying when he tells the commoners "we'll have 12 festivals this year!" You get the stat changes automatically, in other words; if you reduce the number per year later, the modifiers change then.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
Nice works, Paizo staffs, as always. These rules remind me of Good Old Days of the green box.
I am a little confused by the Edict rules, though.1) Upkeep Phase Step 2 (Pay Consumption) precedes that month’s Improvement Phase Step 6(Edicts), so how one can determine the increase of Consumption by Edicts? By previous month’s Edicts? Or should a Ruler declare that month’s Edicts before Improvement Phase?
2) More important question. It seems that Festivals are measured by numbers per Year. But Consumption and Loyalty are needed by monthly rate. How does it work? For example, does “No Festival per Year” mean “Loyalty -1 at the end of 12 consecutive months with no Festivals”?
I can rule by myself, but if there are any advices or answers, it would be better.
A change to edicts doesn't affect the consumption for that month; it takes a bit for the change to go into effect, and so won't hit consumption until the next turn's Upkeep.
As for the festivals, the number per year is as much the number you actually hold as it is the number you promise, and the number that the common folk prepare for and look forward to over the months. This assumes that the king isn't lying when he tells the commoners "we'll have 12 festivals this year!" You get the stat changes automatically, in other words; if you reduce the number per year later, the modifiers change then.
And, if the king is being a fink by shortchanging the people on their festival days and trying to game the system, feel free to apply a little Unrest early and often as a result.
Nice works, Paizo staffs, as always. These rules remind me of Good Old Days of the green box.
I am a little confused by the Edict rules, though.1) Upkeep Phase Step 2 (Pay Consumption) precedes that month’s Improvement Phase Step 6(Edicts), so how one can determine the increase of Consumption by Edicts? By previous month’s Edicts? Or should a Ruler declare that month’s Edicts before Improvement Phase?
2) More important question. It seems that Festivals are measured by numbers per Year. But Consumption and Loyalty are needed by monthly rate. How does it work? For example, does “No Festival per Year” mean “Loyalty -1 at the end of 12 consecutive months with no Festivals”?
I can rule by myself, but if there are any advices or answers, it would be better.
A change to edicts doesn't affect the consumption for that month; it takes a bit for the change to go into effect, and so won't hit consumption until the next turn's Upkeep.
As for the festivals, the number per year is as much the number you actually hold as it is the number you promise, and the number that the common folk prepare for and look forward to over the months. This assumes that the king isn't lying when he tells the commoners "we'll have 12 festivals this year!" You get the stat changes automatically, in other words; if you reduce the number per year later, the modifiers change then.
Thanks for clarifying!
Just for clarification, I assume Roads are the same as Roads/Trails in chapter 7 of PFRPG Core and not Highways? (Possible area for rules expansion?)
I'm really enjoying these rules so far and look forward to running some kingdom based games even if I don't actually get players to run through Kingmaker proper.
|
Creative Director
|
Just for clarification, I assume Roads are the same as Roads/Trails in chapter 7 of PFRPG Core and not Highways? (Possible area for rules expansion?)
I'm really enjoying these rules so far and look forward to running some kingdom based games even if I don't actually get players to run through Kingmaker proper.
Correct. Roads are roads. Highways are something else entirely, and are beyond the scope of the rules as they currently stand.
The building rules are OGL, yes?
More specifically, I have made a spreadsheet to help me lay out what each building does and costs (updated with the suggested errata), and I was wondering if it would step on any toes to post it here for others to use/put additional eyes on it to proofread it.
The building rules are OGL, yes?
More specifically, I have made a spreadsheet to help me lay out what each building does and costs (updated with the suggested errata), and I was wondering if it would step on any toes to post it here for others to use/put additional eyes on it to proofread it.
I'd love a copy.. tricky dot bob @ sky dot com
I think it shouldn't be an issue. Some of us (including me...) have created spreadsheets including calculation functionality and descriptions and that seemed to be acceptable. (If not..... I will remove mine).
I would be happy to look at your sheet.... I probably still have to implement some of the errate in my own sheet though.
The current sheets I have seen are:
Berhagen's Kingmaker Kingdom Sheet V1.1.
Kingmaker Kingdom Sheet
R-Kelleg's Sheet:
Kingmaker Kingdom Sheet
I think it shouldn't be an issue. Some of us (including me...) have created spreadsheets including calculation functionality and descriptions and that seemed to be acceptable. (If not..... I will remove mine).
I would be happy to look at your sheet.... I probably still have to implement some of the errate in my own sheet though.
The current sheets I have seen are:
Berhagen's Kingmaker Kingdom Sheet V1.1.
Kingmaker Kingdom SheetR-Kelleg's Sheet:
Kingmaker Kingdom Sheet
The 2nd link appears to be broken.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Highways are
four lane roads with no intersections that allow your Sims to travel rapidly from residential zones to their jobs in commercial or industrial zones. They produce large amounts of air pollution, but have relatively little congestion.
A random Sim had this to say about highways: "Mwanna hey boujah nayah!"
But I agree that it seems strange that you need to build the expensive buildings first to profit most.......
I was thinking...
Clearly the rules are not worded in a way to support the following, but it is possible a GM could apply the discounts retroactively.
Currently if you build an Arena, you save 14 BP when you then build a Garrison. If a GM chose to, the kingdom could get a 14 BP discount when building an Arena after building a Garrison.
It would take a bit more bookkeeping, and it would certainly benefit newer kingdoms quite a bit... But it could be done for those that think that building "up" should get some benefit.
I redid some of the building rules to give you discounts on the big buildings if you have certain other buildings, or to let you upgrade certain structure a la tenement.
i.e. If you have a caster's tower in the city, you reduce the cost of an academy by 5BP. If instead you build the academy over the caster's tower, it only costs you 17BP, but you replace your caster's tower.
|
Correct. Roads are roads. Highways are something else entirely, and are beyond the scope of the rules as they currently stand.Just for clarification, I assume Roads are the same as Roads/Trails in chapter 7 of PFRPG Core and not Highways? (Possible area for rules expansion?)
I'm really enjoying these rules so far and look forward to running some kingdom based games even if I don't actually get players to run through Kingmaker proper.
I'm on a highwayyyyyy to Hell!
Life is a hiiiiiiiiiiighway! I wanna riiiiiide it all night long!!!!
[please feel free to continue finding song-bits related to highways.... :P]
Correct. Roads are roads. Highways are something else entirely, and are beyond the scope of the rules as they currently stand.Just for clarification, I assume Roads are the same as Roads/Trails in chapter 7 of PFRPG Core and not Highways? (Possible area for rules expansion?)
I'm really enjoying these rules so far and look forward to running some kingdom based games even if I don't actually get players to run through Kingmaker proper.
I'm on a highwayyyyyy to Hell!
Life is a hiiiiiiiiiiighway! I wanna riiiiiide it all night long!!!!
[please feel free to continue finding song-bits related to highways.... :P]
On a dark desert highway, cool wind in my hair
On a dark desert highway, cool wind in my hairCorrect. Roads are roads. Highways are something else entirely, and are beyond the scope of the rules as they currently stand.Just for clarification, I assume Roads are the same as Roads/Trails in chapter 7 of PFRPG Core and not Highways? (Possible area for rules expansion?)
I'm really enjoying these rules so far and look forward to running some kingdom based games even if I don't actually get players to run through Kingmaker proper.
I'm on a highwayyyyyy to Hell!
Life is a hiiiiiiiiiiighway! I wanna riiiiiide it all night long!!!!
[please feel free to continue finding song-bits related to highways.... :P]
I am not your rolling wheel... I am the highway