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Hey everyone,
The following scenarios will be retired on 11/15:
PSS # 6: Black Waters
PSS# 11: The Third Riddle
PSS# 12: Stay of Execution
PSS# 19: Skeleton Moon
PSS# 25: Hands of the Muted GodPlease make sure that you have played and REPORTED the events by 11/15. Once the scenarios are retired they will be removed from the reporting system.
And... the promised conversion of 3.5 scenarios has now begun!
Hyrum.
Is there any way we can get a little bit more transparency in knowing why modules were put on "the list"? I know conversion takes awhile in some cases, and you need to limit your work, but sometimes the choices seem arbitrary. Since we're seeing a real problem with having enough low-level modules (confirmed by Erik that you're working on it) it might be nice.
I understand why some (#11 and #19 come immediately to my own mind) are on the chopping block, but others (#6) that have been passed through the grinder are well-received. In fact not only does #6 have a 3.7 rating, it was listed as the "all-time favorite" module by three of the players in my group when I asked them which they liked the best a month or so ago. Compare that to some of the other modules that are surviving to conversion (#13 for example which is very interesting story-wise, but terrible to convert) and the selection process just seems haphazard.
I know you don't want to throw authors under the bus so-to-speak, but when some really good modules are being removed, other not-so-fun modules are being left in, it's disappointing.
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To me, Black Waters is one of those 'you gotta play' scenarios like Silent Tide. It adds value to the uniqueness of the Pathfinder Society play and feel.
Should we create a Web site and Facebook page called, "Save Black Waters"? Is it too late to make the t-shirts and hold a rally? :)
I believe you have till Nov 15th :)
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I'll have to add my voice for love of Black Waters. I can understand #11 and #19 (which have horrible conversion / death factors, albeit #11 has a great module for feel/story). But #6 seems fairly easy to run, great story, and as far as I can tell never was too deadly.
I'll add my voice to the "Save Black Waters!" thread.
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Quick question about the reporting.
Does the data need to be in the system by Sunday at midnight (ie 11/14, 11:59pm) or Monday at midnight (11/15, 11:59pm).
The reason I ask is that I'm coordinating a number of Pathfinder mods at our local convention [MACE in High Point, NC for those who care) which runs from 11/12 to 11/14. Getting all the data input by the end of the day on Sunday might be pushing things.
Joe
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Quick question about the reporting.
Does the data need to be in the system by Sunday at midnight (ie 11/14, 11:59pm) or Monday at midnight (11/15, 11:59pm).
The reason I ask is that I'm coordinating a number of Pathfinder mods at our local convention [MACE in High Point, NC for those who care) which runs from 11/12 to 11/14. Getting all the data input by the end of the day on Sunday might be pushing things.
Joe
Further up thread this:
It's best to assume that if a scenario is retired on 5/24, then you should get your playing/reporting done on or before 5/23. We don't publish the time we shut it off on 5/24, just that it will be shut off that day.
As for reporting scenarios that are retired--they're retired. We have no process for reporting something that's retired, even if you ran it before the retirement date. It's important that GMs/coordinators report in a timely manner and this one a of many reflections why.
coupled with this:
Hey everyone,
The following scenarios will be retired on 11/15:
PSS # 6: Black Waters
PSS# 11: The Third Riddle
PSS# 12: Stay of Execution
PSS# 19: Skeleton Moon
PSS# 25: Hands of the Muted GodPlease make sure that you have played and REPORTED the events by 11/15. Once the scenarios are retired they will be removed from the reporting system.
And... the promised conversion of 3.5 scenarios has now begun!
Hyrum.
I'd say you should have the results reported before your clock rolls over to 11/15.
Director of Brand Strategy
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Is there any way we can get a little bit more transparency in knowing why modules were put on "the list"? I know conversion takes awhile in some cases, and you need to limit your work, but sometimes the choices seem arbitrary. Since we're seeing a real problem with having enough low-level modules (confirmed by Erik that you're working on it) it might be nice.I understand why some (#11 and #19 come immediately to my own mind) are on the chopping block, but others (#6) that have been passed through the grinder are well-received. In fact not only does #6 have a 3.7 rating, it was listed as the "all-time favorite" module by three of the players in my group when I asked them which they liked the best a month or so ago. Compare that to some of the other modules that are surviving to conversion (#13 for example which is very interesting story-wise, but terrible to convert) and the selection process just seems haphazard.
