When I was in school there was sometimes a female gamer at the table, namely someone's girlfriend at the time. As we grew up and became more mature, the women sorta added themselves to the group. At times it's been as high as an even split of 3 women and 3 men in the group. Right now it's 1 female GM and 4 guys, but who knows what it'll be in a few years. Female gamers were odd growing up, true, but then so were gamers in general! Now, well, I couldn't care less if you're a guy or girl if you're gaming with me, as long as you don't disrupt the game. Do that, and your gender won't save you;)
Hey, we like to fantasize about girls playing fantasy games. Heck, we're even willing to role play with them.
...er wait, that could be taken out of context.
Carry on. Nothing to see here.
Hey, we like to fantasize about girls playing fantasy games. Heck, we're even willing to role play with them.
...er wait, that could be taken out of context.
Carry on. Nothing to see here.
Umm, what he said, he he.
I know a lot guys who only knew male players 'back in the day'. My experience has always been the exception, I guess. Over the years I've played with one of my sisters and a girlfriend or two... in addition to guy players. It never was awkward or surprising.
My current group consists of me (male DM) and two female players. One of whom is about ready to try her hand at DMing, so we will be co-op DMing a round-robin campaign.
I was chatting with her about the stereotypes of who plays D&D. She brought up a very good point - that it entirely depends on where you grew up. In her experience, no geeks played it. It was all 'normal' kids... the reason being that she grew up in a small aggie town where there was NOTHING to do outside of school and chores - so they played D&D.
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Over the years I've played with one of my sisters and a girlfriend or two... in addition to guy players. It never was awkward or surprising.
Ummm dude... is that LEGAL??? ;D
Growing up we NEVER saw a female gamer until I hit college. Eventually played in a group with one woman. Then for years no women. Then moved and found a new group. The GM's wife played. Then my wife joined, so we had two women and two men playing (and a GM which doesn't count as either). A later game had two men and THREE women but it fell apart because two of the players had ADD and could never focus on the game. Current group has a woman.
At GenCon I saw a LOT of female gamers, more than I expected (and you can tell the gamers from the GFs who were drug there). I think women are a fast growing population of the industry. Thank GOD!
I believe I've said this before, but it really, really gets on my nerves that even the geeks at my school think it awkward or funny or at best mildly surprising to find a girl playing a fantasy RPG. Anyone else have this problem?
If it's any consolation gameing is becomeing more gender neutral.
I have never had a problem with any of the ladies at my games and I guess my experiances are not the norm but for the first 6yrs I played women out numbered the guys.
The first table I played at the DM was running and the other players were an even split two guys, two girls. The next one was a 3 person group of me and two women, or as the DM put it, two women and a gay guy. That was a very RP intensive group and even though we were small in number we kicked much but. My current group is all male of 5 players and thats the first tiome in 20yrs that thats happend.
Chalk the shock factor of you school geeks dealing with a live female to immaturity. If they really need proof that women do indeed game direct them here and have them shot an email to lisa, I can just imagine her comments about not only being a female gamer but being IN the industry as well as an industry LEADER!
At GenCon I saw a LOT of female gamers, more than I expected (and you can tell the gamers from the GFs who were drug there).
Yeah, rohypnol will do that.
High school was the only time I didn't have a girl in my circle of gamer friends. Of course I went to a Catholic all-male high school. In college we had a large group of gamers in our games. Not in every game I played, but in several of them. We had several that even played in our fantasy LARP.
Since college, I think every group I've gamed with has had at least one girl in it. Granted, most of the time it is my wife. We even had a group that consisted of three couples at one point.
EDIT: Now miniature wargaming... I've never played a girl in a miniature war game.
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I've gotten some weird looks and disbelieving comments from non-gamers when I say "I play D&D" (because a lot of people only recognize 'D&D' and not what RPG means), but I've never gotten that reaction from other gamers.
There have been a few guy gamers who didn't react well to me being at their table over the years, but they are in the minority and I don't think they even realized they were giving off a bad vibe.
I have been gaming and going to conventions since 1982 and I don't think I was in a group with a female gamer for almost the first 10 years, and since then, groups I have been in have never been without female members. Back in those days, here in the South, male gamers/sci-fi fans tended to outnumber females maybe about 15 or 20 to 1 at conventions. Those numbers only very slowly got better as the years passed until the day a little company called White Wolf put out a Vampire rpg, and, shortly after that, the larp version of the game. After that, the numbers of female gamers exploded. I think at the convention I went to a couple of months ago, in it's 18th year now, the female attendance outnumbered the male attendance. I have to say that if it were not for live-action role-playing, the number of female gamers would still be way down, or at least the number that are willing to admit to it in public.
