3 to 1 girls to guys in my group.
I think perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying.
Oh, I understood the point you were making about blatantly disrespectful, sexist comments. Several of the guys I know would offer "to hold 'em while you hit 'em" if some crass fool made such a comment to one of their female friends.
I mentioned our pixie's player as a point of irony — that the repercussions of a woman dressing like that for gametime might not have the desired effect upon the group's productivity. In my case, whether or not any of the guys imply or outright say that's their main reason for wanting a female present was irrelevant to my point. My anecdote was more an admonishment to the crass sorts to be careful what they wish for and I was merely using your comment as a segue.
Sorry if I confused the matter there.
As for the attitude you're talking about, honestly I think it depends on the circle of people involved and the overall level of maturity vs. "jockishness". Now I can't comment on first-hand feelings of objectification and feeling uncomfortable online. However, I will say that I find these boards to be the most polite and intellectually mature of any of the sites I've frequented in my day.
I think perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying. What a woman chooses to wear-- at the gaming table or anywhere else-- is irrelevant to the point I was making.
My point was that I've been deeply uncomfortable with the statements I've seen from male gamers (some on these boards, more elsewhere) that imply or outright say that the main reason they would welcome a woman at their gaming table is for the opportunity to ogle and sexually objectify her. One would hope that attitude would be very uncommon these days, but I fear that it isn't.
With all due respect, Lindisty. I believe a woman's choice of clothing does matter in this case. If you have a woman going out to a bar and wearing an outfit that is, shall we say, a little too revealing, it sends a message that 'Hey I am available'. She has every right to wear what she wants, don't misunderstand me, but wearing an outfit like that is counterproductive to the purpose of the gathering, which is to game. You don't need to dress like a model to do that.
Just my 2 cents.
Get master tips from this guy on how to pick up girls in a bar and flirt with them.
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That story annoys me. The whole, "I'm gonna dress sexy to a casual game where everyone else is wearing jeans and t-shirts," attitude strikes me as a pathetic bid for attention. The focus isn't on the game then, but on You...and people who need to always be the focus of the room/conversation/game really tick me off. It's manipulative and doesn't reflect well on character (in the sense of 'moral character'), and can potentially drive a wedge into the team building that is so important to a successful campaign.
Guys, being guys, tend to notice if a gal is at the table or not. You don't need to put an exclamation mark over yourself to get noticed. If it's a "Everyone can come in costume" event, then okay, it's a sexy costume. No big deal.
I believe a woman's choice of clothing does matter in this case. If you have a woman going out to a bar and wearing an outfit that is, shall we say, a little too revealing, it sends a message that 'Hey I am available'. She has every right to wear what she wants, don't misunderstand me, but wearing an outfit like that is counterproductive to the purpose of the gathering, which is to game. You don't need to dress like a model to do that.
Just my 2 cents.
Would it be counterproductive to the game if a guy showed up having obviously paid attention to his appearance-- suppose he was coming from a job interview where he wanted to make a good impression and was wearing a suit? Would that be 'distracting'? Would it be 'distracting' if it was hot and a guy wore a tank top at the gaming table? If the answers to those questions is 'no', then why would you apply a different standard to a woman at your gaming table? Why should it be any different for a woman to wear shorts and a tank top when it's hot than for a guy to do so? If the guy isn't inviting sexual advances by his clothing choices, then what makes it okay to assume a woman is?
Y'know, I enjoy looking at people I consider attractive (male and female) as much as the next person, and if they happen to be scantily clad, so much the better. But I don't assume that their manner of dress or my enjoyment of their attractiveness means they're intentionally displaying themselves for my titillation unless they tell me that's what they intend. I understand that my being attracted to someone isn't their responsibility. It's mine, and if I'm distracted by that attraction, that also is my responsibility rather than theirs. It's truly baffling to me when people ascribe responsibility for their attraction onto the object of that attraction rather than owning it for themselves.
Would it be counterproductive to the game if a guy showed up having obviously paid attention to his appearance-- suppose he was coming from a job interview where he wanted to make a good impression and was wearing a suit? Would that be 'distracting'? Would it be 'distracting' if it was hot and a guy wore a tank top at the gaming table? If the answers to those questions is 'no', then why would you apply a different standard to a woman at your gaming table? Why should it be any different for a woman to wear shorts and a tank top when it's hot than for a guy to do so? If the guy isn't inviting sexual advances by his clothing choices, then what makes it okay to assume a woman is?
Y'know, I enjoy looking at people I consider attractive (male and female) as much as the next person, and if they happen to be scantily clad, so much the better. But I don't assume that their manner of dress or my enjoyment of their attractiveness means they're intentionally displaying themselves for my titillation unless they tell me that's what they intend. I understand that my being attracted to someone isn't their responsibility. It's mine, and if I'm distracted by that attraction, that also is my responsibility rather than theirs. It's truly baffling to me when people ascribe responsibility for their attraction onto the object of that attraction rather than owning it for themselves.
Zeguma has a good point and I agree with her about this as well. Please don't get me wrong, i would like it if a female gamer would dress nicely for me, and I am sure many other guys feel the same way, but speaking for myself, I would find it distracting. Not to say this is right by any stretch, it just is. If I wore a tank top and speedos to your game, that would be saying 'please pay attention to me'. I would not do that to my fellow gamers, we are there to game, not to ogle each other.
