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Kingdom Building


Kingmaker

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Renvale987 wrote:

Question about the hex map.

My players, the lovely group of expansionists that they are, have already expressed interests in expanding the kingdom outside the maps that are given in the adventure paths. Honestly, I could see them moving into Brevoy (yes, I'm aware that would be war), but they see the nobles of Brevoy as squabbling bastards who don't take care of their people. My question is how do we convert the nation of Brevoy into a hex map? Is there a formula, has someone already done it? Can I somehow use the map given with the Inner Sea guide to make the conversion? It would just make expansion easier using the hex system. Any help would be appreciated.

Before you go to that much trouble, point out to your group that Brevoy is bigger than California in land area (125 sqaure miles/hex) as compared to all of the Stolen Lands put together being equivalent to Indiana. And Brevoy's been around a lot longer. They might want get 20 years under their belts before moving against a nation that much larger than thiers.

If thst doesn't work, check out the Mass Combat and Fste of Pitax threads.

Andoran

Renvale987 wrote:

Question about the hex map.

My players, the lovely group of expansionists that they are, have already expressed interests in expanding the kingdom outside the maps that are given in the adventure paths. Honestly, I could see them moving into Brevoy (yes, I'm aware that would be war), but they see the nobles of Brevoy as squabbling bastards who don't take care of their people. My question is how do we convert the nation of Brevoy into a hex map? Is there a formula, has someone already done it? Can I somehow use the map given with the Inner Sea guide to make the conversion? It would just make expansion easier using the hex system. Any help would be appreciated.

It would probably be a very large amount of work.

If your players really want to go this route, they should all help with the mapmaking...
-Kle.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Renvale987 wrote:

Question about the hex map.

My players, the lovely group of expansionists that they are, have already expressed interests in expanding the kingdom outside the maps that are given in the adventure paths. Honestly, I could see them moving into Brevoy (yes, I'm aware that would be war), but they see the nobles of Brevoy as squabbling bastards who don't take care of their people. My question is how do we convert the nation of Brevoy into a hex map? Is there a formula, has someone already done it? Can I somehow use the map given with the Inner Sea guide to make the conversion? It would just make expansion easier using the hex system. Any help would be appreciated.

I too would be interested in a Hex map of Brevoy.


I spent a little time this morning trying to figure out the whole hex map thing. Here's what I came up with:

You take the Inner Sea region map from the Inner Sea region book (the big fold out one, not the one in the front of the book). I then figured out the area's you explore when it comes to the Kingmaker modules. Essentially, each Hex map, when overlaid on top of the Inner Sea region map, is 8cm long and 4cm wide. So, if your PC's were to invade Mevon (the city just south of them), you would measure out 4cm by 8cm on the Inner Sea fold-out map, putting Mevon in the middle of a hex map that you get from the Player's Guide. You now have hexes to explore and sites to deal with.

I hope this makes sense, I'm not sure if I'm explaining it correctly. If you guys want/need clarification I'll re-check this thread over the next few days to do if there is any interest.

As well, after counting the number of explorable areas when it came to each module, I came up with a rough formula (I have no idea if this is how they did it or if it was even on purpose).

Wilderness/Mountains/Swamp/Forest Area Hex map with no large towns in it(Rivers Run Red type map)= 26 sites/explorable areas

Areas around a larger town= 16 Explorable areas with quests in town and such.

A Hex map around say a place like Absalom= 8 explorable areas with quests within the city (this last one is not addressed in the Kingmaker modules, so I went with my gut on this one).

Not sure if this helps anyone. I apologize for the long post.


Pathfinder Tales Subscriber

Today Jon Brazer Enterprises updated the PDF of their Book of the River Nations: Complete Player's Reference for Kingdom Building.

From the email I received:

Quote:
"... second printing incorporates the errata from the first printing and clarifies a few points of confusion."

Anyone discover yet what errata and points these are, exactly?

I had no luck in a quick search and don't have the time to make a page by page comparison.

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

Elucidarian wrote:
Anyone discover yet what errata and points these are, exactly?

Mostly minor phrasings, nothing earth shattering. The single biggest thing is the Devout Healer PrC. The capstone ability use to be called Empower Healing in the Table and Maximize Healing in the description. The table has been updated to Maximize Healing. The real changes were made between the PDF series and the first printing, so the second printing had very few differences.


Diego Rossi wrote:


You should consider that in a medieval city there was a good number of fields and vegetable gardens near the houses, and most of the houses were 1 or 2 story buildings.

So probably most of the block is fields, gardens and streets.
Still large, but the constructed part not so big at it can seem.

Sorry to correct you, but in medival town or city, space was precious as it had to be protected by a town wall. There were no gardens and fields inside a town (exception are the parks and meadows of the noble villas).

The gardens and fields were outside the town walls.

The statement that the most of the houses were 2-story is correct.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
endier wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


You should consider that in a medieval city there was a good number of fields and vegetable gardens near the houses, and most of the houses were 1 or 2 story buildings.

So probably most of the block is fields, gardens and streets.
Still large, but the constructed part not so big at it can seem.

Sorry to correct you, but in medival town or city, space was precious as it had to be protected by a town wall. There were no gardens and fields inside a town (exception are the parks and meadows of the noble villas).

The gardens and fields were outside the town walls.

The statement that the most of the houses were 2-story is correct.

This is my understanding as well. Look at any medieval city that has survived to this day. They are as tightly packed together as you can get, and modern cars have issues. Population densities were higher in medieval cities than they are in many modern ones.

My solution has been to divide sizes in half. The only affect this has had on my game so far is allowing a Locate Object spell to affect more city blocks than normal. This allowed the players to cover a greater area with a single cast and find the object when they otherwise wouldn't have with that casting.


endier wrote:

...in medival town or city, space was precious as it had to be protected by a town wall.

The statement that the most of the houses were 2-story is correct.

+1

In fact, just watched a documentary last night about London in it's
medieval years.
One comment was that the population of a city was crammed into the size
of a village.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Philip Knowsley wrote:
endier wrote:

...in medival town or city, space was precious as it had to be protected by a town wall.

The statement that the most of the houses were 2-story is correct.

+1

In fact, just watched a documentary last night about London in it's
medieval years.
One comment was that the population of a city was crammed into the size
of a village.

Hey I just watched that also. Pretty interesting.


PJ wrote:
Hey I just watched that also. Pretty interesting.

Yup - we thought so too.

You a kiwi - or we just getting same shows around the globe...?

Andoran

Golarion is not a medieval setting, nor is it really anything at all like one.
-Kle.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Klebert L. Hall wrote:

Golarion is not a medieval setting, nor is it really anything at all like one.

-Kle.

No, its more Renaissance, which has just as high, or higher, population density.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
PJ wrote:
Philip Knowsley wrote:
endier wrote:

...in medival town or city, space was precious as it had to be protected by a town wall.

The statement that the most of the houses were 2-story is correct.

+1

In fact, just watched a documentary last night about London in it's
medieval years.
One comment was that the population of a city was crammed into the size
of a village.
Hey I just watched that also. Pretty interesting.