I know you don't want to throw authors under the bus so-to-speak, but when some really good modules are being removed, other not-so-fun modules are being left in, it's disappointing.
There are a lot of factors that come into play in the conversion/retirement process, but none of them really belong in a public forum. The simple fact is that not all 28 scenarios from Season 0 will be updated, and that means we have to get rid of some, and that brings with it some tough choices.
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There are a lot of factors that come into play in the conversion/retirement process, but none of them really belong in a public forum. The simple fact is that not all 28 scenarios from Season 0 will be updated, and that means we have to get rid of some, and that brings with it some tough choices.
Is there any way we can get a little bit more transparency in knowing why modules were put on "the list"? I know conversion takes awhile in some cases, and you need to limit your work, but sometimes the choices seem arbitrary. Since we're seeing a real problem with having enough low-level modules (confirmed by Erik that you're working on it) it might be nice.I understand why some (#11 and #19 come immediately to my own mind) are on the chopping block, but others (#6) that have been passed through the grinder are well-received. In fact not only does #6 have a 3.7 rating, it was listed as the "all-time favorite" module by three of the players in my group when I asked them which they liked the best a month or so ago. Compare that to some of the other modules that are surviving to conversion (#13 for example which is very interesting story-wise, but terrible to convert) and the selection process just seems haphazard.
I know you don't want to throw authors under the bus so-to-speak, but when some really good modules are being removed, other not-so-fun modules are being left in, it's disappointing.
Will folks who purchased the 3.5 versions need to re-purchase the PF conversions?
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I recognise that some of the scenarios you're retiring this November have acquired reputations for being brutal and/or hard to complete, but ever since Tomb of Horrors it seems to me that there has been at least a sizeable niche for such things in D&D and its descendents. (Indeed Tomb of Horrors even inspired a 'Return to the...' boxed set in 2nd edition AD&D.)
Or does the format of Society play, where it's more difficult to just 'roll up a new character' and join back in make the withdrawal of such scenarios a regrettable necessity?
To be fair, at least two of the modules slated for termination have such wonderful comments in their reviews as "worst module I've ever played." I think for some it might be difficulty, and for others it might have a lot to do with a lackluster or difficult plot.
I still think the lack of insight by Paizo is somewhat regrettable, especially on Black Waters, which is really fairly highly regarded. We're not dumb. There are plenty of GM threads on this forum, and Paizo's own review system gives us pretty good insight to which modules are being retired because they're sub-par. I think we all understand Paizo's reluctance to even consider indicating that they considered a module sub-par story-wise. What is unfortunate is watching a module half your regular group called "fantastic" get tossed out without any understanding of why other than the, "we can't convert them all" statement. When something like that gets tossed, and other, significantly less well-regarded modules live on to be played another day, it just makes the whole system seem very arbitrary.
Sorry for the venting, but I really liked Black Waters in particular, and watching it die while other, pretty crappy modules survive, and groups are already struggling to find 1-5 modules to play, is disappointing.
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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Some of these I understand retiring (such as #11: The Third Riddle and #19: Skeleton Moon); the challenges seem much harder than the CR would suggest. The others seem ripe for conversion; especially #25: Hands of the Muted God with the APG offering of an Anti-Paladin class. And both #12: Stay of Execution and #6: Black Waters are among my favorites. So I am sorry to see them go.
I am disappointed by some of the choices made. I thought for sure #16: To Scale the Dragon with its questionable Sled Race rules would have been retired by now.
I'll just have to wait and see how retirement works out...
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 4
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What? How did I miss this news? We are screwed.
Retiring this many low level scenarios this quickly will get players stuck playing 7th level pregens until January or so.
Here in Raleigh we have a number of players who enjoy trying out the different classes and have made 4 or five characters all 4th level or lower. They've played all or most of the low level Season 1 & Season 2 scenarios and have started on Season 0 scenarios. Without these scenarios they'll not be able to reach level 5 and the associated scenarios.
"I'm sorry, you can't playtest your new Magus character today - there's no eligible scenario for you to play. Here's a 7th level pregen. Go join the high tier table."
I guess I could rearrange all the scenarios I have scheduled to be run for the next month in order to get these in before the deadline. Nah, that's too much work for me and the GMs. I'll just let lowbies wait 3 months to play their own characters again.
Nevermind, problem solved.