Zeguma has a good point and I agree with her about this as well. Please don't get me wrong, i would like it if a female gamer would dress nicely for me, and I am sure many other guys feel the same way, but speaking for myself, I would find it distracting. Not to say this is right by any stretch, it just is. If I wore a tank top and speedos to your game, that would be saying 'please pay attention to me'. I would not do that to my fellow gamers, we are there to game, not to ogle each other.
Dude. Put away those manchesters. Not cool. :P
Would it be counterproductive to the game if a guy showed up having obviously paid attention to his appearance-- suppose he was coming from a job interview where he wanted to make a good impression and was wearing a suit? Would that be 'distracting'? Would it be 'distracting' if it was hot and a guy wore a tank top at the gaming table? If the answers to those questions is 'no', then why would you apply a different standard to a woman at your gaming table? Why should it be any different for a woman to wear shorts and a tank top when it's hot than for a guy to do so? If the guy isn't inviting sexual advances by his clothing choices, then what makes it okay to assume a woman is?
Y'know, I enjoy looking at people I consider attractive (male and female) as much as the next person, and if they happen to be scantily clad, so much the better. But I don't assume that their manner of dress or my enjoyment of their attractiveness means they're intentionally displaying themselves for my titillation unless they tell me that's what they intend. I understand that my being attracted to someone isn't their responsibility. It's mine, and if I'm distracted by that attraction, that also is my responsibility rather than theirs. It's truly baffling to me when people ascribe responsibility for their attraction onto the object of that attraction rather than owning it for themselves.
Zeguma has a good point and I agree with her about this as well. Please don't get me wrong, i would like it if a female gamer would dress nicely for me, and I am sure many other guys feel the same way, but speaking for myself, I would find it distracting. Not to say this is right by any stretch, it just is. If I wore a tank top and speedos to your game, that would be saying 'please pay attention to me'. I would not do that to my fellow gamers, we are there to game, not to ogle each other.
If you're not there to ogle someone, then don't ogle them. It's that simple. Why should what someone else is wearing have more control over what goes on in your head than you do?
Edited to add: More to the point, if you let what someone else is wearing distract you to the point that it interferes with what you're doing, why is it their problem and not yours?
If you're not there to ogle someone, then don't ogle them. It's that simple. Why should what someone else is wearing have more control over what goes on in your head than you do?
Because some of it is inherently biological. It extends to the animal kingdom as well. We just don't need to get respect mixed up with repression. This is a grey topic and I don't necessarily have all the right answers, but one person's offense may as well be another person's admiration and another person's ambivalence.
Oh, yes, poor men. We women all have to cover ourselves in veils and floor length skirts, because otherwise we are FORCING them to look at our bodies, purposed only to be sexually available to them, and MAKING them be distracted.
HOW DARE a woman be proud of her body and dress it in the way she feels comfortable! Doesn't she KNOW the poor spineless male is incapable of respectful decision making and thinks only with his pants? What audacity she has to assume decency and courtesy in her fellows, and what further audacity she has for EVER taking pride in her appearance. FOR SHAME.
We evil, evil women with our horrible, horrible bodies. We shouldn't be allowed to have bodies at all!
(sarcastic hyperbole for the purpose of making a point is sarcastic hyperbole for the purpose of making a point)
I'm not sure what's more appalling, the sexist attitude toward women and what they wear, or the sexist attitude toward yourselves. "We can't help it." "You must be wearing that pretty thing for my benefit." GROW UP.
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You're right that people can wear whatever they want to a game, and whether you are distracted or not is more a personal matter and not reflective of the person distracting you. But like Shakespeare said in Hamlet, "The clothes make the man." People DO form opinions based on appearances. Often, our behaviors towards people based on their dress are also subconscious. Think about police officers, flight attendants and the homeless...they could all be the same people underneath, but I'd still have a subconciously different attitude to each persona.
Sure, my visceral reaction to being pulled over by the highway patrol officer is MY reaction - it's not the cop's fault. But social conditioning also plays a part, and some people DO manipulate others through their appearance. Look at Milgram's famous experiment.
This doesn't excuse bad behavior on the part of people who feel they were/are manipulated by other's appearances. It certainly doesn't justify rape or ostracism or abuse (or, in Milgram's cases, electrocution) with the excuse "The other person made me do it because of how he/she looked."
If you're not there to ogle someone, then don't ogle them. It's that simple. Why should what someone else is wearing have more control over what goes on in your head than you do?Because some of it is inherently biological. It extends to the animal kingdom as well. We just don't need to get respect mixed up with repression. This is a grey topic and I don't necessarily have all the right answers, but one person's offense may as well be another person's admiration and another person's ambivalence.
Sure, biological urges can be powerful forces. But the degree to which one lets one's behavior and interactions with other people be controlled by said urges is one's own responsibility, is it not? Should I blame my colleague in the next cubicle over because I salivate when she eats soup for lunch and I can smell it? Is it okay if I go into her office with a spoon and take some of her soup without having her offer it to me? She has it right there where I can smell it, after all! If she's not going to share it with me, should I forbid her to eat soup in her cubicle because I can't help salivating and it distracts me from work?
To bring this back to the point, I may be pantingly physically attracted to someone, but that reaction is my responsibility, and if I can't find a way to deal with it that doesn't have a negative impact on my social interactions, then that too, is my responsibility.
I never assume that anyone is wearing anything for my benefit. You pick out the clothes and you wear it. Everyone, male or female, has their own agenda(s) as to why they chose what they did.