Population density was brought up in an earlier Kingmaker thread and it has to be remembered that without a modern transportation system people, along with their entire family, had to live within walking distance of where they worked.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

In order to make some pretty deep changes to the city building subsystem, I've developed some statistics and analysis of the city buildings that I think others might find useful, so I am presenting the statistics here.

First, below is a list of the city buildings and the most important raw data (including errata posted on the boards). Sorry for the formatting, couldn't figure out how to have tables or fixed-width fonts.

raw data:

Name Cost Economy Loyalty Stability Defense Unrest Minor Item Medium Item Major Item Adj House Space Base Value Half Cost Edicts Bonus
Academy 52 2 2 3 2 2 Caster's Tower, Library
Alchemist 18 1 1 1 1 1000
Arena 40 1 4 4 Garrison, Theater Festival
Barracks 6 2 -1 1
Black Market 50 2 1 1 2 1 1 2 1 2000
Brewery 6 1 1 1
Brothel 4 1 2 2 1 1
Caster's Tower 30 1 1 3 2 1
Castle 54 2 2 2 8 -4 4
Cathedral 58 4 -4 3 2 4 Promotion
City Wall 8 4 -2 0
Dump 4 1 1 1
Exotic Craftsman 10 1 1 1 1 1
Garrison 28 2 2 -2 2 Town Wall, Granary, Jail
Granary 12 1 1 1
Graveyard 4 1 1
Guildhall 34 2 2 1 2 Pier, Stable, Tradesman
Herbalist 10 1 1 1 1 1
House 3 -1 1
Inn 10 1 1 1 1 500
Jail 14 2 2 -2 1
Library 6 1 1 1
Luxury Store 28 1 2 1 1 2000
Magic Shop 68 1 4 2 1 2 1 2000
Mansion 10 1 1
Market 48 2 2 2 2 2 2000 Black Market, Inn, Shop
Mill 6 1 1 1
Monument 6 3 -1 1
Noble Villa 24 1 1 1 2 Exotic Craftsman, Luxury Store, Mansion
Park 4 1 -1 1
Piers 16 1 1 1 1000
Shop 8 1 1 1 500
Shrine 8 1 -1 1 1
Smith 6 1 1 1
Stable 10 1 1 1 1 500
Tannery 6 1 1 1
Tavern 12 1 1 1 1 500
Temple 32 2 2 -2 2 2 Graveyard, Monument, Shrine
Tenement 1 2 1
Theater 24 2 2 2 Brothel, Park, Tavern
Town Hall 22 1 1 1 2 Barracks, Dump, Watchtower
Tradesman 10 1 1 1 1 500
Watchtower 12 1 2 -1 1
Waterfront 90 4 3 2 1 4 4000 Guildhall, Market Tax

Next, below is a table of "massaged" data. This is the same data as above, except:
* Houses (and tenaments)are removed, but a house is assumed to be added to the cost and benefits of any building that needs one. E.g. originally an inn cost 10 BP and has +1 Economy, +1 Stability, 1 space, needs house; now an inn cost 13 BP and has +1 Economy, +1 Stability, -1 Unrest, 2 spaces.
* Base GP values are represented in 1000s
* Half-Value indicates the number of buildings that can be built at half-value.
* Edicts is either 0 for nothing special, or 1 for reducing edict costs.

massaged data:

Name Cost Economy Loyalty Stability Defense Unrest Minor Item Medium Item Major Item Adj House Space Base Value (000s) Half Cost Edicts Bonus
Academy 52 2 2 3 2 2 2
Alchemist 21 1 -1 1 2 1
Arena 40 1 4 4 2 1
Barracks 6 2 -1 1
Black Market 56 2 1 -1 2 1 1 3 2
Brewery 6 1 1 1
Brothel 7 1 2 1 2
Caster's Tower 30 1 1 3 2 1
Castle 54 2 2 2 8 -4 4
Cathedral 58 4 -4 3 2 4 1
City Wall 8 4 -2 0
Dump 4 1 1 1
Exotic Craftsman 13 1 1 -1 1 2
Garrison 28 2 2 -2 2 3
Granary 12 1 1 1
Graveyard 4 1 1
Guildhall 37 2 2 -1 3 3
Herbalist 13 1 1 -1 1 2
Inn 13 1 1 -1 2 0.5
Jail 14 2 2 -2 1
Library 6 1 1 1
Luxury Store 31 1 -1 2 2 2
Magic Shop 74 1 2 4 2 1 3 2
Mansion 10 1 1
Market 54 2 2 -2 2 4 2 3
Mill 6 1 1 1
Monument 6 3 -1 1
Noble Villa 24 1 1 1 2 3
Park 4 1 -1 1
Piers 16 1 1 1 1
Shop 11 1 -1 2 0.5
Shrine 8 1 -1 1 1
Smith 6 1 1 1
Stable 13 1 1 -1 2 0.5
Tannery 6 1 1 1
Tavern 15 1 1 -1 2 0.5
Temple 32 2 2 -2 2 2 3
Theater 24 2 2 2 3
Town Hall 22 1 1 1 2 3
Tradesman 13 1 1 -1 2 0.5
Watchtower 12 1 2 -1 1
Waterfront 90 4 3 2 1 4 4 2 1

A few initial observations that don't take much analysis:

* There is a wide variation in the building costs that cannot be explained by the numbers. Consider the Mansion (cost 10 BP, +1 Stability) vs the Dump (cost 4 BP, +1 Economy, +1 Stability). The Mansion costs over double, and provides roughly half the bonuses. Other buildings that seem underpriced include the Library, Mill, Monument, Park, Smith, Stable, Tannery. Buildings that seem overpriced include Pier, Tavern, Tradesman. These variations are relatively simple to identify because they don't involve large numbers and are mostly restricted to Economy, Loyalty and Stability modifiers.

* As buildings get larger and more complex, they seem to be _less_ efficient than a group of smaller buildings. Compare, e.g., the Temple (cost 32 BP) vs 4 Shrines (cost 32 BP). The Temple has +2 Loyalty, +2 Stability, -2 Unrest, and produces 2 minor items (only 1 of which can be sold each turn) and takes 2 spaces. 4 Shrines have +4 Stability, -4 Unrest, and produces 4 minor (all 4 of which can be sold each turn if the shrines are in different districts) and takes 4 spaces. While the Temple is smaller and nets 2 Stability, it would be difficult to believe that it is a better value than 4 Shrines. And the Market is an even worse value!

Next, I used some very simple linear programming techniques to reverse engineer the cost of various building bonuses. The formula I ended up with is as follows:

Cost =
3*Economy +
2*Loyalty +
4*Stability +
3*Defense +
4*Max Item Sale +
10*Base GP Value +
4*Number of Building Cost Reductions +
2*(1 if building reduces edicts, 0 otherwise)

This formula has an average error of 20%, with a minimum error of 0% and a maximum error of 61%. The analysis is obviously not rigorous (I have only sought linear solutions expressed as integers to keep the analysis simple). Nevertheless, it is useful to think about as a starting point.

One way to interpret this formula is to mean, e.g., that each point of Economy modifier should increase the cost of a building by 3 BP and that an increase in Base GP value of 1,000 should increase the BP cost by 10.