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What? How did I miss this news? We are screwed.
Retiring this many low level scenarios this quickly will get players stuck playing 7th level pregens until January or so.
Here in Raleigh we have a number of players who enjoy trying out the different classes and have made 4 or five characters all 4th level or lower. They've played all or most of the low level Season 1 & Season 2 scenarios and have started on Season 0 scenarios. Without these scenarios they'll not be able to reach level 5 and the associated scenarios.
"I'm sorry, you can't playtest your new Magus character today - there's no eligible scenario for you to play. Here's a 7th level pregen. Go join the high tier table."
I guess I could rearrange all the scenarios I have scheduled to be run for the next month in order to get these in before the deadline. Nah, that's too much work for me and the GMs. I'll just let lowbies wait 3 months to play their own characters again.
Nevermind, problem solved.
You know MillerHero, I am surprised by your post. It seems like you have a very active group in Raleigh. You pulled together what, FIVE tables of players on a WEEKNIGHT for the Special?! Surely those same players, made aware of the ticking clock, are going to be very motivated to play these scenarios before 11/15. Can't you arrange some game nights in between your scheduled events? That's what I'm doing in Detroit. If the players want to grab these bad enough they will find the time, else they won't have a lot of room to complain. You've always been a voice of reason on these boards. I'm sure you have the means to get these turkeys cooked before the deadline :)
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 4
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You know MillerHero, I am surprised by your post. It seems like you have a very active group in Raleigh. You pulled together what, FIVE tables of players on a WEEKNIGHT for the Special?! Surely those same players, made aware of the ticking clock, are going to be very motivated to play these scenarios before 11/15. Can't you arrange some game nights in between your scheduled events? That's what I'm doing in Detroit. If the players want to grab these bad enough they will find the time, else they won't have a lot of room to complain. You've always been a voice of reason on these boards. I'm sure you have the means to get these turkeys cooked before the deadline :)
You know, you're right Doug.
I should have waited to simmer down a bit before posting.It's just that Frost and I discussed this exact issue at GenCon during my regional coordinator interview. I got the feeling I convinced him to hold off on the retirements and enlist the help of the community to update the scenarios. He kept responding that he had only retired 5 scenarios.
And now there will be 10.
I could try to get some extra sessions in. The bigger problem is the shortage of low level scenarios (which Erik says they are working on). We have new people show up to PFS almost every week, and they only get to play with veterans when there's a new low level scenario. The veterans have played all the rest.
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You know MillerHero, I am surprised by your post. It seems like you have a very active group in Raleigh. You pulled together what, FIVE tables of players on a WEEKNIGHT for the Special?!
<br>
<br>fwiw, it was SIX tables.
Folks really enjoyed it too.
Play it if you get the chance.
As to how the retirements are going to impact local play, I'm pretty sure Steve could schedule all 5 of the soon-to-be-retired adventures in the coming weeks to whet the appetites of the newer players. Unfortunately, that'll still leave the players yet to play (we're seeing about 1-3 new players each week - guess its due to the new semester at the local U) with a smaller number of low level adventures once the retirement happens.
Personally, I plan to set up a couple tables to make sure my recent converts get a chance to play the mods on the chopping block before they retire.
And this kind of situation is why the replay rules exist. If you have new players and the only way they get to play is for the more experienced players to start a new character of a different faction and play a scenario again, then they are allowed to do that and should do that or they do not seem very newbie-friendly to me.
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And this kind of situation is why the replay rules exist. If you have new players and the only way they get to play is for the more experienced players to start a new character of a different faction and play a scenario again, then they are allowed to do that and should do that or they do not seem very newbie-friendly to me.
I can see your point, and agree its a good one. I think you're missing mine though.
Replay exists for those situations where you need to meet table minimums, right? What we're running into isn't that - we have enough folks to make the tables. What our coordinator [Millerhero] was alluding to was that with a reduced number of low level mods, the more experienced players will be less able to mix with the new players. Not from a lack of making new lower level PCs - but from an inability to replay according to the PPP rules.
I know that I wouldn't want to be locked into playing with the same folks over & over again (I've got home games for that). I enjoy sitting down at a table with fresh faces & I'm suspecting that until we get some newer mods out there in the lower tiers (Mark Moreland - thanks for addressing this in the other thread) that I won't be able to game with the new folks.