We all just need to be careful how to direct our comments here. I don't believe anyone of us are purposely trying to be overt sexists. But it goes both ways and sometimes even within the same gender. Be respectful, but not to the point where it's puritanical. Maybe it's me, but I'd rather have bare chests on tv than the amount of violence that's displayed. Sometimes, frankly, I think we're assbackwards and we need to catch up with the Europeans.
We started out naked from the beginning. Sometimes people are too busy eating the promegranate. It'd be better to toss it aside. Personally, I like grapes. =)
Sure, my visceral reaction to being pulled over by the highway patrol officer is MY reaction - it's not the cop's fault. But social conditioning also plays a part, and some people DO manipulate others through their appearance. Look at Milgram's famous experiment.
This doesn't excuse bad behavior on the part of people who feel they were/are manipulated by other's appearances. It certainly doesn't justify rape or ostracism or abuse (or, in Milgram's cases, electrocution) with the excuse "The other person made me do it because of how he/she looked."
I agree on the social conditioning, and I also agree ... it doesn't justify any of that. Those louts have no respect / self-control. Sometimes, I feel that certain puritanical directions caused such repressions and therefore certain individuals blow up as a result. Perhaps we have it ... backwards.
EDIT: Keep in mind, I'm thinking out loud as a form of devil's advocatism to move the discussion. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, everyone. And sometimes, we'll just have to agree to disagree. =)
Sure, biological urges can be powerful forces. But the degree to which one lets one's behavior and interactions with other people be controlled by said urges is one's own responsibility, is it not? Should I blame my colleague in the next cubicle over because I salivate when she eats soup for lunch and I can smell it? Is it okay if I go into her office with a spoon and take some of her soup without having her offer it to me? She has it right there where I can smell it, after all! If she's not going to share it with me, should I forbid her to eat soup in her cubicle because I can't help salivating and it distracts me from work?
To bring this back to the point, I may be pantingly physically attracted to someone, but that reaction is my responsibility, and if I can't find a way to deal with it that doesn't have a negative impact on my social interactions, then that too, is my responsibility.
I have no disagreements with what you said. Don't do unto others that you don't want done to yourself. That's how I keep myself in check.
However, as a tangent, there are certain foods that should not be eaten in a cubicle. Food allergies or the scent may be too atrocious. And in that case, it *can* be distracting and the person should either switch to something that's less of a distraction or go to the designated eating location assigned at the workplace.
A prime example: I personally cannot handle a mix of eggs bacon and onions mixed together. It nauseates me to the point that I will get ill. When my lady does it at home, she warns me and I go elsewhere in the house for awhile.
Bah SCREENSHOT or it didnt happen!
My point was that I've been deeply uncomfortable with the statements I've seen from male gamers (some on these boards, more elsewhere) that imply or outright say that the main reason they would welcome a woman at their gaming table is for the opportunity to ogle and sexually objectify her. One would hope that attitude would be very uncommon these days, but I fear that it isn't.I've personally found that the frequency you run into this sort of thing changes drastically with geography. I ran into it a lot more in Michigan/Ohio than I run into it here in Texas.
I can't comment on geographical trends where that kind of attitude is concerned. The last time I encountered it was in Kentucky in 1994, and that was the experience that drove me away from gaming for more than 20 years. Aside from the fact that the DM tried to introduce my character to the party by having them rescue her from rape, within the first hour of the game *every one* of the players including the DM had suggested that I exchange sexual favors for magical gear, since my character was a level or two lower than theirs...
I didn't even finish the game, and never bothered to look for another group after that until my old college friend moved to the local area a few years ago and started DMing for his wife and me. If our little group fell apart, I don't know if I'd try to find another one or not.
You'll run into games where women aren't welcome, due to concious or unconcious decisions made by the guys playing. Some want a guys' night in sort of thing - which is fine, as long as they don't invite women. Going to a game I was invited to, and then being handed two characters the group made for me - one titled "The b*!@%" and the other "The Slut" - made it abundantly clear that I wasn't going to be welcome at the game. WTH did I get invited then? *shrug* You note such people, warn other women gamers in your area about them, and move on to groups where people aren't jerks.
Wow... that's... um... I have no words. Or at least, I have no words that would get through the filters here.
If you're not there to ogle someone, then don't ogle them. It's that simple. Why...Would it be counterproductive to the game if a guy showed up having obviously paid attention to his appearance-- suppose he was coming from a job interview where he wanted to make a good impression and was wearing a suit? Would that be 'distracting'? Would it be 'distracting' if it was hot and a guy wore a tank top at the gaming table? If the answers to those questions is 'no', then why would you apply a different standard to a woman at your gaming table? Why should it be any different for a woman to wear shorts and a tank top when it's hot than for a guy to do so? If the guy isn't inviting sexual advances by his clothing choices, then what makes it okay to assume a woman is?
Y'know, I enjoy looking at people I consider attractive (male and female) as much as the next person, and if they happen to be scantily clad, so much the better. But I don't assume that their manner of dress or my enjoyment of their attractiveness means they're intentionally displaying themselves for my titillation unless they tell me that's what they intend. I understand that my being attracted to someone isn't their responsibility. It's mine, and if I'm distracted by that attraction, that also is my responsibility rather than theirs. It's truly baffling to me when people ascribe responsibility for their attraction onto the object of that attraction rather than owning it for themselves.
Zeguma has a good point and I agree with her about this as well. Please don't get me wrong, i would like it if a female gamer would dress nicely for me, and I am sure many other guys feel the same way, but speaking for myself, I would find it distracting. Not to say this is right by any stretch, it just is. If I wore a tank top and speedos to your game, that would be saying 'please pay attention to me'. I would not do that to my fellow gamers, we are there to game, not to ogle each other.