If done naively, I think this is a mistake since it fails to account for the less efficient larger and more complex buildings noted above.

Of particular interest is comparing the "return on investment" in various types of investment. Consider,
* Farmlands (mostly) cost 2 BP and reduce Consumption by 2 BP per turn. While reducing Consumption is not as good as pure BP, to a first degree of approximation, the monthly return on investment in Farmlands is 100%
* Buildings with Economy bonuses generally cost about 3 BP per +1 Economy. Assuming that the kingdom makes the Economy check, Economy divided by 5 yields BP. Thus the monthly return on investment is about 1/15 or 6%. Moreover, there are few buildings with a pure emphasis on Economy, so it is relatively hard to grow the economy by increasing the Economy bonus.
* Buildings in the magic item economy cost about 4 BP per the maximum per turn sale value, 2, 8 or 15 (i.e. since a building can sell no more than 1 item per month, no matter how many items it can sell, typically only 1 of the highest value items will be sold). This gives a return on investment of approximately 25% per month.

The implications are that investing in farmlands is the most efficient, but is limited to a kingdom's consumption. Investing in the magic item economy is not as good as farmlands, but much better than investing in Economy buildings, although some Economy is necessary to make the Economy checks necessary to sell magic items.

Next time, I'll post about my proposed changes to the rules


bmcdaniel wrote:

In order to make some pretty deep changes to the city building subsystem, I've developed some statistics and analysis of the city buildings that I think others might find useful, so I am presenting the statistics here.

First, below is a list of the city buildings and the most important raw data (including errata posted on the boards). Sorry for the formatting, couldn't figure out how to have tables or fixed-width fonts.
** spoiler omitted **...

I'm pretty sure Dumps were errated to not provide the economy bonus. That makes them cheaper than the mansion for the same bonus. I believe I saw a suggested errata that a mansion count as a house for prerequisites as well, but I don't remember for sure. Likewise, I think your graveyard doesn't have the errata on it, but I haven't checked. Double check your sources?

Edit: I think that came out harsh. I really like your analysis. Does it account for the "one per city" limit on buildings? Does the analysis change if you separate it out into three tiers, where anything 1-20 BP is TIer 1, anything 21-50 BP is Tier 2 (includes all the buildings that give discounts on T1 buildings), and anything 50 BP+ is Tier 3 (includes everything that gives discounts on T2 buildings)? I'd be interested to see if tier 3 buildings had different formulas than Tier 1 ones, for instance.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Bobson wrote:

I'm pretty sure Dumps were errated to not provide the economy bonus. That makes them cheaper than the mansion for the same bonus. I believe I saw a suggested errata that a mansion count as a house for prerequisites as well, but I don't remember for sure. Likewise, I think your graveyard doesn't have the errata on it, but I haven't checked. Double check your sources?

Edit: I think that came out harsh. I really like your analysis. Does it account for the "one per city" limit on buildings? Does the analysis change if you separate it out into three tiers, where anything 1-20 BP is TIer 1, anything 21-50 BP is Tier 2 (includes all the buildings that give discounts on T1 buildings), and anything 50 BP+ is Tier 3 (includes everything that gives discounts on T2 buildings)? I'd be interested to see if tier 3 buildings had different formulas than Tier 1 ones, for instance.

I incorporated the errata I could find for graveyards (+1 Loyalty only). I couldn't find errata for Dumps or mansions. (I know it is very hard to read the raw data).

Here is how the cost formula came out for different tiers (again, not precise and limited to integer values):

[Original/All Tiers] 42 Buildings; Average Variation 20%
Cost =
3*Economy +
2*Loyalty +
4*Stability +
3*Defense +
4*Max Item Sale +
10*Base GP Value +
4*Number of Building Cost Reductions +
2*(1 if building reduces edicts, 0 otherwise)

[Tier 1] 25 Buildings; Average Variation 19%
Cost =
3*Economy +
2*Loyalty +
3*Stability +
3*Defense +
3*Max Item Sale +
16*Base GP Value

[Tier 2] 11 Buildings; Average Variation 10%
Cost =
3*Economy +
4*Loyalty +
4*Stability +
3*Defense +
3*Max Item Sale +
11*Base GP Value +
4*Number of Building Cost Reductions

[Tier 3] 7 Buildings; Average Variation 12%
Cost =
3*Economy +
6*Loyalty +
4*Stability +
4*Defense +
3*Max Item Sale +
9*Base GP Value +
4*Number of Building Cost Reductions +
2*(1 if building reduces edicts, 0 otherwise)

The numbers move around a little bit, but the largest difference I would pick out is the Loyalty cost which moves from 2 in Tier 1 to 6 in Tier 3. I attribute this largely to the cheap Monument building.

I also re-ran the analysis, removing the mansion and dump, and got the following formula.
Cost =
3*Economy +
3*Loyalty +
3*Stability +
3*Defense +
3*Max Item Sale +
12*Base GP Value +
4*Number of Building Cost Reductions +
8*(1 if building reduces edicts, 0 otherwise)

The major difference is the edict coefficient, which is obviously very sensitive to the difference between tier 1 and tier 3 buildings. Otherwise, the numbers all move towards 3 (which is to be expected when you remove outliers).

All in all, I'm actually pleasantly surprised at about robust the analysis is. One could make a very abstract system where every 3 BP spent on a city gains +1 to either Economy, Loyalty, Stability or Defense, and it should not unbalance the system.

Andoran

Caineach wrote:
Klebert L. Hall wrote:

Golarion is not a medieval setting, nor is it really anything at all like one.

-Kle.
No, its more Renaissance, which has just as high, or higher, population density.

"More" Renaissance, sure.

"Actually even vaguely like the Renaissance", not so much.

The ubiquitous high magic and super-science kind of kick the pee out of that idea.
-Kle.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I came to the same conclusions of 3BP/+1 when I ran the numbers (though did not do as rigorous an examination). I was working to reballance the magic item sales myself, and turn magic item sales into slightly better than investing in ecconomy for BP generation, but not by so much as to be unballancing. As it stands, they are grossly underpriced.


Very interesting.

Can you post a list of buildings sorted by the difference between their expected BP cost (based on the 3 per +1 formula) and their actual cost? I'm curious to see if there's any pattern to what's overpriced vs what's underpriced, or if I want to make changes for my game to bring the outliers in.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Bobson wrote:

Very interesting.

Can you post a list of buildings sorted by the difference between their expected BP cost (based on the 3 per +1 formula) and their actual cost? I'm curious to see if there's any pattern to what's overpriced vs what's underpriced, or if I want to make changes for my game to bring the outliers in.

I've run the analysis twice using different cost predictions. First is a list sorted by percentage difference between actual cost and predicted cost using the solution found by linear programming (shown below). Note that this list has been adjusted to assume that every building that needs one has built a house.