[PS - just started PC #4 (also faction #4) so I can slip into low level games where I have the chance]
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Third Riddle was awesome. I would love to see this saved. It is different to most season 0 scenarios.
I found Black Water okay. Stay of Execution was okay with some editing issues and I was lucky to play Hands of the muted God at PaizoConOz. I have to say Sketeon Moon is a TPK for players particular if bad choices made.
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Some of these I understand retiring (such as #11: The Third Riddle and #19: Skeleton Moon); the challenges seem much harder than the CR would suggest. The others seem ripe for conversion; especially #25: Hands of the Muted God with the APG offering of an Anti-Paladin class. And both #12: Stay of Execution and #6: Black Waters are among my favorites. So I am sorry to see them go.
I am disappointed by some of the choices made. I thought for sure #16: To Scale the Dragon with its questionable Sled Race rules would have been retired by now.
I'll just have to wait and see how retirement works out...
12 and 6 were indeed good. but please oh please keep 16. that was awesome story, encounters, and setting combined. cool venture captain too. if need be I will convert that for free if thats the only way it will be saved. sorry you didnt like it. it was a hit with my group.
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12 and 6 were indeed good. but please oh please keep 16. that was awesome story, encounters, and setting combined. cool venture captain too. if need be I will convert that for free if thats the only way it will be saved. sorry you didnt like it. it was a hit with my group.Some of these I understand retiring (such as #11: The Third Riddle and #19: Skeleton Moon); the challenges seem much harder than the CR would suggest. The others seem ripe for conversion; especially #25: Hands of the Muted God with the APG offering of an Anti-Paladin class. And both #12: Stay of Execution and #6: Black Waters are among my favorites. So I am sorry to see them go.
I am disappointed by some of the choices made. I thought for sure #16: To Scale the Dragon with its questionable Sled Race rules would have been retired by now.
I'll just have to wait and see how retirement works out...
As one of the players of the aforementioned group, I loved #16 To Scale the Dragon. Of course we had an AWESOME gm. I really liked #6 as well, but can't comment on the others as I haven't played and/or ran them yet.
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I just played #6 yesterday. In spite having a subpar GM I could still tell that it was a thing of beauty.
Quick thing, I'm involved in a game day that plays on Mondays, including Monday the 15th. Is the retirement at midnight pacific time that night (15-16th) or midnight the night before (14th/15th). If it is the former that would mean we would have three hours to enter in our results if we finished at 10 PM mountain time.
Please let us know asap so that we can plan.
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Quick thing, I'm involved in a game day that plays on Mondays, including Monday the 15th. Is the retirement at midnight pacific time that night (15-16th) or midnight the night before (14th/15th). If it is the former that would mean we would have three hours to enter in our results if we finished at 10 PM mountain time.
Please let us know asap so that we can plan.
From slightly back in the thread:
I'd say you should have the results reported before your clock rolls over to 11/15.I'd say you should have your modules reported before *Paizo's* clock rolls over to 11/15. (We're on Pacific Time.)
I would take this to mean, play these on the day they retire at your own risk (for getting them reported on the website).
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Our local group just got done playing Hands of the Muted God, and I think for most if not all of us, it was one of the best mods yet in terms of challenge. Our cracked out PCs barely made APL 8, so we played the 8-9 and good lord...we almost actually had some deaths, something rare for us (well, maybe not my squishy rogue....).
We can definitely see why it's being retired, but if you haven't played it yet...do it!
Anyway, great mod, great challenge, lots of fun...R.I.P. ye Hands of the Muted God.
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I was thinking about this again today and I had a question for the powers that be.
Why retire any scenarios now? In other words, exactly what does retiring a scenario on November 15th gain you over waiting until a later date to retire a scenario?
Until conversion of the other season 0 modules is complete, is there any real purpose to retiring any further modules? We still have eighteen season zero modules which will be allowed to be played unconverted and right now there is a major complaint about the lack of low level scenarios. Wouldn't it be more prudent to leave the scenarios that would have been retired alone until the conversion process is complete and then announce which modules would be retired permanently?
This would facilitate the retirement of modules that Paizo wants to retire for whatever reason, and it would leave in place some extra low-level modules for a little while longer (at least until the whole conversion process is done). Regardless of any of our feelings about whether a module should to be retired or not, I would think this would be win-win for everybody involved.
What am I missing?
Until conversion of the other season 0 modules is complete, is there any real purpose to retiring any further modules?