When I was a kid, I wanted to play D&D, and the only other people who played D&D were boys in my class, and they looked at me like I was insane when I asked if I could play with them. We were all 12, and I did have cooties (not literally), and I was not popular, to say the least, so there we were.
In college, I had nearly the opposite experience. The undergraduate school I went to used to be a all-girl's school, and only had started letting men in relatively recently--it was about a 70-30 gender split in women's favor. So very frequently I played in games that were all or mostly-girl (there was one exception that was three guys and me but that was like, all three guys into roleplaying in the gaming club at the time... ;) ). I got very used to women being a major part of gaming groups, so it was a shock to me when I hit graduate school, and the gaming club there was far more "stereotypical" with its gender disparity. Still I was not the only girl there, and women were not treated poorly.
To be honest, the only place I have ever seen women actually TREATED like they were a minority, and a very unwanted one at that, were at gamer message boards on the Internet (not this one). They seemed or seem the last refuge for the idea that a gaming group is a boys-only club.
Anyone has a working theory as to when/what opened up the floodgates for females to join the gaming ranks in greater numbers? They existed ... but far and few. They're becoming more common now (which is a good thing).
To be honest, the only place I have ever seen women actually TREATED like they were a minority, and a very unwanted one at that, were at gamer message boards on the Internet (not this one). They seemed or seem the last refuge for the idea that a gaming group is a boys-only club.
That's because they haven't left their parents' basement and not taken down their Farrah Fawcett poster yet. ;)
To be honest, the only place I have ever seen women actually TREATED like they were a minority, and a very unwanted one at that, were at gamer message boards on the Internet (not this one). They seemed or seem the last refuge for the idea that a gaming group is a boys-only club.That's because they haven't left their parents' basement and not taken down their Farrah Fawcett poster yet. ;)
You may well have a point. :D
To answer your more serious question, about what has drawn women to gaming in larger numbers, it's a number of things (all my guesses; none of this is terribly academic, and I'm sure someone will come along and take something out of context or be terribly offended and I'M SORRY this is just my thoughts as I think them):
- In the 70s, when D&D was created, the fantasy market itself was largely dominated by men and produced stories marketed toward a young male demographic--whether reprints of old Tolkien stories, or the works of Moorcock and Vance, etc. The audience of these stories became the audience for the RPGs inspired by the same literature. However, women started entering the genre--Le Guin, Cherryh, McCaffery--making a name for themselves and inspiring not only males who read their works but drawing women readers too. Soon fantasy novels emerged that were distinctly written borrowing from genres appealing to women, such as romances, as much as they were borrowing from Western fantasy (Mercedes Lackey, for a major example). And as fantasy became a genre with a mixed-gender demographic, so fantasy RPGs did too, attracting women for the same reason essentially as it attracted men.
- Game publishers, at least the ones that have survived, have realized that they make more money selling to more people, strangely enough, and have adjusted their marketing accordingly. Put a woman on a cover who is in a helpless,, compromising position in a ridiculous chain mail bikini, sure, you'll attract a certain kind of male, but drive potential female (and some male) moneyspenders away. The trick is, simply, not to make the woman in the chain mail bikini helpless. Women stereotypically (according to a couple random studies I've read) often associate themselves with a woman prominently presented in the media before them. If women are advertised to be weak, then the ads aren't going to attract women--at least not the kind of women who might be keen to pick up the dice and play hero. They don't mind seeing sexy or pretty women--again, they want to associate themselves with what's before them--but seeing them disempowered or otherwise somehow dehumanized will make them uncomfortable and move away.
- D&D evolved from wargaming, which was itself a largely "boys club" kind of game. (And interestingly, it still is. RPGers I know make little deal of girl gamers, but when I walk into a Games Workshop store, they wonder what the hell this alien being is with the higher voice and the funny soft bumps on its chest. "Oh, I didn't know the race the Sisters of Battle was based on was real!") So it started with a built-in, largely male market. But while wargaming attracts more men, roleplaying was bound to eventually start attracting women as well--stereotypically (and being stereotypically, of COURSE there are many and varied exceptions to the rule) boys are attracted to competitive games whereas girls prefer cooperative games of pretend (in other words, girls like to roleplay). The nice thing about RPGs is they combine "masculine" and "feminine" paradigms of play into one very complete whole--both the competitive combats and mechanics-based-strategies as well as the cooperative and social play and the distinct and unique challenges of roleplaying a character and playing it well. So it's going to attract people of all genders (and people with a healthy sense of play will like a little bit of everything anyway), once there's been time to spread the word.