If we were gaming at a table in RL, and you were dressed nicely, to be honest, I would probably stare a little too much, but that is all I would do, I hope you would not hold that against me. It would be like having an attractive coworker, in a way. Leering or agressively at someone is not acceptable if they say no. It comes down to respect, in any event.
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Previously:
Or perhaps in self-defense, as a way of making the point that the 'Cheesecake Calendar' idea that seems so popular amongst the guys here may just make things a tad uncomfortable for some women. Goodness knows I've attempted to make such points by using sarcasm like that, though it usually doesn't work.
More recently:
Zeguma has a good point and I agree with her about this as well. Please don't get me wrong, i would like it if a female gamer would dress nicely for me, and I am sure many other guys feel the same way, but speaking for myself, I would find it distracting. Not to say this is right by any stretch, it just is. If I wore a tank top and speedos to your game, that would be saying 'please pay attention to me'. I would not do that to my fellow gamers, we are there to game, not to ogle each other.
If you're not there to ogle someone, then don't ogle them. It's that simple. Why should what someone else is wearing have more control over what goes on in your head than you do?
Edited to add: More to the point, if you let what someone else is wearing distract you to the point that it interferes with what you're doing, why is it their problem and not yours?
These two positions seem at odds to me. Somehow me joining your game and wearing nothing but a banana hammock to every session wouldn't offend you (or at least if it did, it would be entirely your problem), but if I happened to bring along a fantasy art book that featured a girl wearing a chainmail bikini THAT would be distracting and offensive? Perhaps you taking offense to the Big Book of Golarion Cheese- (and Beef-) Cake is your own problem ?
Previously:
Or perhaps in self-defense, as a way of making the point that the 'Cheesecake Calendar' idea that seems so popular amongst the guys here may just make things a tad uncomfortable for some women. Goodness knows I've attempted to make such points by using sarcasm like that, though it usually doesn't work.
More recently:
These two positions seem at odds to me. Somehow me joining your game and wearing nothing but a banana hammock to every session wouldn't offend you (or at least if it did, it would be entirely your problem), but if I happened to bring along a fantasy art book that featured a girl wearing a chainmail bikini THAT would be distracting and offensive? Perhaps you taking offense to the Big Book of Golarion Cheese- (and Beef-) Cake is your own problem ?
Zeguma has a good point and I agree with her about this as well. Please don't get me wrong, i would like it if a female gamer would dress nicely for me, and I am sure many other guys feel the same way, but speaking for myself, I would find it distracting. Not to say this is right by any stretch, it just is. If I wore a tank top and speedos to your game, that would be saying 'please pay attention to me'. I would not do that to my fellow gamers, we are there to game, not to ogle each other.
If you're not there to ogle someone, then don't ogle them. It's that simple. Why should what someone else is wearing have more control over what goes on in your head than you do?
Edited to add: More to the point, if you let what someone else is wearing distract you to the point that it interferes with what you're doing, why is it their problem and not yours?
I don't see any conflict here. Nowhere have I said that people shouldn't enjoy erotic art of whatever variety. What I've said is that when said enjoyment causes people to behave disrespectfully toward others or to deliberately objectify those who happen to be like me (e.g. demanding that women dress in revealing clothing in order to participate in a game, or demanding that women be depicted in ways that emphasize their sexuality above all else), it makes for an uncomfortable environment for me to be in.
I've also said that I find a great deal of fantasy art depicting women to be hypersexualized and to encourage the mindset that women are there for decorative purposes rather than as active, heroic figures in their own right, and that mode of art doesn't much appeal to me, but that's a matter of my own personal taste.
I haven't asked anyone to stop enjoying anything. But I have said that my judgment about whether or not to participate in a community takes into account the way I'm treated as a person, and the way other women are treated. Is that somehow inappropriate, in your eyes?
I haven't asked anyone to stop enjoying anything. But I have said that my judgment about whether or not to participate in a community takes into account the way I'm treated as a person, and the way other women are treated. Is that somehow inappropriate, in your eyes?
Well, let's put it into perspective. Have you felt thus far in this community that you have been personally objectified? And second, what if some of the other women that are being "objectified" (for the lack of a better word) are not having an issue with it and actively trade in participation with it (i.e. not object to it)? Would that be an issue to you? I'm being a bit of a devil's advocate here, so bear with me.
With the exception of one (in)famous individual on here who doesn't mind it one bit (we all know who), I really don't see it here amongst the Paizo community that's blatantly toward another member of the community where it's downright uncomfortable or hostile. Maybe I'm reading the wrong threads? *shrugs*
Quid pro quo; if women want to talk about how much of a beefcake a certain man is, I don't have issues with it. Back when LotR was at its height, Viggo Mortensen was getting a lot of fangirl attention. Didn't bother me none.
Personally, I believe that hypersexualization occurs as a backlash to puritanical conservatism. If we had found the middle ground, it might be possible that some of the social misanthropies wouldn't be as much of an issue. Mind you, I'm conjecturing theoretically. I really don't know the answer. *shrug*
For the record, I have a Playboy subscription ... pretty much since I was eighteen. It was my mother that signed me up. I think it's pretty tasteful in comparison to .... Larry Flynt's Hustler. The former has a lot of articles and 'fluff' pieces that I enjoy reading every month whereas the latter .... it insults my intelligence.
Again, that's just me.
Why should what someone else is wearing have more control over what goes on in your head than you do?