Cost =
3*Economy +
2*Loyalty +
4*Stability +
3*Defense +
4*Max Item Sale +
10*Base GP Value +
4*Number of Building Cost Reductions +
2*(1 if building reduces edicts, 0 otherwise)

Spoiler:

Name Cost Pred Cost % Err
Black Market 56 90 -61%
City Wall 8 12 -50%
Dump 4 6 -50%
Waterfront 90 120 -33%
Shrine 8 10 -25%
Caster's Tower 30 37 -23%
Mill 6 7 -17%
Smith 6 7 -17%
Tannery 6 7 -17%
Exotic Craftsman 13 15 -15%
Magic Shop 74 83 -12%
Theater 24 26 -8%
Herbalist 13 14 -8%
Piers 16 17 -6%
Academy 52 50 4%
Alchemist 21 21 0%
Barracks 6 6 0%
Brewery 6 6 0%
Brothel 7 7 0%
Luxury Store 31 31 0%
Market 54 54 0%
Monument 6 6 0%
Temple 32 32 0%
Town Hall 22 21 5%
Tradesman 13 12 8%
Noble Villa 24 21 13%
Garrison 28 24 14%
Jail 14 12 14%
Library 6 5 17%
Watchtower 12 10 17%
Castle 54 42 22%
Inn 13 10 23%
Stable 13 10 23%
Shop 11 8 27%
Cathedral 58 40 31%
Arena 40 27 33%
Tavern 15 10 33%
Guildhall 37 22 41%
Granary 12 6 50%
Graveyard 4 2 50%
Park 4 2 50%
Mansion 10 4 60%

Next is the same list sort using the cost prediction you asked for, i.e. Cost = 3*(Economy+Loyalty+Stability). Note that this list does a particularly bad job predicting costs because it does not take into account the benefit of item sales, which is a big deal.

Spoiler:

Name Cost Pred Cost % Err
City Wall 8 12 -50%
Dump 4 6 -50%
Monument 6 9 -50%
Brothel 7 9 -29%
Mill 6 6 0%
Smith 6 6 0%
Tannery 6 6 0%
Barracks 6 6 0%
Brewery 6 6 0%
Library 6 6 0%
Jail 14 12 14%
Castle 54 42 22%
Watchtower 12 9 25%
Graveyard 4 3 25%
Park 4 3 25%
Theater 24 12 50%
Granary 12 6 50%
Exotic Craftsman 13 6 54%
Herbalist 13 6 54%
Tradesman 13 6 54%
Inn 13 6 54%
Stable 13 6 54%
Garrison 28 12 57%
Town Hall 22 9 59%
Tavern 15 6 60%
Shrine 8 3 63%
Piers 16 6 63%
Temple 32 12 63%
Noble Villa 24 9 63%
Arena 40 15 63%
Guildhall 37 12 68%
Mansion 10 3 70%
Shop 11 3 73%
Academy 52 12 77%
Market 54 12 78%
Cathedral 58 12 79%
Caster's Tower 30 6 80%
Black Market 56 9 84%
Alchemist 21 3 86%
Waterfront 90 12 87%
Luxury Store 31 3 90%
Magic Shop 74 3 96%


bmcdaniel wrote:


Next is the same list sort using the cost prediction you asked for, i.e. Cost = 3*(Economy+Loyalty+Stability). Note that this list does a particularly bad job predicting costs because it does not take into account the benefit of item sales, which is a big deal.

** spoiler omitted **...

Oops, sorry. I was referring to your

Quote:

Cost =

3*Economy +
3*Loyalty +
3*Stability +
3*Defense +
3*Max Item Sale +
12*Base GP Value +
4*Number of Building Cost Reductions +
8*(1 if building reduces edicts, 0 otherwise)

formula.


Upon first reading the "Sell Valuable Items" step, I thought these were steps in which characters in the party could sell loot they had acquired in order to bolster their own economy. I'm actually a bit surprised that it refers to selling the items randomly generated in specific shops. This strikes me as an odd mechanic for generating revenue for the kingdom, and I don't totally understand it.

In terms of verisimilitude, why does the kingdom get such a large amount of capital from an independent shop selling goods?

My second question would be... will the game still work if I entirely remove this mechanic? It doesn't work for me at the moment. I was also potentially planning on increasing the amount of economy generated by mines and other structures built on resources to compensate if it's necessary.


Creamsteak wrote:

Upon first reading the "Sell Valuable Items" step, I thought these were steps in which characters in the party could sell loot they had acquired in order to bolster their own economy. I'm actually a bit surprised that it refers to selling the items randomly generated in specific shops. This strikes me as an odd mechanic for generating revenue for the kingdom, and I don't totally understand it.

In terms of verisimilitude, why does the kingdom get such a large amount of capital from an independent shop selling goods?

My second question would be... will the game still work if I entirely remove this mechanic? It doesn't work for me at the moment. I was also potentially planning on increasing the amount of economy generated by mines and other structures built on resources to compensate if it's necessary.

The "magic item economy" seems to be a way to reflect the raw economic power of a given kingdom. It would be much better, especially for both versimilitude and for better meshing with the previous rules on magic items available from cities in the CRB, GMG and so forth, if there was a more robust economic engine than the basic Economy check.

A model depicting a no-magic-item economy I think has been previously posted or discussed, although I am not sure as to the specifics.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Creamsteak wrote:
... why does the kingdom get such a large amount of capital ...

First, the problem is the presumption that BP = capital. It doesn't. It's a gross abstraction that gets murkier by the fact that PCs can input money or remove money to modify it. Rather, BP has been shown to be the broad economic capability of the entire system of the country. In effect, the PCs don't go to purchase X building and have it raised (Why, for example, should the rulers purchase a temple? Doesn't that cause a division in loyalty?) but rather it represents the efforts on the part of the PCs and other government rulers (as well as all the subtle trades/negotiations/travel costs/etc performed by the populace) in order to get said structure built. You can, after a fashion, think of it kind of-sort of-ish like hit points: the higher the hit points, the more "damage" the economic system can handle due to instabilities inserted into them (the new buildings) that might otherwise destabilize the nation. The fact that such "damage" actually brings "benefit" (and "heals" itself over time) is just part of the way economics work (more or less). That's a terrible analogy, but, hey, it's the best I got! Others have been far more eloquent than I in describing it.

Short version: BP =/= gold. "BP" isn't actually a spendable resource... it's the general capability of a country's economic system to produce new things.

Creamsteak wrote:
My second question would be... will the game still work if I entirely remove this mechanic? It doesn't work for me at the moment. I was also potentially planning on increasing the amount of economy generated by mines and other structures built on resources to compensate if it's necessary.

Yes. But, from what I understand, armies are very, very expensive, and that's when selling those items comes in very, very handy. So only temporarily.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
endier wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


You should consider that in a medieval city there was a good number of fields and vegetable gardens near the houses, and most of the houses were 1 or 2 story buildings.

So probably most of the block is fields, gardens and streets.
Still large, but the constructed part not so big at it can seem.

Sorry to correct you, but in medival town or city, space was precious as it had to be protected by a town wall. There were no gardens and fields inside a town (exception are the parks and meadows of the noble villas).

The gardens and fields were outside the town walls.

The statement that the most of the houses were 2-story is correct.

Sorry, but as I have actual maps of a medieval towns at hand, it is not true.