Well played, DQ. I cracked up at the 'funny soft bumps on its chest' remark.
P.P.S. Yes, I read your journal. Put down the axe. :P
Every group I've ever had with a female present they were wife or girlfriend to someone else at the table. The few females I know that are into movies/video gaming, look at D&D as something beneath them, despite my attempts to dumb-it-down and show them it's really just an interactive fantasy boardgame.
We have quite a few females that actually show up and enjoy "boardgame night" (Robo Rally, Carcassone, etc.) and I also knew a one or two into Magic Cards back in the day(5-10 years ago), but have had no luck with getting D&D converts. The one single girl I met playing D&D, simply put was an obnoxious person/personality outside of game, she didn't get a return invite from the group after 2-3 sessions.
EDIT: One of our more recent gaming sessions, one of the player's wives showed up, she made some sort of funny comment which I forget now, but having to do with a girl in a gaming store. Everyone introduced themselves and I couldn't help myself, I exclaimed pretending to be panicked "I ROLL INITIATIVE!" Being a gamer's wife she knew I was kidding and even knew what I was talking about, yay! successful nerd joke! :D
There were three women in our college group of 8 back in 1977 (two regulars, one occasional). No big woop then or now. Our genders and ages vary widely in today's groups - 15-50, male, female, etc. Sometimes our dog even sits in (the girl dog, the boy dog shows no interest). She sits on a chair at the table and would roll if she could. I guess that's another one for the beyotches (EDIT: counting myself - no offense meant). :P
Anyone has a working theory as to when/what opened up the floodgates for females to join the gaming ranks in greater numbers? They existed ... but far and few. They're becoming more common now (which is a good thing).
*pointing back up at my post regarding the coming of White Wolf Games, Vampire: the Masquerade, and live-action role-playing* :-)
I believe I've said this before, but it really, really gets on my nerves that even the geeks at my school think it awkward or funny or at best mildly surprising to find a girl playing a fantasy RPG. Anyone else have this problem?
This keeps bugging me.
I don't know what kind of 1930's fantasy world the guys at your school are living in, but if they ever leave their mom's basement, they'd better get ready to see women not only at the gaming table, but in the boardroom, the engineering workstation, the operating room, the Oval Office, and behind their bosses' desk. Evincing amusement, disdain, or astonishment in those cases is not going to get them very far in life. People with boobs are just that - people. Your schoolmates need to grow the f&#k up.
I mean, seriously. I expected this kind of attitude as a woman in gaming and technical fields in the 1970's and 1980's, but thought this kind of discussion would be history by the next freakin century.
[/rant - should have posted as Ruffled Feathers]
Back to gaming, that kind of attitude can be uncomfortable to live with. You don't feel welcome, you don't show up, right? It takes a strong, geeky woman to put up with guys like that. Keep your chin up.
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I believe I've said this before, but it really, really gets on my nerves that even the geeks at my school think it awkward or funny or at best mildly surprising to find a girl playing a fantasy RPG. Anyone else have this problem?
Is it better or worse than going onto Xbox Live with a mic?
I'm guessing worse due to the proximity of the awkwardness, but hot damn at least people will censor themselves without the sheild of anonymity.
Is it spelled anonymity?
Yes it is.
Anyway, all you can do is keep on trucking and drag the gamers you're having to settle for kicking and screaming into the twentie...twenty-first century. Provided you can't find a group of gamers free of the backwardsness, that is. Make it known that their shock and surprise was old and tired when it started and ask them if they want to stand around in wonder of the feminine gamer or if they want to play some @#$%ing RPG already.
(may have lost patience with the behavior described in the OP back in the 90's)
* High fives Mizake *
Female gamer sitting right here. Active pbp DM.
First ever group I played in was 4 girls, 2 boys. Seemed normal to us.
Present group is 3 couples, our son and a single girl.
The one and only time I ever had trouble with being female was at university. Walked into the room with my dice and got the whole "you're in the wrong ballpark, cutie." Half an hour after that, when one person too many told me what a d4 was again, I left for good and didn't come back to rpgs until about two years ago.
Don't wurry, Treppa haz been reprymandead for her breich of spaeeling.
* High fives Mikaze *
Come again?