So if someone attending a game decides to wear a swimsuit instead of regular clothes, you don't think that would be a distraction? Sure, the person has a right to wear that, but don't you think that in the context of the game, that choice of clothes--whether that person is attractive or hideous--is going to be a distraction? If Chris, Taylor, and myself are in a row on the same side of the table, I have to look past Taylor to talk to Chris, and if Taylor is dressed in a distracting manner, I can't help but see Taylor every time I want to talk to Chris. If Taylor is wearing a swimsuit (and nobody else is), then Taylor is being a distraction to the game, just as much as if Taylor had brought a toddler or kitten to the game, or was wearing a shirt with profanity on it, or had stinky gas. And this is whether Taylor is a man or is a woman.
So if someone attending a game decides to wear a swimsuit instead of regular clothes, you don't think that would be a distraction? Sure, the person has a right to wear that, but don't you think that in the context of the game, that choice of clothes--whether that person is attractive or hideous--is going to be a distraction? If Chris, Taylor, and myself are in a row on the same side of the table, I have to look past Taylor to talk to Chris, and if Taylor is dressed in a distracting manner, I can't help but see Taylor every time I want to talk to Chris. If Taylor is wearing a swimsuit (and nobody else is), then Taylor is being a distraction to the game, just as much as if Taylor had brought a toddler or kitten to the game, or was wearing a shirt with profanity on it, or had stinky gas. And this is whether Taylor is a man or is a woman.
I thought you were going to select this Taylor. Ya got me, SKR!
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You know, I honestly am growing kind of exhausted from posts and threads about "female gamers omg!" I've been a female gamer my entire life so I do not find it that amazing that there are female gamers around...as well as HAWT female gamers being around--I consider myself one of those *Smirk* j/k. It's kinda silly making a big deal out of this ALL-THE-TIME. Lame.
Gamers are gamers to me. :o) Being appreciative of a diverse gaming group is one thing but being ridiculous and wanting to argue about it is another...it's not a big deal so why make it one? I don't believe in having all-male gaming groups as well as not agreeing with all-female gaming groups...I like diversity (One of the things I love about Seattle!).
The whole "female gamer" aspect and the "distraction" aspect that I've barely skimmed about on this page (Not going to read all of it) basically just comes down to PERSONALITY not "female gamer distractions" in general.
Doesn't matter who the person is if they're an individual who craves attention and only wants to play to be the center of all the surrounding gamers' attention then that's because they're a dumb head...so avoid inviting dumb heads to your game and don't use gender as a reason to invite or avoid invitations.
If the girl gamer is entering into a group with guys who just simply cannot control themselves then she'll realize that and move on to a better group--if she's smart :o). I have had unfortunate run-ins in the past where I had to game with people that actually were people I did not trust or want to spend my time with! So, it happens! That's why I became obsessed with BGII.
To respond to Yucale's ORIGINAL post for this thread: They act like you're "weird" because you're in school--end of line. Anything you do is going to be "weird." Whether it's college, highschool, or JR High in a school setting you're always going to be weird if you're not doing what everyone else is doing...Shoot, you'll be in that scenario all through life--so I'd start realizing that what other people think isn't concerning and continue to be your rockin' self!!!
:o)
Jodi Out.
My point was that I've been deeply uncomfortable with the statements I've seen from male gamers (some on these boards, more elsewhere) that imply or outright say that the main reason they would welcome a woman at their gaming table is for the opportunity to ogle and sexually objectify her.
That has never been the case at any of the tables I have played at. If a guy did do it at my table and it meant to be a joke they would get a clip about the ears and if they meant for real it they would be booted from the table.
All of the guys I play with are more then happy to play with anybody.
When I was younger they were happy to have somebody that liked the things that they did and weren't going to beat the living shit out of them because they were nerds. Or worse if the bullying was coming from the female side ostracise, emasculate and destroy any confidence that they had in themselves (lasts longer than a bruise).
One would hope that attitude would be very uncommon these days, but I fear that it isn't.
So from a few bad experiences you project your attitude on to the rest of the male gaming community. I would find gaming with you very uncomfortable as I would be waiting for you to judge me.
Life isn't all black and white.
Men do not = Bad and women = good.
Why should what someone else is wearing have more control over what goes on in your head than you do?So if someone attending a game decides to wear a swimsuit instead of regular clothes, you don't think that would be a distraction? Sure, the person has a right to wear that, but don't you think that in the context of the game, that choice of clothes--whether that person is attractive or hideous--is going to be a distraction? If Chris, Taylor, and myself are in a row on the same side of the table, I have to look past Taylor to talk to Chris, and if Taylor is dressed in a distracting manner, I can't help but see Taylor every time I want to talk to Chris. If Taylor is wearing a swimsuit (and nobody else is), then Taylor is being a distraction to the game, just as much as if Taylor had brought a toddler or kitten to the game, or was wearing a shirt with profanity on it, or had stinky gas. And this is whether Taylor is a man or is a woman.
I'd notice it. I might think it odd, and I might comment on it to the point of asking if they were coming from the pool or going to the pool. But the bottom line is that what a person wears is really none of my business, and if I can't pay attention to the game because someone's appearance is distracting me, then the onus of fixing that distraction is on me, not them. Unless a person gives me some clear signal that my sexual advances are welcome, my attraction or lack thereof is irrelevant, and is my responsibility to deal with.