I can't speak for anyone else, but if there's a serious flaw in a module and no plans to fix it, I'd rather see it retired sooner than later.
I'm not saying that's the case with any of the modules retired so far, though.
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Until conversion of the other season 0 modules is complete, is there any real purpose to retiring any further modules?I can't speak for anyone else, but if there's a serious flaw in a module and no plans to fix it, I'd rather see it retired sooner than later.
I'm not saying that's the case with any of the modules retired so far, though.
I definitely agree that there are some modules that are difficult to convert, but we've been living with difficult season zero conversions for 15 months now without any real issues with the exception of the occasional troublemaker (you know which modules you are). Adding another six months to that timeline isn't going to make or break the system. Additionally, I can think of at least one module that's a royal pain in the behind to convert and loses all of its uniqueness due to a weapon change that's not on the chopping block, so the reasoning to not retire due to a module flaw isn't universal.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Perhaps there could be some sort of "Not Recommended" or "Problematic as Runny Cheese" tag that Mark & Hyrum could put on some of these scenarios, which gives GMs and organizers fair warning that something serious is afoot, while still allowing people to run them "eyes open" if they decide to do so.
I definitely agree that there are some modules that are difficult to convert, but we've been living with difficult season zero conversions for 15 months now without any real issues with the exception of the occasional troublemaker (you know which modules you are). Adding another six months to that timeline isn't going to make or break the system.
Well, I think the intent is to get rid of the "occasional troublemakers", but there's some disagreement over which ones those are, I suppose.
Keeping the "troublemakers" around for six months wouldn't be doing anyone a favour, IMO.
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I think the issue with trouble makers is that it isn't universal and GM preperation / group lay-out can play a huge role.
During the first retirements, the only scenario I managed to get done was The Eye of the Crocodile King. I could see where issues could come from - but one player still regards it as the best adventure he played.
Two weeks ago I GMed Black Waters. I was pretty afraid with a witch, a bard and a wizard confirmed to play - plus a pre-gen as wildcard. Well - I pushed the player to take either Valeros or the cleric.
She took Valeros and it worked out and the group had lots of fun.
So yes - in my mind a flag - there are known issues - beware - could be more beneficial until modules are revised as a retirement. I haven't heard of many TPK in the modules currently retired.
Yes - I noticed an issue with Hand of the Muted God which is really an issue for replay. Again - a warning for this issue would go a long way. I understand that eventually scenarios should be converted or retired. But I would think that for each retired scenario there should be one converted.
So far we have a lot retired but none converted.
Thod
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So far we have a lot retired but none converted.
This is my current issue. I know Paizo doesn't want to deal with arguments regarding whether module X is fantastic and should be kept, or module Y is terrible and should be dumped, so that's not the issue I'm addressing. I'm just saying that for 15 months we've been doing fine with the slate of current zero modules. Waiting another 6 months (or 9 months if they're trying to get it done before Gen Con 2011) isn't going to break the system any more than it's already broken and would give Paizo the opportunity to get caught up on low-level replacements and would provide a long-term point on the horizon of "when we're done converting, the remaining unconverted modules will be retired."
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I think retiring modules keeps things consistent. If the intent is to attract new players and make sure their experience is fun, then you have to excise the bad apples. Some GMs are really good, and are capable of doing a conversion on the fly and making a module fun, regardless of its challenges. Some GMs are really bad, and will make a bad module worse. New players will not know the difference. They will only know that their first PFS experience was either "awesome" or "awful" and will base their decision to continue playing on that experience. Remove the variable of a difficult-to-convert/play/run or deadly/boring/sub-par adventure, and that experience becomes more likely to be consistent.
I think they're doing the right thing, they just were taken unawares on the issue of low level mods.
But, yes, I'd like to see them convert at the same pace they retire. I know they have a huge community of people who would be willing to do the work. I would suggest giving modules that they plan on converting to multiple volunteers, accept submissions on a deadline, then pick their favorite to republish. It'd take most of the work off their shoulders, wouldn't it? And who'd be willing to do this kind of "work?"
<slowly raises hand...>
Like I said in a different thread where the comment got lost, and while it is probably too late for this, I think it would have been better to have waited til all of Season 2 was out and then retire all of Season 0 at one time. Then go through all of them and convert the ones worth converting and un-retire the converted ones or re-introduce them as part of Season 3.