Beside that I can take a car and go a few miles from my home town and see wonderful examples of medieval walled towns that had whole hillsides covered with a olive orchard within the town walls.

Take a look to this picture: Marostica.
Here you can see the full extent of the walled part of the town

That is a fairly extreme example but during the medieval and renaissance period the houses were crowded on the street side (with the cited small streets) but almost all had a backyard with a vegetable garden and if possible some hen, a midden and sometime a well.
During the XIV century Padua had a bog and several monasteries with extensive fields within the city walls.
Even today the old part of the city that when seem from street level seem to lack green zones, when seen in aerial photos show a lot of hidden green areas and I can assure that the area within the walls was heavily edified upon in the last 2 centuries.


Tacticslion wrote:
Creamsteak wrote:
... why does the kingdom get such a large amount of capital ...
Short version: BP =/= gold. "BP" isn't actually a spendable resource... it's the general capability of a country's economic system to produce new things.

Capital is not necessarily gold either. Capital in this context is the ability to produce goods and services. Maybe I should say capital + labor in this context, but it's still irrelevant to my query.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Creamsteak wrote:
Capital is not necessarily gold either. Capital in this context is the ability to produce goods and services. Maybe I should say capital + labor in this context, but it's still irrelevant to my query.

I apologize that I misunderstood, as your use of "revenue" makes me think money...

BUT! It's actually not irrelevant to your query, and, although poorly, I attempted to answer you, and I'll do so again... by using a quote from someone else (Jason Nelson) earlier in this thread (around the middle of page 4 of this thread - find "Bob" and it should be easy to locate).

First Question: "why so much capital?"
Answer By Someone Better Than I (Jason Nelson):

Jason Nelson wrote:


The items are owned by undefined people who make them and who play no other role in the kingdom.

But here's the thing I think is confusing for people:

BP is *not* a pile of money in the kingdom's vault.

BP represents all of the human and material resources and the economic activity of the kingdom.

So, when you have no unrest and you make a Stability check, someone doesn't roll up to your palace with a wagon load of 1 BP worth of gold ingots and drop it in the vault. It just means that the combined productivity of the people of your kingdom increases by 1 BP worth of productivity. More logs are sawn into boards. More chickens are raised and laying eggs. More wandering peddlers move from tiny unmarked hamlet to tiny unmarked hamlet selling penny whistles and moon pies. There is peace and order and happiness and prosperity...

... which adds up to the NET WORTH of your kingdom's human and material wealth increasing by 1 BP in equivalent value.

Magic item sales operate on the same principle EXCEPT for the fact that they are attached to specific object--"this wand of darkvision that my Luxury Store rolled up for one of its minor items." Its owners are undefined NPCs. They may have created the item. They may have bought it from someone else. They may have gotten it in trade. The point is that they are buying and selling items all throughout the month, and the BP realized from making your Economy roll to "sell a specific item" is the abstracted form of representing the commerce in magical trinkets and all of the micro-industries that support that trade that this business has been doing all month long.

Your magic item creating buildings are attracting clients coming through town who patronize other businesses, who engage in under-the-table deals for items that don't come up in the public "store window" and they keep other people in business. The caster's tower is employing other people to gather skunk cabbage leaves and eyelashes and gum arabic and sulfur and bat guano and amber rods and wolf fur and all manner of magical stuff, to create flasks and alembics and vials, to chop firewood, to make pots in various sizes and metals, to build new tables and workbenches to replace ones incinerated when experiments occasionally explode, and on and on down the list. Heck, they are hiring bodyguards and trapmakers to defend their valuable stashes and vaults!

The point is this: Selling a magic item for BP is not a one-time over-the-counter transaction. It *looks* like that because that's the way the rules are written - as an abstracted representation. You sell a +2 shield, you get the BP. But the abstraction *REPRESENTS* the whole work of buying and selling magic items and everything around that trade FOR THE ENTIRE MONTH. And...

... the BP that are gained from selling magic items are not gold bars to stick in your vault. It is increased economic and building activity all across your kingdom for the whole month.

It is NOT: "I, King Bob, took this Medium Item from MY caster's tower and sold it to [nameless NPC] for 8 BP. I took 8 BP out of my wallet and went down to the Building Store and bought myself a new Library in Bobville, and look I have 2 BP left over to stick back in my wallet."

It IS: "The citizens of Bobovia work within the magic trade all month long. Many items are bought and sold, including the public sale of Medium Item. The citizens are happy and productive, and at the suggestion of King Bob and his ruling council, over the course of the month have been working on building a library and collecting books for it over in Bobville, surrounded by a new neighborhood* and maybe even private tutors who can educate the citizens of Bobville. It has required much hard work but the citizens are happy and proud of it and are already planning their next project (i.e., have 2 BP yet to spend, even though the final purpose to which it will be put)."

* Remember that every "building" is presumed to include a number of homes scattered around the city "square" where the building is built - a Library is not a 750' x 750' building; it means that this city square has a library per se, but that the neighborhood around it is also generally dedicated to the purpose of education.

BP are almost never in the form of Cash Money in the pockets of YOU, the king and council. BP are everthing that every citizen across your city is doing and building and buying and selling and trading and eating and drinking and growing and sowing and reaping and grinding and collecting and prospecting. You *CONTROL* what happens with everything in the kingdom (which is represented by the BP), because you are the players, but your characters don't *own* everything in the kingdom.

So! I hope that helps.

Sczarni

Dot


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Darksmokepuncher wrote:
Dot

You don't need to DOT stickies brother, they'll be here.


Howdy Folks!
A little background. After the PCs took their Roles and both Ismort and Garress have taken theirs, I hand-waved leaders into the vacant positions for now, each giving a +1 to their respective rolls (the rolls are all falling around +11 to +15 after 12 months). I will probably have these NPCs gradually go away after the second year. I did this to help them get off the ground really.
My players are building the city correctly. It is a fine line of metagaming and rollplaying, but they are not trying to break the system. I have given them the building lists and the various benefits, as well as info on Edicts, Alignments, and the Roles. They keep each other honest for the most part, with only few reminders that they should be promoting buildings their characters would insist on.
That being said, I have a few sanity check questions and a couple others I would like clarification for. This thread has been great for ideas and learning about suggested errata!

1) How do I roll for minor and medium magic items? Is the GameMastery Guide pretty much the best way? And am I mistaken, but minor items will never be expensive enough to sell for BPs during the Econ check? I mean, how many minor items cost 4K gp? And if so, why do we have list BP prices for 'sold' minor items? My group has only built a Herbalist, so I've restricted the minor item to potions for now. Wioll viewing the random charts clear this up for me?

2) Did I read that a House block will only satisfy a Housing PreReq once and will not coulnt for any other future buildings?

3) The lake next to the Stag Lord's fort counts as Waterfront for the Mill, correct?

4) Is it just me, or is that Monster Event pretty much a 'you lose one hex' Event? There are two critters on the Random Monster chart that are CR7 or above...a bunch of Worgs and a bunch of Trolls. I rolled up four trolls on the fourth month's Event. Yeah, the PCs could do nothing about that.

5) Tazelford. I assume this is just an opportunity to start a second city? The PCs would decide what to build there, in what order, spend the BPs, etc?