I recognize that this, apparently, a very atypical way to approach interacting with other people, but it works for me. And so far I haven't managed to completely alienate either my male or female friends-- even those that I find incredibly hot. ;)
That has never been the case at any of the tables I have played at. If a guy did do it at my table and it meant to be a joke they would get a clip about the ears and if they meant for real it they would be booted from the table.
My point was that I've been deeply uncomfortable with the statements I've seen from male gamers (some on these boards, more elsewhere) that imply or outright say that the main reason they would welcome a woman at their gaming table is for the opportunity to ogle and sexually objectify her.
Then you've had very different gaming experiences than I have. And I *have* witnessed men on these boards say they'd be happy to have a woman join their group if she wore revealing clothing. Not many, it's true, but enough-- and with enough supportive reaction from others in the community to make me think it's probably considered acceptable here. I also haven't witnessed a lot of tolerance when women express that such behavior makes them uncomfortable. So what inference am I supposed to draw from the fact that people make those kinds of statements here and get support and that when women object to such statements, we get flamed?
One would hope that attitude would be very uncommon these days, but I fear that it isn't.
So from a few bad experiences you project your attitude on to the rest of the male gaming community. I would find gaming with you very uncomfortable as I would be waiting for you to judge me.
Life isn't all black and white.
Men do not = Bad and women = good.
Saying that I fear an attitude may be more common than I'm comfortable with in this community is not the same thing as saying all men are bad and all women are good. Would you care to discuss what I *actually* said instead of the straw man you're building there?
edited to fix quotes
I haven't asked anyone to stop enjoying anything. But I have said that my judgment about whether or not to participate in a community takes into account the way I'm treated as a person, and the way other women are treated. Is that somehow inappropriate, in your eyes?Well, let's put it into perspective. Have you felt thus far in this community that you have been personally objectified? And second, what if some of the other women that are being "objectified" (for the lack of a better word) are not having an issue with it and actively trade in participation with it (i.e. not object to it)? Would that be an issue to you? I'm being a bit of a devil's advocate here, so bear with me.
With the exception of one (in)famous individual on here who doesn't mind it one bit (we all know who), I really don't see it here amongst the Paizo community that's blatantly toward another member of the community where it's downright uncomfortable or hostile. Maybe I'm reading the wrong threads? *shrugs*
I hardly claim to speak for all women. :) Hell, my own opinions on a lot of issues are a work in progress, and my mind changes all the time. And I have never claimed that these boards are horrible dens of sexist troglodytes, now, have I? What I've said is that I've seen enough threads of the "BOOBIES!! We want BOOOOOBBIES!!" variety, and enough dismissal of women who express discomfort with that kind of environment to make me hesitant about diving into the community here. I recognize that this is my discomfort, and certainly if the community finds that kind of behavior acceptable, then ultimately it's up to me to either deal with my discomfort or leave the community. But there's enough of value here, to me, that I thought it might be worth expressing some of that discomfort. Perhaps that was a unwise choice.
Quid pro quo; if women want to talk about how much of a beefcake a certain man is, I don't have issues with it. Back when LotR was at its height, Viggo Mortensen was getting a lot of fangirl attention. Didn't bother me none.
Personally, I believe that hypersexualization occurs as a backlash to puritanical conservatism. If we had found the middle ground, it might be possible that some of the social misanthropies wouldn't be as much of an issue. Mind you, I'm conjecturing theoretically. I really don't know the answer. *shrug*
For the record, I have a Playboy subscription ... pretty much since I was eighteen. It was my mother that signed me up. I think it's pretty tasteful in comparison to .... Larry Flynt's Hustler. The former has a lot of articles and 'fluff' pieces that I enjoy reading every month whereas the latter .... it insults my intelligence.
Again, that's just me.
I have no problem with anyone's personal taste in terms of what they want to read or look at. That's their business, as long as they're not insisting that I share their predilection. Which is part of the problem with the 'hypersexualization of women in fantasy art' topic. I understand that some people enjoy that kind of thing, and I understand that the main reason it's so prevalent is that it sells. But those of us who *don't* enjoy it, and who express a desire to see other kinds of art, are often accused of trying to censor art. Personally, I think there's room for a lot more diversity in fantasy art than I usually see. "Embrace the power of 'AND'" is one of my primary philosophies. ;)
If I wore a tank top and speedos to your game,I would point you in the direction of the mall to buy some pants. :P
And sadly, the women would agree with you, he he
"That has never been the case at any of the tables I have played at. If a guy did do it at my table and it meant to be a joke they would get a clip about the ears and if they meant for real it they would be booted from the table."
I read this....and then I read this...
"What I've said is that I've seen enough threads of the "BOOBIES!! We want BOOOOOBBIES!!"
And I can't help but think....Why is it a joke at your table but not one at ours?
If the threads with the flirting offends someone than don't read them. There are plenty of serious threads here.
As a female gamer I have yet to see and/or experience any objectivity. Yes the guys flirt, yes they talk about boobs, but hey, if you ask them to stop....they do. Especially the guys here.
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I hardly claim to speak for all women. :) Hell, my own opinions on a lot of issues are a work in progress, and my mind changes all the time. And I have never claimed that these boards are horrible dens of sexist troglodytes, now, have I? What I've said is that I've seen enough threads of the "BOOBIES!! We want BOOOOOBBIES!!" variety, and enough dismissal of women who express discomfort with that kind of environment to make me hesitant about diving into the community here. I recognize that this is my discomfort, and certainly if the community finds that kind of behavior acceptable, then ultimately it's up to me to either deal with my discomfort or leave the community. But there's enough of value here, to me, that I thought it might be worth expressing some of that discomfort. Perhaps that was a unwise choice.