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* High fives Mizake *
Mikaze, sorry. I went back to check spelling but it was correct in your quote. Stupid dyslexia!
Don't worry! It happens all the time!
Women have outnumbered men in all of my pathfinder groups and many of my D&D groups before that.
Champions, D20 mod, LUG trek, and fantasy Hero were all pretty even, but Battle Tech only had 1 or 2 ladies play.
I have been a female DM since 1988, and have never thought twice about it. In the 2 groups I DM for, I have 3 female players. When I started as a DM I had an all-male group, but this was never a problem.
And as for roleplaying versus combat: I like roleplaying a lot, but I am also very proud when I have DM-ed a really tough combat encounter with a lot of tension, and when my players comment how exciting this was.
And I have also been reading Vance and Moorcock since the seventies, alongside the female fantasy writers which came later.
So there are exceptions to the stereotype.
There's three women and 5 men in the group I currently play with.
You know what would make a good "motivational" poster? Jenny Poisson holding up her character sheet, with the word "Gamer" underneath. I think that'd make the point very succinctly, bust all the stereotypes.
There's three women and 5 men in the group I currently play with.
You know what would make a good "motivational" poster? Jenny Poisson holding up her character sheet, with the word "Gamer" underneath. I think that'd make the point very succinctly, bust all the stereotypes.
I SAW WHAT YOU DID THERE.
Huh. That was unintentional.
But brilliant.
Well played, DQ. I cracked up at the 'funny soft bumps on its chest' remark.
I wish that were more hyperbole than it is.
Oh well, my wargame minis sit in the corner gathering dust while my RPG life is going strong.
Why would I raise the axe? Public posts are public intentionally. :)
(Another reason why I don't use Facebook--at LJ I can choose to share with and receive comments from anonymous readers)
Lyingbastard: I believe Jenny's last name is "Poussin" (a French surname, such as in the famous French artist Nicholas Poussin), not "Poisson" (which is French for "fish"). :)
I think the different gender experiences in gaming have a lot to do with identity/self-identification. From adolescence to adulthood, boys/men are more likely than girls/women to (publicly) call themselves geeks, and openly talk about geeky hobbies. Growing up in the 80s/90s, a guy might talk about hitting the arcade, playing consoles/LAN games at somebody's house, or hanging out at the FL comic/RPG shop, and probably all their friends (likely to also be geeks) would dig it.
A girl who enjoyed or was interested in the same activities generally wouldn't bring it up with a group of other girls, except/unless it's already established that they share those interests and there's no worry about social isolation/ostracism (like at a sci-fi or gaming club). Certainly there are exceptions, but I still find a lot of young women into sci-fi/anime/role-playing who claim they can't find any other girls who share their interests - there's clearly a communications error somewhere.
It's interesting to note that even though more girls/women are actively involved in geeky pursuits (as both hobbies & careers), very few girls/women actually call themselves geeks. (Trust me, I've been asking for years.)
Another aspect of it may be the not-so-girl-friendly local gaming/comic shop itself. My to-be-hubby & I frequent several of the comic & gaming shops here in New York, and the atmosphere & customer service at some places gives off a distinctly "ugh/ooh, a girl!" vibe. I'm far more likely to spend time & money at the places that just treat me like a knowledgeable comic/gamer-geek like everybody else (our squishy bits are just arranged a little differently).
To be honest, the only place I have ever seen women actually TREATED like they were a minority, and a very unwanted one at that, were at gamer message boards on the Internet (not this one). They seemed or seem the last refuge for the idea that a gaming group is a boys-only club.
Quoted for truth.
Although I wouldn't necessarily say the Paizo boards are entirely immune to that phenomenon. It's LESS common here than I've seen elsewhere, but it's still a relative frequent occurrence for me to read the boards here and feel... less than welcome because I happen to be female. Even if one assumes that those who are overtly sexist are a minority (and I think they are, here), there is a 'default male' sort of mindset that seems to prevail in the hobby.
But that 'default male' mindset is even an issue in my own gaming group, which is 2/3 female. I even catch myself falling into the trap of referring to unnamed NPCs with male-gendered pronouns, and I make a conscious effort to ensure that my NPCs are gender-balanced when I'm DMing. The other DM in the group is male, so it's natural for him to do that, but it annoys the crap out of me when I catch MYSELF doing it. :P
It's interesting to note that even though more girls/women are actively involved in geeky pursuits (as both hobbies & careers), very few girls/women actually call themselves geeks. (Trust me, I've been asking for years.)