6) Are there any rules about the lake next to the Fort? I.e. should it be considered a special resource (fishing) and give +1 economy? How would they explore and clear it?

and last but not least...

7) I'm pretty sure I've seen this in the book but cannot currently find it . Do the PCs have to be back in town for their stats to have affect in their Roles. I want to say 'No, of course not.' because otherwise they will not be traveling far away from the city while adventuring. But I just want to make sure.

Thanks for any help anybody can give!


MDR001 wrote:
... 7) I'm pretty sure I've seen this in the book but cannot currently find it . Do the PCs have to be back in town for their stats to have affect in their Roles. I want to say 'No, of course not.' because otherwise they will not be traveling far away from the city while adventuring. But I just want to make sure...

See Leadership Roles, Page 56 of Rivers Run Red. Each kingdom leader is supposed to take a minimum of one week out in every thirty day month to catch up with the paperwork, so to speak. Technically a leader can take that week out in any hex within the kingdom. (All that consumption in BP the kingdom expends every month has to be doing something like funding a messenger service to make sure the paperwork can always find the kingdom's leaders, right? :D)


Charles Evans 25 wrote:
MDR001 wrote:
... 7) I'm pretty sure I've seen this in the book but cannot currently find it . Do the PCs have to be back in town for their stats to have affect in their Roles. I want to say 'No, of course not.' because otherwise they will not be traveling far away from the city while adventuring. But I just want to make sure...

See Leadership Roles, Page 56 of Rivers Run Red. Each kingdom leader is supposed to take a minimum of one week out in every thirty day month to catch up with the paperwork, so to speak. Technically a leader can take that week out in any hex within the kingdom. (All that consumption in BP the kingdom expends every month has to be doing something like funding a messenger service to make sure the paperwork can always find the kingdom's leaders, right? :D)

By the original rules, it can be anywhere in the kingdom. By the River Nations supplement, it has to be the capitol. By my house rules, it needs to be the capitol, unless the PCs arrange in advance for the paperwork to be forwarded somewhere else, in which case they can spend the time there (but they take a minor penalty to kingdom roles).


MDR001 wrote:
1) How do I roll for minor and medium magic items? Is the GameMastery Guide pretty much the best way? And am I mistaken, but minor items will never be expensive enough to sell for BPs during the Econ check? I mean, how many minor items cost 4K gp? And if so, why do we have list BP prices for 'sold' minor items? My group has only built a Herbalist, so I've restricted the minor item to potions for now. Wioll viewing the random charts clear this up for me?

I use the generator at http://www.dunknet.net/pathfinder.aspx. It's a pretty common house rule to allow minor items to be sold for a fraction of a BP, which then accumulates until you've sold 4000gp worth, at which point you get the BP. Don't forget that items with a cost less than the city's base value have a 75% chance to be rerolled.

Quote:
2) Did I read that a House block will only satisfy a Housing PreReq once and will not coulnt for any other future buildings?

Yep. I think it's in a post here in the thread.

Quote:
3) The lake next to the Stag Lord's fort counts as Waterfront for the Mill, correct?

It's entirely up to the players - when they create the city, they can designate each border as being either land or water. The Mill needs to be built along one border that was designated as being a water border. I think you don't even need to have water in the hex to have a water border - it's only the major rivers which are marked, but there are lots of minor ones as well, since they are the River Kingdoms.

Quote:
4) Is it just me, or is that Monster Event pretty much a 'you lose one hex' Event? There are two critters on the Random Monster chart that are CR7 or above...a bunch of Worgs and a bunch of Trolls. I rolled up four trolls on the fourth month's Event. Yeah, the PCs could do nothing about that.

That's why there's an option "If the PCs don't set out to defeat the monster or monsters, a Stability check removes the threat." Of course if that check fails, the hex is lost unless the kingdom had no unrest to begin with, but there's at least an option.

Quote:
5) Tazelford. I assume this is just an opportunity to start a second city? The PCs would decide what to build there, in what order, spend the BPs, etc?

Yes and no. If the PCs don't have that hex claimed, then it becomes an independent city, which gets claimed as per the rules on claiming towns. If they do, then it's just another city (possibly with no cost for clearing the hex).

Quote:
6) Are there any rules about the lake next to the Fort? I.e. should it be considered a special resource (fishing) and give +1 economy? How would they explore and clear it?

Nope. Feel free to add them, but there's nothing special about it per the book. The lake itself doesn't occupy a hex - it's part of several hexes, so once you've claimed all those hexes then you'd own the lake too.

Andoran

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I use the weather of Kiev as a reference for the weather in the Stolen land (the latitude and terrain conformation seem to be a close approximation). Looking the historical data for the wind speeds in the region I think that windmills are feasible too as average wind speed for most months is in the 10 mph range or above.

That should allow you to build mills even when away from rivers.


I don't know if this has been addressed in the thread before, but I need to ask:

Can you build a farm in the same hex as a city? What about a mine? And about the kobolds hex?

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

Rune wrote:
Can you build a farm in the same hex as a city? What about a mine? And about the kobolds hex?

Farm and city in same hex: no. Mine and farm or mine and city: no. They are an either/or situation. You can build a city on the hex the kobolds live in and get the benefit of the resource, or you can build a mine there and enhance the bonus from the resource. Its your call.


Hi all! I've been wanting to try Pathfinder for quite some time, and coupled with the fact that my friends and I are rather enamored of the big picture bits of Birthright and Reign, Kingmaker seemed the obvious starting point! We might even be able to start within the next week....

Anyway, I know it won't be a concern until that twilight bit of downtime between Stolen Lands and Rivers Run Red, but I was wondering about leaders. Specifically, do you need all 11 to be in place when you start up? I haven't seen it in threads, unless I missed it.

First, it seems a little odd to me that a few hexes worth of land with a dinky but growing settlement would have posts such as High Priest, General, Magister, etc. At the same time, it is a burdonsome crutch to saddle a start up colony trying to get out of that first size tier with the penalties accrued by empty posts.

Of course, I realize the kingdom building is abstracted a good deal and we could just handwave away the oddness as lipservice to mechanics... but second, I was also a little worried about the players having close ties to 11 (well, 7, since they will probably be taking seats in leadership) trusted npcs by the end of the first module.

In folks' experience, have you started with empty leadership slots? Does it greatly hamper expansion? Or do you have enough npcs to fill the slots, albeit it a tad unrealistically ("I am the Spymaster/Royal Assassin of Smallvillageshire! Yeah!")?

I'm sure that I'll have more questions (not sure how I fee about the magic item economy, for instance) but thanks in advance for opinions on this first one!

-taej

...and now y'all have been exposed to my love affair with elipses (and parentheses)...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Taejas Kudva wrote:
Hi all!

Hello, and welcome!