After reading through the points that have been made in the discussion I just wonder if you are projecting negative experiences you have had with gamers in the past and now almost expect to find them everywhere there's a bunch of guys playing RPGs? You know I would feel kind of beat up if I'd had to put up the crap about sexual favors for magic items experience. That was deplorable.
But I can't help feeling that you are being a little hypersensitive to male gamers in general and to what people say. I would be horrified to think that I had, say, caused you unease in the way you say others have, and yet I would probably not have been aware of it, had I done so.
Now I'm not trying to single you out here, but there are a lot of females on this forum who have been posting a long time who have not had these same experiences here at Paizo, or if they have they haven't flagged it to everyone's attention.
I guess you're going to find offensive people on any Internet forums but very few here I would consider to be misogynists. In fact my gaming group boasts to female players and no-one gives a dern about their gender because we are all game enthusiasts and have grown up from the schoolboy snickering at boobies in mags behind the bike sheds crap.
You know, we guys are not all freaks, and most of us know that being respectful toward each other is the right thing regardless of gender. I kind of feel I would be scared of having you as a player in my game. I'd be worried about treading on eggshells and not be able to be myself, just because you seem so adamant on this topic. I'm almost afraid to talk to you, for fear of offending you, which I have probably already done.
I think most of us get what you are saying, and I happen to agree with many of your points, but please try to see us guys as individuals here.
;-)
Yeah, what he said, too. And you can flag posts as well...oh wait you already flagged me...ooopsie
Lindisty, I think Eric has these in mind:
(Copied from below the post box, before the submit button)
In order to keep our messageboards friendly and fun, here are some reminders about our policies:Also, spelled out here.
Do not use profanity or vulgar speech;
Do not make bigoted, hateful, or racially insensitive statements;
Do not defame, abuse, stalk, harass, or threaten others;
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Nope, I haven't. I've never flagged any post on these boards.
I'll note that 'sexist statements' aren't included in the list of unacceptable community behavior, so it would never have occurred to me to flag a post for that, no matter how I may feel about it personally. And so far as I know, this is the first interaction I've had with you, and you haven't yet been uncivil to me, I don't think. :)
Actually it is included in the list of things that the Paizo community finds unacceptable. There is a 'flag reason' for Offensive, Sexist, Racist.
Actually there is. There is a 'flag reason' for Offensive, Sexist, Racist.
So it was you behind it, he he
So it was you behind it, he he
Actually there is. There is a 'flag reason' for Offensive, Sexist, Racist.
lol, nah. I just remember it from our FawTl Thread's April fool's joke on the admin's. I flagged all of Gary's posts as sexist. :D
lol, nah. I just remember it from our FawTl Thread's April fool's joke on the admin's. I flagged all of Gary's posts as sexist. :DSo it was you behind it, he he
Actually there is. There is a 'flag reason' for Offensive, Sexist, Racist.
He he, I noticed that, think i actually flagged a few of his posts, ha ha
I hardly claim to speak for all women. :) Hell, my own opinions on a lot of issues are a work in progress, and my mind changes all the time. And I have never claimed that these boards are horrible dens of sexist troglodytes, now, have I? What I've said is that I've seen enough threads of the "BOOBIES!! We want BOOOOOBBIES!!" variety, and enough dismissal of women who express discomfort with that kind of environment to make me hesitant about diving into the community here. I recognize that this is my discomfort, and certainly if the community finds that kind of behavior acceptable, then ultimately it's up to me to either deal with my discomfort or leave the community. But there's enough of value here, to me, that I thought it might be worth expressing some of that discomfort. Perhaps that was a unwise choice.After reading through the points that have been made in the discussion I just wonder if you are projecting negative experiences you have had with gamers in the past and now almost expect to find them everywhere there's a bunch of guys playing RPGs? You know I would feel kind of beat up if I'd had to put up the crap about sexual favors for magic items experience. That was deplorable.
But I can't help feeling that you are being a little hypersensitive to male gamers in general and to what people say. I would be horrified to think that I had, say, caused you unease in the way you say others have, and yet I would probably not have been aware of it, had I done so.
Now I'm not trying to single you out here, but there are a lot of females on this forum who have been posting a long time who have not had these same experiences here at Paizo, or if they have they haven't flagged it to everyone's attention.
I guess you're going to find offensive people on any Internet forums but very few here I would consider to be misogynists. In fact my gaming group boasts to female players and no-one gives a dern about their gender because we are all game enthusiasts and have grown up...
I haven't been here long....a year or so. But I have had nothing but great experiences. The people here are the most caring and sympathetic friends a person could find. It is within these threads that we have turned to each other when we have lost jobs, marriages, friends, and loved ones. I have seen the people here react to that with the most sincere kindness I have ever seen. Buying subs for those down on their luck, getting together and pooling cash for those who need it, giving out home phone numbers to those who are distressed. We celebrate together, my own husband was up all night when one of the guys here was due to become a daddy any minute. He checked in all night until he knew everything was ok.
I take offense that someone who hasn't posted here, only lurks, would say such things in such a broad sense. When you refuse to become part of something you can not claim to know it. If you see postings such as 'Boooobies" you may be offended. But if you were part of the group that uses that phrase than you would know that it is a joke between close friends who took the time to become familiar and intimate with one another. Friends that don't deserve to be painted with such a broad brush. The Paizo community boards are a home, family.
Our group on Friday nights has me (the female GM) and 5 dudes. On Saturday I don't GM, but we have 5 dudes to 2 females.