That's interesting; most girl geeks I know are proud to say so. But I wouldn't be surprised if generally across the country that might be the case.
Another aspect of it may be the not-so-girl-friendly local gaming/comic shop itself. My to-be-hubby & I frequent several of the comic & gaming shops here in New York, and the atmosphere & customer service at some places gives off a distinctly "ugh/ooh, a girl!" vibe. I'm far more likely to spend time & money at the places that just treat me like a knowledgeable comic/gamer-geek like everybody else (our squishy bits are just arranged a little differently).
I noted in my comment to Urizen that I've gotten that at Games Workshop (wargame) stores, which is really frustrating when it happens. I am lucky that the comics-RPG stores around here don't do that--but I remember a time when they did. My favorite FLGS became far more girl friendly after they got a lot of feedback from the women who did come to the establishment (some of that "uh oh a girl" reaction is something that the people who are doing it aren't aware of).
To be honest, the only place I have ever seen women actually TREATED like they were a minority, and a very unwanted one at that, were at gamer message boards on the Internet (not this one). They seemed or seem the last refuge for the idea that a gaming group is a boys-only club.Quoted for truth.
Although I wouldn't necessarily say the Paizo boards are entirely immune to that phenomenon. It's LESS common here than I've seen elsewhere, but it's still a relative frequent occurrence for me to read the boards here and feel... less than welcome because I happen to be female. Even if one assumes that those who are overtly sexist are a minority (and I think they are, here), there is a 'default male' sort of mindset that seems to prevail in the hobby.
To be fair, you're right, there are a few conversations I recall that did get really uncomfortable in terms of gender-fail. But what sets this place apart in my mind is that--in my personal experience--it is far less frequent (and happens less often now than it used to), and there are a LOT more people who come in on the side of fairness and equality, and most notably, including the staff. I excepted this site in my mind because COMPARATIVELY it's not bad. I've been to places where people used the "there are no women on the Internet" argument and actually meant it (and used it as an attempt to shut me and anyone speaking up against a sexist comment), and I've never seen something like THAT here.
But you're right, it's important to be aware of when it does happen. I hope that your experience improves and if you find yourself continuing to feel unwelcome, speak up (and if necessary, hit that "flag" button)! There are a lot of us here, and I've not felt alone, and I hope you do not either.
Back when I was a university student, our role-playing club was composed of a fair number of female gamers. Perhaps not 50%, but not that far either. However, D&D did not seem to be the preferred game of female gamers however. There were significantly more female in the diverse WoD games, especially Vampire The Mascarade...
To be fair, you're right, there are a few conversations I recall that did get really uncomfortable in terms of gender-fail. But what sets this place apart in my mind is that--in my personal experience--it is far less frequent (and happens less often now than it used to), and there are a LOT more people who come in on the side of fairness and equality, and most notably, including the staff. I excepted this site in my mind because COMPARATIVELY it's not bad. I've been to places where people used the "there are no women on the Internet" argument and actually meant it (and used it as an attempt to shut me and anyone speaking up against a sexist comment), and I've never seen something like THAT here.
But you're right, it's important to be aware of when it does happen. I hope that your experience improves and if you find yourself continuing to feel unwelcome, speak up (and if necessary, hit that "flag" button)! There are a lot of us here, and I've not felt alone, and I hope you do not either.
Oh, I agree that these boards much better than some, in this respect. There's less conscious and intentional sexism exhibited here than in other gaming forums I've lurked around, but there's enough to make me cautious about engaging in discussions from time to time.
I'm relieved that we have not (yet) in this thread, had the usual 'girls are welcome at my gaming table as long as they wear skimpy clothes' proclamation. Admittedly, that's a statement I've seen more elsewhere than here, and it's usually followed up by a screed about how the author truly respects and enjoys having women at games-- so long as said women are attractive and willing to be sexually objectified. (Not that they'd phrase it that way, but that's the point.) I HAVE seen it here, though, and didn't see any rush to call the person on it at the time. Which is one of the big factors behind my caution in approaching conversations here.
But that's a relatively isolated case, and overall I think you're right about the community here. There's room for improvement, but there always is, right? :)
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I've pretty much always played with girls, ever since high school. I've got no broad sweeping statements, I've had great girl players, terrible ones, and some who I've played with for five years who can't find their base attack bonus on a character sheet.
Just like I've had guys who do things like forget to select skills on their character and not realize until half way through the second session. Girl gamers have never been an exception for me.
Then again I've never suffered from a stereotypical fear of girls. People are just people.