I don't GM my King Maker game, but here's how it was handled:
I recruited random NPCs (with 11's in appropriate spots) to fill "leader slots" from the 200-or-so colonists that first came down. In-game, we explained that this was a series of tests that my (very intelligent and charismatic) guy used on a select few who'd been discovered by diplomacy ("gather information" skill is now part of the "diplomacy" skill in Pathfinder). They were given limited-term "generic" leadership spots that just kind of helped settle the town: they had no real authority outside of the PCs, but they did help us run the large number of new people. I explained (diplomatically, of course) that it's likely a limited-term employment, and that basically they were there to report to me (the king) and my closest advisers (the other PCs, who'd taken roles). Then, as we developed strong relationships with other NPCs (including former bad guys!) we've slowly incorporated them instead.

Usually the role of leader in our country hasn't been a solid, unchanging one, with the PCs being the exception... and even then, when my character married the former high priestess, she became Baroness (and then Duchess) and low and behold that changed.

Quite frankly, our government is kind of large, now... but my character doesn't (except for gross violations) "fire" anyone, but rather always "promotes" them via public ceremony... even if the "promotion" means they basically leave the important tasks to other (better suited) people while they basically oversee the people actually in charge, or are shifted to another assignment.

For example, we had an NPC (unnamed here, due to spoilers) who had a background as a noble, but was a fighter. He was our general for a while until I recruited someone better - a kind of dumb barbarian I saved, who was exceptionally strong. So the barbarian became general, meanwhile the former-general became a nobile (a lesser noble title found via wikipedia) and High General in a ceremony that "reinstated" his former nobility (if not his former rank). The High General basically did the thinking while the barbarian (and his high ability score) did the leading. Later said High General became the "ambassador", despite his mediocre charisma, because he was human. The real ambassador was a faerie dragon we recruited who went everywhere with the "ambassador" and used his high charisma and magic to successfully work with any negotiations. Meanwhile, it wasn't an insult to racially-minded people because we sent the "ambassador" - a human - to see them instead of a flighty "fairy". Where the reverse was a good idea, we just sent the dragon.

The NPC's wife is similar (also an unamed-due-to-spoilers NPC, and a female that's supposed to, I believe, have been a PC love-interest, but since I was already taken, I worked to set her up with the above NPC... let's call her "Rogue", since I'm in a marvel comics kind of mood to differentiate). Rogue was a great Spymaster, so that's what I made her. It was nice having the ambassador, general, and spymaster being so close and working so closely together. Later, we recruited someone who was much better in the dexterity department: a fey critter I had transformed to good via magic and a long process of diplomacy. So, she was left as the "spymaster"... meanwhile the fey was put to work in her stead. She's the more charismatic infiltrator part of the equation, but he's the stealthier one who all the underworld contacts "know" to provide information to (and since he's invisible most of the time, all the better!).

And that's pretty much how it's gone for us: find someone knew, replace them, upgrade or "side-grade" (at worst) the old guy in favor of the new.

Anyway, that's how we've handled it. Your group will probably do something different, and that's fine: just don't get too caught up on the "once the role is given it is forever!" thing. Also allow your people to upgrade the NPCs... 'cause seriously. Yes, I'm an adventurer, but if I'd like to invest into my kingdom's good running, I should be able to do it... :)

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

Hey Taejas Kudva

Tacticslion wrote:
I recruited random NPCs (with 11's in appropriate spots) to fill "leader slots"

This is pretty much the best way to handle it. NPCs you meet while exploring the land work great to help fill out your leadership roles.

As kingdom building progresses, the additions you make to your kingdom give a larger bonus. But when you're starting off, you don't have anything so your leaders are the only bonuses you have. So filling them quickly are vital. And while you might not have a "high priest" and a "general" while your kingdom is a glorified cleared field and nothing else, you may have a "spiritual leader" and a "captain of the guard". They serve the same role and give the same bonus. Feel free to change the names of the posts. Let them grow as the kingdom grows.

[shameless plug]
Alot of people have found the Book of the River Nations to be quite helpful with the new rules in Kingmaker. Its the Exploration, Kingdom Building and Mass Combat rules all in one player-safe, spoiler-free book.
[/shameless plug]


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Rune wrote:

I don't know if this has been addressed in the thread before, but I need to ask:

Can you build a farm in the same hex as a city? What about a mine? And about the kobolds hex?

Rules say you can't build a farm in a city hex. This never made much sense to me since a city is about 1 square mile and a hex is more than 100 square miles, and most food comes from farms near the city (where "near" could also mean "by river transport", boats being much easier than wagons) so I let my players build farms in their city hexes, assuming the terrain was suitable.


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Thanks for the suggestions. I know that at least one of my players will take what an outside observer might mistake as sadistic glee in shifting npcs around like marionettes tied to his grubby, scheming, manipulating... er, ahem, his fingers. Yes, pushing them into place with his fingers.

In the spirit of finding any old yayhoo with a mediocre atribute score to act as a leadership placeholder, I thought of allowing the kingdom to get by with fewer positions occupied. The empty positions grant no bonus, obviously, but cause no penalty:

size<=10........ req 5 leadership roles (ruler manditory, natch)
10<size<=25.. req 8 leadership roles
size 26+......... req all roles

My hope, of couse, is that their ambition will drive them fill in the phantom roles earlier. It's only to their benefit, after all.

I also really like the suggestion of the roles being jobs with different possible names, because it appeases my completely unrulesy sensibilities as far as scale. A ruler could be a mayor until somebody insists that he start calling himself Duke....

And consider your shameless plug utilized. My friendly gamestore owner thanks you. :)

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
tonyz wrote:
Rune wrote:

I don't know if this has been addressed in the thread before, but I need to ask:

Can you build a farm in the same hex as a city? What about a mine? And about the kobolds hex?

Rules say you can't build a farm in a city hex. This never made much sense to me since a city is about 1 square mile and a hex is more than 100 square miles, and most food comes from farms near the city (where "near" could also mean "by river transport", boats being much easier than wagons) so I let my players build farms in their city hexes, assuming the terrain was suitable.

Look the city consumption against its population.

I am going from memory, but if I recall exactly it is 1 point for each district of the city. But a district can house up to 9.000 people, not the usual 250presents in a hex.
So the city population is already farming extensively all the territory in the city hex so adding a farm will do nothing as the territory in the city hex is already all farmed.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Taejas Kudva wrote:

Thanks for the suggestions. I know that at least one of my players will take what an outside observer might mistake as sadistic glee in shifting npcs around like marionettes tied to his grubby, scheming, manipulating... er, ahem, his fingers. Yes, pushing them into place with his fingers.

In the spirit of finding any old yayhoo with a mediocre atribute score to act as a leadership placeholder, I thought of allowing the kingdom to get by with fewer positions occupied. The empty positions grant no bonus, obviously, but cause no penalty:

size<=10........ req 5 leadership roles (ruler manditory, natch)
10<size<=25.. req 8 leadership roles
size 26+......... req all roles

My hope, of couse, is that their ambition will drive them fill in the phantom roles earlier. It's only to their benefit, after all.

I also really like the suggestion of the roles being jobs with different possible names, because it appeases my completely unrulesy sensibilities as far as scale. A ruler could be a mayor until somebody insists that he start calling himself Duke....

And consider your shameless plug utilized. My friendly gamestore owner thanks you. :)

Use total population, not hexes, a hex with 250 people in it is easier to comand that a partially filled city quarter with 2500 people.