We all get along, typical comments and jokes are made almost every time (two consider themselves dirty old men... in reality they are some of the nicest people I know).
I can't imagine playing in an all girl group...
I collect comic books, action figures and love Pathfinder's RPG- proudly I am a geek.
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Hey, Leaf! When I first saw your post, I thought you were an alias of Mairkurion (however it's spelled). But you're not. Obviously.
I dunno if I agree with you about playing in an all-women group. I've never had the opportunity to do that, but I think it would be fun! I'm sure it wouldn't be very different from playing in an all-guy (except for me) group, which I've also done. After all, it is the same game. And most of the time what's going on? "Roll your attack" (Rolls) "You hit! Now roll your damage."
See, not so different. I think the biggest differenced would be the choice of beverage: Khalua vs. Stella.
Also: Yes! I DO exist! (I like saying that...it makes me feel like Santa Clause in the M&M commercial).
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I take offense that someone who hasn't posted here, only lurks, would say such things in such a broad sense. When you refuse to become part of something you can not claim to know it. If you see postings such as 'Boooobies" you may be offended. But if you were part of the group that uses that phrase than you would know that it is a joke between close friends who took the time to become familiar and intimate with one another. Friends that don't deserve to be painted with such a broad brush. The Paizo community boards are a home, family.
I'm trying to work out whether you were aiming this at me or to people in general who use the word above. I didn't use it nor never would because it's infantile. I was asking an objective question about an observation.
Sure, I am new to this forum (been here a couple months) and just finding my way around so to speak. I really don't know which way to take your comments if they were aimed at me, because I have not condoned bad behavior by some male gamers in the RPG community.
Are these forums a special club where you have to have been here since the beginning, or can anybody play? Just wondered because, well, way to make me feel included! This the very issue we were discussing, and for the record I do not lurk. My full name is in my profile and a short account about myself.
If you didn't aim this at me then forgive my misunderstanding you... Mark
I take offense that someone who hasn't posted here, only lurks, would say such things in such a broad sense. When you refuse to become part of something you can not claim to know it. If you see postings such as 'Boooobies" you may be offended. But if you were part of the group that uses that phrase than you would know that it is a joke between close friends who took the time to become familiar and intimate with one another. Friends that don't deserve to be painted with such a broad brush. The Paizo community boards are a home, family.I'm trying to work out whether you were aiming this at me or to people in general who use the word above. I didn't use it nor never would because it's infantile. I was asking an objective question about an observation.
Sure, I am new to this forum (been here a couple months) and just finding my way around so to speak. I really don't know which way to take your comments if they were aimed at me, because I have not condoned bad behavior by some male gamers in the RPG community.
Are these forums a special club where you have to have been here since the beginning, or can anybody play? Just wondered because, well, way to make me feel included! This the very issue we were discussing, and for the record I do not lurk. My full name is in my profile and a short account about myself.
If you didn't aim this at me then forgive my misunderstanding you... Mark
Nope...wasn't aimed at you at all hun. I stick to the OTD threads. The FawTl Towers is my most common home. You are welcome to join us. As long as you follow the rules. No Politics, No religion, and no Sports. :D
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Nope...wasn't aimed at you at all hun. I stick to the OTD threads. The FawTl Towers is my most common home. You are welcome to join us. As long as you follow the rules. No Politics, No religion, and no Sports. :D
Thank goodness, you had me worried there ;) Is FAWLTY Towers anything to do with that 70's TV show with John CLeese? I can understand the politics and religion, but why sports? Just curious.
Thank goodness, you had me worried there ;) Is FAWLTY Towers anything to do with that 70's TV show with John CLeese? I can understand the politics and religion, but why sports? Just curious.
Nope...wasn't aimed at you at all hun. I stick to the OTD threads. The FawTl Towers is my most common home. You are welcome to join us. As long as you follow the rules. No Politics, No religion, and no Sports. :D
Other than the name our thread has nothing to do with the show. LOL, as for the sports rule....well thats my rule. I hate sports. ;)
I have the opposite problem. All I have are female gamers. My wife, her 2 friends and my sister.
And sadly, the women would agree with you.
BA-ZING! Thank YOU, Eric!
So, Solnes told me this was the new fun thread.
Thank goodness, you had me worried there ;) Is FAWLTY Towers anything to do with that 70's TV show with John CLeese? I can understand the politics and religion, but why sports? Just curious.
Nope...wasn't aimed at you at all hun. I stick to the OTD threads. The FawTl Towers is my most common home. You are welcome to join us. As long as you follow the rules. No Politics, No religion, and no Sports. :D
Hey you can talk sports all you, she is just kidding about that, rigth hun...hun..uhh..what are you doing with that...ow owowowow!!
Thank goodness, you had me worried there ;) Is FAWLTY Towers anything to do with that 70's TV show with John CLeese? I can understand the politics and religion, but why sports? Just curious.
Nope...wasn't aimed at you at all hun. I stick to the OTD threads. The FawTl Towers is my most common home. You are welcome to join us. As long as you follow the rules. No Politics, No religion, and no Sports. :D
Whenever you see someone type FAWLTY instead of FAWTLY, Imperator, it's just a mispelling by attraction. A funny one, but a mispelling none the less. Forums Are Way Too Long is the origin of our hallowed name. Of course, origin and meaning are two different things.
So, is it okay for me to say LEGS in this thread? Not that I dislike the upper female torso or fail to appreciate its charms, but LEGS! I'm so confused.