Andoran

Diego Rossi wrote:


Look the city consumption against its population.
I am going from memory, but if I recall exactly it is 1 point for each district of the city. But a district can house up to 9.000 people, not the usual 250presents in a hex.
So the city population is already farming extensively all the territory in the city hex so adding a farm will do nothing as the territory in the city hex is already all farmed.

Yes, that is it exactly.

-Kle.


I apologize if this was answered earlier in the thread but...

How much time am I supposed to allow my players to build up their city? My players like sitting around and building up their kingdom... so 4 years into the campaign, they still have not ventured much beyond the couple surrounding squares. They have also discovered that you can just withdraw BP in gc a long as you have a high enough stability to counteract the unrest easily and a Royal Assassin to take it off.

Any ideas on how to coax the players to go out exploring? And discourage them from just accumulating huge amounts of wealth? There doesn't seem to be a lotta campaign hooks to encourage the players to explore, nor does it seem like there is any sort of time pressure!

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

vip00 wrote:

How much time am I supposed to allow my players to build up their city? My players like sitting around and building up their kingdom... so 4 years into the campaign, they still have not ventured much beyond the couple surrounding squares. They have also discovered that you can just withdraw BP in gc a long as you have a high enough stability to counteract the unrest easily and a Royal Assassin to take it off.

Any ideas on how to coax the players to go out exploring? And discourage them from just accumulating huge amounts of wealth? There doesn't seem to be a lotta campaign hooks to encourage the players to explore, nor does it seem like there is any sort of time pressure!

I assume a year between each module. But you can do however you want. THere is no set rule between each.

Yea, I've noticed that unrest really is not much of a deterrent. If I did a 2nd edition of the Kingdom Building rules, I'd make unrest a bit more of an active threat.

Spoiler:

I'm guessing you're between module 1 and 2 and they pretty much just have their capital and a few hexes around them and are leaving the rest alone. The easy answer is to set up a bandit kindgom in the green belt. If the players aren't using it, then they won't mind if someone else takes territory that is not being protected by them. Then make that alternate kingdom a threat.

Idea 2, monsters settle into the unclaimed lands. The trolls and the owlbear are both given instructions to attack the players kingdom. Make them do it. Don't make it a vague threat. Make it an active threat. Choose the kingdom event but make it something like "Trade is disrupted. Take a -5 to all economy checks until they deal with the problem." If that doesn't work after 3-4 months, make the people upset because the kingdom is not dealing with the problem. The kingdom generates +1 unrest every turn and make it increase by +1 every month. So month 2 its +2, +3 for month 3, etc.

I wouldn't recommend just making Varnhold vanish before they've completed adventure 2, but I wouldn't give them a year off either. If they've already had 4 years off, I'd do adventure's 2-4 back to back.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
vip00 wrote:

I apologize if this was answered earlier in the thread but...

How much time am I supposed to allow my players to build up their city? My players like sitting around and building up their kingdom... so 4 years into the campaign, they still have not ventured much beyond the couple surrounding squares. They have also discovered that you can just withdraw BP in gc a long as you have a high enough stability to counteract the unrest easily and a Royal Assassin to take it off.

Any ideas on how to coax the players to go out exploring? And discourage them from just accumulating huge amounts of wealth? There doesn't seem to be a lotta campaign hooks to encourage the players to explore, nor does it seem like there is any sort of time pressure!

What hexagons have been occupied by your guys? Unless they have build their capital at Oleg Trading post they probably aren't connected to Brevory by claimed hexes. So trade is dangerous and unprotected.

Unless they cover all the nation consumption with the products of their farms they need to import food. Make it price spike as there isn't a safe trade route.
Reduce economy gains for activities that sell stuff that isn't of immediate interest for the local economy.

A big bandit organization like the one lead by the Stag lord is a good target for heroic PC, so they could be willing to go out and adventure to remove them.
On the opposite side, if you want to motivate them into developing the territory, make your bandits operate in groups of a few low level guys, assaulting only easy targets.
The third or fourth time the Warden or the Sheriff had to go out and hunt 2 level 1 warrior the player will start to push for the development of a safe trade route.

Being a long time player of Civilization with several other players at the table, the development of a kingdom will be something I will enjoy, so my project is for a long campaign (both in playing time, as I will start to use the slow advancement track at level 8 and in character time, as I count on making it last about 20 years in game time), but the feeling that I want to get into the players is that their character life is busy.
So the kingdom development will happen mostly through e-mails, like most of the winter months will be resolved that way, while when we will meet at the gaming table we will be playing the exciting adventures and problems that the characters face.

About the withdrawing money part: royalty and nobility had always used some of their land wealth for personal purposes. I think it would be reasonable to give some kind of stipend or allowance to the characters covering government roles while at the same time increase the negative effects of further withdraws from the kingdom founds.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Dale, I feel that the positive effect of a high tax rate for the kingdom coffers is practically non-existent.
Unless I am reading something wrong it is only a +4 to economy, so approximately 1/BP month, independently from the kingdom size.

I was thinking to change so that the BP production increase/decrease is proportional to the total kingdom economy.

it will be something like this:

Taxation Level...Economy roll...Economy roll...Loyalty......Unrest
..........................divisor..........modifier........modifier
None .................... 1/7 ............ +4 ............ +1 ........... -1
Light ................... 1/6 ............ +2 ............ -1 ............ 0
Normal .................. 1/5 ............ +0 ............ -2 .............. 0
Heavy .................. 1/4 ............ -2 ............. -4 ............ +2
Overwhelming .......... 1/3 ............ -4 ............. -8 ............ +4

To explain my table above (I hope the formatting will survive[Edit:it didn't, so the current form]):

Economy roll divisor is the number by which you divide your economy check in the generate income phase. As your taxation rate decrease you get less money for the kingdom coffers.

Economy roll modifier is the number added or subtracted to your economy roll in the same phase. Your kingdom would get less money with a lower taxation rate but its economy will grow faster.

Loyalty modifier and Unrest modifier: I think they are self explanatory. less taxes, more happy citizens.
The loyalty modifier is higher than the unrest level as I feel that only heavy taxes will generate rioting. As long as you apply what is a normal level of taxation you will get some people badmouthing the government, but not violent demonstrations.

What do you think?

I would like to link the population increase to the loyalty value fo the kingdom, but that is more difficult.

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

Diego Rossi wrote:
Dale, I feel that the positive effect of a high tax rate for the kingdom coffers is practically non-existent.

I'm noticing that as well. Not to mention the negative impact is not having much of an impact as well. Build a cathedral and a pair of brothels and you negate the negative impact of a high tax rate. Plus you have a larger impact on your economy by having promotion edicts cut in half. People don't mind a crippling tax rate if they have a expensive church to give money to and brothel to screw them out of their money. ;)

Things that should be making a big impact are not making much of an impact at all. A 2nd edition of the BotRN is probably in the card, but not in the next year. Possibly 2013, but we'll be doing some serious playtesting (and probably some massive overhauling).

Diego Rossi wrote:
What do you think?

Its definitely worth a playtest. Give it a try and let me know what you find.

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